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2004-06-25 Europe
WND: in France OK to insult women, but not Homosexuals
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Posted by Super Hose 2004-06-25 4:08:43 AM|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 "Calling someone a dirty dyke or a fag would become a serious insult in legal terms while there would be no punishment for calling someone a whore or a slut,"

"Whore" and "slut" aren't by themselves sexist insults, though they are occasionally used as such. Usually it refers to only a particular type of women, not to mention that men can also be whorish and slutty.

"Cunt" is a sexist insult.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-06-25 9:20:15 AM||   2004-06-25 9:20:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 I'm surprised you've never heard "cunt" used to describe a man, Aris.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-06-25 10:13:53 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com]  2004-06-25 10:13:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Quelle stupidite. Of course whore and slut are sexist insults. They play on an out-of-date double standard that sexually active men withe multiple partners are normal and sexually active women who do the same are abnormal. (BTW, I am not endorsing or trashing either.)

Any man who calls women whores and sluts and at the same time has an active and varied sex life-just who is he having sex with, blow up dolls? Other men? Animals? Himself alone?
Posted by jules 187 2004-06-25 10:38:36 AM||   2004-06-25 10:38:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 LOL RC *Rimshot* very subtle
Posted by Frank G  2004-06-25 10:46:51 AM||   2004-06-25 10:46:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 jules> "Any man who calls women whores and sluts and at the same time has an active and varied sex life-"

Not sure if you are joking or not, but you're describing a matter of hypocrisy, not of sexism per se, even if such hypocrisy can derive *from* sexism.

As for "active and varied" that's relative, don't you think? Some people may think serial monogamy to be moral, even as they might oppose sex-for-economic-benefits (whorish) or being unfaithful or participating in orgies (sluttish).

Fact remains that "slut" and "whore" are insults referring to behaviour, rather than gender alone. Women are as likely (or even more so) to use them as insult against other women as mysogynic men are.

If there's sexism in them, it's probably in the sense that that they feel odd when applied to men. Still "manwhore" exist's as a word, I believe.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-06-25 11:05:01 AM||   2004-06-25 11:05:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 That was mean spirited RC.
Sounds like something Churchill would say.
Posted by Shipman 2004-06-25 11:54:18 AM||   2004-06-25 11:54:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Fact remains that "slut" and "whore" are insults referring to behaviour, rather than gender alone.

True, but I don't recall one situation in which its use reflected badly on a man whereas all instances I can think of where it is used against a woman reflect a negative connotation. Still, that is only my experience; maybe some other women on the site have something to add?

Insults only have meaning based on the norms and values of a society, wouldn't you say?

Women are as likely (or even more so) to use them as insult against other women as mysogynic men are.

I agree with you completely there. Women can be horrible to each other, although I think it is getting slowly better as women find other ways of feeling good about themselves rather than putting down other women.
Posted by jules 187 2004-06-25 12:22:20 PM||   2004-06-25 12:22:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Hate speech laws are patently stupid. They are anti-freedom of speech. They represent just more incidious socialist inspired gov't control of individuals and selective control at that. I am equal to a gay male but the French government sees gay males as more precious with this kind of law in place. I can be insulted every which way, but a gendarme will not come to my assistence.

A thought is not a deed. And individuals should be judged for their individual actions. If a person is so weak willed to be incited to commit murderous acts against an individual, then that person is a loose cannon and should be the one put away.

Hate speech laws to protect homosexuals, visible minorities, Jews, Muslims are all nonsense and I resent the fact that people in aforementioned groups are elevated to a special status and more worthy of government protection than ordinary folks like me who go through life having to put up with insults and to deal with it on our own.
Posted by rex 2004-06-25 1:14:05 PM||   2004-06-25 1:14:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Um, rex, insults are one thing, but if everywhere you went you heard that you are sub-human and should be exterminated, you'd want some kind of protection. Especially if you were in the minority. Do you know how many weak willed people exist in the world? A lot. Do you know how many people believe what they are told without thinking for themselves? More than a lot.
Posted by Rafael 2004-06-25 2:10:55 PM||   2004-06-25 2:10:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 really cannot help if a weak willed person will believe whatever they are told - freedom of speech is more important ... i for one do not what thought police - govt telling me what i can think..now if a person acts on his/her thoughts that is another matter..but we cannot protect the minority by stiffling freedom of speech...be they extreme left or right...even wannabe nazi trash have a right to express themselves... give me the mob over socialist thought police any day...
Posted by Dan 2004-06-25 2:50:04 PM||   2004-06-25 2:50:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Actually, #9, I believe that free speech is one of the greatest fundamental freedoms of the free world and any erosion of that right will have far greater consequences long term than we care to imagine.

