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2008-12-07 Home Front Economy

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Posted by Fred 2008-12-07 00:00|| || Front Page|| [2 views ] Top

#1 If they did this BHO might be backed into a corner so he couldn't block oil, gas, clean coal, nuclear development as he wants to do.

Posted by tipover 2008-12-07 00:49|| 2008-12-07 00:49|| Front Page Top

#2 Khelil, you lying MF, you and your thieving bastard friends haven't got the stones to do it. Screw you. I dare you to cut production and make it stick.

Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-12-07 01:48|| 2008-12-07 01:48|| Front Page Top

#3 We could blockade Iran and save them the trouble. Iran's exports are just a little over 2 million barrels/day.

Posted by crosspatch 2008-12-07 03:24|| 2008-12-07 03:24|| Front Page Top

#4 If they did this BHO might be backed into a corner so he couldn't block oil, gas, clean coal, nuclear development

And I could win a lottery.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-12-07 06:08|| 2008-12-07 06:08|| Front Page Top

#5 Production cuts at a time of reduced demand? Makes sense to me. There are really only so many storage tanks and the stuff is bloody auwful to drink.

Posted by Besoeker 2008-12-07 08:13|| 2008-12-07 08:13|| Front Page Top

#6 Remember that Obambi's power is rather limited, and that the spineless Democrats in congress know that if they cut off the oil, there are going to be very irate voters outside their offices with torches and pitchforks.

Posted by Anonymoose 2008-12-07 08:46|| 2008-12-07 08:46|| Front Page Top

#7 But ya hafta have oil for torches, 'Moose.

Posted by Bobby 2008-12-07 08:52|| 2008-12-07 08:52|| Front Page Top

#8 This part of the cycle will play out as it must. OPEC is still in denial. Don't look for a bottom just yet. When the Arabs despair of oil ever returning to profitibility, we will see a bottom. It can't rise much, though, until demand increases. If most of the world's production areas use Obama's formula, that demand could be a long time coming. For FDR, it took a war, a very big war.

Posted by Richard of Oregon 2008-12-07 10:10|| 2008-12-07 10:10|| Front Page Top

#9 The Paks are doing all they can to help the Zero be another FDR.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-12-07 10:18|| 2008-12-07 10:18|| Front Page Top

#10 Announcing a production cut is one thing, actually cutting production is quite another. Most of the OPEC countries have little else to sell. What good does it do to cut your production in half unless it at least doubles the price of oil? They are preparing to shoot themselves in the foot, I hope we can be of assistance.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-12-07 10:32|| 2008-12-07 10:32|| Front Page Top

#11 "We hope that Russia will apply (quota decisions) ... as if it were an OPEC member.''

As much, if not more then ever, itll be extremely difficult for the Russkies to maintain a sustained loss of market share. Of course, if they give the turbans the finger they risk an outright price war. Dance Big BearDance!

Posted by DepotGuy 2008-12-07 11:55|| 2008-12-07 11:55|| Front Page Top

#12 OK, let me get this straight. They have seen revenue fall by 70% and now they're going to cut it further by reducing output? I think even Keynes would understand why that ain't gonna happen.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-12-07 12:02|| 2008-12-07 12:02|| Front Page Top

