Article

2005-11-19 Home Front: Politix

Lawmakers Reject Immediate Iraq Withdrawal 403-3

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Steve White 2005-11-19 00:00|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Glad to know the vote was 3-403. But who are the 3 wankers that voted yes and why did 29 not vote (gutless, out of town,...)? At least 10 more Representatives voted on the rules preceding this vote. Why did they chicken out and not perform the duty they are paid to do? If they won't stand up and represent their districts, then resign and give back their paychecks.

Posted by ed 2005-11-19 00:07|| 2005-11-19 00:07|| Front Page Top

#2 Cynthia McKinney (4th Dist. GA), Jose Serrano (16th Dist. NY) & Henry Waxman (30th Dist. CA) were the "no" votes. The complete roll is available here.

Posted by AzCat 2005-11-19 00:40|| 2005-11-19 00:40|| Front Page Top

#3 Whoops, make that "yes" votes. I'm tired. ;)

Posted by AzCat 2005-11-19 00:42|| 2005-11-19 00:42|| Front Page Top

#4 A little turkey with that?

Posted by Captain America 2005-11-19 01:04|| 2005-11-19 01:04|| Front Page Top

#5 Aside from a certain nostalgia, I can't say that the demise of the MSM bothers me much. The Internet just gives us more perfect information, and the print journals can't match it.

I wish that I could say the same for the demise of Mainstream Politics (MSP?). Satirists from classical Greek times have realized that most deliberative bodies were essentially a sham, but with the Internet, it's just too embarrassing to let it go on. We are fact-checking these guys in near real time and what we're finding is that they're just a bunch of hollow men in empty suits. The Republicans are somewhat better than the Democrats since they are business oriented and enterprise has little patience for BS. But overall, the politicos are running scared. Their fear is evident in the shrillness of their tone and the panic which seems to be paralyzing them as each news crisis emerges.

What scares me is that the MSM can be easily replaced and except for the rather happy prospect of Maureen Dowd panhandling outside the Disney Store in Times Square, the fallout will be limited. MSP won't go down so easily. They control budgets and weapons and Armies of the Entitled and sewers and roads and schools. When MSP crashes, it goes down hard. The Democrats seem to have firmly allied themselves with MSP. They are in league with the cities (unproductive drains on our economy as the loss of New Orleans proves [I am truly sorry if you lost in hurricane Katrina, but cities are dying. It's tragic, but that cannot change the truth.]), the Entitled (they're the recipients of the part of the budget which we can't touch), and the intelligentsia.

I think that MSP ends when the suburbs, exurbs, and rural areas (all "blue") tire of supporting the "red" cities and their welfare bureaucracies and chattering class elites. The outcome of this can be either bloody or benign. Inshallah, as our mooselimb friends say, eh?

Posted by 11A5S 2005-11-19 01:07|| 2005-11-19 01:07|| Front Page Top

#6 San Fran Nan Paloozer did not give a yep vote...
What a cunt.
The idiot that brought this to the floor did not even give a yay vote....

The country will not even notice this huge victory for the Prez.
What a shame....

Posted by Long Hair Republican">Long Hair Republican 2005-11-19 01:46|| 2005-11-19 01:46|| Front Page Top

#7 What, Dennis the Menace Kucinich voted 'nay'? Sure he didn't get confused by the motion? LMAO!

Posted by spartacist">spartacist 2005-11-19 03:11|| 2005-11-19 03:11|| Front Page Top

#8 thanks but i can't eat that much turkey. ;)

/that took stones..as i screw up every linky i get my hands on.

