Archived material Access restricted Article
Rantburg

Today's Front Page   View All of Mon 02/20/2006 View Sun 02/19/2006 View Sat 02/18/2006 View Fri 02/17/2006 View Thu 02/16/2006 View Wed 02/15/2006 View Tue 02/14/2006
1
2006-02-20 Europe
'Holocaust denier' Irving to plead guilty in Austria (updated!)
Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.
Posted by lotp 2006-02-20 07:56|| || Front Page|| [11134 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 doesn't sound like there will be a trial. sounds like he's throwing himself on the mercy of the court. the real question is, what sort of punisment he will receive. supposedly, the crime carries as much as a 10-year sentence.

We'll see.
Posted by PlanetDan">PlanetDan  2006-02-20 08:40||   2006-02-20 08:40|| Front Page Top

#2 Remember now… “Hate Crimes” are not “Thought Crimes”.
It’s just when you publicly state your opinions about certain issues in some places is when it can get tricky.
Posted by DepotGuy 2006-02-20 12:24||   2006-02-20 12:24|| Front Page Top

#3 Re: the update - So he was willing to "change" his views to get 7 years knocked off his possible sentence.

Have fun in jail, asshole. I'm sure you'll find a lot of kindred jerks there.
Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut  2006-02-20 15:25|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/page/15bk1/Home_Page.html]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/page/15bk1/Home_Page.html]  2006-02-20 15:25|| Front Page Top

#4 This is insane. Denial of the obvious should carry it's own penalty, it shouldn't be imposed by the state.
Posted by 6 2006-02-20 16:16||   2006-02-20 16:16|| Front Page Top

#5 Denial of the obvious should carry it's own penalty, it shouldn't be imposed by the state.

Not when there are implications of condoning genocide or favorable revisionism of historically well-established anti-Semetic politics.
Posted by Zenster 2006-02-20 17:19||   2006-02-20 17:19|| Front Page Top

#6 This put him away before the Iranian meeting to deny the holocaust, too.
Posted by lotp 2006-02-20 17:22||   2006-02-20 17:22|| Front Page Top

#7 Zenster, You just said a mouthful. A mouthful of what I’m not sure. But very eloquent non the less.
Posted by DepotGuy 2006-02-20 17:43||   2006-02-20 17:43|| Front Page Top

#8 Depot Guy, the Holocaust ranks as one of the most searing examples of man's inhumanity to man. Those who seek to downplay its enormity or palliate its historical existence exhibit a wish to reduce the vital lesson that we, as a people, must carry away from this ugly episode of our past. It is tantamount to a crime against humanity to willfully participate in minimizing or de-emphasizing any aspect of this brutal slaughter. Attempts to do so are essentially an act of condoning genocide. To condone effectively is to advocate and advocating genocide is a heinous act.
Posted by Zenster 2006-02-20 17:54||   2006-02-20 17:54|| Front Page Top

#9 Zenster:
Sincerely, your comment in #5 is the most concise and succinct viewpoints regarding this issue I’ve ever read. I just happen to respectfully disagree. Like it or not, ranking the importance of events is subjective. Therefore assigning motives based on an arbitrary degree of significance is presumptuous. Indifference doesn’t necessarily imply endorsement. And anyway you slice it; denial is not the same approval. I personally don’t believe some of the “facts” stated by the ‘9-11 Commission’. That doesn’t mean I condone mass-murder or that I’m anti-American. And I’m thankful that I live in a country that doesn’t consider it a crime for publicly stating my opinion.
Posted by DepotGuy 2006-02-20 19:31||   2006-02-20 19:31|| Front Page Top

#10 War is a bitch, world war is even more brutal. People get whacked, sometimes boatloads of em. Somewhere around 200 million Russians never made it through WWII. Not minimizing genocide, but I too am happy NOT to live in a country where one's opinion or belief lands you in jail.
Posted by Besoeker 2006-02-20 19:36||   2006-02-20 19:36|| Front Page Top

#11 Reference for that figure on Soviet deaths during WWII, Besoeker?

IIRC the official casualties for the USSR are usually given as less then 26 million soldiers and civilians killed and approx. 14 million soldier wounded. If you add the 32 million or so who were starved by Stalin in the forced collectivization of farms in the runup to the war you still don't get anywhere near 200 million ....

I'd be interested in any citations for the higher figure, if you have one. My father's family is Ukrainian and we had family still there during that war.
Posted by lotp 2006-02-20 19:43||   2006-02-20 19:43|| Front Page Top

#12 What if holocust denial was made into a Cartoon Z? Maybe then? Or does than bring the fear of consistent hobgoblins?
Posted by 6 2006-02-20 19:57||   2006-02-20 19:57|| Front Page Top

#13 This week has shown us that free speech is not served by restrictions based on offensiveness. Ensuring that the holocaust is remembered and never repeated is best served by allowing people to speak and proving the liars wrong. When ranting haters speak, they reveal and discredit themselves in the eyes of all except a handful of nutters. This is inevitable and just because it is sickening and offensive does not mean that it can be legislated away. Jailing crack-pots gives them more importance and status than they deserve.
The only exceptions to free speech should be slander and incitement to murder, such as preaching jihad in a time of war. I guess that Austria and Germany may have a case for extending such exceptions to cover outlawing denial but these exceptions create problems, such as we're seeing now. Irving is deliberately trying to paint himself as a free speech martyr instead of as demented pseudo-historian fantasist. Unfortunately he'll have some success. I think he should not be jailed and they should allow him to go to Tehran to participate in Holocaust Denial conventions Ahmadinejad. I am not so cynical as to believe that the majority of the world's people, even the Islamic ones, will be pesuaded to believe the lies of such a group of raving loonies. Give them the rope to hang themselves rhetorically and politically.
Posted by Monsieur Moonbat 2006-02-20 21:28||   2006-02-20 21:28|| Front Page Top

#14 What if holocust denial was made into a Cartoon Z? Maybe then? Or does than bring the fear of consistent hobgoblins?

If the cartoon is satirical of Holocaust denial, I'm all for it. I'll readily admit that I have strong feelings about the subject. My mother survived the Nazi occupation of Denmark and made d@mn sure we kids understood what the Nazis were about, to the tune of taking all three of her children to see a screening of "Night and Fog" when we were very young.

If you have never seen "Night and Fog", I suggest that you rent a copy and view it. Just not after a full meal.

Finally, I concur that we should all be glad to live in a country where we can agree to disagree, and that none of our arguments can be used to land us in jail.
Posted by Zenster 2006-02-20 23:28||   2006-02-20 23:28|| Front Page Top

10:32 Anonymoose
23:59 Anon
23:54 Rafael
23:38 Alaska Paul
23:37 mag44_vaquero
23:30 DMFD
23:28 Zenster
23:24 .com
23:19 Frank G
23:16 Frank G
23:16 Jan
23:14 mom
23:13 .com
23:13 Frank G
23:12 Frank G
23:11 .com
23:10 Frank G
23:10 Rafael
23:09 Zenster
23:09 Jan
23:08 Frank G
23:04 Alaska Paul
23:00 Silentbrick
23:00 Alaska Paul









Paypal:
Google
Search WWW Search rantburg.com