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2006-02-19 Home Front: Culture Wars
Islamic truths
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Posted by Steve White 2006-02-19 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Sorry, Steve. I've given up hope. I don't even trust people like Ijaz; he's just one more Muzzy using taqqiyya. Screw the lot of them; they constitute a clear and present danger to national security. I want to see mass deportations from America and the West and Iran a smoking black radioactive glass sheet.

The world needs to be deislamicized the same way it was denazified after 1945 and the sooner we get started the better. Unfortunately for us we'll have to have another 9-11--or worse--before the national will to make that happen manifests itself. Even then, we'll probably have to do serious damage to our own freedoms; we'll have to either lock up or execute the lefti/tranzi idiots that comprise most of the Democratic Party because they constitute a very dangerous fifth column in our midst.

I see it getting very ugly in the next three to five years and I strongly suggest that any 'Burgers who haven't started buying guns, ammo, food and getting to know their neighbors well start doing so immediately. Private citizens are running out of time to prepare for the apparently inevitable and those who aren't prepared are going to pay a high and bitter price.
Posted by mac 2006-02-19 08:06||   2006-02-19 08:06|| Front Page Top

#2 Ijaz is still living with the internal contradictions of his religion.

for example he somehow believes the west is the one that can demonstrate true islamas in this,

"...The West would win a lot of hearts and minds if it only showed Islam as it really is — telling the story, for example, that the prophet Muhammad was one of the great commodity traders of all time because he based his dealings on uniquely Muslim values..."

and he doesn't even understand his own prophet as in this,

"... or that the reason he had multiple wives was not for the sake of sex but to give proper homes to the children of women made widows during a time of war."

he had about a dozen wives through connections with his followers; he also had about a dozen wives that he got when his gangsters massacred the men of other tribes and in addition to this he had another dozen or two sex slaves.

What I like to ask Moslems is "Gee with so many wives and being the greatest fellow who ever lived, its remarkable that he had no sons and only one daughter."
Posted by mhw 2006-02-19 10:12||   2006-02-19 10:12|| Front Page Top

#3 "to give proper homes to the children of women made widows during a time of war"
If Mo (PTUI) had not incited those wars, there wouldn't have been so many dead husbands and fathers.
Posted by Darrell 2006-02-19 10:35||   2006-02-19 10:35|| Front Page Top

#4 here is a quote by Robert Spencer over at http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

"...Unfortunately, Mr. Ijaz seems to be a man between worlds; his loyalty subject to the claims of both. Eventually, I believe, he will be forced to choose; and it is that very choice he seeks to avoid by writing these kinds of pieces."
Posted by mhw 2006-02-19 11:28||   2006-02-19 11:28|| Front Page Top

#5 I don't even trust people like Ijaz; he's just one more Muzzy using taqqiyya.

Progress indeed. I've learned what taqqiyya means. How obscure would that have been 4 years ago?
Posted by 6 2006-02-19 11:35||   2006-02-19 11:35|| Front Page Top

#6 to give proper homes to the children of women made widows during a time of war

That's a funny way to spell enslaved which is what Mo did to them - often after he and his gang murdered their husbands.

prophet Muhammad was one of the great commodity traders of all time because he based his dealings
The commody of cource was slaves and booty taken during one of his raids. Those the the unique muslim values he is talking about....
Posted by CrazyFool 2006-02-19 11:47||   2006-02-19 11:47|| Front Page Top

#7 I found his argument compelling and he should be given a platform. The idea that all Muslims, billions of them, are bad people and should be exterminated is fantasy at it's worst. Oh yeah, lets fire up those ovens so we that we can live in a peaceful world. bleah.

Ijaz has the answer to the problem that we face. Bring the Muslims and their religion into the 21st century. Get the good Muslim people to stop blaming "others" and start acting like a religion of peace.

You only need look to the West to see the number of idiots that can be rallied to support evil ideas like Communism or Nazism.