#13 Our country is in deep economical trouble and it just amazes me how little credit has been given to the high cost of fuel this past year. That one single factor alone has been solely responsible for putting more businesses out of business and more homeowners out of their home than any other factor. The historically high cost of gas affects every single aspect of our economy and society. Most family's went broke filling up at the pump alone. Then added to the burden was the higher cost of every consumer product because the increased production and shipping cost due to the higher fuel was passed on to the consumer. Let me ask you this, have you seen the price of groceries come down since the price of gas came back down. NOOO! Freddie and Fannie are taking most of the blame for homes being lost. Of all the homes I have seen lost in my area of the country S FL and I have seen many and many more in the process, not one was due to an adjustable rate mortgage. It was due to lack of work. When we pay more for gas and products we naturally cut back spending, that is a domino effect, less consumer spending = more jobs lost. We seriously need to get on about the business of becoming energy independent. Jeff Wilson just released a book called The Manhattan Project of 2009 Energy Independence NOW. He outlines all our uses of oil, things I never even considered. Our depletion, which is even scarier, this is a finite source of energy. It will run totally out and not in the too distant future. We have so much available to us, wind and solar which are free, we just need to harness them. And plug in car technology. It would cost the equivalent of 60 cents a gallon to charge an electric car with the average home electric rates. That is insanely cheap. That electricity to charge the car could be generated from wind or solar. A company called Better Place in Palo Alto CA is in the beginning stages of setting up the infrastructures needed to support electric car use in the bay area in CA and now in Hawaii. WE need to take some of these billions and get ourselves out from under our dependence on foreign countries supplying our main source of energy. I encourage you to read this book www.themanhattanprojectof2009.com. I also have quickly become a "Better Place" junkie and applauded their work as they move our country forward and away from our dependence on foreign oil. Check out their web site as well. http://www.betterplace.com/ click on their get involved button on the top right side of the main page. You can sign a petition there. WE have to move this country forward. Use some of that stimulus money to bail us out of our dependence on foreign oil. Create badly needed new green collar jobs and at the same time provide clean , cheap energy. There is no one single factor that effects our economy more than the cost of our main source of energy. This past year is a testimony to that!

Posted by Thutle Hapsburg6846 2008-12-07 13:03|| 2008-12-07 13:03|| Front Page Top

#14 oh puhleeez. Handwringing aside. Very few homes were lost, and most were due to people getting in over their heads with loans they couldn't afford, expecting the increase in value to allow them to re-fi or sell and pocket the increase. Gas prices haven't helped, but only a very few lost their jobs due to the gas prices, otherwise we'd be in a hiring frenzy at $1.70/gal. Prices reflect gas and trans costs, but also credit cost and availability, supply/demand....you may have heard some issues about that lately, or not?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2008-12-07 13:18|| 2008-12-07 13:18|| Front Page Top

#15 check this out re: foreclosures

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2008-12-07 13:33|| 2008-12-07 13:33|| Front Page Top

#16 The kind of infrastructure this thread needs is free. It's called paragraphs. Try it.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-12-07 13:49|| 2008-12-07 13:49|| Front Page Top

#17 In other words, I should replace the sun roof on my car with solar panels... and put a sail on the roof. No? Then we're going to have to double the number of power plants in the U.S. to feed the demand from the electric vehicles, and the power plants will perforce need to be powered either by natural gas or nuclear reactors. Which do you prefer, Thutle Hapsburg6846, and how many jobs will be created for the construction and then running of the plants?

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2008-12-07 14:02|| 2008-12-07 14:02|| Front Page Top

#18 TW,

It is futile to engage anyone in discussion before they learn how to use the carriage return. And why it's called a carriage return.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-12-07 14:26|| 2008-12-07 14:26|| Front Page Top

#19 One massive euro styled 1000MW reactor could charge every electric car in the country, even if 30% of the fleet were electric.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-12-07 14:31|| 2008-12-07 14:31|| Front Page Top

#20 You do not charge electric cars with thermal power plants. It is inefficient because of the thermal cycle. If you want to build thermal power plants, build nuclear ones, and use the rejected heat for district heating, process heating, or running greenouses, or something useful requiring low level heat.
[paragraph end, start new one]
We have adequate oil to make the transition. What we need are brains, basic understanding of energy, physics, and engineering principles, and a national policy or direction if you will.

