Article

2004-03-23 Europe

Without Spain, Poland stands alone in EU Controversy

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Posted by Super Hose 2004-03-23 02:59|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Old Europe trying to set things up to assure New Europe doesn't get uppity.

Posted by B 2004-3-23 6:14:41 AM|| 2004-3-23 6:14:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 European Imperialism, Part II. Eastern Europe will get raped like never before. To hell with the EU.

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-23 7:30:35 AM|| 2004-3-23 7:30:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Anyone know what the voting issue was, and what the Polish objection to it is?
Let me guess, for every 1 Polish vote France and Germany get 2?

Posted by JerseyMike 2004-3-23 8:14:48 AM|| 2004-3-23 8:14:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Yeah, if they had their way, Poland would get less votes than under the previous voting system (the Nice Treaty). No matter how you slice it, it will always end up being that the biggest countries will have their way, meaning France & Germany. And somehow, I don't believe that these two will ever consider what's best for the smaller parties. It will always be me first. Chiraq's statement about missing an opportunity to shut-up is a just a taste of what's to come.

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-23 8:32:35 AM|| 2004-3-23 8:32:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 I should clarify, if France, Germany, et al. had their way...

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-23 8:33:28 AM|| 2004-3-23 8:33:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Your bigoted ignorances are strangely comforting.

JerseyMike>No, it's the exact opposite. Poland and Spain wanted each of its citizens to be counted twice when the French and German citizens would be counted only once.

Poland wants to have 27 votes (in comparison to Germany's 29) when Poland has a population of 40 million in comparison to German's 80 million.

Rafael and B> If this was an Old-vs-New Europe thing, then why do you think that Poland had only Spain as an ally rather than the other 7 new Eastern countries?

I would *love* to hear you twist fact to try and come up with an explanation for that little fact.

Idiots.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-23 8:35:34 AM|| 2004-3-23 8:35:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 How cute, Rafael. You said "Yeah" but you didn't actually offer the numbers that would prove that in reality you meant "No", and that the situation is the exact opposite than the one JerseyMike guessed at.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-23 8:37:26 AM|| 2004-3-23 8:37:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 I should also add, the latest proposal for the new voting system, is that decisions will be made when 55% of member states representing 55% of the EU population, agree to it.

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-23 8:37:57 AM|| 2004-3-23 8:37:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 And Rafael, stop pretending that Poland is a little country. It's a frigging large country and it wasn't actually offering any concern for countries smaller than it, and that's why it has gotten no support from countries smaller than it.

This isn't a Big Countries-vs-Small Countries issue either.

This is Big Countries and Small Countries, both united against the two Medium-sized countries (Spain and Poland) that wanted to shit over us all.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-23 8:41:01 AM|| 2004-3-23 8:41:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Yes, and now you will get your chance to shit all over Poland, don't worry. Things are already starting to change, one by one: so much for the free movement of labour, when but a few countries are introducing quotas for the number of workers from the new member states they will allow in. Finding work in the west was one incentive for joining. Well, there goes that.
Time will also show, that Poland will in effect become a net payer into the EU budget, when in all fairness as one of the poorer countries in the EU, it should at first receive more money than they pay in. The EU reason of course will be, that Poland is not yet up to the standard of western EU states in various matters, and that it should modernize first etc etc. By the time this happens, Poland will be rich enough that it won't be elligible to receive anything, and will still be a net payer into the EU budget.
Lastly, the little economic miracles like Portugal and Ireland, that every EUro dweeb is touting, were helped along mainly by the biggest economies in Europe: Germany, France etc. There is no guarantee, especially now since their economies have tanked, that Germany et al. will do the same thing for Poland, what it did for Portugal and Ireland. In other words, they will be more stringent with their budgets, and countries like Poland will actually realize little benefit from EU membership (nothing they couldn't have done by themselves anyway, with just a free trade agreement and without all that political Euro nonsense).

Shithead.

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-23 9:14:01 AM|| 2004-3-23 9:14:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 I see that you didn't actually even *try* to answer the question I asked did you? Or to actually defend your earlier statements, containing lots of propaganda and little in the way of facts.

That's because you can't defend them. Because you know them to be lies.

And as for the rest of your babble, another little fact you can't make go away (no matter how much you try) is that the Polish people voted to enter the EU and they can just as easily choose to leave it, if the bargain now seems unfair to them.

