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2014-02-24 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia

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Posted by g(r)omgoru 2014-02-24 02:17|| || Front Page|| [5 views ] Top

#1 Count de Monet: It is said that the people are revolting
King Louis XVI : You said it. They stink on ice.
-- Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

Posted by OldSpook 2014-02-24 09:46|| 2014-02-24 09:46|| Front Page Top

#2 Grom I've had it up to here with you and your closeted bigot act. Look at who you are supporting. Your jackboots fit you just fine you f'ing bigot.

Posted by OldSpook 2014-02-24 09:56|| 2014-02-24 09:56|| Front Page Top

#3 You do realize you are supporting a despotic dictator over people who are asking for free and open elections, and a western democracy, don't you? They viewed the GERMNS (not necessarily the same things as Nazis) to get them out from underneath a genocidal maniac Stalin who had killed millions of them, or are you completely stupid and ignorant of the history of the Ukraine under Stalin? As for the other, please post credible proof of broad support for those other groups by people in the Western Ukraine. I think YOU have over (goose)stepped yourself on this with your continued backing of thugs and dictators in this conflict.

Posted by OldSpook 2014-02-24 09:58|| 2014-02-24 09:58|| Front Page Top

#4 The largely forgotten Holomordor of the Ukrainian people by Russian Communists is still deeply ingrained in their collective memory. A split from Russian influence would not be a surprising goal to me.
The media is so F-ed up and polarized now, it is probably impossible for us to know good guys from bad guys anymore without being there and seeing what is going on first hand.

Posted by bigjim-CA 2014-02-24 11:09|| 2014-02-24 11:09|| Front Page Top

#5 OldSpook I don't know if you are a moron, or just pretending to be one. And the truth, I don't really care. Just go and build a nation somewhere.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2014-02-24 12:57|| 2014-02-24 12:57|| Front Page Top

#6 Old Spook's not a moron, just see things we don't. (And that's Hospitable)
Ummm, sometimes, unavoidably.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2014-02-24 14:14|| 2014-02-24 14:14|| Front Page Top

#7 I'm going to side with Old Spook on this one. Now g(r)omgoru, follow along all the way to #7 please --

1) The Holomordor is as much a historical fact as the Holocaust and the Armenian genocide. I won't get into comparing the body counts; all three were horrific.

2) The Russians have long viewed the Ukrainians as their country-bumpkin cousins who had to be educated and controlled. The Ukrainians, most of them, have long wished to be rid of the Russians.

3) When the Germans rolled into the Ukraine in 1941 the Ukrainians, comparing what they had heard of the Germans with what they knew of Stalin and the commissars, viewed the Germans as liberators. Turns out they were wrong; Hitler had the same designs on them that Stalin had. But the Ukrainians didn't know that at first.

4) Since the 19th century, and especially since the end of WWII, the Russians (and then the Soviets) have sought to Russify the Ukraine for strategic reasons. The transfer of the Cossack/Tartar Crimea to Ukraine was part of this -- the Russians removed the Cossacks and Tartars to Central Asia and joined the Crimea to what then was considered to be "politically reliable" Ukraine.

5) This has led to the current paradox in the Ukraine: the north and west are more Ukrainian, the south and east are more Russian. These two sides simply don't and won't get along.

6) It's the west and north that is revolting against the politicians that the south and east managed to install in the last elections.

7) Finally, and here's the important part for you g(r)omgoru, most of the people who are revolting are NOT neo-Nazis, NOT fascists, and NOT planning to institute a national-socialist regime. They are simply fed up with the Russians and want nothing more to do with them. They want their own country, and they'd like to be Europeans, not Russians.

The Russians, for their part, are using tried-and-true propaganda against the revolution, referring to them as "fascists" and "nazis" and "counter-revolutionaries". They've labeled the Svoboda ("Freedom") party as anti-Semitic, fascist, and xenophobic. This is straight out of Stalin's playbook, and of course gullible westerners (and you) are falling for it.

Always, you'll find a small percentage of Ukrainians who ARE anti-Semitic. You'll also find a few French, a few Brits, and a few Americans (usually on American university campuses) who are also anti-Semitic. You can, if you wish, tar all of us with that brush if it makes you feel better.

But the people leading the way in the Ukraine today are not Nazis, and it's unseemly for you to say that they are. You should know better.

Posted by Steve White 2014-02-24 15:21|| 2014-02-24 15:21|| Front Page Top

#8 I can't speak for g(r)omgoru but if he's pissed off at the Euroweenies I think I can understand it. Do they not send money to Gaza? And, as far as I'm concerned, you can call the Gazookians anything you want. I wouldn't call them to dinner. Is the European Union not just a little overbearing and socialist? Are their immigration policies not ill advised? Are the Brits not wise to keep their distance from it? Speaking of Brits, there's a fellow named Roger Waters, who I used to admire, who advocates a boycott of Israel because the Juice are so mean to the Gazookians. Now Putin is gonna do what Putin is gonna do and Obama can wring his hands about it all he wants. From what I've been reading here I wonder if the best thing might be for eastern and western Ukrainians to seek an amicable divorce. But I think I can understand Putin's concern about NATO forces camping in Ukraine.

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2014-02-24 15:59|| 2014-02-24 15:59|| Front Page Top

#9 So much vitriol here, seemingly unusual for the Burg. EU6305 hints at it, but Spengler has been calling for partition for some years now.

Another bit of history to throw on the pile is the ongoing armed Ukranian revolt against the USSR which lasted for years finally subsiding in the mid-50s. It's overlooked in comparison with Hungary '56 and Czech '68.

Russia (i.e. Putin's) energy leverage may dwindle faster than most expect (hooray Keystone!) so he may not be able to simply force his will. May be worthwhile to negotiate a Black Sea presence and let it wither over time. Russia likely needs China as a customer over all else.

Posted by Halliburton - Mysterious Conspiracy Division 2014-02-24 18:09|| 2014-02-24 18:09|| Front Page Top

23:33 gorb
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23:13 JosephMendiola
22:59 JosephMendiola
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22:03 Charles
21:52 USN, Ret.
20:59 Barbara
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18:09 Halliburton - Mysterious Conspiracy Division
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