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2007-12-07 Olde Tyme Religion

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Posted by ryuge 2007-12-07 00:48|| || Front Page|| [11124 views ] Top

#1 well i'm quite disagree with you the way you have presented your case and it help me understand that why we do have such problems in this world? coz people like you with a limited knowledge and desire to gain popularty always play mischif with things like this, let me make it clear for your understanding the verse you have mention from the Koran 24:2 make me buy 2 doller whole Koran after this i realize why we have this problem, you see if you are a chirstian and if i tell you that the bible says as stone the person to death for the they commited fornication or i say that bible teaches the christians to kill the infant babies and kill people from behind you wana know where is says ?here are few of them which i come across:- punishment for children?: detornomy ch21:v8-21
God and mosess advice to kill everything but keep vergins for your self? numbers 31:17-18&35-40
detornomy: 20:16 joshwa 6:21 and 10:28,

well here i'm giveing you atleast the full discription but what you have presented is a deseption, and its forbidden by all means of moral values, why you hold up the full verse? to prove your point ? how devilish? its in humen and immoral if you have some morals. any how what i sujest you is that when ever you read and place something front of people kindly cheak it up, you talking about the punishment let me open your little brain little wider, do you know the rape rate in most democratic and highly civelised country i suppose (USA) sisty case of rape is REPORTED every hour! every hour? yes read the FBI report 1992. wow real bold at the same time you know how many rapes take place in saudi arabia ????????? guss if you can ???? come on try reported cases try ok unreported cases ???/ one and single one in this year of 2007 if you cheak the crime list countrys in the world saudi arabia is no whare to be seen! any how thats not my argument here my argument is why we face certun problems in our socites b'coz we all wants to get some popularity no matter what it may cost brother this is internet where millions of them reading it you are indirectly fuleing there belives hence the anger has to come out how and where if its not you may be it your nighbour who have to pay for your spred miss information. thats all i hope you understand and please dont follow you holly media like BBC or CNN or what ever but cheak it up by your self as i got to pay for 5$ koran.
thanks.

Posted by drdeer">drdeer 2007-12-07 06:34|| 2007-12-07 06:34|| Front Page Top

#2 We've got a new troll.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2007-12-07 07:07|| 2007-12-07 07:07|| Front Page Top

#3 ... and a damned longwinded and incoherant one, too.

Posted by Sgt. Mom 2007-12-07 07:31|| http://www.celiahayes.com]">[http://www.celiahayes.com] 2007-12-07 07:31|| Front Page Top

#4 True, but maybe 6 weeks in the RantBurg Troll Academy will bring it up to snuff.

Posted by Thomas Woof 2007-12-07 07:45|| 2007-12-07 07:45|| Front Page Top

#5 Fresh troll meat. Hmmmmmm.

Posted by MarkZ 2007-12-07 08:04|| 2007-12-07 08:04|| Front Page Top

#6 Hirsi actually pulled her punch for the NYTimes; she actually believes (or at least said so once) that the only way to cure Islam is to nuke Mecca (although I don't think she has put that in writing yet).

Our troll's comments are actually about the same comments that the most sophisticated Islamic apologists use (although with the spelling and grammer cleaned up grammer, etc.)

Posted by mhw">mhw 2007-12-07 08:45|| http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/]">[http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/] 2007-12-07 08:45|| Front Page Top

#7 drdeer:

You cite ancient verses - but you deliberately turn an eye away from what is currently being done.

You cite date rape - but you ignore the fact that the religious and civic leaders here regard that as a crime.

You ignore the fact that in Saudi Arabia a woman is being flogged to death because she was raped.

You ignore the fact that in Iran muslims stone a 16 year old girl to death because she defended herself against attack by a man.

You ignore the many "honor" killings by fathers, brothers, uncles of young women.

I say: a man whose 'honor' is so fragile is no man at all. He is not even a child, for children can learn and should be taught.

He is a perverted animal, filthy and mad. Fit only to be killed quickly so that civilized and honorable people can live in peace.

I spit in the face of such "men" and of their "justice".