My mother left her country of birth with the clothes on her back [some her relatives were not so lucky] when she was 26 years old so I am intimately familiar with the consequences of violent actions undertaken by a group who sees itself superior to another group it views as being "subhuman." Hate laws would not have helped my mother. In her new country, once she learned English, she dearly valued freedom of speech and taught me that the enemy to an individual's freedom was government control. She was a smart lady.
Posted by rex 2004-06-25 2:58:41 PM||   2004-06-25 2:58:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Then you guys should have no problem with OBL calling for the murder of Americans.
I do not want freedom of speech to the extent where you can openly call for the murder of people. That's ridiculous.
Nobody is talking about thought police. Keep your thoughts to yourself if you're having urges to kill people. The moment you get up on a podium and express your opinion that certain people should be killed, that is the moment where you cross the line.
Posted by Rafael 2004-06-25 3:56:03 PM||   2004-06-25 3:56:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 "Um, rex, insults are one thing, but if everywhere you went you heard that you are sub-human and should be exterminated, you'd want some kind of protection."

To which I say: "Sticks and stones might break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

Rafael: Legal protection for actual crimes of violence already exists, but the kind of protection sought this way ends up supporting a fascist police state. People can say what they say. It's not a crime to be obnoxious to others--although it may be immoral or unkind (uh, welcome to planet Earth!).

The promoting of the idea of "homophobia" is part of the deconstructionist political/cultural goals of the left. Clearly, there is a miniscule minority of people (if there exists at all) who might have an actual "phobia" per se, of homosexuals (and if there was, their disorder would have been developed as a result of trauma in connection with a homosexual--hmm--guess I won't go there). Even if there were people with such phobias, most would seek avoidance of the feared object or person, rather than confrontation.

This is how the real deconstructionist game works: Because people don't like other people with mental disorders, the deconstructionists have hit on idea: link critiques of lifestyle (homosexuality) with something no one wants to be identified with (namely, mental disorders), and thus (ultimately) quash all discussion about, research of, and opposition to, the controversial lifestyle/belief in question.

By labeling all discussion and opposition as "phobic," many non-critically thinking people will go along with the idea, and out of a desire to protect oneself from a less than appealing label of mental illness, will decide that they do not want to be "homophobic," and thus will accept homosexuality unquestioned. The idea of "hate speech" is an extension of the same and works the same way.

BTW, pedophiles are pushing for the same "recognition" and "protection," of actions and behaviors, as are homosexuals that favor younger sex "partners." They are pushing for lowering the age of consent so that boys and girls can engage in sexual acts with them without fear of punishment for perpetrating crimes against minors. Some homosexuals and lesbians argue that children's sexuality is being repressed, and that children like having sexual encounters with adults, and that their right to do so, should be protected.

"The legislation, which parliament will consider next month, would make "incitement to discrimination, hatred or violence against a person on the basis of gender or sexual orientation " punishable by a year in prison and a fine of up to $54,000. "

Because sexuality is "plastic" in it's formative state, pedophiles argue it's not their fault that their "sexual orientation" falls in that direction, and some are using the same "biologically-based" argument that was so successful for the homosexuals.

(And actually, if you're going to hold to this reasoning, "homophobics" should be rallying for the same law to be applied to them, and should be filing anti-discrimination suits so that people who are guilty of "hate speech" against them are as severely punished. They have a mental disorder, after all. Or consider the need to prosecute "heterophobics"--i.e., homosexuals. I've read in gay magazines of gay's virulent hatred of heterosexuals and their stated determination to destroy heterosexual society).

It's all about who is going to control society and government, and how to effect that change.