So, STOP WHINING, already! You've already been proven a spewer of false propaganda.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-23 9:30:56 AM|| 2004-3-23 9:30:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 I'll have to agree with Rafael, AK, you are a shithead.
I asked a simple question because I wasn't informed on the issue and made an guess based on both the French and German goverments for the most part being overbearing and bullying pricks.
Its a shame that having been screwed in the past by both, Poland looks like its going back for more.
As far as the EU constitution goes and the ability to have it ratified and implemented - hurry up about it, It will only hasten your decline into socialist oblivion.
I'll sit on the other side of the pond and chuckle, numbnut.

Posted by JerseyMike 2004-3-23 9:42:08 AM|| 2004-3-23 9:42:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Aris, maybe the EU should take a look at our system if they want to see representation of states done right.

But I'm sure you don't understand what I'm saying. I find your bigoted ignorance strangely uncomforting.

Posted by B 2004-3-23 9:48:18 AM|| 2004-3-23 9:48:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Aris

If my memory is any good Germany has made everything possible in anumber of occasions for reducing the number of Polish citizens.

Posted by JFM 2004-3-23 9:55:00 AM|| 2004-3-23 9:55:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 What the hell are you talking about? What question did you ask me? Where did I mention false propaganda?

Will Poland get fewer votes under the new voting system? Yes. What was wrong with the old system that it needed to be changed all of a sudden? Oh I see, more countries coming in would mean Germany and France have less say.
Germany has a bigger population than Poland. Yes, very good Aris, the astute student of geography. My assertion is that the biggest countries will care nothing about the welfare of the less populous ones. I think Chiraq clearly demonstrated that.

Debating entry into the EU is a non-starter. THERE WAS NO OTHER CHOICE. Leaving the EU is also a moot point because in all practicality it would be impossible. Yes the people voted for it, but they were misled.

So then, it is not with me you have a problem, is it Aris, but with the whining Polish people?

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-23 9:58:32 AM|| 2004-3-23 9:58:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Ya know, the whole proportional representation vs. equal representation issue was pretty much solved here in the US of A almost 250 years ago. I'd have thought the EU would have picked up on it, but I guess they just don't have much use for us stupid colonies.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-3-23 10:12:40 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-3-23 10:12:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 DON'T piss off the Poles. It's not smart.

Posted by mojo 2004-3-23 10:49:17 AM|| 2004-3-23 10:49:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 The Poles saved Europe before by their timely arrival at Vienna, just when a hole was blown in the wall by the surrounding Muslim army. OBL's still pissed about THAT intervention.

Posted by Ptah 2004-3-23 12:04:25 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-3-23 12:04:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Rafael> "What the hell are you talking about? What question did you ask me?"

I asked you the following question "If this was an Old-vs-New Europe thing, then why do you think that Poland had only Spain as an ally rather than the other 7 new Eastern countries? "

"What was wrong with the old system that it needed to be changed all of a sudden? "

That there are 25 countries now, soon to be 27, and you can't allow each country to have a veto if you want the union to be functional.

"My assertion is that the biggest countries will care nothing about the welfare of the less populous ones."

Which is why I don't like the idea of populous Poland having even more votes and even more power compared to the small states, when it doesn't even deserve them population-wise?

Poland is a *large* state. It's the fifth largest country in the union for god's sake, after Germany, UK, France and Italy.

"THERE WAS NO OTHER CHOICE."

Bull. Nobody forced you. Nobody coerced you. Your people thought it'd be good for your country, and so they voted YES.

Your people were "misled"? That by itself proves your lie that they were forced. You can't be both forced and misled at the same time, Rafael.

"then, it is not with me you have a problem, is it Aris, but with the whining Polish people?"

I have no proof that the Polish people as a whole are whiners. The only example of Polish whining I know of comes from you.

JerseyMike> "I'll have to agree with Rafael, AK, you are a shithead."

And your opinion of me matters *so* much to me.

"I asked a simple question because I wasn't informed on the issue and made an guess based on both the French and German goverments for the most part being overbearing and bullying pricks"

And yet now you've been informed that your guess needed to be turned 180 degrees around, and yet I don't see you attacking Poland. I see you *still* attacking Germany and France.

Which means you were already determined that these countries were on the wrong and Poland on the right.

