Article

2006-02-27 Europe

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Dan Darling 2006-02-27 02:58|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 But Chirac is on his way out. Who comes after Chirac and what will his policy toward the US be?

Posted by Jonathan 2006-02-27 07:26|| 2006-02-27 07:26|| Front Page Top

#2 Yeah. Let's trust Chirac. That's a grand idea.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2006-02-27 07:30|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2006-02-27 07:30|| Front Page Top

#3 In a little-noticed speech on French nuclear doctrine
?

Posted by 6 2006-02-27 07:48|| 2006-02-27 07:48|| Front Page Top

#4 Chirac throws in with US in last ditch effort, is how it should read.

Posted by Hupoluger Jaimp3665 2006-02-27 08:04|| 2006-02-27 08:04|| Front Page Top

#5 No thanks. Relations with France should be at arms length with the other hand pinching our nose. In 20-30 years, the French will be in a very nasty civil war. The last thing America needs is for the French to think, yet again, they have a right to Americans to come and pull their nuts out of the fire. The smartest thing we could do is to raise tariffs on French goods so that industrial infrastructure will be encouraged to migrate out of France and out of harm's way. The best the French can hope for is that the Germans will come and occupy them permanently.

Posted by ed 2006-02-27 08:13|| 2006-02-27 08:13|| Front Page Top

#6 Too little, too late.

Posted by Grinter Fluns8529 2006-02-27 10:03|| 2006-02-27 10:03|| Front Page Top

#7 Better to have a declared enemy than a back-stabbing friend. Go to hell, France.

Posted by BH 2006-02-27 10:07|| 2006-02-27 10:07|| Front Page Top

#8 Screw Chirac, bring on Nicky Skarz.

Posted by mojo">mojo 2006-02-27 10:56|| 2006-02-27 10:56|| Front Page Top

#9 It doesn't matter who's in charge. The French will not be our allies regardless of appearances. They are interested in building a Francophonie alternative to les anglo-saxons with the Arabs, Chinese and any third world thugs who would like to join them. They are an enemy who is unable to fight with us but happy to provide a second would veneer to those who can.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-02-27 11:18|| 2006-02-27 11:18|| Front Page Top

#10 i doubt very much that the arabs (other than the Lebanese Maronites and a handful of secular Algerians) and the Chinese are interested in building a francophonie.

I think this is a tribute to among other things A. Good, if unheralded, diplomacy by the Bush admin, esp Rice. B. The fact that the extreme alienation between the US and France was over Iraq, and now that Iraq is moving to self rule, its simply not the same kind of issue. C. Putin going a bit too far, making him a more difficult ally for Chirac. D. The elections in UK and German - Chirac is stuck with Blair, and has lost Schroeder. E. The actions of our adversaries - from Iran, to Hamas, to the cartoon riots - our enemies are pressing us together.

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-27 11:31|| 2006-02-27 11:31|| Front Page Top

#11 The fact that the extreme alienation between the US and France was over Iraq

You make it sound like the extreme alienation started with the war on Iraq. In fact it is the Iraq war that has forced the anti-American drum bangers like Chirac to get real as their citizens demand they do something, besides blaming the US to deal with their terrorist threats, which are far more severe than our own.

To some of us, his oil for food scams, bribes, coddling dictators, the fact he'd be in jail if he had lost the election, and that his blame America stance is no different than the Muslim blame the Jews stance, created alienation long before the Iraq war. Not all of us thought he was cool just because he blamed America.

Posted by 2b 2006-02-27 12:48|| 2006-02-27 12:48|| Front Page Top

#12 The French have never really been our friends. Imperial France occasionally helped us against their blood enemies, the British. But since the French Revolution, never. We bailed them out twice in WWI and WWII, but that was only because they were allied with the British. That help was always resented by the elites. France dropped out of NATO. In 1966, France withdrew its military from NATO and demanded that all non-French NATO troops leave France (relocating NATO HQ to Brussels). During the Cold War, France was always cozier with the Russians than the West. When I was in the AF, France was one of the countries with whom we could not share information because it was assumed that what was in Paris today would be in Moscow tomorrow.

With his approval rating hovering around 20%, Chirac has decided to become our friend only because he has lost all support internally.

Posted by RWV 2006-02-27 13:32|| 2006-02-27 13:32|| Front Page Top

#13 "I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me."

