Article

2004-04-11 -Short Attention Span Theater-

A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthurâs Court

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Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 10:19:40 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 It's the Highway of Death, 102 years early.

Bizzare link but entertaining.

Posted by Shipman 2004-04-11 12:59:00 PM|| 2004-04-11 12:59:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Amusing that that writer thinks so poorly of modern Muslims that he compares them to the "backward" members of Arthur's time.

And he thinks the NEOCONS are arrogant???

Posted by rkb 2004-04-11 1:37:23 PM|| 2004-04-11 1:37:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Why find it amusing? The Taliban were as bad as anything to be found in Arthur's time, whether in the real world or in the Camelot of fiction.

And I didn't see him condemning the entirety of Muslims.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 2:10:00 PM|| 2004-04-11 2:10:00 PM|| Front Page Top

"In Connecticut Yankee, thousands are killed and in the end The Boss is stuffed in a cave and society goes back to the way it had been before he ever arrived. In real life, getting rid of the Taliban and the Husseins was a fabulous idea in the abstract, but in practice it has meant killing thousands of people, and to what end? Afghanistan is controlled by warlords, women outside Kabul are still treated as chattel, and the Taliban are actually coming back. Iraq looks due for a period of civil war followed by the establishment of an Islamist state (or three) in which most people will be no freer and no less fearful than they were under Saddam Hussein."

Here the author argues that since nothing has been or will be accomplished in Afghanistan and Iraq (which is, at the least, debatable), nothing should have been done. (He also ignores the benefits of our actions beyond the borders: Is the world better off now that Libya has abandoned its nuclear weapons program? But I digress.)

"Sneer if you will about 'goody-goody talk and moral suasion,' but as macho as you might feel as you put it on your agenda, the fact is that mass murder is not very constructive. Gosh, who'd have thought?"

Interesting rhetorical device, but after creating the false dichotomy that the only alternative to "moral suasion" is "mass murder," he then argues that, since "mass murder is not very constructive," (with the implication that truly moral people don't engage in it) the only real alternative to "moral suasion" is to (again) do nothing. (The not-so-well hidden implication is that since the allies are not using "moral suasion," they must be using "mass murder.") But there is a wide spectrum of possible actions between these two alternatives, including what we're doing now. (George Bush isn't Josef Stalin or Adolf Hitler, and the American army in Iraq is not the Japanese army in China, or the Roman army in Carthage.)

In taking the cheap shot, Cadre fails to examine the real issues that Twain is exploring: Is it possible to "save" a society that doesn't want/isn't ready to be saved? And even if it is not possible, is it moral to stand by and do nothing? The Boss, a 19th century man, has no doubts: Of course you take action, of course you try to improve things. Contrast him with the our century's cultural relativists (who argue that all cultures have equal merit, so hands off!) and opportunists (reform shouldn't get in the way of business: Hi there, France). But The Boss fails, and in his failure he is amazed by the response of the people, who obviously (to him) have the greatest chance to benefit. Perhaps Twain is arguing that all successful revolutions have to start from within?

Posted by Old Grouch 2004-04-11 3:03:51 PM|| 2004-04-11 3:03:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Oh yeah, deep. I'm tossing Clemens on the trash heap - Davey's got my six.

A simple knockoff by Simon is deeper, yet mysteriously on-point:
All lies in jest.
Still a man hears
What he wants to hear
And disregards the rest.

Li'l Davey Deepster's kerfuffle is found wanting, IMO.

Posted by .com 2004-04-11 4:33:31 PM|| 2004-04-11 4:33:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Old Grouch> "He also ignores the benefits of our actions beyond the borders: Is the world better off now that Libya has abandoned its nuclear weapons program?"

According to State Department's own reports that I've found online (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/2441.htm), Khaddaffi has been trying to deassociate himself and Libya from terrorism from atleast 2000.

So, if you think that stopping his WMD was a result of the Bush administration's actions in Iraq, then were Khaddafi's earlier efforts due to the things done by the Clinton administration?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 6:25:06 PM|| 2004-04-11 6:25:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 .com> Probably an old pic -- I know that Adam Cadre is in his thirties now.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 6:28:04 PM|| 2004-04-11 6:28:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Aris - is it the Hammer & Sickle that make you feel so warm and fuzzy? Just teasing.

BTW, it seems he's one of those assholes who link to someone else's site (i.e. David Glassner)... if not, then "Adam" is actually Davey and he's in year 2 at MIT and, thus, nowhere near 30. So which one is he? Asshole or MIT student? Lol!

