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Baghdad: Gunmen kidnap 10 anti-al-Qaida tribal leaders
Today's Headlines
Headline Comments [Views]
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-Short Attention Span Theater-
Ever wanted to declare your own jihad?
Posted by: ryuge || 10/29/2007 07:43 || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  No, I'm not a moon goddess follower.
Posted by: Icerigger || 10/29/2007 16:45 Comments || Top||

#2  Website > Jeebus, And I thought R. LEE ERMEY and I could be sarcastic andor obscene.
Posted by: JosephMendiola || 10/29/2007 18:28 Comments || Top||


Arabia
Arab parliament is proof of Arab leaders' belief in democracy -- Al-Saqer
Chairman of Arab Interim Parliament (AIP) Mohammad Jassem Al-Saqer said this parliament was proof of Arab leaders' belief and conviction in democracy and public participation in decision making.

Addressing AIP's second ordinary session which kicked off on Sunday at the headquarters of Egypt People's Assembly (EPA), Al-Saqer said the support of Arab leaders and public confidence were cornerstones for AIP's success.

AIP realizes that its success is based on regaining the trust of Arab citizens in joint Arab efforts, boosting democracy through practical means, as well as overall reform in all relevant sectors, he explained.

Achieving integration among Arab nations will speed their development and build a powerful economy that enjoys independence from all foreign influence, said Al-Saqer who noted that this integration requires cooperation between oil-producing nations and qualified workforce from highly-populated countries.

He said establishing an independent Palestinian state will rid the region of terrorism and the international community must adopt a fair policy without any double-standards to settle this issue.

On his part, Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa lauded the national role assumed by AIP through tackling various Arab issues in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, Sudan and Somalia.

In an address delivered by the league's Assistant Secretary-General for Palestinian Affairs Mohammad Sobeih, Moussa hoped AIP would meet Arab expectations through boosting development, reform and democracy.

This session, he added, is held during unprecedented challenges in the Middle East and Arab world with Palestine's situation and Arab-Israeli struggle taking the lead.

Arab nations hailed the initiative of US President George W. Bush to hold an international peace forum and a unified Arab stance was formulated to fully settle all relevant matters in accordance with a timetable, he said.

Moussa expressed concern over Israel's overall stance toward the peace process, such as statements by Israeli Premier Ehud Olmert and Foreign Minister Tzip Livni that peace with Palestinians would take 20-30 years and that Arabs had to either lower their expectation or accept Israel's offer of commencing normalizing ties without any progress in the peace process.

As for EPA's Speaker Dr. Ahmad Fathi Surour, he said Iraq's current situation was a serious turning point for the Arab world, as well as regional and international ties.

He warned that Iraq has become a battleground for all types of war between personal interests that do not serve that nation or the region.

He criticized the US Congress decision to divide Iraq into three sectarian and racial parts, adding that such a step contradicted international laws, as well as Iraq's sovereignty and independence.

During the past two days, AIP's permanent committees held meetings at the league's headquarters to prepare reports of matters that will be discussed today and tomorrow, such as the US Congress decision, Sudanese immigrants, water shortage in the Arab world, climate change, as well as regional nuclear issues.
Posted by: Seafarious || 10/29/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I fondly remember the election. One dictator, one vote.
Posted by: ed || 10/29/2007 12:05 Comments || Top||


Fifth Column
The School of Extreme Hatred (Islamic Saudi Academy, Fairfax VA)
Posted by: ed || 10/29/2007 12:37 || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  So where are the PC police on this one???
Posted by: 49 Pan || 10/29/2007 14:01 Comments || Top||

#2  As I've written before, I've been in this school. There is an eerie, eerie feeling that is pervasive throughout the building.

Walking the halls, there are no signs of "children" occupying the school. It's all religious symbols, some, colored by children.

It has a truly, dark feeling. We almost ran back to our car.... wanting to get out of there are quickly as possible!
Posted by: Sherry || 10/29/2007 14:04 Comments || Top||

#3  The school teaches:

That trusted friends can only be Muslim.

That even family members, if they are non-believers, have nothing in common with you and should be abandoned or ignored.

