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2004-12-04 Fifth Column

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Posted by ed 2004-12-04 3:42:48 PM|| || Front Page|| [11139 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Just think, twenty years ago he would have joined the Moonies or the Krishnas.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2004-12-04 12:19:43 AM|| 2004-12-04 12:19:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Or the Grateful Dead tour.

Posted by Seafarious 2004-12-04 12:22:44 AM|| 2004-12-04 12:22:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, taught us everything up to how to go to the bathroom.
You mean up till Big Mo showed up, they weren't potty trained in the Arabian Peninsula?
Eeeeeeeewww!

Posted by Desert Blondie 2004-12-04 12:31:28 AM|| 2004-12-04 12:31:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 That we can have people so clueless on how to live in the US is astounding, simply astounding

Posted by FlameBait 2004-12-04 1:32:23 AM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2004-12-04 1:32:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 yo charlie--don't forget to use three pebbles when you wipe your ass with your left hand like da profit sez--friggin' looslims

Posted by SON OF TOLUI 2004-12-04 2:15:45 AM|| 2004-12-04 2:15:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 That we can have people so clueless on how to live in the US is astounding, simply astounding.

I attended law school with hundreds of 'em ....

Posted by AzCat 2004-12-04 5:56:00 AM|| 2004-12-04 5:56:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Substitue "the Prophet taught us" with "the Prophet PROGRAMED us"

Posted by Cheaderhead 2004-12-04 6:04:34 AM|| 2004-12-04 6:04:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Hows about: The profit lost us?

Posted by badanov 2004-12-04 6:11:33 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org/title-boris.gif] 2004-12-04 6:11:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Or: The prophet profited from us.

Posted by Bryan 2004-12-04 6:13:46 AM|| 2004-12-04 6:13:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 why a non-Muslim would first choose to convert to a religion increasingly associated with dictatorial governments, mass terrorism, videotaped beheadings and the oppression of women. One reason might be disillusionment with wall-to-wall entertainment, jaded sexuality, spiritual anomie and all the other ailments of the materialistic West. Another might be protest.

maybe now he can rationalize his urges to beat women?

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-04 8:49:43 AM|| 2004-12-04 8:49:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 AC Were you referring to the faculty, students or both?

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-12-04 8:57:35 AM|| 2004-12-04 8:57:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 I'm pretty sure converting to Islam is a prerequesite for driving a cab in New York. I also believe driving a cab in New York gives him the prestigious title of "Muslim scholar".

Posted by tu3031 2004-12-04 9:13:53 AM|| 2004-12-04 9:13:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 "the Prophet PROGRAMED us"

Time for a system reboot.

Posted by Darth VAda 2004-12-04 10:12:06 AM|| 2004-12-04 10:12:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 He was one of the suckers the Firesign Theater was talking about with their "I think I'll find a bunch of guys who dress alike and follow them around..." line regards what to do after High School.

The relevant thing is that people like this are actually common... They lack enough "connections" (ala James Burke, heh) and internalized values to deal with the myriad choices and passing opportunities, which most of us laugh off. DB & Sea nailed him immediately.

There is a surprisingly large pool of fodder for the various "ideologies" and "causes" to draw upon... Consider the LLL and the spectrum of toolfools who fall for the cause du jour. Most grow out of it when it fails to reward their trust and faith. In a country with such freedom and a huge menu of blindly ballyhooed lifestyles, people can and do stay adrift for a loooong time - until something sticks. With just a few more connections to rational courses of action, a few more internalized values, most are steered back toward the mainstream - which is why it's the mainstrean, heh. Without them, well...

Islam, the bottom-feeder of the disaffected, dysfunctional, disgruntled, and disarmed.

Posted by .com 2004-12-04 12:03:12 PM|| 2004-12-04 12:03:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 "Islam is a way of life. The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, taught us everything up to how to go to the bathroom. Even when you go to the bathroom, how to go in, how to go out, how to sit, how to wash, how to take a shower. [He taught us] how to eat, how to start your food, how to treat your wife, how to treat your children, how to wake up in the morning, how to put your slippers on, how to put clothes on, how to take clothes off, what to eat, what not to eat .
And we have parents who are afraid to give thier children direction.

Posted by plainslow 2004-12-04 12:18:35 PM|| 2004-12-04 12:18:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 All of the above and more Mrs. D.

Posted by AzCat 2004-12-04 1:02:10 PM|| 2004-12-04 1:02:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 So, nobody caught the big red warning flag regarding this guy's trainwreck-of-a-personal-life?