The Islamists are also using the same argument parameters in their efforts to deconstruct Western civilization: they call it "Islamophobia / Arabophobia" (see yesterday's Rantburg). Of course, the Islamics consider infidels to be subhuman and think they should be exterminated EVERY SINGLE DAY, now don't they?

Posted by ex-lib 2004-06-25 4:21:14 PM||   2004-06-25 4:21:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Wow, you rock, ex-lib!
Posted by cingold 2004-06-25 4:39:14 PM||   2004-06-25 4:39:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 ex-lib> Have people really labelled homophobia a mental disorder? I admit that I've not heard this before. Is it just a strawman you have created?

And if the whole of your argument is based on the use of the stem "phobia", that's just the same word used for xenophobia as well. It simply means fear/hatred of, it doesn't explain what that fear is caused by.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-06-25 4:52:22 PM||   2004-06-25 4:52:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Legal protection for actual crimes of violence already exists, but the kind of protection sought this way ends up supporting a fascist police state. People can say what they say. It's not a crime to be obnoxious to others--although it may be immoral or unkind (uh, welcome to planet Earth!).
Well said, ex-lib!

Words of individuals did not slaughter Jews or Ukrainian farmers. Powerful controlling governments authorized the large scale murders. Individuals were paralyzed because of the enormous ubiquitous powers of the respective governmental apparatus.

To enable government to control what we as individuals say is the first step to sanctioning the rise of a Thought Police bureaucracy. Eroding the inner spirit of individuals to think and act freely as individuals creates an opportunity for a charismatic, albeit twisted, Hitler, Stalin, OBl to claim power over mindless, thoughtless sheeple.

In Canada, a nice happy country 50 years ago, is now a virtual police state with Language Commissar and "special" rights accorded to "special" people, which is causing alot of resentment. There are quotas for hiring French speaking and visible minorities to all government positions. Don Cherry, a colorful sports commentator made some crack about French Cdn. hockey players wearing hockey shields and comparing them to wusses and the Language Commisar was requested to investigate him. CBC has now instituted a 6 second delay for Don Cherry sportscasts, so they can censor anything that might be "insensitive." And still with Big Brother monitoring everything little peope say, Jewish synagogues are vandalized in Montreal.

You cannot legislate happy tolerant thoughts in people. You can legislate laws against criminal behavior.
Posted by rex 2004-06-25 5:09:09 PM||   2004-06-25 5:09:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 "Sticks and stones might break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

They hurt 6 million Jews 60 years ago. And I'm sure Germany had legal protection for actual crimes of violence as well.

I draw the line at the point where it is acceptable to say it is all right to murder for one reason or another. That is a sign of a sick society. Moreover, it is a sign of a sick society where such speech is tolerated. You don't have to look far to see examples of this.

Notice that my argument focuses on something much worse than "sexist and homophobic" remarks. I can agree with you on everything you said, up to where I drew the line (incitement of violence).
Posted by Rafael 2004-06-25 5:14:46 PM||   2004-06-25 5:14:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Aris,

The august American Psychological Association laments “the pervasive presence of societal homophobia and the lack of readily identifiable role models for positive gay or lesbian identity . . .” (see link, which is only one of many such examples), so ex-lib is not talking about a straw man. Maybe there are no societal deconstruction efforts going on in Greece, but it is pretty thick here in the U.S.

Also, it is pretty well known that a common outcome of trauma is the phobic response. For example, children can be “traumatized and have difficulty in school, become isolated from others and develop phobias.”
Posted by cingold 2004-06-25 5:15:55 PM||   2004-06-25 5:15:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Words of individuals did not slaughter Jews or Ukrainian farmers

Correct. They were words of one individual, mostly.

Rex, I live in Canada and I don't see this police state that you speak of.

Eroding the inner spirit of individuals to think and act freely as individuals creates an opportunity for a charismatic, albeit twisted, Hitler, Stalin, OBl to claim power over mindless, thoughtless sheeple.

I honestly do not believe that one has anything to do with the other. It is precisely where speech advocating the murder of people is tolerated that created the condition for a Hitler or Stalin to come to power. All you need is enough people to agree with him, and no one to stand up and say it is wrong.
Posted by Rafael 2004-06-25 5:24:29 PM||   2004-06-25 5:24:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 rex> I'm no psychologist, but the use of the words "societal hopophobia" indicate to me that homophobia was labelled as a societal problem rather than a mental disorder.