You want to talk about what we need to do to keep terrorists out of our midst - be they communist, fascist or islamist - count me in. Start talking about all Muslims as terrorists, count me out.
Posted by 2b 2006-02-19 11:53||   2006-02-19 11:53|| Front Page Top

#8 2b

basic problem 1:

there are a lot of bad muslims

basic problem 2: the bad muslims hide in communities of good muslims

basic problem 3: a good muslim can turn into a bad muslim simply by realizing that the good verses on the Koran have been abrogated by bad verses

basic problem 4: when a bad muslim blows up people, they are not healed by good muslims writing columns in the LA times.
Posted by mhw 2006-02-19 12:30||   2006-02-19 12:30|| Front Page Top

#9 I agree with you, mhw. But the only way out of this mess is to recognize that the solution is to bring the good Muslims on board to ideas that any human being can agree with and Ijaz is doing that here. I understand taqqiyya. But this seems sincere to me and I think we should applaud him and encourage other Muslims to adopt his ideas.
Posted by 2b 2006-02-19 12:38||   2006-02-19 12:38|| Front Page Top

#10 This is not Islam. And the faster its truest believers stand up and demonstrate its values and principles by actions, not words, the sooner a great religion will return to its rightful role as guide for nearly a quarter of humanity.

Four years since 9/11 -- the "truest believers" haven't stood up in noticeable numbers.

34 years since Munich -- the "truest believers" haven't stood up.

How many generations are we supposed to wait for these "truest believers" to stand up? Perhaps we should view Islam as akin to socialism: "Nice idea in theory, but the practice is always so screwed up it just makes things worse."
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2006-02-19 12:38|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2006-02-19 12:38|| Front Page Top

#11 2b -- Ijaz so horribly mis-states the history of Mohammed, how can you trust him on anything? Sure, Mo' married to help the widows and orphans left by wars... wars he started. Why didn't Ijaz mention that?

I don't trust anyone who plays the "Islam means peace" crap. It's a lie, and when I hear someone repeating that lie, I have to wonder what else the person's lying about.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2006-02-19 12:44|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2006-02-19 12:44|| Front Page Top

#12 Nice idea in theory, but the practice is always so screwed up it just makes things worse."

ok, I agree. But then what?

I've read your posts enough to know that you don't agree with mac's call for Iran a smoking black radioactive glass sheet.

This isn't a problem that is going to go away by demanding that Muslim's renounce their faith. I would wager that despite the protests and the media reports that most Muslims really don't like the idea of suicide bombers blowing up children in baby carriges.
Posted by 2b 2006-02-19 12:45||   2006-02-19 12:45|| Front Page Top

#13 2b, I too am trying to reconcile my Christian faith with what I believe we and the rest of the West are facing. I agree with you: I don't want to kill huge numbers, they cannot be forced to give up their faith, there are innocents etc. But the moderates, or truely faithful have been silent.

We need a plan now. If we continue to wait, the next war will be fought with nuclear weapons. I love my neighbor, but I love my own family more.

I hope that you or someone else can propose a plan that avoids the slaughter that I see looming.
Posted by SR-71">SR-71  2006-02-19 12:55||   2006-02-19 12:55|| Front Page Top

#14 I would wager that despite the protests and the media reports that most Muslims really don't like the idea of suicide bombers blowing up children in baby carriges.

Then they should stop supporting those who do. They should expose those who do.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2006-02-19 12:58|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2006-02-19 12:58|| Front Page Top

#15 Well said, SR-71. And I completely agree with you RC. I just don't think that the answer is to lump them all into one group.

Islam is a religion based on blame. I would go further and say that Mohammed, for power and greed, created a new religion that allowed him to do what Christianity does not - convert by the sword.

None of that matters. It is what it is. Now we need to move forward. I think Ijaz is sincere. We should support his efforts.

I don't have the answers. But I'm tired of hearing that we should just "get rid of them all". It's unrealistic.
Posted by 2b 2006-02-19 13:04||   2006-02-19 13:04|| Front Page Top

#16 2b or not 2b that is...
....the question remains whether Muslims revere Mo or are actually afraid of him.
Posted by Inspector Clueso 2006-02-19 13:06||   2006-02-19 13:06|| Front Page Top

#17 that's true, inspector. I'd say that we should look to Christianity to see what caused whites to stay silent to the abuses by the KKK. I'd wager it was fear. But the problem is that the KKK distorted Christianity and the Jihadists actually are adhereing to their faith.

