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2005-05-31 Iraq-Jordan
Battle for Baghdad begins
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Posted by mmurray821 2005-05-31 15:10|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [6467 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 And we will see this in the MSM when

In all fairness to the MSM, we've been hearing reports of cash captured, weapons caches captured, jihadis killed or detained, etc for two years. We still dont really know which resource is the constraining one for the jihadis, or when we'll have gotten enough to effect OUTPUTS like the number of Iraqi civilians killed.

Not that Im not hopeful. We ARE seeing some new things - esp. the increasing effectiveness of Iraqi forces, more tips, etc. And political gains, as Sunni Arab leaders start to accept the inevitability of the Iraqi political process. But whether thats going to turn the tide any time soon is impossible to say. Fewer civilian deaths in June? "Inshallah". But Im not counting on it.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-05-31 15:47||   2005-05-31 15:47|| Front Page Top

#2 It would also be nice to see fewer US troops killed (we will lose over 70 in May 2005 which is not as many as some of the peak months but still a lot).

Another thing to remember is that Op Lightening is the first really big Iraqi coordinated sweep. They are bound to have some screw ups, some holes, some blunders. However, hopefully, they will also learn somethings also. Also, hopefully, there will be some more hometown heros come out of this.
Posted by mhw 2005-05-31 16:24||   2005-05-31 16:24|| Front Page Top

#3 I see one of the biggest deterrents beginning shortly, with the hanging of the three terrorists. It was suggested that a lot of the idiots think that if they are arrested on terrorism charges, that they are looking at 3 to 5 in the jug. But when they start to see their fellows dangling from the gibbet at frequent intervals, there is going to be a run on Greyhound Bus tickets back home. In the first year alone, several hundred of these mongrels could productively swing, and that will have a strong effect of the remainder.
Posted by Anonymoose 2005-05-31 17:18||   2005-05-31 17:18|| Front Page Top

#4 There are many positive signals here. Seeing terrorists swing will be another very positive factor. Of course it will get the Euro-panties into a bunch, but who cares. As the Iraqis beging to really take over and take it to the terrorists, the good guys will win more and more.
Posted by remoteman 2005-05-31 17:28||   2005-05-31 17:28|| Front Page Top

#5 I believe that the money is the key. From my interaction with Saudis and the other Arab states I visited (Bahrain, Qatar, UAE), I see three aspects to it: Jihadi romanticism, the cost of doing bidness - Arab-style, and imam indoctrination.

Uh oh. I'm getting that funny feeling that AllahPundit used to get, methinks...

[ranty-rant-rant]
First, there is a great deal of what we would probably characterize as romanticism in the appeals for jihadis. Arabic is a visual language, as you folks may recall in the early days when analysis of Saddam's speeches was offered. This ties in with their Bedu folklore and qu'uranic teachings, too. Additionally, the demographics add to the appeal - a life of brave derring-do vs. hanging out at Starbucks with the other unemployed young men.

Second, and this may be more powerful, money talks even moreso than in the US. Great status is conferred on those who can afford to take in large chunks of their immediate family. For example, in '92 I lived across the street from a guy who owned and filled an entire 6 story apartment building with relatives and had 2 Suburbans to haul them all around. That he could support 4 wives - about 20 kids (that I saw come out of the place), brothers and their families, and who knows how many others, made him the big guy on the block. If you have few or no prospects to achieve such status, you opt for the alternative status-generators, and there are only 2 I was personally told about: superior piousness (attracting the imam-wannabees and muttawa types) and Arab Hero - jihadi.

Without the cash to get around, buy weapons and goodies, etc, much of the shine wears off - and fast. Trundling off to jihad by camel or beat-up Toyota pickup isn't exactly romantic - and they know it. The global jihadi jetset is what the Arab Hero aspires to - their shiny new Lion of Islam Legend. Mohammed Atta's Frequent Flyer miles. And it takes cash. Oodles of cash, to get the people and matériel smuggled in - or to buy matériel locally once in Iraq. Arabs are nothing, if not hardcore haggling hardballers of commerce. Almost every one of these guys is a mix of True Believer, Mercenary, and Romantic Fool - just varying in degree. Take the money away and the whole thing begins to dry up. This is another aspect to why taking the source of funds, the oil, would work. If you know you will never get another new dime, even if you have millions, will you keep giving it to jihadis who are being ground up in the Big Green Machine to little effect? Unless the terrorists are obviously on the cusp of victory, the answer is NO. Cut off the flow of money, and they tighten up faster than anyone I've ever seen.