That people further away from you geographically and culturally are truly closer to you than the family you live with if your family does not believe.

That one should never establish a close and trusted friendship with a non-Muslim.


The Academy's chairman, no less, is Prince Turki al-Faisal, who is also Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the United States. For those of you who are unacquainted with this sleazebag, the following excerpts may be of interest:

Saudi envoy in UK linked to 9/11

But Turki is not what he seems. Behind him lies a murky tale of espionage, terrorism and torture. For, while Turki has many powerful friends among Britain's elite, he is no ordinary diplomat. Turki has now been served with legal papers by lawyers acting for relatives of the victims of 11 September.

They accuse him of funding and supporting Osama bin Laden. The Observer can also reveal that Turki has now admitted for the first time that Saudi interrogators have tortured six British citizens arrested in Saudi Arabia and accused of carrying out a bombing campaign.

Legal papers in the case obtained by The Observer make it clear that the allegations are serious and lengthy. Many centre around Turki's role as head of the Saudi intelligence agency. He held the post for 25 years before being replaced in 2001 just before the attacks on New York.

Turki admits to meeting bin Laden four or five times in the 1980s, when the Saudi-born terrorist was being supported by the West in Afghanistan. Turki also admits meeting Taliban leader Mullah Omar in 1998. He says he was seeking to extradite bin Laden at the request of the United States.

However, the legal papers tell a different story. Based on sworn testimony from a Taliban intelligence chief called Mullah Kakshar, they allege that Turki had two meetings in 1998 with al-Qaeda. They say that Turki helped seal a deal whereby al-Qaeda would not attack Saudi targets. In return, Saudi Arabia would make no demands for extradition or the closure of bin Laden's network of training camps. Turki also promised financial assistance to Mullah Omar. A few weeks after the meetings, 400 new pick-up vehicles arrived in Kandahar, the papers say.

Kakshar's statement also says that Turki arranged for donations to be made directly to al-Qaeda and bin Laden by a group of wealthy Saudi businessmen. 'Mullah Kakshar's sworn statement implicates Prince Turki as the facilitator of these money transfers in support of the Taliban, al-Qaeda and international terrorism,' the papers said.

Turki's link to one of al-Qaeda's top money- launderers, Mohammed Zouaydi, who lived in Saudi Arabia from 1996 to 2001, is also exposed. Zouaydi acted as the accountant for the Faisal branch of the Saudi royal family that includes Turki. Zouaydi, who is now in jail in Spain, is also accused of being al-Qaeda's top European financier. He distributed more than $1 million to al- Qaeda units, including the Hamburg cell of Mohammed Atta which plotted the World Trade Centre attack.

Finally the lawsuit alleges that Turki was 'instrumental' in setting up a meeting between bin Laden and senior Iraqi intelligence agent Faruq al-Hijazi in December 1998. At that meeting it is alleged that bin Laden agreed to avenge recent American bombings of Iraqi targets and in return Iraq offered him a safe haven and gave him blank Yemeni passports.


[emphasis added]

Thank the Bush administration's close ties to Saudi Arabia for this murderous scum-sucking bastard being on America soil. Turki should be dangling from the end of a noose.
Posted by: Zenster || 10/29/2007 14:05 Comments || Top||

#4  The collusion of our elites on the "right" and the "left" regarding the Saud terror entity is the greatest shame of our time. It is a conspiracy so overt that it remains invisible to non-Rantburgians everywhere.
Posted by: Excalibur || 10/29/2007 14:30 Comments || Top||

#5  I refuse to get highly worked up over this because -- as near as I can tell -- it's largely about the activities of a small group of graduates and some offensive passages in religious textbooks that have allegedly been purged. I welcome any evidence to the contrary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Saudi_Academy
http://www.theworld.org/?q=node/1279
http://www.theworld.org/files/images/3_2.jpg
http://www.saudiacademy.net/index.html

"It's all religious symbols, some, colored by children."
Sherry, I'd like to hear more about your visit because all of the pictures I've just looked through don't look much different than any Catholic school, just different faces and symbols.

"The Academy's chairman, no less, is Prince Turki al-Faisal, who is also Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the United States."
Is the Academy's chairman always Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the United States?