We are stuck with a congress of thieves, morons (no disrespect to honest mentally challenged), and traitors, and a weak president. This country is going nowhere on national energy policy that makes sense until the present Congress, at least is literally and figuratively thrown out.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2008-12-07 15:23|| 2008-12-07 15:23|| Front Page Top

#21 Most commuters drive less than 40 miles/day. An electric car should get 4-5 miles/kWh, so say 10kWh/day for the average commuter. The nuclear electric power capacity is currently 100,000 MW. That's enough to charge 240 million of the 10kWh electric/hybrid cars. But given that most charging will be at night (10 hrs) that's still enough nuke juice to charge 100 million cars/night. And nukes are less than 20% of US electric generation capacity (coal is 50%). So the energy is already available.

That's why I advocate subsidizing the first 5kWh of batteries and really pushing hydridization for every car sold in the US (~$2-2500). Not only will the first 15-20 miles be all electric, but the car itself will be at least 50% more efficient on gasoline (average). The $30-40 billion/year for 15 or 16 million cars is 3 months cost of the Bush's Muslim Reeducation Initiative (has it been 7 years already). In 10 years, the US will be exporting excess oil.

Posted by ed 2008-12-07 15:56|| 2008-12-07 15:56|| Front Page Top

#22 Have to disagree with you Paul, electric vehicles are actually more efficient than gasoline powered cars, even when the electricity is coal generated. It's all about well to wheels efficiency.

Two other energy advantages of electric transportation are:
1. Cheap and domestic fuel source.
2. Waste heat from a power plant can be used for other purposes, that from a tail pipe can't.

Posted by ed 2008-12-07 16:07|| 2008-12-07 16:07|| Front Page Top

#23 I just walked in the house. It's windy and cold here. And I'm just in PA. How do you heat an electric car in winter?

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-12-07 17:03|| 2008-12-07 17:03|| Front Page Top

#24 Not electric, plug in hybrid.

BTW, the air conditioner works much more efficiently off electricity than the accessory belt. And AC is just another name for a heat pump.

Posted by ed 2008-12-07 17:07|| 2008-12-07 17:07|| Front Page Top

#25 In case the first part of #24 is too obtuse, the engine can be run to heat the car, drive the electric motors and charge the batteries.

When batteries have the charge, the AC can be used as a heat pump.

Posted by ed 2008-12-07 17:13|| 2008-12-07 17:13|| Front Page Top

#26 It's 17º. I don't need a/c. Electric resistance heating takes a lot of juice, especially when the battry won't hold a lot of charge. What's that do to mileage.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-12-07 17:24|| 2008-12-07 17:24|| Front Page Top

#27 Nimble. Who mentioned resistance heating? That is a waste of both engine and battery power. You must be from the heated fanny, Volvo riding set.

There are two efficient sources of heat. First there the AC/heat pump. Even a cheap $100 Walmart AC moves 10 units of energy for every unit of electrical energy. That is for when you have plenty of battery capacity. Then when the battery is being charged, there is the waste heat from the engine as used in cars today. Both systems work.

Posted by ed 2008-12-07 17:33|| 2008-12-07 17:33|| Front Page Top

#28 Screw the Saudis.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-12-07 17:36|| 2008-12-07 17:36|| Front Page Top

#29 But ya hafta have oil for torches, 'Moose.

You can make a decent torch out of a tightly roled newspaper filled with pine cones.

Posted by Rednek Jim 2008-12-07 17:38|| 2008-12-07 17:38|| Front Page Top

#30 /em>

Damn, ed. You really know how to hurt a guy!

Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-12-07 17:41|| 2008-12-07 17:41|| Front Page Top

#31 The above comment was referring to this sentence from ed:

"You must be from the heated fanny, Volvo riding set."

Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-12-07 17:43|| 2008-12-07 17:43|| Front Page Top

#32 Actually, I made a mistake. I used the SEER number which is BTU/Watt-hour, but there are 3.4 BTUs/Watt-hour. So a 12 SEER heat pump would move 3.5 units of heat per unit of electrical energy.

