Article

2008-08-13 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia

Russian military moves towards Tbilisi in defiance of Nicolas Sarkozy's peace deal

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Posted by Bulldog 2008-08-13 11:22|| || Front Page|| [1 views ] Top

#1 Russia-The friends and funders of all our enemies!!!

Things wont channge till Putin and his Cronies are Forced out!!!

Read Livichenkos books re FSB/KGB control of the country and their dodgy pals eg Drug dealers,terrorist etc!!!

Posted by Paul 2008-08-13 11:38|| 2008-08-13 11:38|| Front Page Top

#2 They'd better start building nuclear power plants throughout the EU now. Or perhaps France, which seems to have no maidenly scruples against such things, can set itself up as the alternative power supplier to Russia. Can we help the Eastern European and Baltic nations build set up power plants for themselves? Surely with all the plans being approved here, one of them would function nicely as a turn-key operation.

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2008-08-13 11:43|| 2008-08-13 11:43|| Front Page Top

#3 The column (of Ossetian volunteers) turned off the main road towards a supply base the Russians are building.

Posted by john frum 2008-08-13 11:48|| 2008-08-13 11:48|| Front Page Top

#4 Halpin said that the column turned off the Tbilisi road after about 20km and headed east to the village of Orjosani, where the Russians appeared to be preparing some kind of supply base. Many of those with the column were Ossetian irregulars identified by a piece of white cloth tied around their right arms.

Posted by john frum 2008-08-13 11:49|| 2008-08-13 11:49|| Front Page Top

#5 finally ...

Bush orders US Air Force-Navy humanitarian airlift to Georgia
DEBKAfile Special Report

August 13, 2008, 7:07 PM (GMT+02:00)

Bush starts to remove the gloves
He demanded that Russia open all routes to these deliveries and to civilian transit.

DEBKAfiles military sources report that the strong military actions a furious US president George W. Bush ordered Wednesday, Aug. 13, after seven days of Russian-Georgian warfare, amount to a bid to break the sea, land and air blockade Russia still maintains against Georgia in violation of the EU-brokered ceasefire.

The first direct US-Russian military clashes in Georgia are now possible if the Russians fail to give way when challenged by US air transports and vessels heading for Georgia. For seven days, Russia has exerted exclusive mastery of Georgias skies, sea and land routes.

Flanked by the secretaries of state and defense, Bush said that Robert Gates as head of the military had already sent the first US Air Force transport with humanitarian and medical aid on its way to Georgia.

Our military sources report that the US air corridor has a short distance to fly from US bases in Italy and Turkey.

The US president accused Moscow of violating the less than one-day old ceasefire fire in its conflict with Georgia, by sending Russian tanks and APCs to the east of the Georgian town of Gori, threatening the capital Tbilisi, bombing the Black Sea port of Poti and sinking Georgian vessels.

Bush reiterated US support for Georgias democratically-elected government and territorial integrity and declared Russia must cease all military acts and withdraw to positions held before the conflict flared. Russian must keep its word and act to end this crisis, if it wants to achieve its aspirations in the international community.

The Bush statement Wednesday followed reports of Russian tanks entering Gori after the ceasefire, and some 15 armored personnel carriers heading out of the devastated ghost city and blocking the highway connected South Ossetia to the rest of Georgia. Russian irregulars were reported killing, burning and looting in Gori and destroying ammunition dumps. A Georgian checkpoint has been placed outside Tbilisi.

Russia was also said to have shot down two Georgian spy drones over the breakaway province.

Posted by Legolas 2008-08-13 12:23|| 2008-08-13 12:23|| Front Page Top

#6 CNN correspondent Matthew Chance... said most soldiers refused to comment, but one told him: "We have come here with the approval of the Georgian people."

Now where I've heard that before? Oh, I remember now!

August 21, 1968; Brno, Czechoslovakia.

Yes, I remember as if it were today. I can never forget.

Sooo, McZoid, Russians are now different, right?

I am not inclined to yell profanities, generally, but if I were, I would be yelling "Fuck you!"

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-13 12:35|| 2008-08-13 12:35|| Front Page Top

#7 This nonsense has gone on long enough. I think it would be appropriate at this point to include a few thousand NATO troops in the airlift. My guess is if they were stationed in and around Tbilisi the Russians would have enough sense not to engage them. I happen to believe Putin was right about Kosovo but that's no excuse to let him conquer Georgia. He needs to get the hell out of Gori and he needs to back off now.

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2008-08-13 13:57|| 2008-08-13 13:57|| Front Page Top

#8 Crap. Previous comment eaten. Oh Fred-d-d-d-d-d ...