Posted by lotp 2007-12-07 08:46|| 2007-12-07 08:46|| Front Page Top

#8 Actually there were a few moderate Muslim reactions to the teddy bear nonsense, but I didn't see any in the news about the other incidents.

You won't get far with your Bible argument with Christians, drdeer, unless you can cite some New Testament passages. And offhand I can't think of any that would support your argument. But I can think of a few that would nullify it.

Posted by Darrell 2007-12-07 08:55|| 2007-12-07 08:55|| Front Page Top

#9 A couple years ago a seven years old Irani girl was beheaded by her father for suspected rape by her uncle (BTW, and it seems to be a pattern into those "honor defenders" the guy didn't touch a hair of the raper).

THe judge released him. He released him because according to Shariah, it was up to the father to seek punishment for crimes against the children. Shariah, the law dictated by God through Muhammad without a single comma changed.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-12-07 09:03|| 2007-12-07 09:03|| Front Page Top

#10 By the way, drdeer comes to us via Saudi Arabia.

Posted by lotp 2007-12-07 09:04|| 2007-12-07 09:04|| Front Page Top

#11 Nice rant, lotp. That a brother could kill his sister for offending the family honor is to me one of the most appalling things about Islam. And there is a lot there to be appalled about!

Posted by SteveS 2007-12-07 09:20|| 2007-12-07 09:20|| Front Page Top

#12 Islam needs a "Protestant Reformation".

The Mulsims do have moderate sects (like the Sufi) but they are eclipsed by the radical Shia and Wahabbists/Salafists that have grabbed political power. And it traces back to oil money in Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Until we defund and/or decapitate the governments and leaders who distribute the money and support to the radicals, the Moderates voices will never be heard.

Islam must come to terms with "An eye for an eye" and embrace allegory, and focus internally on spirituality and the individual, as have Judaism and Christianity.

Time for Islam to grow up, or die.

If it fails to come to terms with the modern world, Islam will force its own destruction sooner or later. The more violent radical Islamo-fascism becomes, the more likely the horror of a death of its holy places and followers in superheated radioactive nuclear plasma.

But there is hope, there are moderate sects of Islam that are growing. To quote someone who knows the history of Islam, Most Muslims who devoted their major efforts to developing the spiritual dimensions of the human person came to be known as Sufis. The Sufi traditions provide a path out for Islam.. Sufi-ism is growing in Iran, and is a threat to the mullahs there with the emphasis on spiritual instead of temporal and wordly power. the Mullahs in Iran are crackign down on it because it is such an immediate threat to the radical Shia version of Islam they control.

Islam needs to become more concerned with perfecting the spirit than controlling the government. Wahabbism and Salafism are aberrations and distortions that shoudl be chased out of existence. If Islam does not drive out the worldliness, the worldliness will destroy it as it almost did Christianity.

The difference now is that Christianity had a reformation that strengthened the Catholic Church and the Christian faith by allowing for peaceful diversity of Christian beleif (the protestants) and removing worldly power from the Catholic Church (no army or ruling power for clergy) forcing it to focus on spirituality. The Reformation is now seen as vital and good by Cathoics and Protestants alike, and was a key event in saving the West.

The oproblem is that Islam has become so violent and captive to totalitairans, that it will force military action against it.

The Ibadis ,Druze, the Yadzis, and the Imamates all provide paths away from destruction fo Islam yet remain true to the core beleifs required of a follower of the God of Abraham.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-12-07 09:27|| 2007-12-07 09:27|| Front Page Top

#13 Much of the baggage is not Islam, but is adapted tribal practces of the Bedouin and other morally primitive Saudis, like the Wahabbists.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-12-07 09:29|| 2007-12-07 09:29|| Front Page Top

#14 So, Drdeer, there is a choice for you and other Mulsims.

Do you bow to the authoritarians who demand tribal behavior in the name of God, or do you have the courage to stand up and believe in God the Merciful and Almighty, and the fact that He has given us reason, and we MUST use his gift of reason in our faith - and INTERPRET the scriptures in modern terms?