Posted by Red Dog 2005-11-19 03:16|| 2005-11-19 03:16|| Front Page Top

#9 403 to 3 is another crushing defeat for the MSM and the Dem'wits
who tried to levitate representative John Murtha to the status of an irrefutable god.
"How dare you question the sage wisdom of this Vietnam War veteran war hero!",
has been the belicose cultic chant of the islamicist liberal elite
of the media and of the Washington politicians.
Almost every broadcast station I tuned to all week long sounded almost like
a Tom Daschle demonic induced accusation against those with whom I find morale comfort.
I was beginning to think the tribulation had arrived.
I thank God for the alternative media of talk radio with hosts like Hugh Hewitt
and Bill Bennett where I hear and learn there are other people out there who
are simple and genuine just like me who also are appalled buy the assault against
those who cherish conservative principles and ideological values over legalistic humanism.
Even if the MSM never admits this stunning vote of confidence,
it appears I was wrong as there now appears to be 403 congressmen who value the importance
of sticking it out in tough times by supporting our President and Commander in Chief
in the prosecution of this war on terrorism which has taken a real toll on our soldiers
fighting in the front lines of Iraq and especially the toll suffered by the families
who have lost a real deliverer to the powers of this world.
I still hold to the hope that in the end God will prevail and I will see my deliverer face to face.

Posted by Kristeen Kid 2005-11-19 04:57|| 2005-11-19 04:57|| Front Page Top

#10 This was a crushing defeat for the democrats. I think from the comments made during the debate that the dems plan to spin it as some mutation about how they don't support IMMEDIATE withdrawl but that they support withdrawl. Hey. Whatever.

Anyway you slice or dice or spin this the 403-3 vote exposed the total hypocrisy and weakness of the left's.

No word out yet in the fever swamps - but I'm sure by morning they will have rearranged the words and sentence structure of their talking points to make this sound like a success for the Democrats. The Kos Kids choir will sing the refrain and the MSM will repeat or ignore. But it was such a resounding defeat - it really doesn't matter. Score a big one for the good guys.

Posted by 2b 2005-11-19 05:33|| 2005-11-19 05:33|| Front Page Top

#11 MSP... that's got real legs, 11A5S... *kudos*

"When MSP crashes, it goes down hard."

I agree. I'll take "bloody" for $1000. CW-II, methinks.

Posted by .com 2005-11-19 06:12|| 2005-11-19 06:12|| Front Page Top

#12 .com, I'll take "bloody" for $1000. CW-II, methinks.

And el cubos will fight that with what... spitballs? ;-)

Posted by Sobiesky 2005-11-19 06:41|| 2005-11-19 06:41|| Front Page Top

#13 I've been taking perverse pleasure in wading through some fever swamps to see how the moonbats would react to this cold, hard, reality slap across the face.

As usual - the response seems to be denial and distortion. They are very quiet right now, but my suspicion that they will attempt to claim that Murtha's bill did not call for immediate withdrawl seems to be panning out.

Beware of your rabid moonbat friends - when cornered, they will fly right into your face and bite you.

Posted by 2b 2005-11-19 06:54|| 2005-11-19 06:54|| Front Page Top

#14 Beware of your rabid moonbat friends - when cornered, they will fly right into your face and bite you.

Well, how about an outreach... with a fist so the teeth that bite are preventively removed? ;-)

Posted by twobyfour 2005-11-19 07:24|| 2005-11-19 07:24|| Front Page Top

#15 "moonbats in the fever swamps" LOL, that perfectly
explains the democrats dilemna because their
constituents are on the kook fringe. They are
in a lot of trouble with their kook base after
this vote. Their far-leftist/liberal kook base want them to go
over the cliffs like modern day lemmings. They
look to their beloved francarabia for answers.
Hoist the white flag, surrender, and then cut
and run a la clinton in somalia. They're more
interested in defeating the hated America than
they are in defending Western Civilization.

Posted by Clolutle Slans5753 2005-11-19 08:01|| 2005-11-19 08:01|| Front Page Top

#16 Finally an opportunity for some direct action?

Posted by SR-71 2005-11-19 08:08|| 2005-11-19 08:08|| Front Page Top

#17 "And el cubos will fight that with what... spitballs? ;-)"

Heh, indeed - they're spit out of luck, lol.