Like a lot of people who convert to Islam or any other religion, he did so after a particularly difficult period in his life in which he not only lost his "way" but also his job and his apartment, and, after a fight outside a nightclub, came close to losing an eye as well.

When someone of actual intelligence and rational personal philosophy voluntarily adopts Islam I'll begin to think about it. This chump was just another space cadet who was so open minded that his brain fell out.

"Isn't it funny how so many people find God only after they have painted themselves into a moral corner and made life a living hell for those around them. Nobody finds Jesus on prom night."

- Dennis Miller -

Morons who only find religion in the midst of ruining their lives (and usually everyone else's around them) count for zilch when it comes to genuine conversions. That goes for George W. Bush and everybody else on down. While finding religion may serve their own ends well enough, the sort of witness they tend to bear for their faith usually remains of the most dubious sort.

Posted by Zenster 2004-12-04 2:29:04 PM|| 2004-12-04 2:29:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Zen - You are truly one skeered SOB on the topic of religion. What is it, what event - because this is obviously very personal - gave you such a skewed vision of anyone who has some sort of faith?

Look - all of the things you post in favor of on RB, sans Gay Marriage / DOMA (a topic in which your reason deserts you), are articles of faith in serious Christian religion - 31 flavors of 'em. They eschew the stupidity, trendy relativism, and morally-frightened foolishness and call a spade a spade. They're not your enemy, but your ally in the important things: values based upon millenia of trial and error, self-regulating behavior models, good and evil - with annotations and reasoning, etc. I gut-check 'em when they fall back to "God did it so it can't be questioned!" BS, too. You don't get that here on RB - you get smart reasoned comments by committed people. Something to honor and respect - certainly in a world gone mad on relativism and weenieism.

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm an atheist who simply recognizes that much of what's missing in the current West is common sense - and that is / was a product of non-PC nuclear families who had a goddamned bona-fide value system (90% of which I agree with) and who practiced what they preached (about 90% of the time) - creating and nurturing the core of Jacksonianism, which defends our way of life from insane people. You get so much right - how can you be so uber-sensitive that you go blind and get this part wrong?

By a huge margin, the Christian religion is a positive influence in the US. You're shooting all the dogs because some of them have fleas, it seems. Now I've gotta make a pilgrimmage to one of my religious sites, CompUSA. I'll be back later to see what you think, but it's time to get real on this topic and un-bend whatever got bent somewhere back in your past. You're too valuable an observer to lose to that painful event. Hey, I'll kneecap whomever it was - just let me know who and where, bro.

Posted by .com 2004-12-04 2:52:39 PM|| 2004-12-04 2:52:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 I'd add to .com's comment that most people need a belief system. It's too hard for most people to work it out from scratch and too disruptive for society. Too many people end up in wacky places where trashing McDonalds or blowing up trains makes sense. I'm an atheist, but when I look around and ask myself what belief system seems to work for most people, I conclude Christianity (most flavors) does and specifically it does a much better job than tranzi PC greenie leftism.

Posted by phil_b 2004-12-04 3:22:39 PM|| 2004-12-04 3:22:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Zen - You are truly one skeered SOB on the topic of religion. What is it, what event - because this is obviously very personal - gave you such a skewed vision of anyone who has some sort of faith?

Not scared, .com, just completely fed up with blind faith and so much of the moral hypocrisy which accompanies it. Possibly, you may have missed where I previously posted about how I have had the privilege of meeting some truly enlightened Christians who thought independently and acted rationally upon their faith. I found much to admire in them, as I do in others from many faiths.

Look - all of the things you post in favor of on RB, sans Gay Marriage / DOMA (a topic in which your reason deserts you), are articles of faith in serious Christian religion - 31 flavors of 'em.

Far too many Republicans in America seem to have abandoned some of conservatism's core values, one major tenet of which is; Minimal intrusion by government into a citizen's private life. However much you or anyone else might be revolted by gay marriage, the Office of Faith Based Giving and DOMA represents nothing less than the government sticking its nose where it most certainly doesn't belong. In my mind, Mrs. Davis gets it and Ptah gets it too.

How is it that Judeo-Christianity has any sort of lock on rationality or ethics? Lucid and logical judgement was around long before Christ's advent in this world or the conceptualization of Yaweh, for that matter. Yes, Judeo-Christianity's vision of the social contract, in particular - parts of Mosaic Law, carry forward core values that seem to function rather well. Does anyone honestly think that much of this same mentality was not in practice around the world for millennia prior to its Biblical documentation?

They eschew the stupidity, trendy relativism, and morally-frightened foolishness and call a spade a spade. They're not your enemy, but your ally in the important things: values based upon millenia of trial and error, self-regulating behavior models, good and evil - with annotations and reasoning, etc. I gut-check 'em when they fall back to "God did it so it can't be questioned!" BS, too.