Which indicates what? Bias? Bigotry? Racism? Fanaticism? Choose and pick, I won't play the definition game, so I'll just call you a "bloody idiot" which is one thing that's certain.

B> "maybe the EU should take a look at our system if they want to see representation of states done right.

I agree with you. Though I would combine an Upper House-system with the already existing European Council.

"But I'm sure you don't understand what I'm saying."

Except that not only I do understand it, in earlier discussions I have made detailed suggestions based not only the American system but on the already existing EU system as well, so that the EU wouldn't have had to start from scratch, just make minor alterations on the existing system.

Not to mention that I very much doubt you are aware that the bicameral system isn't exclusive to America but is used in many countries throughout the world, including Germany

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-23 1:31:02 PM|| 2004-3-23 1:31:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Ptah: The Poles also saved Europe when they defeated the Red Army in the Battle of Warsaw in 1920. This was Lenin and Trotsky's attempt to link up with the German Communists and spread the Revolution into the heart of Europe.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-3-23 1:57:28 PM|| 2004-3-23 1:57:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Aris, you are putting words in my posts that I never said. I'm not going to start defending things I didn't say. Nice try though.

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-23 2:47:22 PM|| 2004-3-23 2:47:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Aris, Your opening statement was Your bigoted ignorances are strangely comforting.
Nice debate point. There is a reason many here avoid pissing matches with you. "Don't ever wrestle with a pig. You'll just get dirty and the pig will enjoy it."

Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-3-23 4:41:32 PM|| 2004-3-23 4:41:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 From what I've read, Poland seems to be backing away from their stance on the voting issue that was given to them by the Nice meeting in 2000. Though many EU politicians did not seem surprised that Poland wanted to keep the original treaty intact. I'm not sure if the Poles were surprised that they'd be asked to drop the Nice guarantees or not.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-3-23 4:41:59 PM|| 2004-3-23 4:41:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 "the Polish people voted to enter the EU and they can just as easily choose to leave it"

Not so sure its that easy Aris. This clause set in the EU constitution was never actually meant to be used, i.e.:

A new article outlines how a member states would leave the EU: "A member state which decides to withdraw shall notify the Council of its intention... The Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that state, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal."There was never a formal way of leaving the EU, though in practice a state would simply have to repeal its legislation and go. This article is designed to show that the EU is a voluntary association which does not enforce membership. However, there is an implied threat that life might not be too comfortable outside as the departing member would have to negotiate an agreement for its trade and other relations. The clause is presumably designed never to be used.

Unless I'm off - here's the link http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2950276.stm#s13

Posted by Jarhead 2004-3-23 4:53:18 PM|| 2004-3-23 4:53:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Among the many horrible things that Zapatero has yapped about in the last week or two is that he wants Spain to sign the "most excellent" EU Constitution.
Only a few months ago, Spain and Poland stood up to protest their inferior and unequal voting rights as proposed under this Constitution (the lion's share of power going to France and Germany, of course).
This was a wonderful thing, as it stopped the Weasel powers in their march to Socialist hegemony of Europe.
Now, it may be up to Poland alone to hold out for the other smaller and/or less populous EU countries to "have their votes count."

Posted by Jen 2004-3-23 4:59:46 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-3-23 4:59:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Jen, Poland has effectively given up and my guess is that without an ally they will quickly sign anything and everything. They joined the EU not to become isolated from the rest of Europe, so they're sure as hell not going to risk it now. Anyway, Germany already had some nasty things to say to Poland for holding up the constitution talks. Nice partners. Union my ass.

Going back to my "they had no choice" comment, the alternative to joining the EU was to become economically isolated, with little access to the lucrative western European market. Joining the EU was the quickest way to achieve economic par with the western states, but the price for this is that you are expected to "shut-up", as Chiraq once said.
Aris thinks that since people voted overwhelmingly to join the EU, they must love it so much. There's much more to it than that, but of course you can choose to ignore the facts that go against your views, right Aris? Condescending little prick.

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-23 5:53:08 PM|| 2004-3-23 5:53:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Jarhead:
Germany will become one of the premier investors in Poland, especially on the territory that was once theirs. Just visit the border region to see what's going on there now. Should Poland decide to leave the EU, I can't imagine Germany, or anybody else who invested heavily in the area, to just pack everything up and pretend that nothing happened. I can just picture the lawsuits, sanctions, blockades.
Anyway, it's a moot point because I can't imagine any state actually leaving the EU. But who knows. It's worked thus far because there were fewer members. With this enlargemet, maybe the shit will hit the proverbial fan. And no, I'm not hoping for that to happen.