Turki is indeed unsavory at best and Bush should have insisted behind closed doors that he be replaced. This administration's public relationship with Saudi Arabia since 9/11 has been entirely unsatisfactory.

Posted by: Darrell || 10/29/2007 15:13 Comments || Top||

#6  Education should open doors, not slam islam them in someone else's face.
Posted by: Icerigger || 10/29/2007 16:36 Comments || Top||

#7  Had Adolph and Benito been more patient in the 1930's, and had they called national socialism a STATE religion (as opposed to a political philosophy), their dream for world domination would be There would be "schools & houses of worship" in the USA teaching their ideology and sponsored by the gov'ts of Germany and Italy. It's exactly what the Wahhabi schools and mosques of Saudi Arbia are doing tday and there is nothing the gov't in the USA can do to stop it.
Posted by: Mark Z || 10/29/2007 17:05 Comments || Top||

#8  We are not a sovereign country if we can't stop a foreign import, be it Saudi schools or Mexican illegals.
Posted by: Darrell || 10/29/2007 20:12 Comments || Top||


Home Front: WoT
Evil Exposed
HOLY LAND TRIAL SHOWS CHARITY'S HAMAS TIES
By STEVEN EMERSON

Excerpt:
Moreover, the trial uncovered numerous ugly secrets of Holy Land and its leaders. For starters, it exposed as lies their oft-made claims to not be supporting Hamas. The evidence clearly linked Holy Land and CAIR to Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood, the hard-line Egyptian Islamist umbrella group and godfather of every Sunni terrorist group from Hamas to al Qaeda.

Former Holy Land CEO Shukri Abu Baker, for example, told a Dallas Morning News reporter in 1996, "We were never associated with Hamas." Yet Baker's own credit-card bills show he and other Holy Land defendants repeatedly covered travel expenses for Hamas leaders - including Mohammed Siyam and Mahmud Zahar - in the early 1990s.
...
Overall, the transcript shows that Holy Land was an active player in a larger Muslim Brotherhood network aimed at organizing support in America for Hamas.

Also at the meeting were two men who would later be founders of CAIR - Omar Ahmad, the group's first chairman, and Nihad Awad, who is now its executive director.

Ahmad convened the Philadelphia gathering: "This meeting was called for by the Palestine Committee," he said, "in order to have a seminar or a meeting to the brothers present here today in order to study the situation in light of the latest developments on the Palestinian arena, its effects and impact on our work here in America."

The transcripts (from an FBI recording) make it clear that all present opposed any peaceful resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and, in fact, wanted a Palestinian state on the '48 borders, Palestinian code for the destruction of Israel:

Omar Ahmad: We've always demanded the 1948 territories. I mean, we demanded . . .

Unidentified speaker: Yes, but we don't say that publicly. You cannot say it publicly. In front of the Americans . . .

Ahmad: No, we didn't say that to the Americans.
Posted by: ed || 10/29/2007 12:31 || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:

#1  So, when do we start kicking some major CAIR hiney?
Posted by: Zenster || 10/29/2007 13:25 Comments || Top||

#2  The next time Keith Ellison comes up for re-election Zen!
Posted by: Icerigger || 10/29/2007 16:46 Comments || Top||


Mark Steyn: metaphor versus reality
. . . enjoyable as they are, pop-culture metaphors aren't really of much use, especially when you're up against cultures where life is still defined by how you live as opposed to what you experience via media. It seems to me, for example, that when anti-war types bemoan Iraq as this generation's Vietnam "quagmire," older folks are thinking of the real Vietnam – the Gulf of Tonkin resolution and whatnot – but most anybody under 50 is thinking of Vietnam movies: some vague video-store mélange of "The Full Metal Deer Apocalypse."

Take the Scott Thomas Beauchamp debacle at the New Republic, in which the magazine ran an atrocity-a-go-go Baghdad diary piece by a serving soldier about dehumanized troops desecrating graves, abusing disfigured women, etc. It smelled phony from the get-go – except to the professional media class from whose ranks the New Republic's editors are drawn: To them, it smelled great, because it aligned reality with the movie looping endlessly through the windmills of their mind, a nonstop Coppola-Stone retrospective in which ill-educated conscripts are the dupes of a nutso officer class.