The paragraphs you quoted seems to describe the problem lesbian/gay teens have in the face of such societal homophobia -- which once again goes *against* your argument that it was labelled as mental disorder.

Mental disorders cause problems to the people suffering from them and their immediate families, they are not societal issues.

Maybe there are no societal deconstruction efforts going on in Greece, but it is pretty thick here in the U.S

Sure there are. For example there are lots and lots of people who try to claim that you can be Greek without being Eastern Orthodox. That being an atheist or a different religion is just as valid. There are people who *gasp* even want separation of church and state.

I'm all in favour of deconstructing things that we can do without.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-06-25 5:31:05 PM||   2004-06-25 5:31:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 My last post was meant for cingold, not rex.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-06-25 5:31:51 PM||   2004-06-25 5:31:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Rex, I live in Canada and I don't see this police state that you speak of.
If you don't see that in Canada, then the damage has already been done, Rafael. One of my siblings lives in Canada and I visit on business frequently. As well I have a nephew who works for CBC[barf] so I have seen the changes in Canada over the years and from different viewpoints. Trudeau was the high priest to start the demise of free thinking in Canada. Chretien was his altar boy and finished the job.

Rafael, if free thinking is so prevalent in Canada, why is it that you still have 100% state supported media[like Cuba]and FOX News is not allowed to be broadcast in Canada[like Cuba]?

It is precisely where speech advocating the murder of people is tolerated that created the condition for a Hitler or Stalin to come to power
What allowed Stalin and Hitler to flourish was that individualism and free thinking was outlawed and group think took hold...sheeple following orders kill not individuals who are allowed to exercise their minds and know right from wrong.

Who cares if some shaved head Nazi says kill rex in Hyde Park? Unless he tries to kill me he can shoot off his yap as much as he wants.Hate laws are not going to make this agenda driven nutbar like rex more-hate laws may even make him hate and resent rex more.
Posted by rex 2004-06-25 6:03:45 PM||   2004-06-25 6:03:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Who cares if some shaved head Nazi says kill rex in Hyde Park?

In that case, who cares if some guy named Osama says "hijack airplanes and throw them into skyscrapers"?

It seems to me there's a very thin line between inciting other people to violence, and being the orchestrator of a crime.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-06-25 6:09:48 PM||   2004-06-25 6:09:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Aris,

You and I are not talking about the same kind of deconstruction. You note the evolution of your culture away from a monarchial theocratic state (and hopefully more toward the model of being a free democratic republic, well grounded in western principles), while I am talking about those who wish to destroy my country’s culture. The deconstructionist LLL here in the U.S. has been in full swing for many years trying to pervade academia and public education, in most (if not all) disciplines, and has attempted to promote a form of moral, social, political, and intellectual relativism that is lethal to natural law and other absolutes -- and which tolerates no dissent.

Regarding “homophobia,” the links I posted for you were merely examples. More formally, you can go to the glossary associated with the APA website, which defines a phobia as: “A persistent and irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that is excessive and unreasonable, given the reality of the threat.” In DSM-IV-TR nosology, this is probably better stated as an Axis I - 300.00 mental disorder, Anxiety Disorder NOS, “disorders with . . . phobic avoidance that do not meet criteria for any specific Anxiety Disorder.” And, yes, psychological/psychiatric labels often are used in a political fashion (remember, psychology was the marriage of psychiatry and philosophy, and was formed as a discipline designed to eliminate the doctrine of vitalism).