Posted by ed 2008-12-07 17:52|| 2008-12-07 17:52|| Front Page Top

#33 40 Miles don't mean jack out west.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-12-07 18:00|| 2008-12-07 18:00|| Front Page Top

#34 Sorry, Ed. Didn't see your shift to plug in hybrid.

Heating remains a problem at low temps if you don't have that excess heat from a combustion engine. And no I don't have a seat heater in my 16 year old Toyota. Heat pumps at 17º aren't very effective even if they are efficient. And after you leave the car outside all day at work, they're going to be really cold for a long time ifv you don't have combustion.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-12-07 18:01|| 2008-12-07 18:01|| Front Page Top

#35 Efficient heating is a problem. But it's not an all or nothing scenario. Any combination of heat pump and engine heat will do. For instance, during a winter start, the car's computer can run the engine first for a few minutes to heat the interior and the battery pack. Then shut the engine down for 5-10 minutes, run on batteries and use residual engine heat to warm the interior. Then start the engine again. Whatever parameters give the best overall efficiency and comfort.

But to return to subject, we have to reduce our oil usage by at least half. At the peak oil price, Americans were spending at a rate of $1 trillion/year for oil with $700 billion/year of that leaving the US. No wonder it triggered a recession.

As long as those who want to kill or enslave us can bleed us and vastly enrich themselves by destabilizing the energy supply, then this war will go on and the west will die by a thousand tiny cuts. Either cut off their heads or cut off their access to the west's teats. So far no inclination has been shown to cut off heads, so let's try isolating them from us and our goodies. Take care of the energy problem and not only can the muzzie problem become a pimple, but the majority of the other badly behaving states also lose their leverage.

Posted by ed 2008-12-07 18:31|| 2008-12-07 18:31|| Front Page Top

#36 If you want to build thermal power plants, build nuclear ones, and use the rejected heat for ... or running greenouses

That was tried at the Bruce nuclear facility in Ontario, incidentally the largest in the world. The greens were all over it with Frankenfoods and it never went anywhere.

BTW, the solution to the nuclear siting NIMBY problem is to offer free heating to the local community. That would be a big incentive in colder regions.

Posted by phil_b 2008-12-07 18:47|| 2008-12-07 18:47|| Front Page Top

#37 The energy problem is relatively easy. Variable import fee to keep the price of imported oil at $100 per barrel adjusted for inflation. The will to do it is the problem.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-12-07 18:49|| 2008-12-07 18:49|| Front Page Top

#38 Interestingly, what is taking off is electricity generation from waste domestic heating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroCHP

Grid distribution of electricity only makes sense if your energy source is cheap and can't easily be distributed (nuclear?). Although, production of small 'community sized' nuclear plants has started.

Posted by phil_b 2008-12-07 20:12|| 2008-12-07 20:12|| Front Page Top

#39 The home CHP fuel cells look really interesting. Hope the Japanese can get the costs down.

Posted by ed 2008-12-07 20:33|| 2008-12-07 20:33|| Front Page Top

#40 It is futile to engage anyone in discussion before they learn how to use the carriage return. And why it's called a carriage return.

He's a cut-and-paste warrior. Likely auto-dumps the same tripe into every web site that triggers the search-bot keyword/phrase.

Posted by Pappy 2008-12-07 20:45|| 2008-12-07 20:45|| Front Page Top

23:00 bigjim-ky
22:51 bigjim-ky
22:48 trailing wife
22:44 bigjim-ky
22:30 SteveS
21:57 M. Murcek
21:48 Old Patriot
21:26 anonymous
21:25 anonymous
21:15 Jaique Johnson2117
20:49 Pappy
20:45 Pappy
20:36 ed
20:33 ed
20:28 Rednek Jim
20:27 ed
20:12 phil_b
20:03 Plastic Snoopy
19:55 Old Patriot
19:53 john frum
19:50 OldSpook
19:43 OldSpook
19:40 OldSpook
19:32 Rob06