Posted by .com 2004-04-11 6:53:41 PM|| 2004-04-11 6:53:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Aris, I intended the Libya item as an example, and am perfectly willing to consider the proposition that the Afghanistan/Iraq invasions may not have been the sole reason for Khaddaffi's behavior. (And which adminstration claims credit for it is unimportant to me, I'm just glad he decided to clean up his act.) There are other examples that could be cited.

Any thoughts on the rest of my arguments?

Posted by Old Grouch 2004-04-11 8:19:53 PM|| 2004-04-11 8:19:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 David Glasser and Adam Cadre are two distinct and well-known individuals in the Interactive Fiction community -- not sure what link you are talking about, but Adam probably had permission.

According to him, the name in his birth certificate is Muhammad Adam Dahlan al-Kadri, so you can probably drop the quotes around 'Adam'.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 8:22:10 PM|| 2004-04-11 8:22:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I like the Connecticut Yankee analogy (I'd actually thought of it myself, although I've never written about it), and I think it does represent the downside risk of the administration's strategy. Thanks for posting the link!

Posted by Arnold Kling 2004-04-11 8:44:06 PM|| [http://arnoldkling.com] 2004-04-11 8:44:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 "David Glasser and Adam Cadre are two distinct and well-known individuals in the Interactive Fiction community"

Lol! Aris, you're so full of bullshit it's amazing. Did a little Googling, did ya, on David Glasser? Pfeh, you're a disingenuous goof: it was David GlassNer, not Glasser, that your boy Mohammad "Adam" linked to. Who is a kid attending MIT.

Next time you wanna bluff or post bullshit, go more than one level into it, K? Wotta joke.

Posted by .com 2004-04-11 8:51:09 PM|| 2004-04-11 8:51:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Interesting, well written and many good points,

BUT

Typical. It's exactly the same theme as every single solitary NPR piece I have ever heard in my entire lifetime (yes, I know it's not a NPR piece).... which is this:

Oh sure, "it" looks happy and functional on the outside, the people are smiling, seem carefree and healthy. But it's all just a facade that hides a dark and sinister plot....[cue the dark music in minor chords]

Here is how I read this brilliant piece of analysis you just gave us:

It is nice that the soup kitchen down the street feeds people who would otherwise starve to death. It's nicer than it is on the other side of town where they just step over people starving to death, and no one does anything about it....

BUT

ultimately, the people who feed the starving people are really the bad ones. Yes, that's right you see, because if those people live instead of die, then, someday it's possible,, that if the nice people were to ever stop feeding them, then they would all die at once, rather than one time ...and wouldn't that be terrrible that they all lived happily for an extra 10 or 20 years when something bad COULD happen to them later on. The plan isn't perfect you see, so we must stop the people feeding them until we can all agree on a perfect plan...which will be never..which means I don't have to feel guilty about stepping over the starving people with stomachs protruding and bones sticking out because, by doing nothing at all, I'M BETTER THAN those PHONY people who feed them .

Aris - I recommend a logic class for you and all the others who need to be told what you see and feel when you look at pictures hanging in art galleries.

If A=B and B=A then A must = C....right? Jeesh.

Posted by B 2004-04-11 8:58:56 PM|| 2004-04-11 8:58:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 B - You've made me hungry! As one of those evil capitalists whose work and deeds make no difference in the world, and in honor of the 7 new hostages, I think I'll order Chinese tonight! Lol!

Drop Clemens' body of work which has stood for 100 years for a twinkie lightweight like al Kadri's assessment? Nahhhhhh, I don't think so.

"Twinkies! Yumm!"
-Homer (No, no, the other Homer!)

Posted by .com 2004-04-11 9:07:08 PM|| 2004-04-11 9:07:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Old Grouch> As regards the rest of your comment: I think that Adam Cadre's definition of "mass murder" probably includes all warmaking -- and to a certain extent it could probably be indeed considered such if we define "murder" to be all deliberate cold-blooded taking of human life.

But either way, I generally disagree with him on the necessity of such warfare -- yes, Iraq seems to be falling pray to Islamofascism, but this doesn't mean *all* such wars need lead to the same results.

In short, the fact that invading Iraq was bloody stupid, doesn't mean that invading *any* dictatorship would have been likewise stupid. :-)

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 9:07:29 PM|| 2004-04-11 9:07:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 .com> I'm really not certain what paranoia is leading you now. "Did a little googling"? I'm also a part of the Interactive Fiction community and that's why these names are well-known by me. And once again I don't know what link you are talking about. David Glasser is a member of the IF community. I don't know of any "David Glassner".