Posted by .com 2005-11-19 08:14|| 2005-11-19 08:14|| Front Page Top

#18 They will fight it with nasty tv ads of maimed soldiers and Iraqi children.

They will propose outrageously irresponsible social benefit programs that the Repubs will have to veto.

They will use every lying, cheating, slimy tactic they can - and if we're not proactive against that they will win, because they don't give a damn about the truth, just about their own power and privilege.

Posted by true nuff 2005-11-19 08:18|| 2005-11-19 08:18|| Front Page Top

#19 Indeed, The Black-Hearted American Anti-American Vulture Elites will feed... on someone.

Posted by .com 2005-11-19 08:29|| 2005-11-19 08:29|| Front Page Top

#20 Hopefully .com, they will follow Zman model and return home to feed on their own. Purges!
Pass the popcorn.

Posted by Flinert Chutch5977 2005-11-19 08:42|| 2005-11-19 08:42|| Front Page Top

#21 The six who voted present were no better than the three who voted no:

Capuano, Michael E. (D) MA 8th
Clay, Wm. Lacy (D) MO 1st
Hinchey, Maurice D. (D) NY 22nd
McDermott, Jim (D) WA 7th
Nadler, Jerrold (D) NY 8th
Owens, Major R. (D) NY 11th

In putting together this list I found out there is a guy named OTTER in the House from the 1st Idaho District.

You guys up for a toga party?

Posted by Thravinter Wheath5635 2005-11-19 09:28|| 2005-11-19 09:28|| Front Page Top

#22 This was a crushing defeat for the democrats
But is this a victory for the men and women in Iraq. That's what's important. That they believe we care.

Posted by plainslow 2005-11-19 09:59|| 2005-11-19 09:59|| Front Page Top

#23 If there is a civil war, PD, it will be the shortest, most lopsided ever. The not-cities have the military, the food, power generating facilities, transportation and warehousing infrastructure, tech business, etc. The cities have masses of ill-educated immigrants and a pacifist intellectual elite. They've lost their industrial base. The one thing that they still have is the ports.

My hope is that this all turns out rather benignly in the US. Last night's vote proves that the "blue" urban areas have no power and that there are only a few "revolutionaries" willing to stand up to the "red" areas.

As a matter of fact, I think that most of the advantage of the collapse of MSP accrues to the US. We deal with change better than any other society. The collapse of MSP has pushed Europe to the brink of intifadah and overall political and social paralysis. Other societies like Asia and Latin America will fare even worse. Their class structures are just too rigid to deal with billions of people asking new questions and demanding news rights. Attempts to control the information flow will fail as the elites attempt to reinforce the socialist "narrative" (as is happening already in Europe and Latin America, e.g. Chavez) and cell phone and Internet-based information flow undermine it. Those societies have bought so completely into socialist memes, that when those memes are shown to finally have no ability to deliver what the newly informed want, socialism will completely collapse. The resulting chaos won't be pretty.

I've ignored Dar al Islam in this analysis. They are headed for their Allahdammerung. It's too much for them to take: Medieval, feudal societies colliding with the post modern Internet society. We need to prevent Islamist imperialist expansion (Europe!) that could prlong the eventual meltdown, contain the fallout (perhaps literally), and be there to control the energy assets. As such, Iraq is the prime operational center of gravity for controlling the oilfields. We need to stay there and maintain our naval dominance in the Persian Gulf.

Posted by 11A5S 2005-11-19 10:14|| 2005-11-19 10:14|| Front Page Top

#24 the rather happy prospect of Maureen Dowd panhandling outside the Disney Store in Times Square,

LOL!

.com You have to have combantants to have a civil war. The market will send proper signals to the elected bodies to get a grip/clue. Hardcore lefties are few and usually damn lazy.
And stinky too.