If you want more “proof” of the LLL attempts to demonize disgust, by redefining it as a mental disorder, you can always read the amicus curiae Brief filed by the APA in the Campbell vs. Sunquist case. A brief excerpt:
the statute serves to stigmatize gay people as "deviants" and reinforces unfounded but widely held stereotypes about them. This process results in prejudice -- often called "homophobia" -- against lesbians and gay men. . . . A small group of gay people, however, do not successfully cope with the prejudice against their sexuality, and are more troubled and dysfunctional. This clinically observed psychological condition is known as "internalized homophobia." By stigmatizing gay people, the statute under review tends to foster internalized homophobia and its self-destructive effects.
I.e., disgust at deviance is prejudice -- which is a phobic mental disorder, and deviants who are mindful of that disgust (and experience guilt) are likewise phobic of themselves. Now, what does this kind of balderdash do to groups hosting websites like this site and this site, and are run by homosexuals leaving (or trying to leave) the homosexual lifestyle?
Posted by cingold 2004-06-25 6:19:54 PM||   2004-06-25 6:19:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 So Cingold, any Greek blood? :)
Posted by Shipman 2004-06-25 6:27:55 PM||   2004-06-25 6:27:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Nah, just an admirer of the holdouts on Mount Athos. These are the ones hated by those Aris hates, although Aris might not know that . . . : )
Posted by cingold 2004-06-25 6:34:01 PM||   2004-06-25 6:34:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Lookout Aris, you've got a lawyer on your tail, 6 o'clock high. Oh God, you've been hit. For God's sake, pull up, pull up! Bail-out, man, bail-out! Oh God, the humanity. Sniffle, sniffle, cry, cry..
Posted by Zpaz  2004-06-25 6:37:02 PM||   2004-06-25 6:37:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 don't even waste your time with aris
Posted by anon 2004-06-25 6:39:47 PM||   2004-06-25 6:39:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 It seems to me there's a very thin line between inciting other people to violence, and being the orchestrator of a crime.
Aris,OBL admitted to orchestrating 9/11. That means OBL confessed to organizing and paying for 9/11, contributing materially to terrorism, not merely yapping that some jihadists should do it.

Look as far as I am concerned, hate laws are designed to stifle the free speech of individuals so they can be more easily controlled by government. Hate speech laws are totally useless to protect society from larger than life monsters people like Stalin, Hitler, and OBL.

Can you imagine OBL being charged by Clinton or Blair for abusing hate speech laws? It never happened and for good reason. Hate speech laws are only meant to be enforced against little people like you and me to turn us into more acquiescent robots.
Posted by rex 2004-06-25 6:40:53 PM||   2004-06-25 6:40:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 In DSM-IV-TR nosology, this is probably better stated as an Axis I - 300.00 mental disorder

For Christmas sake, cingold, speak English.
Posted by Zpaz  2004-06-25 6:42:05 PM||   2004-06-25 6:42:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 cingold> I know full well that some people are trying to change society. I know full well that many people want to have homosexuality accepted in such a society.

I just don't see what's so horrific about all this. Not everyone is into conservatism of society -- some people need to be convinced that change is towards the worse rather than reject it in advance.

--

And as a sidenote, even if homophobia has been labelled a mental disorder by a few people in some obscure medical text (and needing many paragraphs to delve into it) -- I think you may be assured that more people are likely to consider homophobes to be simply jerks, rather than suffering from some mental disease. :-)

*humming* Gee, officer Krupke...

Anonymous Coward> Why don't you put a name to your posts?
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-06-25 7:05:10 PM||   2004-06-25 7:05:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 If you don't see that in Canada, then the damage has already been done

Your comparison regarding language laws in Canada is not fair because these laws were not borne out of hatred or of a police state. French Canadians do not hate English Canadians in the manner that most Palestinians hate Jews.
Neither are the changes in Canada that you mention the result of limited freedom of speech. They are the result of the same phenomena that you can see all over the world, mainly socialism.

As far as I am aware there is only one major state supported media channel here in Canada (the CBC). Unlike Cuba, there are other independant media outlets and providers. In fact, the two American channels that I have at home are CNN and MSNBC. I have no idea why FOX is not available, but in any case that is a question I have to ask of my cable company and not my government.

The interesting question regarding Nazi Germany is whether Germany would have followed the same path if it was not for Hitler. I believe it would not have. Like in a chemical reaction, Hitler was the catalyst. Without him, there would not have been persecution of Jews to the extent of putting them in gas chambers. Hate laws, if not taken to the realm of absurdity, would work to prevent such atrocities.
Posted by Rafael 2004-06-25 7:18:00 PM||   2004-06-25 7:18:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Rafael, the reason you do not have FOX News is because the CRTC, which controls media licensing and who are appointed at the sole discretion off the PM, have blocked cable channels from offering FOX News. That's called supressing intellectual freedom, censoring freedom of thought and speech by allowing the state[the government] to selectively shut down conservative media offerings in the country. That you did not know that the CRTC has such power and that the power behing the CRTC is at the discretion of one man is what I meant by "the damage" is already done. Robot acceptance of what you see and hear on radio/TV is what government loves in their population of sheeple.