As for Adam Cadre being a kid attending MIT, since 2000 he's also a published author, so even more kudos to him if he managed that while still studying.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 9:15:55 PM|| 2004-04-11 9:15:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 I keep on rereading your comments .com, and I really think you've exceeded all levels of bizarreness and insanity. What kind of "bluff" are you talking about? Is this a conspiracy on my part to do what?

Take your medication. I really don't get you.

And B, try not to be the chorus to a man suffering as many delusions as .com. I'm still not certain what you people are accusing me of doing.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 9:24:07 PM|| 2004-04-11 9:24:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 The link on Al Kadri's site to "his" picture is to a kid at MIT named David GlassNer. You brought Glasser into this because either you're a twit cuz you don't pay attention or you're a disingenuous blowhard and he's just a canard.

Kadri's one of those assholes who posts BS links to other people's sites - thinking himself clever.

You're either a retard or an ass. 'Tis more than clear. Your closing bit about Kadri is just precious bullshit! Lol!

Posted by .com 2004-04-11 9:31:03 PM|| 2004-04-11 9:31:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 No, the link to his picture goes to a pic hosted at www.davidglasser.net, in particular to this site here: http://www.davidglasser.net/ifhos/
which lists several dozens members of the IF community, with photos attached to many of them.

You are either a liar or just insane, .com. Either way you've made a fool of yourself.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 9:36:45 PM|| 2004-04-11 9:36:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Aris, apparently you are only deluding yourself. No one is fooled by your little technique of asking, "I'm just curious what you think" as you put up a piece that you want us to read. And I am certainly not persuaded by your sudden victimization status.

Aris: Poor me, (swoon and fans self) they all accuse me of ...of....something...I just don't understand. I was standing here, minding my own business and they all just started to descend upon me...for no reason...and those vile creatures..how they scare me so.

It's not surprising you don't get .com - since you can't grasp how stupid this analysis was. Let's let them die...so that somebody can't kill them all in the future. Brilliant! Just Brilliant. I'm sure we'll see it on a monument somewhere..."Do Nothing to Make the World a Better Place".

Posted by B 2004-04-11 9:39:13 PM|| 2004-04-11 9:39:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 B> I found the piece interesting. I agree with the many of the specifics if not some of the conclusions. And yes I wanted you to read it.

Did I ever deny all that?

.com has fragrantly lied, then when I tried to be civil for once rather than my usual technique of blasting him to hell and beyond for being an ABSOLUTE LYING MORON WHO SHOULD GET SOME ELECTROCUTION THERAPY, .com kept on with his lies and strange insinuations about "bluffing" and being disingenuous when I correctly typed the name he had himself mistyped. There's no 'N' in Glasser, .com you idiot boy.

No, I just don't get this attitude on you part.

And no, I never said you "scared" me. I am just saying that you're all little retarded morons from hell -- may you be anally probed by extraterrestrials.

There. Since civility doesn't work with utter assholes such as yourselves, perhaps this will work instead, and I won't have to any longer try my hand at niceness.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 9:46:36 PM|| 2004-04-11 9:46:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 and I won't have to any longer try my hand at niceness.

Scoff. This is how I would characterize your attempts at niceness:

What a beautiful dress. It makes you look so much less fat than usual.

Posted by B 2004-04-11 9:52:40 PM|| 2004-04-11 9:52:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 I would like an apology from both of you, btw, though obviously I don't expect one, even after as rabid and obvious lying as all that.

You morons.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 9:53:40 PM|| 2004-04-11 9:53:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Where .com and you are concerned, this should be the niceness that befits you: "What a beautiful dress. Where did you steal it from?"

You lying sacks of shit.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 9:55:28 PM|| 2004-04-11 9:55:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 That's what you always been saying anyways Aris. Apparently you were the only one who didn't grasp how obvious that was.

Posted by B 2004-04-11 10:01:15 PM|| 2004-04-11 10:01:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Aris - I did make a mistake, actually TWO!

Mistake #1 - I screwed up the spelling... But that's not the key...

We'll take this REALLY SLOW so you can keep up...

1) Here's Al Kadri's page with link to "his picture".

2) Here's the Page it links to - and this isn't your Al Kadri guy - so he IS an asshole who links to other people's websites. Prolly even thinks himself clever, like you.

3) And this is the home page - showing this kid is an MIT student - and is NOT Al Kadri, asshole, which you already knew.

