Article

2004-07-02 Europe

Germans and French Object to Death Penalty for Saddam

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Posted by Super Hose 2004-07-02 3:20:56 AM|| || Front Page|| [6 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Hasnât Romania joined the EU?

Not yet. It's currently planned for 2007.

2. Brutally hack your ex-dictator.
3. Renounce capital punishment so that you can part polite society.

Which is probably a good enough description. There'll be little harm done in executing Saddam himself, but I do think it will help democracy and free society in Iraq if death penalty is *afterwards* banned.

*Especially* because Iraq was a country where executing people was the most effective means of shutting them up for all time.

There have existed lots of democracies *with* the death-penalty, but AFAIK there exist few dictatorships *without* it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-07-02 9:43:11 AM|| 2004-07-02 9:43:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 *enter* polite society, I meant, and I assume you did too.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-07-02 9:45:30 AM|| 2004-07-02 9:45:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 The only way Frogs and Krauts would be for the death penalty is if they took out a large insurance policy on the accused.

Posted by badanov 2004-07-02 9:48:39 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-07-02 9:48:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 what did the eminence Chirac say to W about meddling in others' affairs? F*&king lying crapweasel

Posted by Frank G 2004-07-02 9:50:40 AM|| 2004-07-02 9:50:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 I like the Latvian response, I feel the same. If the Iraqi's want to give hime the Il Duce treatment or back him a cake - none of my business anymore. (though personally, I was kind of hoping he gets the noose)

Posted by Jarhead 2004-07-02 9:55:43 AM|| 2004-07-02 9:55:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Germans and French Object to Death Penalty for Saddam

I can only assume Europe continues to experience lingering pangs of conscience over the senseless slaughter that resulted from Nuremburg.

Posted by Zenster 2004-07-02 9:59:00 AM|| 2004-07-02 9:59:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Someone once said that if you don't play the game, you don't get to make the rules. By their conspicuous lack of participation in Operation Iraqi Freedom and in the reconstruction efforts, France and Germany have earned the right to be ignored. With all the allegations of massive graft and corruption, it's easy to understand why the politicians of France and Germany would be against capital punishment, a simple matter of self-preservation.

Posted by RWV 2004-07-02 10:04:04 AM|| 2004-07-02 10:04:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Spoken word: In Berlin, the governmentâs top human rights official, Claudia Roth, criticized Baghdadâs move to reinstate capital punishment, which was suspended during the U.S. occupation. "To start out this way does not send a good signal," Roth told The Associated Press. "I think it would have been a signal of democratic strength had they not reinstated the death penalty in Iraq."

Real meaning-The sovereignty of Iraq can only be authenticated by its adherence to European New Age criminal justice: punishment is out; counseling is in.

Posted by jules 187 2004-07-02 10:51:58 AM|| 2004-07-02 10:51:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 BTW-Latvians, and eastern Europeans in general, have great bullsh*t detectors and no patience for impunity--they lived with that for too many decades. Ironic that Latvians have a better concept of sovereignty than France and Germany, it seems, who want to call the shots of justice for Iraqis.

Glad to read this comment from the Latvian Foreign Ministry spokesman, as I have heard from 2 former colleagues in Latvia that anti-Americanism is growing there (although still a minority view).

Posted by jules 187 2004-07-02 10:58:18 AM|| 2004-07-02 10:58:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 The Iraqis are a sovereign nation again. It is not the business of the US, UK, AoW, the Mariannas, or anyone else as to what happens to Saddam. And it is not the place of the UN to weigh in on the fate of Saddam either. They, the French, and the German govts are just this side of being accessories to the high crimes that Saddam and his cronies committed.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-07-02 11:46:06 AM|| 2004-07-02 11:46:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Man murders hundreds of thousands. French/Germans say: Hands off! Leftists say: Not US business! Families of murder victims say: Kill murderer! Leftists, Euro's say: Leave him alone! Don't hurt him! What am I missing?

Posted by 5442 2004-07-02 12:00:29 PM|| 2004-07-02 12:00:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 I think it's important for dictators to be made aware of the poor retirement plan. Idi Amin dying in his bed was a travesty.

Posted by Formerly Dan 2004-07-02 12:26:08 PM|| 2004-07-02 12:26:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#13

/Germans and French Object to Death Penalty for Saddam

Another thing they see eye-to-eye on with Saddam.

Still collaborating, Gerhardt & Jacques?

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-07-02 12:38:46 PM|| 2004-07-02 12:38:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 This -- and the war generally (remember the 9/11 plotter getting like 3 days in prison per murder from a German court?) -- is the reductio ad absurdum of Eurosqueamishness.

Iraq is, I'm sure, going to keep executing people until they're no longer on the front line of the war. As they damn well should.

Posted by someone 2004-07-02 12:58:30 PM|| 2004-07-02 12:58:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Well you can say one thing....

Once bought, they stay bought.

I think Iraq should send all their murders and terrorists to France and Germany. Let them take care of them.

The good news is that Iraq is re-imposing the death penalty.

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-07-02 1:08:47 PM|| 2004-07-02 1:08:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Paul:The Iraqis are a sovereign nation again. It is not the business of the US, UK, AoW, the Mariannas, or anyone else as to what happens to Saddam.