That said, I still think that we are best served by appealing to the good in Muslim people. I believe that good and evil is found in each of us. When we sink to calling for extermination of good people, we become the ones who are evil.
Posted by 2b 2006-02-19 13:18||   2006-02-19 13:18|| Front Page Top

#18 the good v evil is not a 50/50 balance in all people. Rioting muslims may only be stupidly evil, but have redeaming qualities when they go home and kick the old lady in the burka? Don't buy into the idea all people have good in them...note the good muslim mom who is happy her sons were suicide bombers.
Posted by Inspector Clueso 2006-02-19 13:51||   2006-02-19 13:51|| Front Page Top

#19 This kind of debate (along with humor of a style I find that reminds me of my military past (USMC/USA)) is a great release for me. But let me pose a serious question. The challenge for those of us in the prevention business is to figure out how to craft domestic intelligence collection priorities regarding Muslims. Over and over again we encounter prohibitions against "profiling", yet daily I read reports and suspicious activities summaries from federal, state and local sources that paint a picture over and over again about suspicious activities at this mosque or that. Despite obvious radical elements in their place of worship, there is never a peep from the rest of the believers that attend the place. It seems like the overwhelming majority of followers are content to ignore out of fear or passively support radical activities, and their tacit support suggests that they cannot be relied upon to stop the clandestine activity. Couple that with an enormous amount of fund raising activity that flows overseas, and what can one conclude except that the MAJORITY of US Muslims are at least a passive threat?

Posted by JustAboutEnough!">JustAboutEnough!  2006-02-19 13:56||   2006-02-19 13:56|| Front Page Top

#20 I am sorry 2b, but I think we are going to fight a war that is like what we did to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, muslims seemed to want that war, I know we will win it I am just sad so many are going to die.
Posted by djohn66 2006-02-19 14:10||   2006-02-19 14:10|| Front Page Top

#21 but I think we are going to fight a war that is like what we did to Nazi Germany

sadily, you are probably right. But we will need the good Muslims to win. Iraq is proof of that. I'm not naive to the gravity of the problem that we face.

I'll just say that if the media worked in our favor - I think we could head this thing off. I really do. But instead - just like with communism - they stoke the fires of discontent and as a result, thousands will die. And then, after millions die, they will just sit back and say ... it's the West's fault.
Posted by 2b 2006-02-19 14:22||   2006-02-19 14:22|| Front Page Top

#22 "...what can one conclude except that the MAJORITY of US Muslims are at least a passive threat?"

Passive threat, at best-- and that's being extremely optimistic, IMO.

My kind of "moderate Muslim" is a Muslim who actively affirms, over and over to anyone who will listen, his absolute committment to fully support the Western (especially American) system of separation of church-- or mosque-- and state, and who works actively to drive out the extremist elements which have taken over his faith.

I have seen only a pitifully small number of such people since 9/11-- so few, in fact, that the number might as well be zero for all the help we can expect from them.

As far as I'm concerned, this notion of the "moderate Muslim" is nothing more than a pleasant, soothing falsehood concocted by well-intentioned people to keep from facing the reality of an Islam that constitutes a dire menace to our very survival.

JMHO...

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2006-02-19 14:25||   2006-02-19 14:25|| Front Page Top

#23  I would go further and say that Mohammed, for power and greed, created a new religion that allowed him to do what Christianity does not - convert by the sword.

Not to start that old religious argument again, but that statement is absurd, 2b. Christianity found plenty of converts at the point of the sword over the centuries, as well you know. That practice only stopped after the Thirty Years War in the 18th century of the Common Era.

What Mohammed did was found a new religion that allowed him to benefit personally from the those who did not convert at the point of the swords of himself and his robber gang. He'd hoped to benefit from pursuading the Jews that he was their long-awaited Messiah, and early on many in the region did think so (back when he was still praying in the direction of Jerusalem). But they fell away when he didn't usher in the Messianic Age and the restoration of the House of David to the throne in Jerusalem, and Mohammed never did forgive them for that.

I suspect (and I speak here as a North-Easterner and also a first generation American, so I have absolutely no solid data on which to base my conclusion -- therefore worth absolutely no more than the nothing you just paid to read it) that most Southern White Christians were silent about the activities of the KKK because they did not disapprove of them. That is, they had imbibed with their mother's milk the idea that the Blacks were naturally inferior, and that unless firmly suppressed would become a danger to themselves and others. And, while perhaps not entirely comfortable with individual actions against individuals known to themselves personally, rationalized the entirety as an uncomfortable necessity. In Nazi Germany there where many instances where people protected their Jewish friends, while merrily staging pogroms in the next community over... because those people were just Jooos.