-- G. S. Patton

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2006-02-27 13:58|| 2006-02-27 13:58|| Front Page Top

#14 A day late and a ~~euro~~ dollar short.

Posted by Zenster 2006-02-27 15:30|| 2006-02-27 15:30|| Front Page Top

#15 2B - I used "extreme" deliberately - meaning more overt, more widespread in society etc.

"To some of us, his oil for food scams, bribes, coddling dictators, the fact he'd be in jail if he had lost the election, and that his blame America stance is no different than the Muslim blame the Jews stance, created alienation long before the Iraq war. Not all of us thought he was cool just because he blamed America"

Number 1, I was focusing on state to state relations, not individuals. Second, I was focusing on French hostility to the US, not the other way around. Since the posted article is about a(purported) change in FRENCH attitudes and policies, I would have thought that was clear. Sorry if my prose was imprecise.

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-27 16:50|| 2006-02-27 16:50|| Front Page Top

#16 "One difference between French appeasement and American appeasement is that France pays ransom in cash and gets its hostages back while the United States pays ransom in arms and gets additional hostages taken."-William Saffire

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-27 16:56|| 2006-02-27 16:56|| Front Page Top

#17 "Never will I believe that the soul of France is dead! Never will I believe that her place amongst the greatest nations of the world has been lost forever." Winston Churchill

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-27 17:03|| 2006-02-27 17:03|| Front Page Top

#18 I think RWV gets to the heart of the matter.

I would suggest that the Iraq war forced the French to finally see that their anti-West bias is nothing more than politicians distracting from their own failures, in exactly the same way that Muslims leaders use Jews.

I understand your point, but I do not believe that the Iraq war caused the extreme alienation between the French and Americans as the French already completely secure in their sense of superiority. Though I will grant that it did cause extreme alienation between the Americans towards the French.

Rather, I think that American response to the war on terror v/s the abject failure of the French governments supposedly superior diplomatic handling of the Iraq crisis forced the French to see their own government in a brand new light.

Posted by 2b 2006-02-27 17:18|| 2006-02-27 17:18|| Front Page Top

#19 2b, I think part of that is Bush letting the EU3 handle Iran multilaterally. They got nothing but egg on their faces.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-02-27 17:22|| 2006-02-27 17:22|| Front Page Top

#20 Chirac throws in with US. It's time for self-reflection for US---what are we doing wrong?

Posted by gromgoru 2006-02-27 18:51|| 2006-02-27 18:51|| Front Page Top

#21 As we sit here and bash the French, in my opinion most deservingly so, we all bitched that the French need to dot this or that. Now they are turning to try to work together, should we give them a big "No thanks"? Are we just venting or stupid? The French are weak, cowards, and not trustworthy, but they are a nation that has the capability to sell Nuclear technology and biotech capabilities to our enemies. We must pinch our noses and deal with them, bring them on to the teamm, or at least to the table, and try to keep them from becoming a muzzie state in europe with full up nuke capabilities.

Posted by 49 pan">49 pan 2006-02-27 19:32|| 2006-02-27 19:32|| Front Page Top

#22 yup.

Posted by lotp 2006-02-27 19:35|| 2006-02-27 19:35|| Front Page Top

#23 but watch your backs at all times. Every move, declaration has to be scrutinized. Jacques, this is not necessary among allies. I trust Aussie PM Howard to say what he thinks and does. France has a lot to make up for....backstabbing lies costing American lives among them. If there's a sea change, then welcome, and don't begrudge us our worst suspicions for the next couple decades, eh?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-02-27 21:34|| 2006-02-27 21:34|| Front Page Top

23:58 .com
23:36 eltoroverde
23:33 Rafael
23:26 C-Low
23:23 Rafael
23:16 Barbara Skolaut
23:13 Barbara Skolaut
23:12 DMFD
23:11 C-Low
22:52 trailing wife
22:49 Glenmore
22:38 JosephMendiola
22:38 Lt. Frank G Drebbin
22:36 .com
22:34 RWV
22:32 Alaska Paul
22:32 JosephMendiola
22:31 trailing wife
22:30 rjschwarz
22:24 rjschwarz
22:23 rjschwarz
22:22 Frank G
22:21 Frank G
22:20 lotp