Article

2005-11-18 Afghanistan-Pak-India

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Posted by Steve 2005-11-18 10:17|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I hope the IAF doesn't believe its hype.

Posted by Wheating Ometh7431 2005-11-18 10:26|| 2005-11-18 10:26|| Front Page Top

#2 During the last Cope India exercise in February 2004, American F-15 pilots had admitted finding it bizarre that their Indian counterparts had routed them in many maneuvers.

As I recall, our side didn't leverage all its strengths. But no matter, it's only an exercise. Were it to be a real-life scenario, I seriously doubt that hobbling ourselves like that would even be considered.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-11-18 10:34|| 2005-11-18 10:34|| Front Page Top

#3 I seriously doubt that hobbling ourselves like that would even be considered.

Really? It seems that all we ever do is hobble ourselves with hyper-legalistic ROEs and absurd PC niceties.

Posted by Dreadnought 2005-11-18 10:37|| 2005-11-18 10:37|| Front Page Top

#4 At the last COPE INDIA, the F-15 jocks operated under restricted ROE's that would not exist in comabt.

Posted by anymouse">anymouse 2005-11-18 11:30|| 2005-11-18 11:30|| Front Page Top

#5 Sounds like the scenario was vs. China, no? I know they've been working an AWACs killer.

There was some blog speculation the USAF sandbagged the last Cope India just to show how badly they needed the F-22. From what I know, I agree we need the F-22 and JSF pretty badly.

Still, the pilots, ground crews and aircraft the IAF brought to Cope are probably very good in terms of training and avionics. They're modernizing and we should not judge them on their old MiG 21 issues.

Fortunately the biggest geopolitical gain for the Bush admin is that we now consider India an 'ally.' This is a huge turnaround from the cold war days. They are a largely english speaking nuclear power with a billion people, growing tech industry and a military that's not afraid to fight and they're located next to both Pakland and China. Not a bad ally to pickup when we're losing them in Europe.

This relationship is bearing immediate benefits in the GWOT and will come in handy when Korea wigs out, China starts to use the military capabilities it's building and Japan dies of old age.

Posted by JAB 2005-11-18 11:31|| 2005-11-18 11:31|| Front Page Top

#6 That's one hell of a song-and-dance. Hope the Indians buy heavily-slathered flattery.

Posted by Mitch H.">Mitch H. 2005-11-18 12:37|| http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/]">[http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/] 2005-11-18 12:37|| Front Page Top

#7 I dont think I would call Japan a dying nation. The Japaneese have woken up and are on a path back to when they were powerful Asian nation. Its amazing how having a acient enemy from literaly the begining of time showing up on your door step snooping around and claiming things, can do that to a nation. EU now that is a dying nation if not already dead. India is a growing power that has strong ties to the west speaks english and is a strong economic ties to the US. They will make a good ally although they do have a strong Socialist movement that by the way we have here aswell and the EU is just as bad or worse than India in this aspect. Either way socialism is not enemy number one today it is Radical Islam and the possiblity of a Expansionist Communist China, both of these two senerios puts India as a ally.

Posted by C-Low 2005-11-18 12:56|| 2005-11-18 12:56|| Front Page Top

#8 It seems that all we ever do is hobble ourselves with hyper-legalistic ROEs and absurd PC niceties.

True enough, but since any actual aerial combat raises the possibility of losing a very expensive aircraft, the brass, if they're smart, won't even entertain the idea of not using all the tools in the toolbox.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-11-18 14:45|| 2005-11-18 14:45|| Front Page Top

#9 Su-30's are planes from end of 80's and with thrust vectoring F-15s are from end of 70's no surprising at all that they were beaten. Adding to helmet mounted sights and other gadgets in Indian planes.

In US the name of the game is pork. Lots of money in military goes to pork and programs that last 20-30 years and show not much results.

Posted by Unetch Flinetch3868 2005-11-18 14:48|| 2005-11-18 14:48|| Front Page Top

#10 I hope China and Pakistan paied attention.

Posted by Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom 2005-11-18 15:25|| 2005-11-18 15:25|| Front Page Top

#11 From an Indian journalist present at the exercise

The basic point here is that we may all need to have a small rethink on our jingo-baba ways ... While the performance of Indian pilots was exemplary ... both American and Indian exercise commanders repeatedly told me that so far no one had collected numbers on the individual kills of pilots. What was collected and analysed were the mission objectives and whether they were met. Remember, not all missions were run with the objective of pilots targeting one another ... Many of the 300 missions which were flown were meant for joint training, working out engagement procedures ... partially simulating attack runs etc.

Also, please note ... the majority of missions were joint missions ... not missions where Indians targeted Americans ... So there were missions where formations of Sukhois, Mirages and F-16s took on F-16s, Bisons and Sukhois ... so while it is true that Indian pilots were engaging Americans flying F-16s ... its also true that they were engaging Indian pilots as well. Also, Americans were engaging American aircraft as well.