Do you have the courage to turn your faith toward perfecting your relationship to God instead of forcing it on others, or killing those who disagree with you how to do so?

Do you have the courage to draw closer to God and force out those who entangle Him in the world to the detriment of His Creations, including us humans?

Its a question we Christians faced centuries ago.

Time for you to answer. If you and other Mulsims continue to support the path to violence the Wahabbists and radical Shia have chosen, sooner or later Mecca will be destroyed in nuclear fire, and Mulsims slauightered in the tens of millions.

YOU Chose. And you chose by your actions. If you choose not to act, these days that is the same as backing the radicals that will force your detruction.

Think about it.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-12-07 09:37|| 2007-12-07 09:37|| Front Page Top

#15 ...sooner or later Mecca will be destroyed in nuclear fire, and Muslims slaughtered in the tens of millions.

Which, BTW, is why we are trying to make Iraq a working democratic, but Islamic nation. It is my belief, as goes Iraq, so goes the rest of the Middle East. If the Iraq experiment works, the Middle East will become more civilized and integrate with the rest of the world while retaining their own uniqueness. If not, they will descend into death, fire and ruin. Mostly because the Western nations will have determined that they don't give enough of a shit to try to reform your barbaric asses anymore and will just go for the cheaper, faster flatten everything route.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-12-07 09:55|| 2007-12-07 09:55|| Front Page Top

#16 OlsDpook.

Islam cannot have a protestant reformation because the root of the evil is in the Coran itself. The more people refer to the book and the more violent, contempt and hate-filled they are.

Also don't overestimate Sufism: several of the ideological leaders of Sudan's genocidical junta are sufis.

The protestant reformation in Islam (BTW Islam has had a LOT opf reformations but every time it has been for more violence and mind control) is about as absurd as a believing in a Protestant reformation for nazism.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-12-07 10:33|| 2007-12-07 10:33|| Front Page Top

#17 After wading through the post by our new troll - drdeer - it dawned on me that the new troll's writing style was The major difference being that Joe makes sense and drdeer does not.

Posted by Mark Z">Mark Z 2007-12-07 10:37|| 2007-12-07 10:37|| Front Page Top

#18 Told in simpler words, Decent people between Musklims and Moderate Muslims are bad muslims. It is bin Laden who is really abinding to the letter and spirit of the Coran. He is the good Muslim.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-12-07 10:38|| 2007-12-07 10:38|| Front Page Top

#19 JFM & OldSpook

The interesting thing here is that while there are violence-encouraging verses in the Bible (most in the OT), they had all been reformed by the time of the Talmud (about the time of Constantine). For example, the 'eye for an eye' verse had been reformed centuries before and the reformation had been to say this meant monetary compensation and the 'kill the caanite' verses were established as being no longer applicable since there were no more caanites.

The Koran was given 3 centuries or so after the Talmud and, although there was an effort on the part of philosophers in the middle ages to reform it to be less violent, this reform failed in the face of Koranic originalism reinforced by the Hadith and Sunna.

There were extremist Sunnis and extremist Shia throughout muslim history who took to slaughtering infidels for imagined grievances or forcing conversions, etc. and never has the Moslem world come to grips honestly with this, nor with the tens of millions of slaughtered Hindus (maybe a hundred million) nor the slaughtered Armenians, etc. A few scholars are now trying to start an awakening on this and they run into the Drdeer types.

I don't know what the end will be but we should certainly praise the NYTimes for allowing Hirsi Ali to have her piece published.

Posted by mhw">mhw 2007-12-07 10:58|| http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/]">[http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/] 2007-12-07 10:58|| Front Page Top

#20 Mhw

The differnce between the Bible and Coran is that in the former the possibility of G.d sending other prophets and correcting the message in order to adapt it to newer times was ever open. In Islalm (except betwen the arch-herectic Ahmadists, who are considereed non-Muslims by others) Muhammad is the last prophet. In fact the only one since the message of Jewish priophets and CHrist is said to have been distorted by Jews and Christians while in reality (according to Muslims) they toild same thing thta Mushmmad.