4) Hell, here's his weblog on Live Journal. He's a kid - doing kid stuff and speaking in kid speak.

Is this your "well known interactive fiction author"? Lol! You suggest that your Al Kadri has scooped the world on Clemens? Lol! You're still the champ asshole of Rantburg, though I do give you a run for your money now and then. But I'll never match your ashattedness - even on my best day going downhill with the wind behind me.

Mistake #2 - I posted something to you. Stupid. You're the biggest fucktard that every rattled a keyboard. What a waste of time. Never again.

BTW, I admitted my mistake. Will Aris The Grate EVER admit one? Lol! Of course not - that's how one gets to BE Aris The Grate! LOL!

Posted by .com 2004-04-11 10:05:14 PM|| 2004-04-11 10:05:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Yes, my extreme rudeness is *so* obvious at comments #7 and #10 -- which is the point where .com and you started accusing me of bullshitting, logical idiocy, bluffing and various other tidbits.

Since I'm so stupid that I can't see where my rudeness lay, would you mind spelling it out for me? Comments #7 and #10 are the relevant ones. Cheers.

You idiot.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 10:06:48 PM|| 2004-04-11 10:06:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 .com> You screwed up the spelling and then accused me of lying and of being disingenuous and of bluffing and of bullshitting when I corrected you. So, up yours, you lying idiot boy.

The pic Adam linked to *is* Adam's own photo as hosted in David Glasser's site, a site which also hosts pics of several dozen other people, as you would see if you went here: http://www.davidglasser.net/ifhos/

Do you have any reason to believe Adam didn't get permission to link to his own pic there?

David Glasser is indeed a MIT student, class of 2006. Never denied that, did I? Thanks for the link to his livejournal, I didn't know he had one.

But Adam Cadre isn't a MIT student.

And as for the rest you're still an moronic asshole from hell. I demand an apology from you for all the insults you bestowed on me for doing nothing more than correcting you on your errors.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 10:15:27 PM|| 2004-04-11 10:15:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 This thread will be a useful one for future reference, btw. Few times have people ever betrayed in public their innate assholiness as thoroughly as you have, .com.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 10:30:21 PM|| 2004-04-11 10:30:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 You posted inane shit about Mohammad Al Kadri (why do you avoid his real name, hmmm?) - to wit:
"As for Adam Cadre being a kid attending MIT, since 2000 he's also a published author, so even more kudos to him if he managed that while still studying."
Wotta load. But you haven't admitted that was erroneous, have you? Lesseee.... no, amazingly not.

Regards, David Glasser being:
"David Glasser and Adam Cadre are two distinct and well-known individuals in the Interactive Fiction community"
Do you really ascribe this vaunted implied standing to li'l Davey? Appears so...

You still wish to suggest that Mo Al Kadri's book is worthy of consideration in the same venue as Clemens'? LOL! Well, you have gall, I'll give you that! Stupid, but definitely an industrial dose of gall.

As for insulting you, is that possible? You've called others some pretty amazingly offensive names. I recall Zhang Fei showing restraint you couldn't manage in this regard. You screech at entire groups of people calling them names, such as your recent "idiots" classic. You're as guilty of name-calling as anyone who has ever posted on RB, sonny. Much much moreso than most.

My offer: I'll apologize to you for calling you a fucktard and asshole and (below) jerk when you apologize to everyone you've insulted here on RB.

That's the best you'll ever get - and you STILL have never admitted even ONE mistake or error on Rantburg that I've ever seen... and you've been nailed repeatedly. My favorite is when you claimed that governments were monolithic in their actions, when it doesn't take more than a child's mental ability to see that they certainly are - and I gave you an unassailable example. What did you do? Change the subject and engage someone else - and that is your typical approach.

You're truly a jerk, Aris. Unworthy of debate because you never engage honestly - and that is why people go negative with you. You don't deserve better. You have your offer above. Take it or fuck off.

Posted by .com 2004-04-11 10:43:09 PM|| 2004-04-11 10:43:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 apparently we have a cultural misunderstanding, Aris, my kind friend.

I do apologize to you. You have made every effort to be so very polite as you make your condescending remarks. And I must confess, the analysis you presented was truly brilliant. The writer's ability to brush over genocidal murder and come to the verbal conclusion that it would be far better to do nothing at all was truly a work of genius. His masterful ability to make inhumane suffering seem acceptable in polite discussion was allows us to throw off 2,000 years of conventional wisdom about enhancing the human condition and to embrace new "ideals".