It's the same with all those guys driving around with "9/11 Was An Inside Job" bumper stickers. That aligns reality with every conspiracy movie from the past three decades: It's always the government who did it – sometimes it's some supersecret agency working deep within the bureaucracy from behind an unassuming nameplate on a Washington street; and sometimes it's the president himself – but when poor Joe Schmoe on the lam from the Feds eventually unravels it, the cunning conspiracy is always the work of a ruthlessly efficient all-powerful state. So Iraq is Vietnam. And 9/11 is the Kennedy assassination, with ever higher percentages of the American people gathering on the melted steely knoll.

There's a kind of decadence about all this: If 9/11 was really an inside job, you wouldn't be driving around with a bumper sticker bragging that you were on to it. Fantasy is a by-product of security: it's the difference between hanging upside down in your dominatrix's bondage parlor after work on Friday and enduring the real thing for years on end in Saddam's prisons. . . .
Posted by: Mike || 10/29/2007 10:10 || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I like this part: "Happy the land for whom crossfire is purely televisual and metaphorical. But, when it turns real, it's important to know the difference."
Posted by: newc || 10/29/2007 11:24 Comments || Top||

#2  Actually there is a more sinister (and cowardly) aspect to the Left's retreat into fantasyland:

The real Jihad is terrifying, as are the other terroristic ideologies. All you have to do is read Michael Yon's article on what Al Qaeda would do to children and you'll have nightmares for a week.

Faced with this fear, (and very real danger) it is easier and safer to let out all your rage at someone (like Christians) who aren't going to kill you.

That is why the Left hates Bush so much. They can't admit they're afraid of those little brown people and they don't want to sound like a bunch of right wingers. They also don't want to admit they have no idea how to defend themselves.

So they define the problem as a rightwing conspiracy and then they can ignore the threat.

Al
Posted by: Frozen Al || 10/29/2007 18:50 Comments || Top||

#3  Steyn is always worth the read..
Posted by: Red Dawg || 10/29/2007 19:12 Comments || Top||


International-UN-NGOs
Why Arabs Lose Wars
Interesting opinion piece, in two parts, on the problems Arab armies have in beating a non-Arab foe. It's all about culture. Just the abstract here; the full article is way long.
Arabic-speaking armies have been generally ineffective in the modern era. Egyptian regular forces did poorly against Yemeni irregulars in the 1960s. Syrians could only impose their will in Lebanon during the mid-1970s by the use of overwhelming weaponry and numbers. Iraqis showed ineptness against an Iranian military ripped apart by revolutionary turmoil in the 1980s and could not win a three-decades-long war against the Kurds. The Arab military performance on both sides of the 1990 Kuwait war was mediocre. And the Arabs have done poorly in nearly all the military confrontations with Israel. Why this unimpressive record? There are many factors — economic, ideological, technical — but perhaps the most important has to do with culture and certain societal attributes which inhibit Arabs from producing an effective military force.
Posted by: Steve White || 10/29/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [6 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Basically, it seems to boil down to the idea that they don't trust anybody except family and the concept that being indispensible is the only safe haven in a dog-eat-dog environment.

This is the world view that has to be broken. To break this world view means to separate the upcoming generations' outlook from the older generations', and to keep them separated until the idea takes hold and it can't be rolled back. Hopefully this can be done gracefully with a minimum of inter-generational tension. Probably the best way to do this would be to install a serious educational system that included making them aware of the downfalls of pride and detrimental competition, the benefits of competition and sportsmanship, the value of human life, the english language, and make a wide-open internet available to all and keep it that way. Getting the military folks to see how well it works couldn't hurt, either.
Posted by: gorb || 10/29/2007 4:09 Comments || Top||

#2  The Arab countries are 3rd world and 4th rate. I have been to the Arabian Peninsula, and the rule is: it something CAN be done in one minute, the Arab will waste an hour arguing about ways to do it. Success and progress are anathema to an Arab.