The bottom line here ... in terms of what Indian pilots did which was impressive ... According to my sources, Indian pilots were extremely impressive in the Large Fighter Engagement exercise where 15 plus aircraft were in the air. Both sides were being given targeting data by the AWACS ... and Indian pilots were apparently much quicker off the mark than their American counterparts in attacking targets which they had been assigned. In other words, they worked well in an AWACS environment.

As far as the WVR Su-30 MKI engagement was concerned ... there were at least two engagements ... one where the MKI was offensive and one where it was defensive. Though I suspect the MKI won the one on one when it was in an offensive position ... I am not sure what happened when it was defensive.

Thats pretty much what I figured out in the little time I was there.

To be absolutely certain, the US Air Force was glowing in its remarks on the pilot skills of Indian pilots. The US General who was around also said ... repeatedly ... I might add ... that the exercise organised in Kalaikunda was the single most impressive exercise of its type which he had seen in decades of being with the USAF.

As far as showmanship was concerned ... There were two F-16s which took off ... the first flew level gaining height steadily ... and then pulled big time ... to go into a Vertical Charlie ... very impressive. The second F-16 I saw also did a vertical jig ... This was done in plain view of the MiG 29U driver who was next to take off ... and he didn't spare the Americans ... the big smoking Tumanskiis announcing his take off run ... and in about half the take off distance of the Americans he pulled ... went vertical immediately ... but not before he pointed his tail squarely at us journos ... the noise was predictably increadible ... and the message of that young jock seemed clear ...

Three other small points ... an An-32 pilot who was tasked to be a high value target had a huge smile on his face ... Though he refused to tell me all the details ... he did say that try as they did ... the opposition F-16s and Indian jets just couldn't lock him up ... He did of course have a fighter escort of his own ...

An AWACS radar operator reportedly told another journalist that the aircraft he loved vectoring the most was the Bison.

and finally ... a Qualis taxi driver paid no attention to instructions ... and passed directly in front of an F-16 which was taxying ... The American had to break sharply ... and looked distinctly irritated ...

At one level ... the Americans are clearly amazed at the Bison ... which was capable of successfully engaging the F-16s ... the radar signature of the Bison is also quite small ...

I suppose the AWACS operator could have been impressed at how it may have been for him to get a track on the Bison ... though this is just me speculating. I don't know more.

There were obviously lots of variables in each exercises ... but like in the past .. there were fly zones, no fly zones and neutral zones .... where the awacs was deployed ... Each exercise had very specific objectives ... and there was no free for all at all.

Posted by john 2005-11-18 16:49|| 2005-11-18 16:49|| Front Page Top

#12 Meanwhile, in the Thar desert...

Indian Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee Friday joined military officials from 40 countries, including China and the US, to watch Indian armed forces showcase their firepower and strike capabilities here.

It is the first time that India has invited military observers from foreign countries to witness one of its wargames. Exercise Desert Strike in the deserts of Pokhran featured tank and artillery units of the army and frontline combat jets of the air force.

"It is a novel idea that observers have been invited to witness the exercise. The basic objective of India's foreign and security policy is based on two no's - no territorial ambition and no export of ideology," said the minister.

He added that the exercise would help foreigners "see the professionalism of our armed forces".

Senior Colonel Li Zhao of China spoke in fluent Hindi and said: "My impression is the armies of both countries are almost equal in terms of capabilities. The fact that we have been invited shows Indian and Chinese relations are becoming better.

"This will allow us to understand each other and cooperate," he said.

Pakistan, however, was not among the nations invited to send observers, with the top brass of the armed forces deciding to throw open the manoeuvres only to "friendly countries in the immediate and strategic neighbourhood".

Exercise Desert Strike, a 10-day exercise that began Nov 11, is meant to fine-tune doctrines for joint operations by a strike corps - or almost 25,000 troops - of the Indian Army and combat squadrons of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

"The army and air force will test their new equipment, like the T-90 missile-firing tanks, Tungushka air defence systems, unmanned aerial vehicles and communication and surveillance equipment," Brigadier Gurpal Bal had told reporters in New Delhi Wednesday.

Bal and Group Captain B. Suresh of the air force said the exercise would prepare troops for fast-paced manoeuvres in the desert with electronic and information warfare playing a key role.