Likewise, all those lovely Palestinian supporters justify the boomers because, as they are fond of saying, the Palestinians are victims of oppression. If Westerners can find such justification, what more do simple Muslims need to support passive acceptance? I agree that "Kill 'em all and let God sort it out," is both unworkable and evil. We cannot remove from the living over a billion people, most of whom passively accept the actions of perhaps as much as a few hundred thousand (nb: number pulled out of my hat, with no basis), even including those providing funds, and those rioting, raping, killing Christian schoolgirls, and pillaging local churches. We will have won when these passive supporters realize the cost of not objecting is too high. Which will take, I fear, a good deal of killing and destruction, flashed to television screens around the world.

The Muslim world must come to understand that, despite their clever manouvers in the UN and elsewhere, our armies cannot be stopped, and that Allah has no intention of helping them. The conquests of Afghanistan and Iraq were first stages of that lesson, but the world still thinks those victories can be rolled back by riots and rhetoric. They are wrong, because a simple majority of Americans (I don't think it's yet much more than that, but it suffices, and our numbers continue to grow -- the school kids took 9/11 personally) believes in the importance of this fight. And in Europe they are starting to see it, too, even if the politicians don't, yet.

But even if Europe does cave, I believe we can carry this fight on our own -- we know where the troops are barracked, we know where the leaders live, and we can rain destruction down upon them from beyond the horizon. The threats they hold -- dirty bombs, suicide bombers, even another oil boycott -- are none of them as dangerous to us as our hysterical media would like to believe. Even the 9/11 attacks, horrible as they were, killed only a few thousand in a country of several hundred million, stopped trading on the stock market for a few days, and cost the economy a few billion dollars. The attacks did not diminish our ability to defend ourselves, nor did they affect our cohesiveness as a society or significantly effect our productivity as the driver of the world economy.

We will win, it will get considerably uglier than it is now, but in the end Islam will be forced to join the modern world.

In the meantime, though, I think all mosques and Muslim organizations should be profiled until not a mouse squeeks in the basement that our intelligence services don't know about. ;-)
Posted by trailing wife 2006-02-19 14:38||   2006-02-19 14:38|| Front Page Top

#24 Bravo, TW.
Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2006-02-19 14:44||   2006-02-19 14:44|| Front Page Top

#25 Personally I think what we need is to get the articulate Islamic apologists on TV (and yes, their face will be pixilated and voice altered because of death threats).

Fox TV does have Robert Spencer on but needs to go the next step to have Ibn Warraq or Ali Sina or someone of that caliber on.

In the meantime, every month or so I write to the WaPo suggesting they have a column by an apostate.



I've written to the WaPo.
Posted by mhw 2006-02-19 14:47||   2006-02-19 14:47|| Front Page Top

#26 I said 'apologists' when I meant apostates.

Changing thoughts in midstream - sorry.
Posted by mhw 2006-02-19 14:48||   2006-02-19 14:48|| Front Page Top

#27 you make some good points, tw. First - your point is valid about the reasons that most whites stayed silent. It was no doubt a combination of fear of being ostracized as well as being indoctrinated to the belief that blacks were truly inferior. And to the problem that we face in that "moderate Muslims" share this same superiority mindset - you make an excellent point. However, Christianity as a religion had to be perverted to support both oppressing and killing one's neighbor, and Islam does not. I was using the example of the South as an example of something we might look to, to help bring good Muslims forward - while acknowledging the inherent problem that their texts condone bringing converts by the sword as well as not separating government from religion.

I'm not in the mood to defend Christianity. I believe Christ provided a path for a better way. That it's been abused throughout history to rally for poltical gain and greed is not news to me.