Western Civilization needs to oppose Islamic politics as a system. Our recent indulgence of political-islam is termite feeding at best. As for Mideast oil: true title to the oil patch is Anglo-American. We must reclaim original sovereignty from the savages.
Posted by: McZoid || 10/29/2007 4:30 Comments || Top||

#3  They don't know how to cooperate. Their entire religion is based on non-cooperation and literally killing or subjugating anyone who doesn't agree with with the Turban of the Day. If you want them to accept democracy and join the modern world - convert them to another religion.
Posted by: Unutle McGurque8861 || 10/29/2007 4:42 Comments || Top||

#4  Idol worship can be dangerous.
Posted by: newc || 10/29/2007 6:10 Comments || Top||

#5  > They don't know how to cooperate.

Actually they don't know how to reciprocate.
Posted by: Bright Pebbles || 10/29/2007 8:07 Comments || Top||

#6  Just replace all the islamophiles at state with child psychologists (emphasis on developmental and abnormal child psych) Problem solved...
Posted by: M. Murcek || 10/29/2007 9:12 Comments || Top||

#7  Why? Well they are always supersitious and blowing off too much steam early then huffing for breath later. Nothing ever gets done because they have to face east 5 times a day and often are lazy or have their nose in the Koran instead of looking at reality around them.

Posted by: Mad Eye Thrineger4793 || 10/29/2007 9:46 Comments || Top||

#8  The least charitable people in the world. And considering a quick mental list of peoples of the world, that is saying something.
Posted by: Excalibur || 10/29/2007 9:47 Comments || Top||

#9  I have said it before, and I'll say it again. The tribal culture of the Arabs MUST be broken if they are going to compete in the modern world. The military is just a view of how their whole society operates. It just barely works and can't survive contact with any better system. Which is why they hate Israel and the west so much. We prove, at every level that their system of doing things is inferior and will never work as well as ours.
Posted by: DarthVader || 10/29/2007 9:51 Comments || Top||

#10  Why do some of you guys want to teach them to be better fighters? So they can kill each other better? They already do that pretty well. So they can kill us better? Their tribal non-cooperative outlook is largely due to the tenets of their tribal non-cooperative religion. Let them stew in.
Posted by: Darrell || 10/29/2007 10:44 Comments || Top||

#11  I think they are doing just fine. Remember the koran protects the believer from all harm, so be sure to march on the infidels in nice straight rows.
Posted by: ed || 10/29/2007 11:58 Comments || Top||

#12  I think the bottom line of the original argument is that Arabic culture which is not exposed to outside influences is xenophobic and insular. Not that any one individual is inherantly evil. We ought use our presence in Iraq and elsewhere in the region to understand this reality and to use it to our advantage better, and at the same time bring the folks that we can into the 21st century. All people who have spent their lives in an enviroment which breeds suspicion of outsiders must be subtly convinced to be open to seeing something new, and to be assured it is not evil. We must use the inate human curiousity to something different to open folks minds something outside, different to what they've been used to... It is possible to have their attitudes molded, taking care not to be percieved as belittling their past. So, we have an opportunity to convince the people of the region to see our melieu as preferable future, and not that of the al-Qaedas. I think Gen. Petraeus has come to understand this and that may be why the Sunni are indeed turning on al-Qaeda.
Posted by: BigEd || 10/29/2007 12:26 Comments || Top||

#13  they don't trust anybody except family and the concept that being indispensible is the only safe haven in a dog-eat-dog environment.

Which deftly summarizes the central tenets of high context culture. For those of you who are unfamiliar with this concept, it is essentially impossible to comprehend the yawning gulf between Islamic societies and the West without knowledge of this fundamental difference.

Some comparisons:

High context refers to societies or groups where people have close connections over a long period of time. Many aspects of cultural behavior are not made explicit because most members know what to do and what to think from years of interaction with each other. Your family is probably an example of a high context environment.

Low context refers to societies where people tend to have many connections but of shorter duration or for some specific reason. In these societies, cultural behavior and beliefs may need to be spelled out explicitly so that those coming into the cultural environment know how to behave.