Where have I declared that the ones who "eschew the stupidity, trendy relativism, and morally-frightened foolishness and call a spade a spade" are my enemy? It's when members of the flock start acting like actual sheep that the alarm klaxons go off. Seeing bumperstickers which read; "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" is what makes me begin to worry.

Notice how that disturbing phrase could be attributed to a (typically fundamentalist) person of almost any faith? Quite simply, way too much killing has happened and continues to happen in the "name of God." When the individual religions get over their separate notions of spiritual supremacy, one and all, only then will I not be quite so concerned about these issues. I look for leadership by example, not a bunch of brainwashed yahoos (of any stripe) telling me how they've found the end-all and be-all solution to human existence.

You don't get that here on RB - you get smart reasoned comments by committed people. Something to honor and respect - certainly in a world gone mad on relativism and weenieism.

In the majority, yes. Although there are also some pretty rabid wingnuts around here, by and large, Rantburg contains a lot more of the lucid mentalities I seek out in this world (especially on the topic of international terrorism).

You get so much right - how can you be so uber-sensitive that you go blind and get this part wrong? By a huge margin, the Christian religion is a positive influence in the US.

I'm not blind about it, I just tend to remain skeptical of those who are so willing to condemn people they have not even taken the time to understand. Mind you, I'm not preaching any of this sort of "moral relativism" mindrot. Some things are black & white, there is such a thing as right and wrong. Take rape. When is it ever valid? Same goes for sexual child abuse, unaggravated or mass murder and numerous other acts. What you cite as a "positive influence" by a "huge margin" has brought along with it some very damaging puritanical and outdated social mores. As Mohandas Gandhi said, "If more of you Christians were like your Christ, all of India would be Christian by now."

You're shooting all the dogs because some of them have fleas, it seems.

You could not be more wrong. I will defend freedom of religion to the death. Along with that theological freedom must come freedom from religion. If the religious component of American society refuses to comprehend such a concept, they sterilize much that is of worth in their own spiritual message.

You're too valuable an observer to lose to that painful event. Hey, I'll kneecap whomever it was - just let me know who and where, bro.

If I were shooting all dogs in the name of pest control, you would have long ago heard about the many Christians who have ripped me off, comitted violence against me and other such trespasses. I'm not here to whine about poor witnesses.

Instead, I'll thank you for the support, .com. From someone of your own nature, I will hold such approbation in esteem, not that anybody's explicit approval plays a pivotal role in my life. It makes me glad that we've been able to progress well past the acrimony that our earlier interactions were so fraught with. I'll probably be accused of derailing this thread with my own personal agenda because of such a lengthy reply, but you've asked some truly pertinent questions. These topics directly relate to why I so detest Islamist theocracy (not to mention theocracy in general) and am quite willing to kill such totalitarian mentalities without awarding them a shred of moral relativism.

Posted by Zenster 2004-12-04 4:11:23 PM|| 2004-12-04 4:11:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Zenster, I still can make up my mind whether you are a fraud or just prone to confused verbosity.

Posted by phil_b 2004-12-04 4:20:50 PM|| 2004-12-04 4:20:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Zenster, I still can make up my mind whether you are a fraud or just prone to confused verbosity.

Boy howdy. Your propensity for indecision is sure going to keep me laying awake during the long winter nights.

Posted by Zenster 2004-12-04 4:32:52 PM|| 2004-12-04 4:32:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Interesting thread. However, I would caution all you atheists to be aware that not all God-seekers have a belief system. There is an old man for whom religion is a purely empirical matter. He is very quiet, harmless, and is seldom seen or heard from unless you seek him out west of the river.

Posted by mystic 2004-12-04 6:54:15 PM|| 2004-12-04 6:54:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 There is an old man for whom religion is a purely empirical matter. He is very quiet, harmless, and is seldom seen or heard from unless you seek him out west of the river.

Well, that really clears things up.

Posted by Zenster 2004-12-04 7:15:19 PM|| 2004-12-04 7:15:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 I know that man - he's a cynic

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-04 8:24:50 PM|| 2004-12-04 8:24:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Zen - Wow! You wrote a tome! This will probably be another... I'm back from Geek Heaven, installed my big bag of goodies and I'm back online with power to burn.

Okay - I won't bug you again about it - unless you get shrill, heh, but I still submit that the dangers you describe are exaggerated, especially relative to the social benefits. Much like Howard Hughes and his Mormons - there are significant values and ethics imparted to people who were raised in homes where certain mores are SOP.

