Article

2006-02-21 Africa Subsaharan

Nigerian Christians threaten anti-Muslim reprisals

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Posted by tipper 2006-02-21 08:07|| || Front Page|| [11138 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 two parties can seethe, can't they?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-02-21 08:37|| 2006-02-21 08:37|| Front Page Top

#2 Retaliating against Muslims?
Wait a second. That ain't in the Koran...

Posted by tu3031 2006-02-21 08:44|| 2006-02-21 08:44|| Front Page Top

Redacted by moderator. Comments may be redacted for trolling, violation of standards of good manners, or plain stupidity. Please correct the condition that applies and try again. Contents may be viewed in the
sinktrap. Further violations may result in
banning.

Posted by wxjames 2006-02-21 09:12|| 2006-02-21 09:12|| Front Page Top

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2006-02-21 09:16|| 2006-02-21 09:16|| Front Page Top

#5 The current expectation for Christians is to act honorably even in situations and roles that have no descernable religious role or impact, so my expectation is that, apart from a constitutional amendment, the current Christian President should step down at the end of his second term per the Constitution. The obvious interpretation of Jesus' "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" is that there are partitions in human life and society which have independent authority granted by God which is to be recognized by the Christian: The first amendment is "Caesar's" recognition of the independent authority over the religious aspectes of the Church that are retained by God. "You are the salt of the earth" is the requirement that Christians work to IMPROVE the system, not dominate it.

The demand that the Presidency automatically go to a Muslim is NOT constitutional: let the people vote, per my understanding of their constitution.

The key issue with having a Muslim in power is, unlike a Christian, his religion sees no partitions between the secular and the sacred, and so he will not feel a sense of honor to adhere to restrictions that he believes would hamper his ability to advance Islam. Establishing Dhimminitude is a REQUIREMENT of a Muslim leader. While urging men to be good and honorable, Christianity gives no specific instructions to government leaders on how to run the Government: Jimmy Carter himself admitted that instructions on how to be President were non-existent in the New Testament. Judiasm, in the Torah, does give instructions on how judges and kings are to behave, but the mandate is that the law be applied equally, rich and poor, native or stranger "...because you were strangers in the Land of Egypt" was God's reason for requiring equal treatment of all. This command to treat others with consideration who are in a situation you USED to be in is unique in the ancient world, and totally absent from the Koran. This lack of continuity in asserting the equality of mankind in the Koran is one reason (among others) why I reject its assertion that it is the culmination of Christianity and Judiasm.

Posted by Ptah">Ptah 2006-02-21 09:24|| http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]">[http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2006-02-21 09:24|| Front Page Top

#6 Somehow I suspect the sinktrap will be filling. It will be an interesting study decades hence to review the items sent and not sent to the trap over time.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-02-21 09:58|| 2006-02-21 09:58|| Front Page Top

#7 It is incumbent on Christians to respect and revere martyrs, not aspire to become one. But any thoughts that retaliation will change muslims are dashed on the hard realities of Palestine. Israelis have been dealing an eye for an eye with the muslim hard boys for almost 60 years and the streets still fill.

Posted by RWV 2006-02-21 10:42|| 2006-02-21 10:42|| Front Page Top

#8 Yes, Nimble. It's an honor to be in the sinktrap today.
I must be careful not to encourage violence against muzzies. I must be careful not to encourage violence against muzzies. I must be careful.......

Posted by wxjames 2006-02-21 10:52|| 2006-02-21 10:52|| Front Page Top

#9 Screw that. I've had more than my fill of Muzzie violence against this thing or that thing, typically met with mostly whines or whimpers by large numbers of people that are supposedly on OUR side. Whatever.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2006-02-21 11:11|| 2006-02-21 11:11|| Front Page Top

#10
I see nothing in the sink trap that warrants being there. I guess a few of the moderators are feeling their oats today.

Posted by Nuck Fozzle2168 2006-02-21 11:32|| 2006-02-21 11:32|| Front Page Top

#11 For goodness' sake! Do you have a useful solution to the problem? F'r instance, instead of, "They should kill 'em all," which sounds exactly what that stupid Saudi lad posted here at the beginning of the cartoon riots, how about, "Let's take up a collection to hire Blackstone (was that the company?) mercenaries to teach them how to defend themselves against Muslim pogroms."