Look at a map: we have no good military solution. The Russians control air and sea access to Georgia, and we can't change that without a major, major confrontation. That's probably something we don't want to do.

NATO can't help -- more importantly won't help -- more importantly, shouldn't help. NATO is an organization without a mission, and several major NATO countries have no interest whatsoever in defending Georgia. They've made that clear. If we push the issue through NATO it will mean the end of that organization (whether that is a feature or bug is a topic for a different conversation).

We can't get to Georgia, realistically, without the help and permission of the Turks. Note that they aren't exactly our best friends. They have to live in the neighborhood and they've never been good friends with the Georgians. They may be quite content to let the Georgians twist.

Now then: if there is no military solution (and I maintain that there isn't), then George Bush has relatively few options right now. He can mount a humanitarian mission (in progress), he can work behind the scenes with other countries (e.g., Poland), and he can work around the margins to make life more uncomfortable for the Russians (e.g., no G8 membership). But we're not going to provoke the Russians into a rash confrontation, because we'd be all alone. The Europeans simply won't risk their economy by risking their natural gas supplies. The other Russian neighbors (e.g., Armenia) won't risk their own independence to help us. And we just can't surge through the Bosporous.

We're stuck in the short term. The long-term is a question we should be asking of both Senators McCain and Obama.

Posted by Steve White 2008-08-13 15:49|| 2008-08-13 15:49|| Front Page Top

#9 Look at a map: we have no good military solution. The Russians control air and sea access to Georgia, and we can't change that without a major, major confrontation. That's probably something we don't want to do.

I fundamentally agree. NATO troops fighting Russians in Georgia is not the solution.

NATO can't help -- more importantly won't help -- more importantly, shouldn't help. NATO is an organization without a mission

I very broadly disagree.

, and several major NATO countries have no interest whatsoever in defending Georgia. They've made that clear. If we push the issue through NATO it will mean the end of that organization (whether that is a feature or bug is a topic for a different conversation).

a different convo indeed.

We can't get to Georgia, realistically, without the help and permission of the Turks. Note that they aren't exactly our best friends. They have to live in the neighborhood and they've never been good friends with the Georgians. They may be quite content to let the Georgians twist.

I respectfully think you have the players confused. The Azeris and the Turks have been workign quite closely with the Georgians and that is very reflected in the pipeline routes. The Armenians OTOH are favorable to the Russians. And the Armenians are also closer to the Iranians, who are hostile the Azeribaijanis. I know that doesnt quite match the sense of good guys and bad guys some folks have based on religion and clash of civ theory, but in this region language, sect, and geopolitics complicate all that.

Not that I think we should be sening in troops, but I wouldnt blame the Turks.

Now then: if there is no military solution (and I maintain that there isn't), then George Bush has relatively few options right now. He can mount a humanitarian mission (in progress), he can work behind the scenes with other countries (e.g., Poland), and he can work around the margins to make life more uncomfortable for the Russians (e.g., no G8 membership).

I dont consider those minor actions. WE cant fight the Russians, but the Georgians can continue to. This was great for Putin when it looked like an easy victory in a few days, breaking the Georgian army and sending Saakashvili packing. If Saak survives in power, if the georgian army regroups, and if Russia ends up settling for marginal improvements to its position on the ground in S Ossetia, that may still be a russian victory, but its a very different kind - perhaps a pyricc victory in the long run - granted only in the long run, but short term actions set up that long run.

But we're not going to provoke the Russians into a rash confrontation, because we'd be all alone. The Europeans simply won't risk their economy by risking their natural gas supplies.

If youre saying they wont do something rash like sending troops, I agree. That doesnt mean there arent things they can be persuaded to do that will put a fair amount of pain on Russia, esp given that Russia did NOT stop with "reasonable gains" but decided to go for what EUROPEANS will think of as disproportionately far.

The other Russian neighbors (e.g., Armenia) won't risk their own independence to help us.

the armenians expect the Russians to protect them in Nagorno-Karabakh. They DONT LIKE THE GEORGIANS, they DO like the russians (going back 150 years or so).

And we just can't surge through the Bosporous.

Again, it doesnt matter, we're not sending troops in anyway. It would have been one thing had Georgia been IN NATO, but it isnt.

We're stuck in the short term.

again, I disagree. The short term positions the long term. In particular the reaction of the Georgian people will dramatically effect the extent to which Putin can reasonably spin this as a victory, and since such spin, and the image as the strong horse (and by implication the West as the weak horse) is precisely one of the main goals of the op, it is CRUCIAL that we do what we can to impact the Georgian reaction.

The long-term is a question we should be asking of both Senators McCain and Obama.

Agreed.

Posted by supergalitz 2008-08-13 16:05|| 2008-08-13 16:05|| Front Page Top

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