Posted by Shipman 2005-11-19 10:22|| 2005-11-19 10:22|| Front Page Top

#25 11A5S---
We need to prevent Islamist imperialist expansion (Europe!) that could prlong the eventual meltdown, contain the fallout (perhaps literally), and be there to control the energy assets.

Interesting comments. But how will we prevent Islamist expansion in Europe? We could set an example by our own behavior, encourage democratic institutions, but what else can we do? Maybe we can improve relations with eastern European countries, but I do not see what else we can do with countries like Spain, France, and Germany. It is really up to the people there. France rejected the EU ~~O&M Manual~~ Constitution because of the threat of them losing their socialist bennies, not because of issues of personal liberty and independence.

Posted by Alaska Paul">Alaska Paul 2005-11-19 10:41|| 2005-11-19 10:41|| Front Page Top

#26 It is interesting to note that Murtha voted against his own resolution. I think you can gauge just how sincere Murtha's intentions were in proposing the resolution from the way he voted.

Posted by Biff Wellington 2005-11-19 10:54|| 2005-11-19 10:54|| Front Page Top

#27 Not necessarily Given Murtha's (or any Democrats') political stripes, he'd vote against a 'Happy Birthday' resolution to himself if it'd damage him politically.

Posted by Pappy 2005-11-19 11:35|| 2005-11-19 11:35|| Front Page Top

#28 It is interesting to note that Murtha voted against his own resolution. I think you can gauge just how sincere Murtha's intentions were in proposing the resolution from the way he voted.

In the weird world of progressive politics, Murtha had to vote against his amendment to show he was serious about cutting and running. To have done otherwise would have made him look double-extra funny with Cynthia (D-Biafra) and crew.

Posted by Shipman 2005-11-19 12:18|| 2005-11-19 12:18|| Front Page Top

#29 Yes, he had to kill his resolution in order to save it.

Posted by Shipman 2005-11-19 12:19|| 2005-11-19 12:19|| Front Page Top

#30 Final Score - Patriots 403, Morons 3.

Posted by Raj 2005-11-19 12:41|| 2005-11-19 12:41|| Front Page Top

#31 Murtha played a word game, kept saying immediate withdrawal, but his resolution didn't specify immediate withdrawal - swift withdrawal.

Via Discriminations:

"The battle on Friday came as Democrats accused Republicans of pulling a political stunt by moving toward a vote on a symbolic alternative to the resolution that Mr. Murtha offered on Thursday, calling for the swift withdrawal of American troops from Iraq. Democrats said the ploy distorted the meaning of Mr. Murtha's measure and left little time for meaningful debate. [Emphasis added]"

----

If some want some intellectual challenge, there's a guy over at Roger L. Simon's blog named
Shochu John who's debating Iraq and has links! He seems very obsessed with body count.

I've suggested his coming here would be illuminating.

Posted by anonymous2u 2005-11-19 12:41|| 2005-11-19 12:41|| Front Page Top

#32 Put it in perspective.
Murtha is Pelosi's CHIEF strategist on military matters.
The attempt to make him a saint failed when the Republicans pulled out more decorated saints and a POW to refute him.
The attempt to have him make all the speeches for phase 2 was a disaster for dems and him. I know they did this because in phase one it got so shrill a phyiscal fight was not far off. The dems couldn't trust their own to remain calm for phase2 so they called on Murtha to do all the talking. If they had not done so today you would have really intertaining vidcaps of moonbats foaming at the mouth.

You can bet the rabid left will blame Murtha for the failure and further fracture the dems. Pelosi will have to get a new advisor as the rest of the dems will shun Murtha and blame him for the defeat. Victimization at its best!

Pelosi was among the worst screamers last night. I was expecting her to have a heart attack.... Truely showed herself as a full fledged moonbat.

Posted by 3dc 2005-11-19 12:49|| 2005-11-19 12:49|| Front Page Top

#33 #29 Yes, he had to kill his resolution in order to save it.
Posted by: Shipman 2005-11-19 12:19

#28 It is interesting to note that Murtha voted against his own resolution. I think you can gauge just how sincere Murtha's intentions were in proposing the resolution from the way he voted.