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-23 6:08:53 PM|| 2004-3-23 6:08:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Jen> "Now, it may be up to Poland alone to hold out for the other smaller and/or less populous EU countries to "have their votes count."

LOL! Yeah, this frigging huge country, the fifth largest nation in the EU, will defend the "other smaller nations".

Jen, kiddo, how many times will you attempt to dishonestly ignore the annoying little fact I've mentioned several times already? Namely that NONE OF THOSE SMALLER COUNTRIES SIDED WITH POLAND IN THIS, *exactly* because it was never about Big-vs-Small nations, it was about Poland and Spain seeking superior and ludicrously unequal voting rights to the detriment of the other 23 nations?

I guess that the 19 smaller-than-Poland-or-Spain nations must be brainwashed or something, not recognizing that Poland is only looking out for the smaller nations' good.

Jarhead> Even the most eurosceptical politicians praised the article of secession as excellent: The article would be far more threatening if it allowed no negotiation room at all, if remaining in the EU was necessarily an all-or-nothing option.

Rafael> They chose the EU over the alternative.
All the rest of your "facts" are wild guesses and hypotheses, that still can't overcome this bit: that your people freely voted themselves in.

whitecollar redneck> Rafael pretending that Poland's stance represents the entirety of Eastern Europe, B talking about Old-vs-New Europe, JerseyMike already figuring out (not knowing anything about this) that it's the eeevil France and Germany to blame.

In these circumstances "Bigoted ignorances" was the polite term to use about these posts. "Retarded shit" was the term I had first felt like using.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-23 6:14:01 PM|| 2004-3-23 6:14:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Since you missed it the first time: here are some of my wild guesses and hypotheses. Oops, one more.

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-23 6:23:44 PM|| 2004-3-23 6:23:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Rafael> Regarding the first two links: So, some countries say that they'll use the transition time for admitting new workers, that as had been agreed in advance was fully within their rights to so use? Oh, the horror.

And regarding the third link: So Poland is behind on everything she agreed regarding the EU? Reminds me of Greece and the Olympics, but how the hell is that the EU's fault rather than Poland's?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-23 6:44:27 PM|| 2004-3-23 6:44:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Aris:"you can't allow each country to have a veto if you want the union to be functional"

That's a pretty glaring admission on your part that all might not be well in paradise. Well done Aris. And which countries should have the veto? Let me take a wild stab at it, France & Germany?

"ludicrously unequal voting rights to the detriment of the other 23 nations"

A voting system where France & Germany (and possibly Spain) have the final say over everything (combined with the veto) is not to the detriment of the other 21 nations? It's good that Chiraq and Schroeder and the rest of the get-along-gang know what's best for everybody, otherwise, they'd be lost.

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-23 6:44:34 PM|| 2004-3-23 6:44:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 I'm sorry...who's a retarded shit?
I am sick to death of you, Katsaris, clogging up every thread on Europe with your incomprehensible, uninformed and hectoring crap!
Your name may be Greek, but I think you're obnoxious boor and Marxist policy wonk Dominque de VILEpain.

Posted by Jen 2004-3-23 6:47:35 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-3-23 6:47:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 "That's a pretty glaring admission on your part that all might not be well in paradise. "

Noooo, yah think?

If I had ever spoken about paradise you might have had a point.

"Let me take a wild stab at it, France & Germany? "

How about no country at all?

Jen> If you are sick to death of me, Jen, then throw yourself out a window. If I had been as fanatical against Israel as many of you are fanatical against Germany and France you'd have been rightly calling me an antisemite.

"your incomprehensible, uninformed and hectoring crap! "

LOL. If my crap's incomprehensible to you, have you considered that it may be your comprehension, not my crap, that is the problem?

And uninformed? There's a laugh.

"Your name may be Greek, but I think you're obnoxious boor and Marxist policy wonk Dominque de VILEpain."