Yes, Besoeker, you've done your bit and then some, as have many here, and I haven't. But, although this may sound presumptuous, I come here to help, in my little way, in the War on Terror. I don't come here as a substitute newspaper, or to amused by clever snarking. If -- every once in a while -- a piece of knowledge that I hold, unique to the rest of you, advances the groups's understanding of the enemy we fight, then I have met the original goal of this wonderful place Fred set up after 9/11. And if it happens, that on the day I do such a thing, one of those who is actively in the fight right now (how's it going, Broadhead 6? OldSpook, have you found anything here recently that you can pass on to your friends far beyond the trenches? True German Ally, are you able to keep Fraulein Merkel headed in the right direction?) happens upon it, and does his/her job better as a result, then I will cruise into Heaven on the result, when my time comes.

Just my humble opinion, of course.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-02-21 12:14|| 2006-02-21 12:14|| Front Page Top

#12 In most cases several moderators confer before sinktrapping comments. To reiterate what has been said here by Fred and moderators before: Rantburg is not a place where overt calls to "kill muzzies for Christ's sake" or "burn the xxx embassy" belong.

Neither do gratuitous slurs against entire countries, races or religions.

Please note the difference between, for instance, saying something along the lines of "I'm beginnning to wonder if the West really can coexist with Muslims", or even "the violence and hypocrisy makes me want to xxxx" and the comments that were sinktrapped.

In Besoeker's case, he failed to tone things down despite requests from moderators over several days. He is now poop-listed.

Posted by lotp 2006-02-21 12:16|| 2006-02-21 12:16|| Front Page Top

#13 So what are you saying RWV? Give up? The Muslim's have won?

Posted by plainslow 2006-02-21 12:21|| 2006-02-21 12:21|| Front Page Top

#14 Back-Slam on I-slam! Target the clerics.

Posted by Bright Pebbles 2006-02-21 12:26|| 2006-02-21 12:26|| Front Page Top

#15 Biafra II?

Will France and England support the Muslim side this time like they did last time?

Posted by 3dc 2006-02-21 12:26|| 2006-02-21 12:26|| Front Page Top

#16
Religious violence has killed thousands since 12 northern states introduced Islamic law in 2000, alienating Christians.

Do Muslims kill Christians in Allah's name ?

Posted by wxjames 2006-02-21 13:03|| 2006-02-21 13:03|| Front Page Top

#17 Let's all agree on one thing: one of the unalienable rights of men is to live free. If that requires defending that right with violence against those that would oppress you, then violence is not only acceptable, but necessary. That has been one of the standing principles of our nation since its inception. The Christians in Nigeria have just as much right to defend THEIR freedoms as we in the United States do to defend ours. Islam is an opressive, destructive religion because of its basic principle that everything FROZE IN PLACE with the teachings of Mohammed. That in itself contradicts the entire history of all other religions. The world changes. It's no longer the 7th century. Judaism and Christianity have managed to handle the changes of the modern world. Islam hasn't. It's a doomsday cult, one that directly opposes everything that Judaism and Christianity teach, and needs to be recognized as such. It's nothing more than the Arab's retaliation against Judaism and Christianity for those religions refusing to believe that the sons of Ishmael were the "true descendants" of Abraham. It deserves no honor, no sympathy, and no quarter.

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2006-02-21 13:36|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2006-02-21 13:36|| Front Page Top

#18 Particularly the "no quarter," OP.

Giving in and being "nice" is what got us where we are today.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut 2006-02-21 13:49|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/page/15bk1/Home_Page.html]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/page/15bk1/Home_Page.html] 2006-02-21 13:49|| Front Page Top

#19 apparently past the threat stage.....

Posted by Slavitle Glugum8864 2006-02-21 14:23|| 2006-02-21 14:23|| Front Page Top

#20 Sorry link didn't show up....

try Link

(the guy above)

Posted by Omavilet Shereck2961 2006-02-21 14:24|| 2006-02-21 14:24|| Front Page Top

#21 And you either make a hot link out of it or go to TinyURL when you have a link that big, heh.