The CBC has the lowest viewer ratings in Canada, around 10% or so of the population, whereas 100% of the population is mandated to support its existence. Statist control of the media is exactly what Lenin advocated, and here it is happening in your midst, and you see nothing wrong with it? Oh, it's socialism...and that's okay by you???

Hate speech laws-you haven't heard about Svend and Bill C250-so now it will be tricky for preachers to even quote from the Bible...oh yes, Svend said religious groups would never be prosecuted-don't be paranoid, said Svend and Svend's a man you can trust...

As for hate speech laws themselves came into existence, well Rafael, it was quite easy, because Trudeau, clever Marxist that he was, did not fully protect freedom of speech in Canada's Charter of Rights.

The constitutional provision that guarantees Freedom of expression in Canada is section 2(b) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Due to section 1 of the Charter, the so-called limitation clause, Canada's freedom of expression differs from the provision guaranteeing freedom of speech in the United States of America in a fundamental manner. The section 1 of the Charter states:

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. (emphasis added)
This section is double edged. First it implies that a limitation on freedom of speech can be justified if it is a reasonable limit. Conversely, it implies that a restriction can be invalidated if it is shown that it is not a reasonable limit. The former case has been used to uphold limits on legislation which are used to prevent hate speech...


As for Hitler, hate speech laws would not have protected the Jews. That's the wistful dream of every liberal - Kumbaye in the world- evil would not exist if there was just a bit more government control to legislate love and acceptance of one another...

Think about it. Let's look at Iraq a budding pluralistic "democracy", or at least in our dreams. You think if the new Iraq has hate speech laws enacted, suddenly Jews are going to be able to build mosques in Baghdad and gays are going to have their Gay Parades? I don't think so, Rafael.
Posted by rex 2004-06-25 7:56:47 PM||   2004-06-25 7:56:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Aris, there's no need to get caustic -- this is dialogue. I think that's what anon was referring to -- that you get kind of worked up and caustic.

OTH, I think some of what you are saying has merit, while I take issue with other things. For example, you write, "I know full well that many people want to have homosexuality accepted in such a society. I just don't see what's so horrific about all this."

There are websites hosted by homosexuals leaving (or trying to leave) the homosexual lifestyle, that and address the issue of homosexual orientation (e.g., this site and this site). If these people (who have first-hand experience with the homosexual lifestyle) see problems with the lifestyle, maybe we should too. My most basic point on this issue is that historical societal institutions (like marriage), childhood, and the military should not be used for social experiments. I also have serious political concerns, as I noted on a previous thread:
This whole subject is really about the deconstruction of socio-emotional cognitive concepts and schemas, and the traditions and mores honored worldwide and cross-culturally over millennia. My biggest beef with the current “homosexual” nature-versus-nurture dialogue is that it represents an attempt by the intellectually elite (and the intellectually dishonest) to redefine society and government in terms of their choosing -- and which happens to be pretty damn liberal. Most cultures, and most people, realize that the human sexual response is fairly plastic (I mean look how it can be molded into fetishes), but that doesn’t mean that atypical sexual response patterns are something any society should condone (toleration is a different matter). As I read Blackstone, to the extent the behavior is purely private, it remains a matter between the person and the Creator. To the extent it becomes public, the behavior is subject to the Rule of Law, and the traditions and mores of society.
Posted by cingold 2004-06-25 8:07:04 PM||   2004-06-25 8:07:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Cingold> If these people (who have first-hand experience with the homosexual lifestyle) see problems with the lifestyle, maybe we should too.

You'll find some people wanting to do or stop doing anything. Suicides want to leave life, some atheists become christians, some christians become muslim. The occasional republican may even turn democrat.

most basic point on this issue is that historical societal institutions (like marriage), childhood, and the military should not be used for social experiments

The military isn't a societal institution, it's a governmental institution, and so society changes first and the military second, as the people through the government order it to change. It's a tyranny when the military doesn't obey to society's changes.