Third is the fire in which these Fools are forged - the Imams and their indoctrination. If the Saudis or Paleos or Yemenis were even remotely serious, this is where they'd crack down. Money and power drives these guys, too, but the money sources are either directly or indirectly controlled by the Govts. You'd have to threaten, believably, to make it very painful financially if the support doesn't stop to get any cooperation. We see this in Saudi. Lots of Govt pronouncements and the occasional nabbing of an imam, but the translated screeds keep coming out to prove it's a joke. The indoctrination and exportation of the product, jihadi fodder, continues because none of the Govts are serious about helping in the WoT. They are behind and supporting Terror. Find a way to cut of the money (oil) and it will break the cycle in 2 places. The imams are also a mix of True Believer and Mercenary, surprise, surprise. Cut off the cash, and the number peddling jihad, which they are paid to promote, drops to the fraction who are the pure True Believer.

There's no getting around it: as long as they have the oil money, the jihad game does not stop. Two obvious ways to affect it have been bandied about: reduce dependence and take away the oil sands. China and others will fill the gap in the first instance for a long time to come. the only thing left is to take away the source.

There's this 40km-wide strip of land running along the Eastern coast of the Persian Gulf...

Of course, lacking the stones to do that, we'll have to acquire the stones to wreak great vengeance when it become obvious, after more strikes on the US, that they aren't going to quit. The sad fact is that they can't. Everything they are, everything they believe, and everything that drives them demands our submission or ruin or both. It's all in the qu'uran. It's as clear as glass. Even the once uber-compassionate are talking some tough talk, these days. Why, those who once counseled Bush to make alliances and demonstrate our open-mindedness have come to realize it won't work. They've come along way, but they still have a long way to go, having started to the Left of PCism. Now? Well now it takes a special kind of person not to see it, and an even bigger special kind of person not to do more about it than to continue to offer group hugs and lame let's be buds, dood. It's sad, but they can't hear you if they're the activated variety, and they're too gutless to help you if they're the dormant variety. In the end, they are one and the same. Those who say otherwise are dangerous. The myth has to die. But, sigh, it won't - until we have paid another heavy penalty or two. It just feels too good to the dogmatic do-gooders to give up their fix. Mebbe it's the remnant of a good feeling they had once - like getting laid during a Peace March or something. Who knows - and who cares. It's fucking idiocy. They're going to get more of us killed.

Note that even the shock of limited vengeance, as it has been applied so far (read: Exit Taliban and Exit Saddam), isn't really working other than to distract and occupy them with flypaper. Not very bright are they? And not dissuaded by"message" vengeance - where you try to reason with them by demonstrating that they can't win. Message Foreign Policy ("Let's send them a message!") has been, if you take a good look, favored by those Presidents who FAILED when dealing with idiots. The message doesn't mean much if your opponent is a radicalized Communist (i.e. Johnson - Vietnam) or jihadi (i.e. Clinton - Islam and Norkies), now does it? No. It works only on intelligent people, such as the Japanese. Two shots and they got it. They're anything BUT stupid. What about the Islamists? Two shots and they still haven't a clue, do they? No. They don't.

The "message" gig won't work here. Gonna have to slog it out. So the vengeance I have in mind does more than just disrupt the game and distract them with flypaper - it destroys their ability to wage jihad. It's a mean vicious motherfucker that makes no excuses, doesn't apologize for defending our way of life, doesn't apologize to insane people for imaginary slights, doesn't give a rat-fuck what the timid gutless PC-driven mice have to say, and doesn't compromise. It gives fair warning and then follows up by decapping the terrorist-enabling Govts - and taking the oil away to prevent the follow-on from continuing to be terrorist-enablers.