Link

http://tinyurl.com/zd8j6

Posted by .com 2006-02-21 14:28|| 2006-02-21 14:28|| Front Page Top

#22 Plainslow, what I tried to say is that self-defense is an inherent right and that Christians who don't want to become martyrs better practice it. The other point is to not expect that killing a few, or even a whole lot more than a few, muslims will change the outlook of the rest. On the whole, I think that the Bush doctrine is probably best. Try to coopt the muslim masses with democracy and civilization while killing the most rabid among them. There will always be fanatics. You protect yourself by killing the fanatics or renedering them impotent.

Posted by RWV 2006-02-21 15:51|| 2006-02-21 15:51|| Front Page Top

#23 rendering

Posted by RWV 2006-02-21 15:53|| 2006-02-21 15:53|| Front Page Top

#24 The Philosophy of Islam is incompatable with the 21st century and the "Western way of life". It is not a philosophy compatable our western political systems apperently. Besides responding with violence to violence what are we as "the west" going to do? Islam is static in it's philosophy. We can't change that and it's practitioners will not as they are not allowed to by it's precepts.

"Killing them all" or killing many of them is a distinct possibility we are faced with. They are pushing us to it. We are not looking to do it as we are hoping "demoracy" will moderate the Philosophy. I am quickly losing confidence that we can overcome the aggresive tribalism and self imposed ghettos and aggressive communities that flourish under the philosophy of Islam. So folks what are our options other than violence? I am not talking "racisim" as this philosophy is not bound by race. When faced with convert or die what is the "west" to do?

Though the 'islamic extremist" are a small minority they are huge in number and can all on the financial and material resources of the entire philosophy. Remember the only about 10% thje population made the US revolutionary war happen.
So again what are we as a civilization going to do?

Posted by Sock Puppet O' Doom 2006-02-21 16:01|| 2006-02-21 16:01|| Front Page Top

#25 Please, let's have some perspective!

It isn't necessary to kill all the Nigerian muslims.

Killing and quartering just the Imams should do the trick.

Posted by mojo">mojo 2006-02-21 16:09|| 2006-02-21 16:09|| Front Page Top

#26 Well said, SPo'D, OP, Ptah.

I gotta add my 2¢ to the thread...

Accepting reality is a bona-fide bitch when it trashes a favored world-view, demands abandoning some personal tenet of faith, or drags you kicking and screaming in protest across a line you vowed never to cross.

Though it be necessary, it be hard doins.

Ah feel your pain. Honestly, I do. It took me a long goddamned time to finally quit protesting - and accept what that quiet little voice kept repeating:

"Stop. STFU for a moment. Look at the evidence right in front of you. Now slowly lift your gaze to the horizon to see where it leads. Yeah. It sucks. For a Free Man the real bitch comes next... You will have no choice."

Now get over it and identify courses of action, clarify your thoughts, decide where you can contribute, get past your arrogance and hurt - that's trivial self-imposed ego pain - reality doesn't give a shit what you want to be so - it just is what it is. All this faux-moral window-dressing is wanking off. Yes, it is. Reality's not changing to suit anyone and is not going away.

Consider this little Mod tempest in a teapot, today. Now consider being hacked to death with a machete.

One be wanking.

Posted by .com 2006-02-21 16:28|| 2006-02-21 16:28|| Front Page Top

#27 Ptah, you, I think, know better.

"The key issue with having a Muslim in power is, unlike a Christian, his religion sees no partitions between the secular and the sacred, "

Judaism doesnt partition between the secular and the sacred in the way Christianity does.

"and so he will not feel a sense of honor to adhere to restrictions that he believes would hamper his ability to advance Islam. "

I dont see why sacralizing the world should cause one to lack a sense of honor. I will note in passing that Christians have used all kinds of means to advance christianity. Which doesnt mean Islam doesnt have some serious problems, but lets be clearer about what they are.