Of course, there are those of us who still believe that rape rooms, genocide and dog status for women are not acceptable in the modern world, however, your featured analysis certainly did a masterful job of making those unpleasantries seem more palatable.

Thank you for bringing me such enlightment. I am truly grateful.

Posted by B 2004-04-11 10:43:45 PM|| 2004-04-11 10:43:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 .com> "why do you avoid his real name, hmmm?"

Adam Cadre is his real name - he had it legally changed, and is the one he uses and the one he's better known with. You might just as well ask why I prefer to use "Mark Twain" rather than "Samuel Clemens".

"But you haven't admitted that was erroneous, have you?"

Because it wasn't? The meaning of the sentence was that I found it unlikely that a kid currently at MIT would have published a novel 4 years ago -- and if he did, kudos to him, so I didn't see your point even I accepted your erroneous statement as correct.

"Do you really ascribe this vaunted implied standing to li'l Davey?"

David Glasser is well known in the IF Community, as he's the FAQ maintainer of the relevant newsgroups. Don't care if you don't believe me.

"You still wish to suggest that Mo Al Kadri's book is worthy of consideration in the same venue as Clemens'? "

Ah, even more lies on your part. Nope, I never suggested that and you know I didn't and you therefore lie when you suggest I did. In fact, I don't actually like Adam Cadre's prose at all -- I found his short stories disappointing so I didn't bother to buy his novel, even though he's my favourite IF creator.

I will apologize to *everyone* whom I ever insulted because they corrected me on factual mistakes I made. But the number of these people is a big fat ZERO. I appreciate corrections and have never once in my life insulted people for offering them. Nor will I ever insult them.

"and you STILL have never admitted even ONE mistake or error on Rantburg that I've ever seen... and you've been nailed repeatedly. My favorite is when you claimed that governments were monolithic in their actions, when it doesn't take more than a child's mental ability to see that they certainly are - and I gave you an unassailable example."

I don't remember that debate. Link it to me, and I'll check it out, and admit any mistakes I made there -- but my current guess is that you're just lying again, as you lied in earlier posts and as you lied here again.

So fuck you. I won't apologize for calling nasty little bigots "nasty little bigots", nor for calling you an asshole and a jerk.

Find me even one time I ever insulted someone for offering me a factual correction.

B> Your ability to ignore the fact about his claim that hey, it doesn't actually seem as if you managed to improve matters on Iraq, is also quite remarkable.

But more importantly to the issue here, you've yet again failed to answer the question I so very humbly asked, in short to show me where was I ever rude in my comments #7 or #10, the relevant comments in question.

You fucking moron.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 11:33:13 PM|| 2004-04-11 11:33:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 But more importantly to the issue here, you've yet again failed to answer the question I so very humbly asked, in short to show me where was I ever rude in my comments #7 or #10, the relevant comments in question.

You fucking moron.

LOL! Like I said Aris, it's all just a cultural misunderstanding. You value the presentation, we value the product.

Posted by B 2004-04-11 11:36:56 PM|| 2004-04-11 11:36:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 "But the number of these people is a big fat ZERO."
And there you have it.

You know, you really didn't need to work so hard (50 minutes - impressive, Lol!) when all you were going to do is your usual. Next time, save yourself the trouble and just post:
"The Usual."

Don't worry, everyone will know precisely what that means! Lol!

Aris The Grate. There can be only one, as the storyline goes. LOL! You really do lie like a rug and suck like an F5, Katsaris. So very very singular.

Posted by .com 2004-04-11 11:48:32 PM|| 2004-04-11 11:48:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 In my experience, fucking morons are fucking morons, regardless of culture. For example: People taking offense at simple factual correction, to the point of insanely raving about duplicity, bullshitting, lying, bluffing, conspiracy and so forth, and repeatedly and adamantly refusing correction, are *always* fucking morons.

But then again I'm not a cultural relativist.

And you are still a fucking moron.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 11:50:20 PM|| 2004-04-11 11:50:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 .com> Most of the 50 minutes were spent commenting on the Cypriot president's speech about the Annan plan on the reunification of Cyprus actually. http://www.livejournal.com/users/katsaris/13086.html

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-11 11:53:56 PM|| 2004-04-11 11:53:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Cool!

Posted by .com 2004-04-11 11:59:29 PM|| 2004-04-11 11:59:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 it doesn't actually seem as if you managed to improve matters on Iraq

Ahh...but that's really MY point now isn't it Aris? You don't seem to grasp that standing by and doing nothing but attempting to verbalize away the horrors of rape rooms, childrens jails and mass genocide make you beneath contempt.