As for solutions, I agree that the Muslims will respong best to strength as well as some of the other points you made. I'm just tired of the exterminate them mentality - and as someone whose mother survived the holocaust, I know you are too.
Posted by 2b 2006-02-19 15:15||   2006-02-19 15:15|| Front Page Top

#28 2b, all the Abrahamic religions have bloody hands. Judaism's stage of conversion-by-conquest occurred under the Hasmoneans (the kings descended from Judah Maccabee of Hannukah fame's brother). One of the reasons King Herod was so hated by the Jews he ruled (besides certain unattractive personal habits, like murdering his wives and offspring), was that he was an Idumean (spelling?), and his ancestors had converted to Judaism at sword's point perhaps 150 years earlier. Christianity is not now what it chose to be in times past, when its leaders were seduced from Christ's path (as you put it so well) by the poisoned chalice of political power. The Christianity you follow is most certainly not of that kind, and I admire the strength with which you follow the dictates of your faith. You make the world a better place.

If Islam were understood as you understand Christianity, we wouldn't be in the midst of this war they started. It is my hope that at the end of this war, it will be. Even if the message of Islam must be twisted a bit from Mohammed's intention.

And I have faith, just as I have faith that the Arab section of the globe will not be made smoking glass at our hands, that we will not have to kill them all to accomplish this.

*Hug*?
Posted by trailing wife 2006-02-19 16:43||   2006-02-19 16:43|| Front Page Top

#29 I'm a little more cynical, sorry - 3000 yrs of servitude to the Caliph or Emperor or Sheikh or.... have beaten them into willful subjugation
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-02-19 17:38||   2006-02-19 17:38|| Front Page Top

#30 there are craaaazys about

jooos, christ's army and those funny looking lot that can't land aircraft

i'm off to shave my head...ohmmmmmmmm
Posted by jeeehovad 2006-02-19 19:16||   2006-02-19 19:16|| Front Page Top

#31 Thanks tw! Well said (and hugs :-) I've been out and thinking about this. And, I don't have much time but I want to say that I often refer to Christian principles as being that force which inspires us all to try to individually lift ourselves up. Christianity has been a strong force for good in the world, feeding the hungry, educating the masses, and teaching tolerance and forgiveness - above hate and revenge. But I don't mean to exclude Jews or atheists or others when I refer to it that way. Israel and Jewish communities, as well as other non-religious groups do that as well. And I'm sorry if I made it seem that I was implying it was exclusive - sometimes it's just easier, for the sake of brevity, to refer to ideas of Christ's teaching to encompass those ideals - but I've never meant to imply them as exclusive.

Israel is a excellent example of a society that also encompasses those same principals as well as Jewish communities world-wide. Discussions of religion always bring so much baggage with them.

But the point I'm always driving at is that what is different about the Muslim religion is that, with its emphasis on blame, humiliation and revenge it does not serve its adherents well.

It's much like our own media and liberal elites, with their obsession with assigning blame. Anything that goes wrong must be assigned blame. Not everyone in the world is fed? Must be the Joos or the white anglo saxon males to blame. No such thing as an accident anymore - must assign blame and jail time to actions that each one of us has probably been guilty of at some point in our life. Fat? Must be someone's fault. Lost your job? Blame The Man. It's self destructive and does nothing to help make the world a better place.

Jews, Christians and the west in general all have histories of state sponsored blood, rape and pillage. But we have moved forward towards a more civilized world. But the Muslim emphasis on blame and revenge and Sharia lock them into ideas whose time has long since past.

Mansoor Ijaz touches on this in this article and until the Muslims start to evaluate what is wrong in their own societies and make an effort we can't hope to win this war. But I feel the biggest problem that we face is that our own media and liberal elites - are no different. And they hold the megaphone that encourages exactly what exacerbates the problem. The demand that immaculate pefection can not be obtained due to ___________ (insert your Satan here)....and if we could only eliminate all those __________(insert your Satan here) then Utopia would emerge.

Muslims are just people ill served by their religion. Among them are good and bad - just like in our own societies. To win this war, we must find a way to appeal to their better nature. We can't do it without them.
Posted by 2b 2006-02-19 21:00||   2006-02-19 21:00|| Front Page Top