Posted by john 2005-11-18 16:50|| 2005-11-18 16:50|| Front Page Top

#13 Something quite odd about that last article.
An Indian Armor Strike Corps consists of several divisions , much, much more than 25,000 men but under the new Cold Start doctrine of the Indian Army, they are moving away from their Strike/Holding Corps formations and into smaller integrated battle groups.
25,0000 is larger than a division and seems excessive for a battle group

Posted by john 2005-11-18 16:58|| 2005-11-18 16:58|| Front Page Top

#14 Interesting news - enhanced interaction between the special forces of the US and Indian Navies

ENHANCED INTERACTION BETWEEN SPECIAL FORCES DISCUSSED AT NINTH IN-USN ESG
16:45 IST
The Ninth Meeting of the Executive Steering Group (ESG) was held at Naval Headquarters, New Delhi on 16 and 17 Nov 05. The meeting was co-chaired by Vice Admiral JS Bedi, the Deputy Chief of Naval Staff and Vice Admiral Jonathan W Greenert, Commander of the US Navy's 7th Fleet based at Yokosuka, Japan. The two flag officers were assisted at the ESG by their respective staff. The US delegation included Rear Admiral Victor Guillory, Commander Task Force 76 and 25 other officers. The ninth ESG addressed issues such as the 3-year Operational Co-operation Plan between IN and USN, the need and methods to increase the complexity of the IN-USN MALABAR series of exercises and measures to increase the interaction between the special forces of both navies.

In addition, the ESG meeting also addressed the important issue of Common Operational Plot for enhanced interoperability between the two navies and measures to facilitate speedy communication and transfer of operational information. Various options were also discussed to improve the situational awareness in the Indian Ocean with special emphasis on combating terrorism and piracy at sea.

The Executive Steering Group (ESG) is an institutionalised mechanism designed to further service-to-service interaction between the two navies within the ambit of Indo-US defence co-operation. The ESG has a high level Navy-to-Navy component, known as the Naval ESG. The Naval ESG meets annually and is chaired jointly by Indian Naval and US Naval Officers of the rank of Vice Admiral. The main function of the Naval ESG is to define the path along which both navies need to engage each other, so as to ensure mutual benefit. The ongoing interaction between the navies of India and USA stems from a three-year roll on plan, which is determined and reviewed in successive meetings of the ESG.

Posted by john 2005-11-18 17:06|| 2005-11-18 17:06|| Front Page Top

#15 More on the Desert Strike Exercise

The exercise, the first of its kind, showcased the Army's concept of 'Network Centric Warfare', revolving around the "key elements of synergisation and co-ordination of a vast array of sensors like radars, electro optical devices, thermal images and UAV's through the Battlefield Surveillance System (BSS)".

The system serves to increase battlefield transparency as also optimize ' sensors to shooter' links, thereby generating higher precision in weapons delivery and lethal degradation of the enemy.

...

The exercise was also witnessed by 24 observers of 16 friendly countries from the immediate and strategic neighbourhood and 39 Defence Attaches posted in India, another first of its kind.

Lt. Colonel Philip Turner, the Assistant Army Attachi, USA, said that relations between India and the US were growing steadily and getting stronger by the day.

"India and the US recently held 'Malabar 05', and 'Cope India 05' is still going on. Military ties between the two countries are growing steadily," said Lt. Col Turner.

He also praised the professionalism of the Indian Armed Forces and said that the exercise brought out the best in the troops.

"In today's world, every country has access to sophisticated technology, but the manner in which the Indian armed forces executed the plan with precision, does speak volumes of its professional expertise," he added.

Col. Li Zhao, a senior Colonel of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) who attended the exercise as an observer said that it was good that India had extended invitation to China to watch the live exercise.

"Relations between India and China are improving, and these type of interactions can throw open the possibility of future joint exercises between the Indian and Chinese armed forces," said Col. Zhao.

...

The exercise involved mechanized corps, artillery, air defence, special forces, reconnaissance and air support by the IAF.

The platforms included the T-90 Main Battle tanks (MBTs- Bhishma) capable of firing missiles, Infantry Combat Vehicles, (ICVs) all weather Defence Gun Missile System, Searcher UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles), Bofors guns, Grad and Tunguska Air Defence Systems, Chetak and MI-17 helicopters from Army Aviation for para forces.

The platforms also included OSA-all weather Surface to Air Missiles (SAM), Konkurs Anti Tank and Schilka Air Defence Missiles.

The IAF's hardware included the Mirage-2000 fighter jets, MiG-27s, MiG-21 Bisons, Jaguars, Mi-35 Attack helicopters and An-32 for logistics and para dropping. The IAF also used a plethora of ammunition in its armoury in the exercise, like Precision Guided Munitions (PGMs), cluster bombs, Anti-Tank Missiles (Strum) and rockets for decimating enemy positions in the war exercise.

The exercise also saw the insertion of special para forces by Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH) and para dropping of armour and para forces by An 32 transport aircraft from the IAF.

Posted by john 2005-11-18 20:05|| 2005-11-18 20:05|| Front Page Top

#16 Indian army soldiers drive T-90 tanks during an army exercise 'Desert Strike' at Pokharan in India's desert state of Rajasthan November 18, 2005. REUTERS/Adnan Abidi

Posted by john 2005-11-18 20:06|| 2005-11-18 20:06|| Front Page Top

23:59 ed
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23:42 RG
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23:37 GK
23:34 .com
23:31 ed
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23:27 JosephMendiola
23:24 .com
23:17 SR-71
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