"Establishing Dhimminitude is a REQUIREMENT of a Muslim leader."

yet most muslim leaders in the last 50 years, of whom there have been dozens, have NOT established Dhimmitude. Evidently theyre not "true muslim" leaders. Well, to Al Qaeeda, they are kaffirs. I dont see why we have to accept the AQ definition of whats a muslim leader.

"While urging men to be good and honorable, Christianity gives no specific instructions to government leaders on how to run the Government: "
There are in fact reams of material from meideval clerics on how to be a good christian ruler.

"Jimmy Carter himself admitted that instructions on how to be President were non-existent in the New Testament."
Well. Carter was an evangelical Protestant, so its not surprising he would ignore anything outside the NT as being the statement of "christianity"

" Judiasm, in the Torah, does give instructions on how judges and kings are to behave, but the mandate is that the law be applied equally, rich and poor, native or stranger "...because you were strangers in the Land of Egypt" was God's reason for requiring equal treatment of all. This command to treat others with consideration who are in a situation you USED to be in is unique in the ancient world, and totally absent from the Koran."

IIUC the Koran does call for equal treatment of rich and poor. And for all muslims, regardless of origin. Unlike Judaism, Islam is a proselytizing religion, and is not going to take the same attitude to nonbelievers.

" This lack of continuity in asserting the equality of mankind in the Koran is one reason (among others) why I reject its assertion that it is the culmination of Christianity and Judiasm."

well I reject Islams claim to be the culmination of Judaism. I ALSO reject Christianitys claim to be the culmination of Judaism. However in determining my political attitude toward Christianity, I accept that Christianity is historically diverse, and has changed over time. I must acknowledge the same facts about Islam - even as I also realize that Islam as a civilization is profoundly troubled, and needs reform. As a "liberal" (of the kind that includes classical and modern liberals) I judge people as individuals, and avoid generalizations about groups.

The policy of the mods here is wise. If you want to make posts of a certain kind, there are plenty of places on the net to do so.

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-21 16:54|| 2006-02-21 16:54|| Front Page Top

#28 "The Philosophy of Islam is incompatable with the 21st century and the "Western way of life". "

Islam has had many and conflicting philosophies over the years.

"It is not a philosophy compatable our western political systems apperently."

A minority of muslims are supporting free speech in principle on this. A far larger number are doing nothing about the cartoons. The number who are actively protesting is probably a minority of the muslim world, even without distinguishing violent from peaceful protest.

" Besides responding with violence to violence what are we as "the west" going to do?"

We should fight violence with violence. I dont see what that has to do with approving of antimuslim riots.

" Islam is static in it's philosophy. We can't change that and it's practitioners will not as they are not allowed to by it's precepts. "

But its philosophy has changed over the centuries. Not all muslims interpret its precepts the same way.

""Killing them all" or killing many of them is a distinct possibility we are faced with."

No, its not.

" They are pushing us to it."

How exactly? How does a few embassy burnings and a boycott make Denmark change its policy - they havent, theyve stood firm, and have done so without killing anyone.

Some muslim loonies have launched a pogrom in Nigeria? Horrible, I agree. But its Africa, for crying out loud. 3 million people died in the Congo civil war. Hundreds of thousands were exterminated in Rwanda. Nigeria is poorly governed, and Kano state has a particular concentration of loonies. The Nigerian state should restore order, and if they fail of course folks have a right to defend themselves - they shouldnt pogrom back, but if they do it will still be just a minor african thingie.

" We are not looking to do it as we are hoping "demoracy" will moderate the Philosophy. I am quickly losing confidence that we can overcome the aggresive tribalism and self imposed ghettos and aggressive communities that flourish under the philosophy of Islam."

That may be so - but why should we respond with tribalism of our own?

" So folks what are our options other than violence?"

Not all violence is equal. Pogroms against civilians are not what we do.

"I am not talking "racisim" as this philosophy is not bound by race. When faced with convert or die what is the "west" to do?"

Well first we might think if a backward civilization, divided against itself, can really make us "die"? In fact they cant. Hell they cant force a small but brave nation to apologise for some cartoons. Keep this in perspective folks.