#32 Not to beat the religion horse too much, but TW I think that you're right in that the RELIGIONS have bloody hands (all of them). BUT, I'd add, that if you look at the TRUE teachings of each religion, you'd see that Christ's teachings are 180 degrees from Big Mo's teachings. That's what worries me....as some here have more eloquently states...the muslims are TRULY following their "leader's" teachings and his lifestyle. I won't pretend to even begin to speak for Judaism, but as for Christianity, those who have killed in Christ's name have DISTORTED His teachings. Those who do it in Mo's name follow his teachings to the "letter of the law." And, all, please don't give me the Crusades argument....after researching it, I've about come to the conclusion that their fight is our fight against the Muslims...truly defensive in nature, and I hope and pray that we don't have to go to those lengths, but if we do...I'm "down with it." I will turn the other cheek when you strike me, but strike my family and/or nation, don't expect me to hold back (and, personally, I don't believe Christ would either). A final point in this matter to me is oftentimes Sudan....I, for one, as a Christian, believe we should stop the genocide going on there and would shout from the rooftops if we could save those (majority) African Muslims from their Arab "overlords" (not to mention the Christians among them).
Posted by BA 2006-02-19 21:02||   2006-02-19 21:02|| Front Page Top

#33 Agreed, BA. Especially on the issue of the Crusades. The Crusades were preceded by nearly 500 years of Muslim conquest. The hot war with Islam ceased with the Hudna of 1683 after the Siege of Vienna. I believe that the present is only a continuation of the first 1000 years of war between Islam and everyone else.
Posted by SR-71">SR-71  2006-02-19 22:03||   2006-02-19 22:03|| Front Page Top

#34 My biggest fear is that by not stating the ugly truths -- the calm acceptance of jihadists by the mass of Muslims, the never-ending funding flowing from the general population of Muslims to the jihadists, the willingness of 40% of Britains Muslims to state in public they want sharia -- we're setting ourselves up for the ugliest of all possibilities.

Tolerating crap just gets you more crap. Eventually, something will snap; either there will be an atrocity that makes 9/11 fade into history, or the accumulation of small atrocities will push civilization's tolerance to the end. Putting a stop to the crap now will (hopefully) prevent that; either the moderates will be enheartened to finally stand up, or the cost of not being a moderate will be so high Islam will change on its own.

But the signs aren't good, even from the supposed moderates. Take this bit from Ijaz:

Take the money spent by any Middle Eastern royal family at a London hotel or Geneva resort during one month and you could build enough schools and medical clinics to take care of 1,000 Palestinian children for a year. Yet rather than educate and feed Palestinian and Muslim children so they may learn to settle differences through dialogue and debate, instead of by throwing rocks and wearing bombs, the Muslim "haves" put on a few telethons to raise paltry sums for the "have nots" to alleviate the guilt over their palatial gilded cages.


The fact is, Saudi and UN money flow to Palestinian schools. Practically floods into them.

And those schools teach jihad.

Does anyone think the curriculum would change if there was more Saudi money flowing in?

Why the focus on money that's not going in, while ignoring what's coming out of the schools that exist?

If your local school started teaching racial hatred and the glories of murder and death, would your focus be on its budget, or its message?
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2006-02-19 22:20|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2006-02-19 22:20|| Front Page Top

#35 If your local school started teaching racial hatred and the glories of murder and death, would your focus be on its budget, or its message?

Good point - as well as agree with BA we could/should stop the genocide in Sudan. It wouldn't be that hard to do if all western societies assisted whole-heartedly.

What bothers me the most is that if the western media would support the efforts to enlighten the Muslim world, instead of pandering to their victim mentality and blame the West mantra - then I think the rational Muslims would be able to find a voice that allows them to move from the 7th Century into the 21st. But our liberals and our media have the same blame/victim mentality and feed into their delusions of victory and will leave us as the liberals always leave us - with mountains of skulls left in their climb toward utopia.
Posted by 2b 2006-02-19 23:27||   2006-02-19 23:27|| Front Page Top

#36 Very true, Robert. Well said, all! You've given me much to think about.
Posted by trailing wife 2006-02-19 23:31||   2006-02-19 23:31|| Front Page Top

23:50 Sherry
23:49 3dc
23:31 trailing wife
23:27 2b
23:20 Old Patriot
23:03 Barbara Skolaut
22:40 Chuck Simmins
22:25 Frank G
22:22 Robert Crawford
22:20 Robert Crawford
22:20 Bomb-a-rama
22:03 Iblis
22:03 SR-71
22:00 Robert Crawford
21:59 Robert Crawford
21:56 Monsieur Moonbat
21:56 Robert Crawford
21:56 Robert Crawford
21:54 SR-71
21:52 phil_b
21:45 Besoeker
21:43 Besoeker
21:37 JosephMendiola
21:32 JosephMendiola









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