If the calculation that this will dry up jihad enough for us to live with, to cohabitate on this planet, is wrong, then it accepts the horrible news -- and destroys all traces of the pathogen. We won't even save a sample for Ft Detrick's freezer. It sanitizes and cauterizes the wound. It doesn't say another word, it just fries 'em up.

To the horrified because I'm so bad:
Gosharoonies! Can I say that out loud? Oh me. Oh my. How evil of me! How horrid! I must be eviiil incarnate!

That they can preach this same thing every Friday, yeah, that's okie-dokie. For me to say it is evil. Right. Grasp the handrail before you float away on the pixie dust, wanker. No, wait - just Fuck Off. I believe we are the good guys, even if forced to wipe out the bad guys. Ain't that just a bitch? Lol! Bite me.

But then that's just me. Must be a bad-hair day, I guess.
[/ranty-rant-rant]

Just my observations.
Posted by .com 2005-05-31 20:59||   2005-05-31 20:59|| Front Page Top

#6 Next time, please don't sugar coat it.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-05-31 21:17||   2005-05-31 21:17|| Front Page Top

#7 Well, Brother Dave D. defined it rather clearly. I recognize that Bush wants to find an alternative, i.e. #4, that will allow for cohabitation. So, whether I believe it will work or not, we'll go along with him for awhile and see. I fear we'll end up with something else, however. They're not proving to be worth warm spit in the effort to save them from themselves.
Posted by .com 2005-05-31 21:34||   2005-05-31 21:34|| Front Page Top

#8 We've got to try, .com. Because if it comes to slaughter, we need to know that we tried first.
Posted by too true 2005-05-31 21:51||   2005-05-31 21:51|| Front Page Top

#9 I understand, tt - I don't want to go there, either -and sorta said so in #7. But there is a core problem with Islam and no amount of maneuvering and massaging of the facts gets us around the problem: if they are unwilling to quit trying, what do we do? That was my point in the rant. I believe they won't give us the choice - and I am anticipating the eventualities.
Posted by .com 2005-05-31 22:00||   2005-05-31 22:00|| Front Page Top

#10 "So, whether I believe it will work or not, we'll go along with [Bush] for awhile and see. I fear we'll end up with something else, however. They're not proving to be worth warm spit in the effort to save them from themselves."

I think that's a fair assessment; I've seen little to encourage me so far. I think most people will reserve judgement on the results of this "Middle East Democracy" experiment until Bush leaves office-- but then the clock will have run out: a solid consensus will emerge that either Islamic/Arab culture can be reformed and de-toxified, or it cannot.

And if we end up deciding that they are incorrigible, God have mercy on them if they pull off another mass-casualty attack on American soil. Because we won't.
Posted by Dave D. 2005-05-31 22:17||   2005-05-31 22:17|| Front Page Top

#11 .com I think you hit the nail right on the head. It may take a couple more 9/11's before the idea sinks into some peoples minds that they are all out to kill us or make us their slaves. Some will simply never get it and will continue crying 'Impeach Bush' and 'Can't we all just get along' until the very end.

Its been spelled out in the Koran for over a thousand years -- written there by an insane pedophile murderer and rapist every bit as bad - even worse - then Hitler ever was. The only difference is that nobody stopped deranged Mo before his special kind of sickness grew to what it is today.

I think we will have to try to treat this particular cancer for a while more before we go get the knife. Some cancers have to be cut out.
Posted by CrazyFool 2005-05-31 22:41||   2005-05-31 22:41|| Front Page Top

00:05 JosephMendiola
23:32 Cyber Sarge
23:30 Cyber Sarge
23:24 Rafael
23:07 Tony (UK)
23:03 SteveS
22:47 Phil Fraering
22:42 badanov
22:42 Phil Fraering
22:41 CrazyFool
22:25 Sheik Abu Bin Ali Al-Yahood
22:25 Frank G
22:21 Bomb-a-rama
22:20 CrazyFool
22:17 Dave D.
22:14 Barbara Skolaut
22:12 Elmereper Jomosing1480
22:02 Rex Mundi
22:01 eLarson
22:00 Frank G
22:00 Atomic Conspiracy
22:00 .com
21:56 Frank G
21:55 eLarson
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