I disagree. We just fought a war to remove him. In my worst nightmare, the Iraqi's acquit him or he escapes/gets let out the side door. If he were to walk free he would be back in power within a week. Then what? Do we do the whole war again? We have a vested interest in seeing that he not only does not see the light of day, but that its outright "lights out" for our boy in the fine Armani jacket.

Posted by Zpaz 2004-07-02 3:31:45 PM|| 2004-07-02 3:31:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Considering all the embargo-breaking and bribery that went on between Frwance and Saddam, I'm surprised ChIraq doesn't want to push the switch himself - I notice China and Russia are noticably absent in the calls to keep him alive.

Posted by Mercutio 2004-07-02 3:39:39 PM|| 2004-07-02 3:39:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 In my worst nightmare, the Iraqi's acquit him or he escapes/gets let out the side door.

They'd have to be absolutely out of their minds to acquit the guy. He has too much blood on his hands for his countryment to ignore. Now as for the French and the Germans, well, it would appear that the amount of blood spilled by Saddam just isn't enough for them....

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-07-02 4:08:55 PM|| 2004-07-02 4:08:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 A dead Saddam will be both a martyr and a lesson. A live and imprisoned Saddam will be a cause. France and Germany have both killed leaders in their pasts, and the ideals that those leaders had have ultimately faded (anti-Semitism is a bit of an exception, but it was around before Hitler). How dare they not allow Iraq the same chance at dealing with its wounded past! Forget about enlightened principles - seeing the man who terrorized so many, who was a larger-than-life figure, hanging by a noose, stone-cold dead, is the first step towards healing.

Posted by The Doctor 2004-07-02 4:14:53 PM|| 2004-07-02 4:14:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 A dead Saddam will be both a martyr and a lesson. A live and imprisoned Saddam will be a cause.

Well said buddy. I am going to write that one down.

Posted by Zpaz 2004-07-02 4:29:24 PM|| 2004-07-02 4:29:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 What exactly is the composition of the court and who decides the verdict - judge, judges or juries? My fear lies in not knowing their motivation. If justice is their goal, then the facts will speak for themselves and he is going down. If a fat bank account in Switzerland is their goal, then the worst is possible depending on who is doing the payola.

Posted by Zpaz 2004-07-02 4:36:01 PM|| 2004-07-02 4:36:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 This puts me in a tight spot regarding the death penalty (as a Catholic). Unlike Kerry, I'm not Catholic just when its convenient.

Initially, I *must* back the Church's position - and oppose the death penalty when applied broadly. But it pains me to do so in this case.

The good thing is that the Bishops do call for an *INFORMED* conscience - unlike the willful ignorance displayed by so-called "pro choice" Catholics.

I do believe that there exist doctrines which do support execution of unrepentant evildoers, and thats where I need to research.

As for Iraq and Saddam, I expect that a swift fair trial, a confrontation by his victims, and letting them dispose of him would be poetic justice - and in line with Islamic Justice (now THERE is an oxymoron).

Posted by OldSpook 2004-07-02 6:08:31 PM|| 2004-07-02 6:08:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Um hmm. And HOW MANY TIMES has France and Germany condemned Saudi Arabia for its hundreds of beheadings every year?

Posted by Ptah 2004-07-02 9:59:11 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-07-02 9:59:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 As a willfully ignorant pro-choice Catholic I have no problem w/the Iraqi's frying this *sshole if they choose to. His fate is in the hands of the Almighty.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-07-02 10:21:59 PM|| 2004-07-02 10:21:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Well, good news for me and you Jarhead:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that the death penalty is possible in cases of extreme gravity.

NOWHERE in the Catechism or in any statement from the Pope does it say the death penalty is "immoral." It says that the death penalty is not normally necessary to preserve the lives of the innocent, but the Catechism acknowledges that there are times it may be necessary.

The whole of Catholic tradition consistently affirms the legitimacy of capital punishment. Pope John Paul II's restrictions on its imposition, codified in the Latin "editio typica" of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, is difficult to understand, not least because it fails to take account of the doctrine of expiation, one of the pillars on which the legitimacy of the death penalty traditionally rested.

Given this, I beleive Saddam, like the Nuremburg defendants, qualifies as an extreme case as laid out in the Catechism and in the writings of Aquinas (The most authoritative Doctor of the Church on this) - and that whether to forgive or execute lies with the legitimate governing authority of Iraq with the welfare of its people in mind as well as the gravity and sheer mass of the crimes against humanity comitted by Saddam and his regime.

So, now I and other Catholics can faithfully say "String the bastard up!"

Posted by OldSpook 2004-07-02 11:18:36 PM|| 2004-07-02 11:18:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 As a convert to Catholism, I try to stick close to the plan as well. My feeling on the death penalty is usually - why the heck would you want to let some punk like Timothy McVey off easy by killing him. Make him sleep on a concrete slab and commiserate with Mr. Jingles until he is 120 years old.
With Sadaam, there is a strong probablity that hostages will be taken and threatened as a bargainning chip to gain his release. I don't think that even the Pope would argue against liquidating the butcher of Baghdad by that rationale.
Let the man be killed tastefully, though. All Pay-Per-View net proceeds should go to the family's of his victims.
It would be fun to have a pool on the execution method. I think the Vegas odds will be pretty long on the "lethal injection" option. Personally I'm hoping for the Mare of Steel.

Posted by Old Spook 2004-07-03 12:44:59 AM|| 2004-07-03 12:44:59 AM|| Front Page Top

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