— High Context —

Less verbally explicit communication, less written/formal information

More internalized understandings of what is communicated

Multiple cross-cutting ties and intersections with others

Long term relationships

Strong boundaries- who is accepted as belonging vs who is considered an "outsider"

Knowledge is situational, relational

Decisions and activities focus around personal face-to-face relationships, often around a central person who has authority


— Low Context —

Rule oriented, people play by external rules

More knowledge is codified, public, external, and accessible

Sequencing, separation--of time, of space, of activities, of relationships

More interpersonal connections of shorter duration

Knowledge is more often transferable

Task-centered. Decisions and activities focus around what needs to be done, division of responsibilities


[emphasis added]

Notice how, "Less verbally explicit communication, less written/formal information" is well-suited to an illiterate society. Couple this with, "Decisions and activities focus around ... a central person who has authority" and you get a concise recipe for totalitarianism. A more common manifestation of this is the Arab prediliction for "strong horse" type of leadership. All of this is writ large in Islamic cultures.

Cast in the perspective of military operations, high context traditions are absolute poison to efficiency and performance. Aristocratic members are automatically awarded command positions based upon social status instead of battlefield competence. Skilled members of the lower ranks are viewed with suspicion and regarded as a threat to authority. In all, a recipe for disaster.

Now examine the pivotal aspects of low context culture. "Rule oriented, people play by external rules", a vital component of military discipline. "More knowledge is codified, public, external, and accessible", which is especially critical for coordinated group activity, such as fielding an army. "Knowledge is more often transferable", thereby averting the tremendous problems inherent with individuals who seek to make themselves indespensible. Combine these traits with the West's more egalitarian traditions of promotion through the ranks based upon competency or skill and the huge difference becomes obvious.

Arab culture automatically dooms itself to defeat. Its heavily entrenched high context basis simply does not allow nearly as much for the emergence of talent without it first being qualified by lineage or social status. This heavily discourages enterprising personalities and quashes individualism. None of which bodes well for either military victory or even simple modernization.

What it does encourage is some of the most vicious, ruthless and rapacious behaviors. Fanaticism and zealotry are encouraged, which in turn provide an ample supply of cannon fodder for those entirely unconcerned with the sanctity of human life. Terrorism becomes an almost mandatory tool of choice for such hopelessly inadequate and easily humiliated personalities.

Posted by: Zenster || 10/29/2007 12:52 Comments || Top||

#14  All people who have spent their lives in an enviroment which breeds suspicion of outsiders must be subtly convinced to be open to seeing something new, and to be assured it is not evil. We must use the inate human curiousity to something different to open folks minds something outside, different to what they've been used to... It is possible to have their attitudes molded, taking care not to be percieved as belittling their past. So, we have an opportunity to convince the people of the region to see our melieu as preferable future, and not that of the al-Qaedas.

BigEd, while your observations are entirely correct, nowhere do we have the luxury of waiting the necessary decades for such profound paradigm shifts in Islamic cultures. The proliferation of nuclear technology alone prohibits this. This is further compounded by how Internet connectivity strongly facilitates the secretive communication and indoctrination that terrorism thrives upon. The high context issues that make personal humiliation so predictable and devastating for Muslims demonstrates the need for swift military intervention and almost brutal suppression of all further Islamic ascendancy. We simply cannot tolerate unmodified Islam to carry forward armed with advanced technology while retaining all of its unwholesome and crippling character faults. We may as well put nuclear weapons into the hands of an ill mannered and tantrum prone five year-old.
Posted by: Zenster || 10/29/2007 13:11 Comments || Top||

#15  Nearly a century ago, T. E. Lawrence's third chapter of the Seven Pillars of Wisdom
summarizes his observation of the Arab mind:

http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/l/lawrence/te/seven/chapter3.html

There was no "islamophobia" then, the term hasn't been invented. In fact Lawrence of Arabia was overall sympathetic to them but even so the backward characteristics of theirs mentioned were not that wonderful and this primitiveness can hardly be denied.
Posted by: Duh! || 10/29/2007 13:56 Comments || Top||