Childhood unfortunately has always been used for social experiments by either the parents, the schools, or both.

And the historical heterosexual marriage will remain intact, and heterosexuals will be able to live out their life ignoring same-sex marriages to their heart's content. How can you call it "experimentation on a historic institution" when the people that'd be partaking on that historic institution won't be affected one bit?

*Easy divorces and remarriages* are the experimentation on a historic institution -- because it's those things that affect the lifes of married people, redefining the function and stability of marriages. If you want to preserve the sanctity of marriage, go after those things first, not same-sex weddings.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-06-25 8:25:21 PM||   2004-06-25 8:25:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 I was not aware that the CRTC specifically blocked cable channels from offering FOX News. If an American channel is blocked, I suspect it has more to do with Canadian content rules (which are stupid to begin with) than any attempt to block access to conservative media. That some person is blocking FOX News falls more into the realm of conspiracy theories and is near impossible to prove one way or the other. I have access to conservative news and nobody is chasing me around with a hatchet.

Statist control of the media is exactly what Lenin advocated, and here it is happening in your midst, and you see nothing wrong with it?

If there were no other news sources then I would see something wrong with it. I have no problem with a government controlling a news channel, I just wish they didn't do it with my money. But that's a different thing altogether.

so now it will be tricky for preachers to even quote from the Bible

No it will not. It will be tricky to write new material advocating violence against individuals.

As for Hitler, hate speech laws would not have protected the Jews.

Are you saying that Germans are inherently predisposed to violence against Jews? You are ignoring one fundamental aspect of human existance: people are easily agitated. Things don't just happen. They require a spark, and a suitable environment. Had there been some kind of break put on Hitler, perhaps millions of people would not have to die.
Posted by Rafael 2004-06-25 8:29:58 PM||   2004-06-25 8:29:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 You think if the new Iraq has hate speech laws enacted, suddenly Jews are going to be able to build mosques in Baghdad and gays are going to have their Gay Parades?

No, but perhaps a lot of would-be suicide bombers would be rotting in prison instead. Any tool that can be used against terrorists is a good thing.
Posted by Rafael 2004-06-25 8:36:20 PM||   2004-06-25 8:36:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 The CBC has the lowest viewer ratings in Canada

Given the Liberals' popularity over the past several years, and the pathological anti-Americanism that exists here, I'd say the ratings are actually quite high. Perhaps it is different in Western Canada. In which case, maybe I should move.
Posted by Rafael 2004-06-25 9:02:30 PM||   2004-06-25 9:02:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Oops, correction on #24: (remember, psychology was the marriage of psychiatry PHYSIOLOGY and philosophy, and was formed as a discipline designed to eliminate the doctrine of vitalism).

The (some say blood pact) sworn agreement to destroy vitalism, and replace it with common physiochemical explanations, appears to have been amongst Hermann Ludwig Ferdinand von Helmholtz, Justus von Liebig, Ernst Wilhelm von Brücke, and Emil Heinrich Du Bois-Reymond.
Posted by cingold 2004-06-25 9:56:31 PM||   2004-06-25 9:56:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Rafael, I cannot believe you actually believe that it's some kind of "conspiracy" theory that Chretien and the CRTC directly obstructed cable stations from offering FOX News.

You say you live in Canada, but it can't be for very long. Why don't you visit freedominion.ca or mapleleafweb.com and do a key word search on their forums under FOX or CRTC and educate yourself about how the Liberal Party of Canada has managed to control the "message" to Canadians. Cable channels have even collected petitions to lobby the CRTC about the popularity of listeners wanting to have legal access to FOX News and the CRTC has turned them down. And Canadian authorities have investigated and fined any citizen who has put up illegal satellite dishes to get FOX News channel. That's your "hatchet" if you want to know.

That you have no problem with a government controlling the media while at the same time you claim you are concerned about another Jewish Holocaust happening makes no sense. How Hitler managed to turn ordinary Germans against the Jews was through control of the media. Hitler appointed Joseph Goebbels to head the Ministry of Public Enlightenment in Germany and Goebbels was able to use newspapers, magazines, and radio to spread Nazism. "If you control people's thoughts, you control them." Stalin used government control of the media to accomplish his "re-writing" of history and selling of the big lies to promote himself as a great leader in Izvestia and Pravda. Government control of the media is nasty, Rafael, political science 101.