So, I'm French now? I thought you had recently accused me of posting from Russia, an accusation I didn't much comprehend, and in that case I really think it wasn't my comprehension that was the problem.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-23 6:57:35 PM|| 2004-3-23 6:57:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 EU governments have not done enough to inform citizens about enlargement and the new EU citizens are paying the price with restrictions on their movement around the Union

For Poles, struggling with an economic crisis and the threat of unemployment, the chance of finding a legal job in EU countries soon after enlargement was one of the arguments in favor of membership in the 2003 referendum.

The headings of dispatches from the last few days and weeks speak for themselves: "The Dutch parliament wants to limit arrivals of workers from new EU countries;" "Norway intends to limit the influx of workers from new EU states;" "Work in Spain will be possible no earlier than two years after enlargement;" "The German Bundestag is working on a new act to close the labor market." The 15 EU countries are sending clear signals of their fears.
The only two countries consistently stating that their job markets will open as of May 1 are Ireland and Great Britain.

the European Commission criticized Poland's preparations for accession to the European Union.

if the shortcomings are not remedied by May 1, 2004, they may lead to serious difficulties in EU direct payments to Polish farmers.

(links were provided above)

Re-read my comments today and tell me that what I said is unfounded, propaganda, or wild guesses.

Re. the veto: How about no country at all? You're the one who brought it up!!!! Man, this is pointless....

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-23 7:08:41 PM|| 2004-3-23 7:08:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Once again, how does this violate any of the agreements that Poland already knew about? If they haven't updated their legislation to make it consistent with those agreements how is that the EU's fault?

And why is it wrong for member-states to use a transition time that was again agreed to be within their rights to do so?

And "wild guesses" remains "wild guesses" when you are predicting that Poland for some reason will delay so long in implementing those agreement that it will end up a net payer. What makes you say that?

I brought it up? Yes, I brought up the reason that the earlier system ought to be changed in order to reduce the possibility of individual countries vetoing a whole process. You seemed to take it as again me wanting the dreaded "France and Germany" in change. But that's your fixation, not mine.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-23 7:19:09 PM|| 2004-3-23 7:19:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 And why is it wrong for member-states to use a transition time...

They had time to prepare so why didn't they? It's not wrong, but it's not very neighbourly of them, validating the argument that it is an artificial union. Especially considering that a HUGE market has just opened up for them in the east, whereas the east will gain minimal benefit for some time yet.

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-23 8:04:49 PM|| 2004-3-23 8:04:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 I don't get angry very often on this forum bu t geez AK...you are a fucking moron

The reason why the samller countries didn't align themselves with Poland on this issue is that they are happy just to be able to join the EU, they don't want to piss off the big boys

Poland negotiated the entry into the EU under the old agreement where it would get the 27 votes, then the EU decided to change the rulse

Poland is getting screwed on agriciltural subsidies, they will get a fraction of what the old EU members get

Poland is getting screwed on imiigration, practically all the EU countries have changed their laws to restrict migration from the new EU members (except Ireland as I understand)

If I had the right to vote I would have told them to go and stick their EU up the khyber, Poland has been screwed far too many times and it's getting screwed once again

Posted by Igs 2004-3-23 8:18:49 PM|| 2004-3-23 8:18:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 You guys amaze me. I shudder to think what type of blood would have been spilled had I actually posted the article. :-)

Posted by Super Hose 2004-3-23 8:28:23 PM|| 2004-3-23 8:28:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Transition periods are also given to the acceding EU members, for issues that concern them, according to each Treaty of Accession. That's what the whole idea of "negotiations" is all about.

Go here: http://www.epp-ed.org/enlargement/home/en/default.asp

and the click on the little flags to see the transition periods granted for each acceding member state.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-23 8:34:42 PM|| 2004-3-23 8:34:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Igs> "The reason why the samller countries didn't align themselves with Poland on this issue is that they are happy just to be able to join the EU, they don't want to piss off the big boys "

IGS, what you are still pretending not to get is that Poland *is* one of the big boys, and the thing that it wanted (alongside Spain) would have screwed the smaller countries as much as it would have screwed the large ones.