#16  I lived and fought inside the Iraqi Army last year and found as you develop the relationship the unit as a whole begins to assimalate our professional behavior. We had one trooper we nicknamed "Cowboy" who tried to mimic everything we did and as a result we stroked him every chance we got and found others looked to earn the same favor. It will take time to over come many of the issues described but we clearly saw those barriers melt as we showed operational success. The flip side is US advisors attempt to make them into Mini Me's. Don't try and teach them to shoot M16s, teach them to shoot. Everytime we went to the range, the fact I had an ACOG and lazer was thrown into my face...right up the time I took the loudest mouth's AK-47 away and out shot him. But it took lots of effort and demonstration on our part working within their norms to be able to openly confront "leaders" on occasions like that. Christian soldiers praying over our fallen jundi earned respect because it demonstrated we cared about them. The longer the Iraqi Army is around the US Soldier the better they will become because it takes time to gain the wasta to teach the professionalism they need.
Posted by: TopMac || 10/29/2007 14:50 Comments || Top||

#17  To start with: make first cousin marriages a capital offense.
Posted by: g(r)omgoru || 10/29/2007 15:08 Comments || Top||

#18  lotp has been talking about the same things as TopMac, but from the military school side -- we teach more than just how to make war more effectively, we teach how to be citizen soldiers in a Rule of Law, high trust society. The kind of thing Zenster discusses about those cultures lacking so completely.
Posted by: trailing wife || 10/29/2007 15:45 Comments || Top||

#19  Christian soldiers praying over our fallen jundi earned respect because it demonstrated we cared about them.

Outstanding, TopMac! That ought to shame the Iraqis into a little compassion. It might even make some of them rethink their choice of creed. Welcome to Rantburg. In-country experience from our troops is treasured at these boards. I hope we get to hear more from you. Stay safe and thank you for defending America!
Posted by: Zenster || 10/29/2007 15:58 Comments || Top||

#20  Thank you so much for your insight TopMac. We look forward to hearing more from you!
Posted by: Icerigger || 10/29/2007 16:44 Comments || Top||

#21  As long as a culture can't make or cultivate good NCOs they'll continue to get their asses handed to them by those who can.
Posted by: Procopius2k || 10/29/2007 18:30 Comments || Top||

#22  That ought to shame the Iraqis into a little compassion. It might even make some of them rethink their choice of creed

What on earth makes you think Iraqi soldiers don't feel compassion?

When our soldiers pray over Iraqi fallen soldiers the effect is to make US troops appear a little more normal and human to Iraqis, whose culture expects open displays of emotion. It's a culture issue not a credal one in most cases.
Posted by: lotp || 10/29/2007 19:05 Comments || Top||

#23  A more interesting article might be Why the Arabs succeed at...
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 10/29/2007 19:05 Comments || Top||

#24  Let's see what the Saudi king accomplishes financially over the next couple months, NS. He's already done quite nicely for the kingdom, to our detriment. Americans suck at that sort of gamesmanship, by and large.
Posted by: lotp || 10/29/2007 19:08 Comments || Top||

#25  But it'll be a short term win. Long term, I'd rather be playing our hand, even if it looks weak now.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 10/29/2007 19:17 Comments || Top||

#26  What on earth makes you think Iraqi soldiers don't feel compassion?

Ummm ... please don't read your own agenda into my words. I did not say the Iraqi soldiers were utterly without compassion. I merely pointed out how this might evoke some in them.

Furthermore, if Iraqis in general felt the same sort of compassion that we Americans do for people of all other cultures, we wouldn't be over there spilling our blood and theirs, now would we?
Posted by: Zenster || 10/29/2007 20:21 Comments || Top||

#27  @23 :NS

Damn short list though.
Posted by: Lampedusa Glaviling1092 || 10/29/2007 20:37 Comments || Top||

#28  Hey my cookie got eated! - that's me at #27
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 10/29/2007 20:38 Comments || Top||

#29  Ummm ... please don't read your own agenda into my words. I did not say the Iraqi soldiers were utterly without compassion. I merely pointed out how this might evoke some in them.

Um... it's more a matter of reading your agenda into your words: "That ought to shame the Iraqis into a little compassion. It might even make some of them rethink their choice of creed."