I have no doubt we actually want almost the same thing - sensible tolerance anchored in pragmatic practices. My opinion regards homosexuality is rather simple: it's a genetic box canyon and 2 generations of all who feel they are gay forgoing heterosexual unions would prove it, no? I believe it's obviously a "lifestyle" choice - driven by the internal compulsion "felt" by the individual. Fine. It should receive all of the benefits and advantages offered to any "lifestyle" choice - no more, no less. I could be a disingenuous ass and say I have all these gay friends, but the fact is that I don't, anymore. Once I went overseas those acquaintances fell away... and what I witnessed first-hand, and became aware of second-hand in Arabia rather put me off the topic, if you know what I mean. If you don't, bluntly put, Arabia is overrun by homosexual behavior. The reasons are there in Islam, and everyone knows the practice is rampant, yet it is supposedly unacceptable. Yeah, right. When you're walking down the corridor of a major hotel and turn a corner to see two guys getting it on - on a couch in an alcove - well, it just loses a bit of its social elan. Okay, enough.

I have no substantive qualms with the Christians or the Buddhists - if practiced as written, they are (mostly) constructive and beneficial, though I would not chose to practice either. My knowledge of the Jews is still miniscule, although I've been reading. The Hindus - all I know is a faint memory of reading the Upanishads and The 10,000 Arms of Milarippa (or something like that) about 35 yrs ago - i.e. next to nothing. I know more about Islam than I care to - and it is the only one which I would rather see eradicated as the pathogen I believe it to be.

We may be fighting (or, at least, voting) side by side someday on the question of eradicating it. I welcome your support for the preservation of Freedom - and let Islam suffer whatever fate it deserves.

Posted by .com 2004-12-04 10:25:47 PM|| 2004-12-04 10:25:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 What Zen said.

Got nothing against religion here, or religious faith. Understand and approve totally of the notion of educating one's children with an eye toward their spiritual formation. But I do have a real problem with a couple of religious sects, however, obviously the mooselimbs but also a few protestant sects in this country that somehow think it appropriate and necessary to push their particular reading of nature and man and god through the US public schools rather than setting up their own schools for that purpose, as Catholics and Orthodox jews do. And note that Catholics constitute a significantly higher share of US population-- and in the big cities, a far higher share-- than the biblical literalist protestants.

And why the extraordinary emphasis on evolutionary biology? If the goal is to present minority scientific views, then why not also demand that textbooks have warning stickers advising that Einsteinian physics has its critics? Why not highlight alternative views on quarks or neuroscience or personality development or photosynthesis or string theory?

What dispensation is it that entitles this particular sect to impose its particular reading of this particular scientific theory on my kids?

Posted by lex 2004-12-04 10:39:30 PM|| 2004-12-04 10:39:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 I say we take off and nuke them from orbit.

Posted by FlameBait 2004-12-04 10:45:52 PM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2004-12-04 10:45:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 I say we take off and nuke them from orbit.

Only after America has finished with the terraforming of Mars.

We may be fighting (or, at least, voting) side by side someday on the question of eradicating it. I welcome your support for the preservation of Freedom - and let Islam suffer whatever fate it deserves.

If it comes down to a fight, I'd be right pleased to be in the same squad with you, .com. Above all, you have been utterly consistent (however abrasive - a particular quality which I am completely unknown for), and that is something I can respect.

When I was a teenager, I frequently mentioned how it was easier to deal with rednecks because at least you knew where they stood on matters. Since that time, I have come to appreciate consistency all the more. When it is accompanied by rationality the results can be, not just breath taking, but among the most productive that humanity is capable of.

I believe that, more than anything, it is America's plurality that has built its greatness. As I mentioned in another thread, it is precisely this healthy diversity that has driven our country to make more progress in barely two centuries than any other nation or culture has in so many millennia of human existence.

I cannot imagine any more fitting explanation for America's status as the world's sole superpower.

Posted by Zenster 2004-12-04 11:34:36 PM|| 2004-12-04 11:34:36 PM|| Front Page Top

23:56 RWV
23:54 Phitle Craviter4997
23:41 Don
23:34 Zenster
23:34 Mufti Desai Knows All
23:29 FlameBait
23:26 Robert Crawford
23:25 Robert Crawford
23:23 ed
23:19 ed
23:15 lex
23:10 Barbara Skolaut
23:08 Phil Fraering
23:06 ed
23:01 Zenster
22:59 ed
22:57 Aris Katsaris
22:50 2b
22:49 Tom
22:46 Korora
22:45 FlameBait
22:40 .com
22:39 lex
22:39 ed