In Fcta, at least between Wahabists (don't know for others) not only there would be no further prophets but Coran has coexisted with God since the beginning of times. It is not ven clear it was created and could be amended by God himself.

About the Bible: the "An eye for an eye" in the Bible (basically the same was tiold in Hammurabi's code of law) meant it imposed limits on revenge/punishment to make them proportional to the offence and was thus a progress respective to "I will kill you for a scratch" of former times. Once society was pacified it became possible to abandon the "an eyes for an eye" rule.

But in Islam everything is frozen to the state it was in 7th century Arabia or more exactly in teh state it was between 7th century Muslims.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-12-07 11:20|| 2007-12-07 11:20|| Front Page Top

#21 DrDear,
The problem with the Koran vsBible comparison is that the Koran is considered the literal word of God. That means nothing that is said there can be a figure of speach, nothing can be a human's misunderstanding of the real universe etc. This makes Islam very rigid, and stuck (technologically as well as morally) in a world 1400 years ago.

To the extent that Muslims have advanced beyond the 7th century CE, it is because they are bad Muslims who have deviated from the Koran. That is why Afghanistan and Somalia regressed to a Dark Ages standard of living under Al Qaeda.

Most forms of Christianity agree that the Bible can be re-interpreted and that meanings can change over time. (e.g. the parable about a Camel getting through the eye of a needle is a term for a type of stone gate common in Jesus' time).

As a result Christianity has handled interest payments, Gallileo's telescope and dinosaurs without violence. I wish Islam could do the same.

Al

Posted by Frozen Al">Frozen Al 2007-12-07 11:51|| 2007-12-07 11:51|| Front Page Top

#22 Never forget that preview can be your best friend. Mods, please strike my unintelligible comments at 10:37 am.

Thank you.

Posted by Mark Z 2007-12-07 12:06|| 2007-12-07 12:06|| Front Page Top

#23 Frozen Al,

I'm not going to dispute your reference to Hamurabi because its not something I really understand at all.

However, saying the Koran is always literally taken has not precluded a long tradition of Koranic interpretation (تفسير, tasfīr).

There are verses that have been abrogated (fwiw, I think the Ahmadis say that most of the jihad verses of the 9th sura were abrogated after the conquest of Arabia). Verses that have been supplemented. Verses that have been clarified. This is made possible by the fact that the Koran has numerous inconsistencies, grammatical irregularities, uses obsure words, has words missing,

Posted by mhw">mhw 2007-12-07 12:16|| http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/]">[http://hypocrisy-incorporated.blogspot.com/] 2007-12-07 12:16|| Front Page Top

#24 I've seen it argued that they did have a "Protestant Reformation," in the sense of getting rid of irrelevancies and excrescences--and that the current one resulted in Salafi/Wahabism.
And we all know about them, and how they treat heretics like the Sufi (must be contaminated with Christian ideas) and the rather lax Muslims you used to find who actually declined to stone converts to Christianity! (imagine that...)

This time there's a historic opportunity: the Koran and hadith say very little about how Muslims should live outside Muslim-controlled lands. If somehow the radical voices can be quieted, maybe Muslim scholars in the West can come up with some peaceful rules to cover the situation.
That presupposes a lot of things, though: cutoff of oil money, a more moderate (almost anybody would be) custodian of Mecca et al, treating anybody advocating a caliphate as an unwelcome foreign agent, etc. Even then I'd not guess the chances are good.

Posted by James">James 2007-12-07 12:21|| http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com]">[http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com] 2007-12-07 12:21|| Front Page Top

#25 If the deerdr actually read the verses he cites, hge would know what he does not. Numbers 31:17 is about the followers of Balaam and a specific incident offensive to YHVH. What it is obviously not is a commandment to do likewise to all unbelievers, or indeed any other unbeliever, at any other time. There's no honest way to read it as a commandment applicable to anyone who was not there.

The Koran is different. It tells all followers to do violence here and now against Islam's supposed enemies. This sort of soft, pasty thinking makes false claims of moral equivalence appear plausible to the unstudied. But its bunk.