In the weird world of progressive politics, Murtha had to vote against his amendment to show he was serious about cutting and running. To have done otherwise would have made him look double-extra funny with Cynthia (D-Biafra) and crew.

that be good all day

Posted by Red Dog 2005-11-19 12:56|| 2005-11-19 12:56|| Front Page Top

#34 The reason that Murtha voted against his own amendment is to give cover to entire democratic party who intends to pretend that Hunter's was different from his own. They had a very public display during the debate to clarify exactly what amendment was being voted on Hunter's or Murtha's.

The goal is to say that they don't support the war, but they voted nay because they do not support immediate withdrawl - as that would be bad. Expect them to go on about how Murtha's resolution provided "a plan" to withdraw.

And when they say that... tell them they are wrong and to look it up if they don't believe you.

Below is the actual wording from Murtha's resolution. There is much more vergarbage they can quote from, but this is meat of it right here. Read and remember - cause the Dem's have already chosen to pretend this is not what it said.

Therefore be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, that:

Section 1. The deployment of United States forces in Iraq, by direction of Congress, is hereby terminated and the forces involved are to be redeployed at the earliest practicable date.

Section 2. A quick-reaction U.S. force and an over-the-horizon presence of U.S Marines shall be deployed in the region.

Section 3. The United States of America shall pursue security and stability in Iraq through diplomacy

IS HEREBY TERMINATED.

It's on the record and we won't forget.

Posted by 2b 2005-11-19 13:22|| 2005-11-19 13:22|| Front Page Top

#35 plainsow: Excellent point!
But is this a victory for the men and women in Iraq. That's what's important. That they believe we care

Posted by 2b 2005-11-19 13:25|| 2005-11-19 13:25|| Front Page Top

#36 Last night circus just shows how much the Democrats hate our service men and women. I watched the debate on the rule. I know what I saw and heard. When you start out with 'I support or service men and women BUT...' You are a lying pile of anti-US cat crap. Most dems have no concept of us being in an actual WAR.

This will be marked as the start of the civil war. Being a Democrat means you hate our country and constitution. I just hope we can win a Civil War and the WoT at the same time.

Posted by Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom 2005-11-19 14:08|| 2005-11-19 14:08|| Front Page Top

#37 The video from last night will make a zillion attack ads in the next election.

Rep X says this about Iraq but when push came to shove voted to stay in Iraq. No matter what your position can you believe anything Rep X says?

Posted by 3dc 2005-11-19 15:01|| 2005-11-19 15:01|| Front Page Top

#38 The problem is 3dc that the MSM will have brainwashed the public that "Iraq is a quagmire" and a failure by then. That is the other half of the battle. The MSM and MSP are one and the same.

You can't defeat the left until we actaully have a free press we can trust and don't just pay lip service to one.

Posted by Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom 2005-11-19 15:19|| 2005-11-19 15:19|| Front Page Top

#39 3dc is right. How do you believe these guys.
They are like Rosanne Rosannadanna. "Never mind" once they realize what war is really like.

Posted by plainslow 2005-11-19 15:22|| 2005-11-19 15:22|| Front Page Top

#40 AP: Good question. I was taught that the four instruments of power are Diplomatic, Informational, Military and Economic. What levers do we find abmong those four categories to use to influence European behavior?

Diplomatic: Use existing human rights treaties to pressure the Euros to treat their minorities as full citizens instead of low wage servants to be tossed away when the economy contracts. Stop giving them a pass. Every time they criticize us for some imaginary human rights abuse, hit them back twice as hard with real evidence of their very real apartheid policies.