Though the 'islamic extremist" are a small minority they are huge in number and can all on the financial and material resources of the entire philosophy. Remember the only about 10% thje population made the US revolutionary war happen.
So again what are we as a civilization going to do

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-21 17:06|| 2006-02-21 17:06|| Front Page Top

#29 "Islam is an opressive, destructive religion because of its basic principle that everything FROZE IN PLACE with the teachings of Mohammed."

do you know what Itjihad is? Fikh?

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-21 17:07|| 2006-02-21 17:07|| Front Page Top

#30 As with everything else, it's an economic problem: if the price of killing them becomes lower than the price of letting them live, they will die.

It seems that in places such as Nigeria they are driving the "let them live" price waaay up.

Posted by BH 2006-02-21 17:13|| 2006-02-21 17:13|| Front Page Top

#31 This should be interesting

The Christians are peoples who worship eternal life...The Islamofascists are peoples who honor death.

I-B-4-Life

Posted by Captain America 2006-02-21 17:33|| 2006-02-21 17:33|| Front Page Top

#32 actually the muslims believe in an eternal after life too.

You want a religion that truely honors THIS life, well the Synagogue door is open :)

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-02-21 17:40|| 2006-02-21 17:40|| Front Page Top

#33 Proselitysing at RandBurg?

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-02-21 17:42|| 2006-02-21 17:42|| Front Page Top

#34 I would not call spending enternally banging virgins, guzzling wine, and 'pigging out' on fruits much of a 'life' myself. To me it would quickly sour into an enternal hell.....

I happen to think that God gave us inteligence, emotions, spiritallity, creativity, and a soul for a purpose other then stuffing ourselves with wine, women, and food.....

But that's my opinion...

Posted by CrazyFool 2006-02-21 18:31|| 2006-02-21 18:31|| Front Page Top

#35 Response has begun:

Muslims target Christians in Nigeria; Christians respond -- and AP reports on "anti-Muslim riot"

Posted by 3dc 2006-02-21 18:38|| 2006-02-21 18:38|| Front Page Top

#36 Rome, 20 Feb. (AKI) - A leading Italian bishop has slammed as "unacceptable" the silence of states and international organisations over the fate of Christian minorities in Muslim states in an interview published on Monday. Auxiliary bishop Rino Fisichella of Rome told Italy's best-selling daily Corriere della Sera that, "not only is the destiny of Christian minorities living in the Muslim world at stake, but everyone's freedom, the way they can exercise such freedom and the civility of international relations." Fisichella, who is also the dean of the Lateran Pontifical University, added that it was the duty of state governments and international organisation "to implement the principle of reciprocity."...

Commenting the demonstrations, Fisichella said that, "these episodes stress how difficult it is for Muslim socities to accept the principle of religious freedom which is for us a acquired right."

"It's hard to understand why these societies fear freedom and are afraid of Christians who preach fraternity and forgiveness," added the bishop.

In a reference to the murder on 5 February of an Italian priest, Andrea Santoro, in Turkey, allegedly killed by a Muslim radical, Fisichella also noted that, "it is impossible to put on the same level a cartoon and the murder of a priest."

Posted by 3dc 2006-02-21 18:41|| 2006-02-21 18:41|| Front Page Top

#37 Good catch, 3dc. Perhaps the cartoon riots really will have been the turning point. AKI is the Turkish press association?

Posted by trailing wife 2006-02-21 18:54|| 2006-02-21 18:54|| Front Page Top

#38 it's not the turning point until the muslims say this.

Posted by Hupomoger Clans9827 2006-02-21 19:51|| 2006-02-21 19:51|| Front Page Top

#39 Or until it turns out that this caused the West to wake up .....

Posted by lotp 2006-02-21 20:19|| 2006-02-21 20:19|| Front Page Top

#40 to wake up and...?

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-02-21 20:21|| 2006-02-21 20:21|| Front Page Top

#41 For the record, I'd like to express my support for the mods. I read the comments that got redacted in the Sinktrap and while some were fairly mild, it's a pattern of behavior thing.

Repeated 'kill them all' type comments will make us the wrong kinds of friends and alienate those we need to persuade.

Otherwise, what .com said. Those who got sink trapped should move on. Tommorow's another day and what happened yesterday is old history.