It will be tricky to write new material advocating violence against individuals.
What violence was being advocated against gays to justify Bill C-250? That's Svendian hogwash. There were no documented cases of hate talk against gays. But there have been documented cases of censorship against Canadian citizens who cannot properly follow the tenets of their religion that teaches them that homosexuality is a sin. Now Christian home schoolers in BC can no longer teach their own children that homosexuality is a sin. Now Christian Bed & Breakfast owners are required to rent out rooms to gay couples even though they find gay coupling offensive. Now Christian preses must accept advertising promoting homosexuality or be fined. Once again search Freedominion or Mapleleafweb for news articles and discussions.

Are you saying that Germans are inherently predisposed to violence against Jews?
No, where did you get that? I am offended that you would try to put words in my mouth.

Hitler came to power for a number of reasons, mainly economic. That ordinary Germans were suffering tremendously from the very harsh economic sanctions imposed on Germany after the Treaty of Versailles was a significant reason that a demoralized nation could be convinced that a scapegoat was responsible for their woes. Having hate speech laws in place would have done zero to prevent the rise of anti-semetic totalitarian rule by the Nazi Party.

Things don't just happen. They require a spark, and a suitable environment. Had there been some kind of break put on Hitler, perhaps millions of people would not have to die.
No kidding, things don't just happen. Maybe Rafeal, if you could have undone the Treaty of Versailles and told uber left wingnut Woodrow Wilson to take a hike and if you had sewn in some spine into Neville Chamberlain, the Holocaust would not have occurred. Hate speech laws are not one of the variables that would have been helpful.

Look Rafael, I'm not sure how old you are, I'm assuming you are young and naive. There has always been evil in the world. Whereas you seem to be focused on the 6 million Jews who died in the Holocaust, there have been various genocides oin addition to what Hitler did to the Jews in WWII all for different reasons but mainly because of the duality of good and evil that exists in the hearts of men and sometimes evil takes hold. The spark that it takes to give evil dominance is is always different, but usually it's because of a strong controlling government, and the paralysis of individuals.
examples:
a) 1937 to the end of WWII, the Japanese killed nearly 6 million Chinese

b) the Khumer Rouge killed 2.5 Million Cambodians

c)Stalin purposely starved 6 million Ukrainian farmers in one year. He created a "famine" in the Ukraine by ordering that food supplies be diverted to Russian industrial and military centers. He continued to slaughter Ukrainian peaseants in purges because Ukrainian nationalism was a threat to Soviet rule. Hitler similarly ordered the slaughter of Ukrainians - 100 Ukrainian civilians were to be shot for every German soldier killed. Here's a Ukrainian Canadian website that details the unspoken genocide of Ukrainian farmers by both Stalin and Hitler:
http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-19.html





Posted by rex 2004-06-25 10:44:41 PM||   2004-06-25 10:44:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 You say you live in Canada, but it can't be for very long.

22 years actually.
If the Canadian government is trying to control the message to Canadians, they are not doing a very good job. The proof of that is...me. I know what bullshit & propaganda looks like, believe me. I had a lot of experience with it being born in a communist country.
I still think you are confusing Canadian content rules with some supposed agenda to block Fox. I don't believe this for one bit, simply because I haven't heard of a backlash against the CRTC regarding Fox. It really must be a small group of people that are making a fuss.

That you have no problem with a government controlling the media...

See, this is your irrational distrust of any government coming through. We don't have that in Canada. Who cares if the government controls one news outlet or channel. They by no means control the "message", as you put it. No one is being brainwashed who doesn't want to be brainwashed.

Having hate speech laws in place would have done zero to prevent the rise of anti-semetic totalitarian rule by the Nazi Party.

Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. I'm sure there were a large number of non-Jewish Germans who didn't like the Nazi party. Had Hitler been nipped in the bud, a lot of lives would have been saved.

I'm assuming you are young and naive.

Very bad assumption. I can't believe that you would label someone naive for simply disagreeing with your opinion. The world does not revolve solely around your points of view, you know.
Posted by Rafael 2004-06-26 9:29:26 AM||   2004-06-26 9:29:26 AM|| Front Page Top

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