Informational: The other part of the human tragedy in Europe is the way the elites prevent even their own people from exercising their rights and realizing their full potential. You can't open a small business because the laws are too restrictive. You can't own a gun to protect yourself because that would lead to violence.* You have to live in a crappy apartment in the city because if we let you build a house in the suburbs, that might piss off Jose Bove or something. Maybe we need Radio Free Europe again. I keep seeing these European voices on the Internet that want US style freedoms. We need to support them. We need to give them a 50 KW microphone or a 50 GHz internet connection to tell the rest of the Euros the truth and drown out their ridiculous elites.

Economic: Use the WTO and direct economic pressure to open the Continent to entrepreneurship, free markets, and free choice. Some of this will involve house cleaning on our part. We need to end agricultural subsidies and some of our military subsidies.

The goal of the above three instruments is to create a yeoman economy and polity: many small freeholders who will drive the growth needed to create the jobs for the immigrants and assimiliate them... to create opportunities for their own kids so that fertile couples will even be willing to have children. If the diplomatic, economic and informational instruments fail, then the last resort is the military instrument.

Military: We should maintain a military presence on the continent. We should continue to work with continental armies to train officers and NCOs in US values and tactics and to maintain relationships with them in case the situation spirals out of control. We should be prepared to intervene in the very last resort to prevent the establishment of autonomous areas or an actual country takeover.

As I'm sure you understand AP, this is a very rough draft. All kinds of policy decisions have to be made in support of such a program. To what degree is it covert or overt? How far do we push the elites? Do we stop funding kids to come here and study and start funding our own "madrassahs" (private universities and colleges) in Europe? How much risk do we assume in that we might cause a patriotic backlash from the very people we are trying to empower? Etc....

Some people here probably will say screw the Euros. A very large part of me would like to say that, too. But we cannot allow Europe to fall into the hands of Islam. The European elites want to rule as very benevolent masters. The Arabs are much, much better masters. They understand that in order to be an effective master, one has to be cruel sometimes as well as benevolent. Left alone, they will win. The only way we win is to get the sheep to look up. Call it Americanism, or Thatcherism, or Anglo-Saxon capitalism, if we don't bring it to Europe, we suffer a major set back.

*I personally believe that gun ownership does lead to more violence. Witness the lower US crime rate and the higher US murder rate in comparison to European rates. But it is a _risk_ that I and most Americans are willing to accept since the alternative is a society of sheep. Paraphrasing Gibbon: an armed gentry is the guaranteur of Liberty.

Posted by 11A5S 2005-11-19 18:48|| 2005-11-19 18:48|| Front Page Top

#41 But we cannot allow Europe to fall into the hands of Islam

I agree with you, 11, but I really don't think that there is anything we can do - except offer moral support - and perhaps attempt to publicize some common sense. This time it seems they will have to save themselves.

Posted by 2b 2005-11-19 19:36|| 2005-11-19 19:36|| Front Page Top

#42 If Bat Yeor is correct, Eurabia is a self-inflicted wound, and the culmination of planned policies starting in late 70's. In that light, anti-Americanism is predictable. Perhaps Eastern Europe will save their bacon, but the French and the Germans are merely getting what they asked for. Britain puzzles me. While Blair has been a good ally, he continues to push EU (Eurabian) alignment.

Posted by SR-71 2005-11-19 20:12|| 2005-11-19 20:12|| Front Page Top

#43 I M sorry, but if someone says "don't bother voting on it" and you say "vote on it" and force a vote, then they agree with you, WHAT IS THE POINT?!!!!

Posted by OnlySaneAnonymouseLeft">OnlySaneAnonymouseLeft 2005-11-19 20:14|| deleted]">[deleted] 2005-11-19 20:14|| Front Page Top

#44 11A5S - Most excellent! If you have decent contacts in the US Govt, and possibly any relationships with any European military, you should pass that comment along to them. You would probably receive the usual professional cynicism, or even astonishment at your naivete, at first, but there's real meat on those bones. Even the hardcore careerists would admit it's got much to recommend it - assuming they're not part of our infected population of dhimmis. Multi-prong approaches that are complimentary - where progress in any area cross-reinforces the others - are well worth the effort. There's something in there for everyone with some expertise in one or more of the areas to digest. I share the knee-jerk to say fuck 'em, but setting aside my twitchy knees, well, it all sings. Thanks - a very thoughtful post. Surely we don't have to sit idly by and wait for the tipping points to come and watch the dominoes fall... I sadly note that TGA seems to have gone - this would be something he would find very interesting, I think. Again, Thx.