It would have screwed everyone except Spain and Poland.
--

As for Poland, (http://www.epp-ed.org/Press/pdoc03/accession_treaty-pl.doc) the link I provide mentions how it got 43 transitional periods for itself, so it's really kinda rich seeing you people whining about the transitional period in allowing movement of labour that the old EU members requested for themselves.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-23 8:41:23 PM|| 2004-3-23 8:41:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 The above link was a summary, here seems to be the full report to all the transitional period requested and granted to acceding members: http://www.europa.eu.int/comm/enlargement/negotiations/pdf/negotiations_report_to_ep.pdf

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-23 8:46:45 PM|| 2004-3-23 8:46:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 AK, there is a difference between defining a country based on population and economic power. While Poland may only be half of Germany in terms of population, when it comes to economic output, it's not one of the big boys.

The migration policy adopted by the EU countries it racist at best. Germany doesn't mind if workers from the UK, France or Belgium come along but they are scared shitless of the hordes from the east, this applies to all other EU countries.

Posted by Igs 2004-3-23 8:54:57 PM|| 2004-3-23 8:54:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 JerseyMike already figuring out (not knowing anything about this) that it's the eeevil France and Germany to blame.

AK, There is absolutely nothing that you have said in your insane screed throughout this entire thread that is giving me any inkling what your hard-on is with Poland.
Is it that they simply sided with the U.S. or perhaps they are attempting to show a little free thinking in that they haven't automatically fallen in lock step with Old Europe?
The darkest moments of Poland's tragic history features both Germany and France front and center. As far as my guess at what the problem is, France and Germany have gone to great pains to prove they are the two main power players in the EU, and have bullied other members and prospective members, ask Turkey for one I'm sure they can tell you all about it.

Posted by JerseyMike 2004-3-23 9:00:55 PM|| 2004-3-23 9:00:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 "AK, there is a difference between defining a country based on population and economic power."

The votes have to do with population, not with economic power.

And "racist"?!? That's a laugh. Yeah, some countries are scared about large numbers of new workers coming from *poor* countries.

If anything this is classist, not racist. What does race or nationality have to do with it?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-23 9:03:08 PM|| 2004-3-23 9:03:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 JerseyMike> "Is it that they simply sided with the U.S. "

No, actually I liked that. For a country like Poland, it's a far better omen if it sides with the US (and other countries of Western Europe), than if it sides with Russia.

"or perhaps they are attempting to show a little free thinking in that they haven't automatically fallen in lock step with Old Europe?"

Oh, yeah, that's the ticket. Because they haven't automatically fallen in lock step with Old Europe countries like... Spain?

Pfft.

Why don't you actually *accept* what I said, and understand that the beef I had with Poland is that (alongside Spain) it was trying to screw both smaller and bigger countries that wanted a more fair and functional voting system? Demanding a number of votes that was irrationally out of proportion even by European Council standards?

Why does everything need to have deeper dark motivations for you people? I *said* why I was annoyed with Poland.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-23 9:18:44 PM|| 2004-3-23 9:18:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 Bottom line is, the EU can expand to beyond Pluto but France & Germany will always do everything to be the epicenter of power. Look for a 'union within a union' to develop, consisting of the original six (or whatever the number was).

Posted by Rafael 2004-3-23 9:26:04 PM|| 2004-3-23 9:26:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 "Even the most eurosceptical politicians praised the article of secession as excellent: The article would be far more threatening if it allowed no negotiation room at all, if remaining in the EU was necessarily an all-or-nothing option."

-I don't dispute that some politicians may have praised this article as you say. However, you asserted it was an easy endeavor to leave the union, I'd say it is a simple action but definitely not an easy one. As simple and easy are not the same thing. Also, I'm sure they had to put a negotiating aspect into the draft as no country in its right mind would sign off on a non-negotiable exit course of action - the framers of your constitution definitely knew this - so I think that's a moot point and a bit of a non-sequitor (sp?). Anyway, I've enjoyed this thread - very educational.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-3-23 9:47:49 PM|| 2004-3-23 9:47:49 PM|| Front Page Top

02:40 .com
02:10 Jen
01:48 .com
01:36 Zenster
16:10 Zenster
15:51 Frank G
15:49 Frank G
15:44 Anonymous
18:50 Barbara Skolaut
13:16 Daniel King
09:41 Jarhead
02:45 Super Hose
02:34 Super Hose
00:29 Jen
00:09 ex-lib
00:08 ex-lib
00:03 CrazyFool
00:01 Edward Yee
00:01 tu3031
23:59 tu3031
23:58 Super Hose
23:56 Hyper
23:56 Super Hose
23:47 tu3031