Posted by phil_b">phil_b 2006-02-21 20:37|| http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]">[http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/] 2006-02-21 20:37|| Front Page Top

#42 Quote One: "May we at this stage remind our Muslim brothers that they do not have the monopoly of violence in this nation"

Plus

Quote Two: "Nigeria's 140 million people are split about equally between Muslims in the north and Christians in the south, although sizeable religious minorities live in most cities."

Equals civil war or partition. It doesnt matter what we say about, either. Its just whats going to happen.

Posted by Secret Master 2006-02-21 20:54|| 2006-02-21 20:54|| Front Page Top

#43 Wasn't Sudan simularly divided?

Posted by CrazyFool 2006-02-21 21:03|| 2006-02-21 21:03|| Front Page Top

#44 As a Christian, and seeing one side as the perpetual aggressor, I'd like to see arming of the south. I would help them defend themselves - start here. Just as with the Cold War, we fought proxy wars on the fringes, we can help turn back the war of Islamic conquer where ever possible. It can be a religion of peace, when its' extremists are dead. Bypass the fodder and take down the pretend Caliphate, the hate-spewing Imams and Mullahs.

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-02-21 21:03|| 2006-02-21 21:03|| Front Page Top

#45 Liberalhawk I pretty much reject evey bit of argument you make. I will not get into a verbal wankathon. You seem to them enjoy as most "liberals" do.

My comments stand by them self with out need of interpretation. One may agree or not agree.

Posted by Sock Puppet O' Doom 2006-02-21 21:03|| 2006-02-21 21:03|| Front Page Top

#46 it's an economic problem: if the price of killing them becomes lower than the price of letting them live, they will die

BH, this is a very eloquent synopsis of my own recent post regarding "A Tipping Point - The Muslim Holocaust." Islam is steadily increasing the cost burden on all host societies to the point where it is becoming intolerable. Far too many Muslims retain a sufficiently exaggerated sense of entitlement to ameliorate this cost burden through attempts at coexistence.

At some point the scales will tip. Why wait for them to tip? Especially when it will result in a Muslim holocaust. Better to read Islam the riot act, in no uncertain terms, than to let things progress even a few degrees further.

The death fatwas and demands for restrictions of free speech vis the cartoons are all the evidence we need with respect to what awaits us in a world dominated by Islam. We must now ensure that the world is not dominated by Islam.

Muslims need to begin calculating the eventual costs of continuning their attempt to gain control of this world. Western leaders owe it to their electorates to assure Islam in no uncertain terms that nuclear holocaust awaits their pursuit of imposing universal sharia law.

Posted by Zenster 2006-02-21 21:07|| 2006-02-21 21:07|| Front Page Top

#47 Muslims need to begin calculating the eventual costs of continuning their attempt to gain control of this world
That's it, Muzzies will go to their local bar and say what do you guys think, have we pissed off the Americans enough yet ? Should we tone down our jihad ? Are you kidding ?
One thing is for sure, and that is that muzzies will not quit unless and until we slap them down. And then, they will lay low and regroup to rise again when we sleep.
There's no logic in Islam, only some smart lunatics.

Posted by wxjames 2006-02-21 23:12|| 2006-02-21 23:12|| Front Page Top

#48 the missing Imam at Friday prayers would send a message, no?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-02-21 23:30|| 2006-02-21 23:30|| Front Page Top

#49 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by wxjames 2006-02-21 09:12|| 2006-02-21 09:12|| Front Page Top

#50 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2006-02-21 09:16|| 2006-02-21 09:16|| Front Page Top

22:57 Phating Churong2430
16:08 Besoeker
16:01 Besoeker
15:59 Besoeker
10:35 bk
10:34 bk
10:31 bk
10:28 bk
13:55 ARMYGUY
11:07 Besoeker
09:05 Besoeker
09:08 wxjames
09:16 Bomb-a-rama
09:12 wxjames
23:53 SOP35/Rat
23:39 trailing wife
23:35 xbalanke
23:30 Frank G
23:30 trailing wife
23:25 mmurray821
23:25 Glaise Throting8568
23:24 mmurray821
23:19 Duh!
23:18 Frank G