Posted by .com 2005-11-19 20:59|| 2005-11-19 20:59|| Front Page Top

#45 SR-71 - IIRC, like the US - many of the Euros are planning on massive immigration of non-national workers to sustain the current retirement payoffs promised to citizens. They can't afford to cut immigration or do massive deportations without endangering the balance of payouts in 5-10 yrs. Long term isn't in their picture....

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-11-19 21:23|| 2005-11-19 21:23|| Front Page Top

#46 Democrats are lying traitors and the sooner we start putting them up against walls and shooting them the better. I was in Chile when Allende went down. The Army knew they were preempting by about a week a purge of their leadership by the Communist-dominated government. The Left intended to put all the rightist military leaders they could catch to death. The Right just proved better at the Left's own game.
We're getting to that point here. If things don't change radically on the lefty side of the field, look for a civil war the next time a Demo president gets elected. If it's the Hildebeest, $5 will get you $50 that she doesn't make it out of her first year without being assassinated. She might well not make it six months. There are far too many people who see the Dems as they really are, and those are the people who have guns. They won't take the country being betrayed without a fight.

Posted by mac 2005-11-19 22:08|| 2005-11-19 22:08|| Front Page Top

#47 Cleanup on isle 46.

Posted by SR-71 2005-11-19 22:46|| 2005-11-19 22:46|| Front Page Top

#48 mac...not acceptable - I've been caught at it in the heat of the moment and rightfully rebuked (AOS dammit). Beat the f&*k out of them in the ballots, courts, retake control of academia and standards of learning, and retake public streets (without undue physical action - fire hoses in trade-pact season welcome)...isn't that a full enough plate and still stay America

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-11-19 22:54|| 2005-11-19 22:54|| Front Page Top

#49 I disassociate my self from any talk of assasinations of elected US officals for any reason what so ever.

Posted by Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom 2005-11-19 23:08|| 2005-11-19 23:08|| Front Page Top

#50 Alas, PD. I'm just a schlub with an Internet connection. I've made a couple of attempts since 9/11 to get into a position where I could influence policy without any success.

You know, from 1945 to 1960, we really did put in place some amazing programs and policy that stopped communism cold. There was the Marshall Plan, the Truman Doctrine, the National Defense Highway Act, and the build up of SAC among many others. The types of things that I propose would be achievable in those days. I don't need to describe the kind of bitching and carping we'd get from the left if we tried the same thing today.

I deeply believe that the best way to outmaneuver a zero-sum thinking enemy is through a non-zero-sum solution. If we go to war, we haven't failed, but we haven't made the most of our opportunities. I'm not ready to give up. I don't think I'll ever get to that point.

Posted by 11A5S 2005-11-19 23:16|| 2005-11-19 23:16|| Front Page Top

#51 "bring me a schluberry!"anytime, 11A5S!

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-11-19 23:38|| 2005-11-19 23:38|| Front Page Top

23:56 Zenster
23:54 buwaya
23:53 Zenster
23:48 Zenster
23:38 Frank G
23:16 11A5S
23:08 Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom
23:03 DMFD
22:58 Frank G
22:54 Frank G
22:49 Frank G
22:46 SR-71
22:41 Old Patriot
22:34 RG
22:33 Sgt. Mom
22:31 Frank G
22:29 Frank G
22:28 Old Patriot
22:11 2b
22:09 phil_b
22:08 2b
22:08 mac
22:01 gromgoru
21:55 gromgoru