I think Iraq is better off without rape rooms, gassing of Kurds, terror squads and torture. You don't see any difference. I guess that just defines the difference between us, Aris.

If I were the victim of Sadaam's terror, I'd hope the American's or ANYONE, for that matter, came to rescue me.

So Aris, I have decided to curse you with with your own words...may you, rather than some other nameless individual, be the victim of those very sins for which you have apologized away today - and may your only relief be the words and deeds of individuals such as yourself. May you find comfort in knowing that you will get what you are currently willing to give.

Cheers. Sleep well.

Posted by B 2004-04-12 12:06:20 AM|| 2004-04-12 12:06:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#39 B - If I've ever ever offended you, believe me, I am very very sorry!

Posted by .com 2004-04-12 12:13:00 AM|| 2004-04-12 12:13:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#40 "I think Iraq is better off without rape rooms, gassing of Kurds, terror squads and torture. You don't see any difference"

Nope, I do see a quite big difference between an Iraq having those thing and an Iraq that doesn't have them.

It's just that you've not yet succeeded in accomplishing the latter, and the more time passes with Sadr growing in strength, the less likely it seems likely you'll ever succeed in accomplishing it. In which case count the civilians dying as collateral damage, and it's not at all certain they'd be any less than the civilians that'd have been killed in the equivalent time by Saddam. The US had a much nobler cause ofcourse, but this doesn't make the dead people any less dead. And the outcome -- as bad as before for the Iraqi people, and possibly worse. Before they had tyranny, now (if Sadr prevails, or if Iraq is divided) they may have tyranny *and* an unending civil war.

Cadre seems to believe in Twain's position (if that was indeed Twain's position, I've not read the actual book) that this is always the result of warfare, that invasion and outside intervention can't ever actually manage to change anything for the better, that things always revert back to as-bad-as-they-were.

I disagree and feel that it can, that it was simply in *this* case, the case of Iraq, that it seems doomed to fail but that this doesn't necessarily mean that war can't be used at all to overthrow dictators and alleviate suffering. I supported the invasion of Afghanistan, remember? And I supported invading Syria instead of Iraq, remember? You wouldn't have three uncontrollable borders in that case, nor have to juggle between three different ethnic groups...

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-04-12 12:38:31 AM|| 2004-04-12 12:38:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#41 .com - lol! I didn't really mean it that way, I just wanted to make a point.

Aris - wow, an actual civil discussion. However, I really don't think it changes anything except the tone with which we are discussing it.

I can accept this as an argument:I disagree and feel that it can, that it was simply in *this* case, the case of Iraq, that it seems doomed to fail but that this doesn't necessarily mean that war can't be used at all to overthrow dictators and alleviate suffering. I supported the invasion of Afghanistan, remember? And I supported invading Syria instead of Iraq, remember? You wouldn't have three uncontrollable borders in that case, nor have to juggle between three different ethnic groups...

Ok...it's an argument that can be made - I just think it's an inhumane one.

Iraq is better off with the Americans ridding it of Sadaam's horrors. Iraq could have democracy if everyone would help. But instead, people like you are damned and determined to put your anti-Americanism and political stances on a higher pedestal than to assist in the efforts to help the Americans form a democracy in Iraq. You do so at the expense of the Iraqi people. Say what you want to whitewash it, but You GLADLY wave away the horrors of Sadaam and point fingers of blame in every direction but your own.

You keep saying that you don't mean it that way, but you do. Your rhetorical hair-splitting may give you comfort, but it doesn't change your willingness to subvert rather than assist the efforts for a free Iraq. It' will be your own bad karma someday, I won't have it be my own by standing by and allowing you to wave away the horrors unchallenged.

Posted by B 2004-04-12 6:55:00 AM|| 2004-04-12 6:55:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#42 Yeouch, glad I stepped out for a beer. Where'd all the broken glass come from? ;-)

B- Your characterization in #13 - LOL! It IS typical NPR, isn't it?

Aris, thanks for the response. Important distinction in re the undesirability of *all* vs *any particular* warfare. And I agree that Cadre wants us to regard any warfare as "mass murder." To me that's dishonest. And it also cheapens the term, leaving us nothing to describe the *real* mass-murderers, when they turn up.

Posted by Old Grouch 2004-04-12 3:45:10 PM|| 2004-04-12 3:45:10 PM|| Front Page Top

08:48 Gentle
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00:38 Aris Katsaris
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00:13 .com
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23:59 .com
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23:53 Aris Katsaris