Posted by Baba Tutu 2007-12-07 12:44|| 2007-12-07 12:44|| Front Page Top

#26 Another difference between the Bible and the Quran:
the angels in the Bible generally didn't choke the crap out of the people they appeared to.

Posted by eLarson 2007-12-07 13:18|| http://larsonian.blogspot.com]">[http://larsonian.blogspot.com] 2007-12-07 13:18|| Front Page Top

#27 Those of you who wish to "push the button", I have a question for you:

Have you seen combat, have you ever killed, deliberately, another human?

I have, personally, and via artillery and directing tank main gun and machinegun fire. I've seen the bodies of my enemies ripped open and apart by my efforts and those of my "band of brothers".

It changes you. Doenst prevent you from doing it again if you need to, but it does drive home the costs to your soul.

Thats why I am critical of your eagerness to shed blood - and in such horrific numbers when you say "nuke them all". Armchair generals whose asses are not on the line, and never have been, and who have NOT met the innocents you'd sentence to death due to your unthinking wanton bloodlust, well you disgust me. You're no better than Himmler and the other rabble-rousing brownshirts who never met a minority they didn't want to fry.

Human lives, even those of the enemy, are precious to God, and deserve as much protection as we can afford them - even those non-combatants on the other side. So there are limits but we have not reached them yet in my estimation. I fear that we are headed that way, and unless the moderates do stand up, we are accelerating to the point where they and other innocents will get caught up in the needed destruction of the radicals.

But we can afford a LOT more than you leave room for in your straw-man arugments. Its the harder path, but the better path.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-12-07 13:32|| 2007-12-07 13:32|| Front Page Top

#28 Don't mistke the above for inability to act. If the time comes, people like me (and my son and nephews and nieces) are the ones that will have to do the dirty job while you sit comfy in your living room grinning over the blood that will be shed by others for you, so you dont have to get your hands dirty.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-12-07 13:35|| 2007-12-07 13:35|| Front Page Top

#29 mhw,
I did not mention Hammurabi. I think you've mistaken me for JFM.

I agree with you about abrogation. However the Muslims still insist that the Koran is the direct word of God.

It is also notable that while there is a strong tradition of interpretation of the Koran, the authorities have become more and more restrictive on how you can interpret the scriptures.

Big Pharaoh mentions a religious professeur who was fired for agreeing with one of the 4 religeous scholars of Islam. He points out that it is rediculous to hold someone up as a great religious scholar and then fire someone else for agreeing with him.

Al

Posted by Frozen Al">Frozen Al 2007-12-07 13:37|| 2007-12-07 13:37|| Front Page Top

#30 (hit enter too soon)

Have no doubt. We will do it - the American Soldier/Marine/Sailor always has. But in cold logic of neccesity, not out of heat of hatred, and with regret that it had to come to this.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-12-07 13:37|| 2007-12-07 13:37|| Front Page Top

#31 What OldSpook said: Desert Storm I showed me that it was necessary to overwhelm the other guy or else there would be American bodies coming home. And since the Moderate Muslim apprears to be only slightly less real that The Loch Ness Monster, I believe the only recourse is to remove the restraints we have been fighting under these last 6 years and get the job done, once and for all.
No I do not believe these two thoughts are conflicting, thank you for asking.

Posted by USN,Ret. 2007-12-07 14:05|| 2007-12-07 14:05|| Front Page Top

#32 By the way, drdeer comes to us via Saudi Arabia

Ah. That explains the coherence---first cousin marriages etc...

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2007-12-07 14:26|| 2007-12-07 14:26|| Front Page Top

#33 Deuteronomy 21 is indeed a violent and terrible text which dates to the vicious tribal warfare in late Bronze Age Canaan. Deuteronomy 20 is just as bad: if your enemy surrenders, enslave him, otherwise kill him without mercy.

These texts relate to events which took place over 3000 years ago. Civilization, and the Judaeo-Christian religion, has progressed beyond the actions of those barbaric pastorialists.