Then again perhaps I should be complimentary. It's the first time you've put your meme into only two sentences.
Posted by: Pappy || 10/29/2007 22:36 Comments || Top||

#30  :-) Pappy. A Factual statement
Posted by: Frank G || 10/29/2007 22:43 Comments || Top||

#31  Yo, Pappy, what part of:

"... if Iraqis in general felt the same sort of compassion that we Americans do for people of all other cultures, we wouldn't be over there spilling our blood and theirs, now would we?"

... don't you understand? If Muslims truly gave a hot shit about this world's other cultures, we wouldn't have to be over there crushing them like so many cockroaches. Or do you argue otherwise?
Posted by: Zenster || 10/29/2007 22:45 Comments || Top||

#32  Ya know, Pappy, you piss and moan about how you don't care if I'm "smart as Einstein or as articulate as Churchill" because I keep quoting the same five memes.

Let's count a few of them, shall we?

First off when I arrived here I was dedicated to finding some sort of credible deterrent to terrorism. Yup, I still keep on trying to find a measure that will succeed so that a Muslim holocaust isn't necessary. Do you find that attempt boring? Well, tough noogies.

Second. My own previous stance of defending moderate Muslims has finally been eroded by the deafening silence of the vast majority of this world's Islamic population. Same meme? No effing way. It's been a huge paradigm shift for me to give up on what I had hoped was some sort of decent Muslim population. Far be it from you to recognize it, though.

Along with .com and Frank G. I, too, have arrived at the decision that hunter-killer teams are needed to cap the top echalons of Islam's clerical aristocracy. Much like Fred Pruitt himself recently posted as well. Of course, none of my limited warfare scenarios give pause to any of the rectal cavities who constantly try to paint me with the Big Lie of genocide. Perish the fucking thought.

Then again, of late I've come to believe that deportation or internment of America's Muslim population may well be necessary. Heaven forefend that Iraqi immigrant, Khudayr Taher, has called for this, including his own deportation. Let's please overlook how recently released WWII documents show that Japanese citizens were actively helping the Imperial Japanese government with stateside espionage.

So, what about declaring shari'a law to be a complete violation of human rights? I've only originated that within the last few months. What a tired old boring meme that must be for anyone who is unconcerned with making sure that this sort of Islamic filth finds no toehold in American constitutional law.

As you've noted, Pappy, all of these ideas are constantly repeated memes that I arrived at these boards with, totally intact and unchanged. Even to the point where I no longer refer to Bush as "shrub" and instead declared that "the better man" had won the 2004 elections.

Perish the thought that you, or anyone else might recognize that. Let's make sure to overlook how I have repeatedly vowed at this site to publicly oppose any attempt to impeach George Bush should he face such proceedings for bombing Iran's nuclear program. No way possible could that fit in with your smear campaign or attempts to discredit my own positions.

Enough of this shit!
Posted by: Zenster || 10/29/2007 23:19 Comments || Top||


Iraq
Iinside The Surge
HOW ORDINARY IRAQIS ARE TURNING THE TIDE OF WAR
By MICHAEL YON
Six page article at link.
Posted by: ed || 10/29/2007 12:17 || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:



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Two weeks of WOT
Mon 2007-10-29
  Baghdad: Gunmen kidnap 10 anti-al-Qaida tribal leaders
Sun 2007-10-28
  80 Talibs escorted from gene pool at Musa Qala
Sat 2007-10-27
  Pakistani forces launch offensive against militants in Swat valley
Fri 2007-10-26
  Mehsuds formally ask army to leave Tank compound
Thu 2007-10-25
  India jails 31 for life over 1998 blasts
Wed 2007-10-24
  Binny demands reinforcements for Iraq
Tue 2007-10-23
  PKK offers conditional ceasefire
Mon 2007-10-22
  Bobby Jindal governor of Louisiana
Sun 2007-10-21
  Four dozen Talibs banged in Musa Qala area
Sat 2007-10-20
  Waziristan to be pacified 'once and for all'
Fri 2007-10-19
  Binny's handler was incharge of Benazir's security
Thu 2007-10-18
  Benazir Bhutto survives bomb attack
Wed 2007-10-17
  Putin warns against military action on Iran
Tue 2007-10-16
  Time for Palestinian State: Rice
Mon 2007-10-15
  Six killed, 25 injured as terror strikes Indian town of Ludhiana


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