Islam is a relatively recent throwback which without drastic reformation is unable to exist peacefully with modern civilization.

Posted by KBK 2007-12-07 14:35|| 2007-12-07 14:35|| Front Page Top

#34 Dunno, Spook.

As a former 11BC2, I don't personally wouldn't have "Regret it has come to this" feelings. More of, "You fuckers brought this on yourself".

Which brings me back to the Iraq point. If Iraq works, then I can see people willing to sacrifice more blood and treasure to help the people in the Middle East modernize. Both in their thinking and their technology. However, I feel our patience for doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is fading. Fast. Either we are going to leave them to their own hell, or help them their quicker. Make no mistake. The next ME nation we engage in combat with will NOT be rebuilt. It will be ground to ruin and then left for them to clean up themselves. If they still try to kill us, then I fear the worst will happen.
However, the course of the matter is still young. Only some 4-5 years into the process. We will see how things turn out when it is my son's turn to man the country's defenses in 17 years. It may be an entire different (I hope better) ball game. Or the ME might be glass.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-12-07 14:55|| 2007-12-07 14:55|| Front Page Top

#35 Much of the baggage is not Islam, but is adapted tribal practces of the Bedouin and other morally primitive Saudis, like the Wahabbists.

This so utterly obvious that it astounds when people don't even hint at taking this into account.

I can't resist getting a few words in on this. If we look back to when Christianity went to war, it was during the time of Fuedalism in Europe.

It comes down to the way the people chose to be governed.

I don't have any easy answers on how to reform ME governments or the radical movements, but I do know that the early leaders and proponents of Enlightenment knew at the time that the actions of The Church weren't at all commensurate with the way people must govern themselves.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-12-07 15:10|| 2007-12-07 15:10|| Front Page Top

#36 Vader, thats the sense of it once you get there. But once you get home the "you fuckers brought this on your self" (which I was thinking after the second day) fades to "damn I wish I hand't needed to do that, why didn't they listen?" (about a year after getting back and getting adjusted to life).

What worries me is the fuse is lit. And *we* cannot put it out. Its truly on the Muslims themselves to do it, and I have little faith in them unless Iraq works and establishes a more secular government and proves to be the "cradle" for a more spiritual less militant Islam that is not interested in governing anything other than their own relationship to God.

I honestly do not anticipate that things will change unless we can figure a way to break up the Mullahs Theocracy stranglehold in Iran.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-12-07 16:34|| 2007-12-07 16:34|| Front Page Top

#37 OLdSpook

I didn't say kill Muslims but destroy Islam, the ideology. Have it become a word as depised as Nazism and specially in its former strongholds.

Mrw

We ever hear about those wonderful first centuries of Islam where there was real debate. But if presnt situation is the consequence of the closure of the door of the Ishtihiakl then why is that Islam has stagnated intellectually and ever somthered freedom not only in the terrtorioes who belonged to the CAliph but everywhere. Why is that it also affected Shias?

And now the politically incorrect explanation. There was no such golden age of Islam, or more exactly the factor was not Islam: it was contact with India and China, possession of the lands where Grek science had flkorished and the fact that dhimmis were still the majority (and did all the work: Btw most "Arab" mathematicians were assyrians), but once the dhimmis had been converted (to escape taxes and discvrimination) then reality struck. When you have to stop working five times a day and that the way to richness and heaven is not work and creation of riches but war and plunder it ceased to progress.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-12-07 17:09|| 2007-12-07 17:09|| Front Page Top

#38 I still feel that way, and it has been 13 years. I feel no remorse, no regret. I feel bad for my friend that was killed in a training accident. Not the sap I shot that was shooting at me.

I honestly wish I could go back, but the wife vetos that idea unless I want a divorce (which I don't, hence I am still stateside). You are correct though. The fuse has been lit. WE can't put it out, but we can hand them the water. What they do with it is up to them. I think a lot more blood will be spilt over the issue, but I want it to be their blood not ours. Their misery, not ours. They sowed the wind, they will reap the whirlwind.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-12-07 17:39|| 2007-12-07 17:39|| Front Page Top

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