The American Red Cross needs help for their relief efforts in Haiti. This is a good thing to do. Hit the main page link and go to donations. Every little bit helps.
All Haiti-related news should now go to Caribbean-Latin America, not Signs and Portents, and filed under non-WoT. The earthquake is over, now is the time for rescue and rebuilding.
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/15/2010 00:00 ||
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#1
Thank you for posting the Red Cross link. Also check your local paper and online for other reputable aid agencies. Our family knows that the Southern Baptist International Mission Board is one of the most efficient and well-run organizations for delivering aid in emergencies like this, and so we give through them even though we do not attend an SBC church.
Somebody on Thursday commented to the effect that the years of misrule in Haiti were just cause to abandon the place. I hope that person can look in the mirror and shudder at what he sees there. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you; and thank God that, unlike Haitians, you have a fire department and cops and EMS in your neighborhood should you need them.
#2
Maybe worth mentioning that the American Red Cross (at the link) is NOT the same thing as the feckless International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).
#3
#2: Maybe worth mentioning that the American Red Cross (at the link) is NOT the same thing as the feckless International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). Posted by: SteveS
Nor is it the same the Red Crescent which former POTUS Clinton mentioned on teevee this week as a possible contribution venue...along with of course, his Clinton Foundation.
Something from the "lighter" side of the news...
VAXJO, Sweden, Jan. 14 (UPI) -- Members of a Swedish Weight Watchers clinic said a floor collapsed from under a group of about 20 dieters participating in a weighing event.
The participants said they were gathered at the Vaxjo clinic Wednesday night to measure the amount of weight they had lost with the help of the program when they heard a loud noise shortly followed by the collapse of the floor, Swedish news agency Tidningarnas Telegrambyra reported Thursday.
The participants, who were not injured, said they finished weighing one another in a nearby hallway.
Weight Watchers said the cause of the collapse is being investigated.
Posted by: Mike ||
01/15/2010 16:06 ||
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#1
Yokay, I'll say it, YOU JUST CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP.
Egypt coach Hassan Shehata wants only players who observe Islam, and says team selection is based equally on religious piety and skill. Shehata's comments, published Thursday in Egyptian newspapers, show how sports and religion are increasingly mixing in the overwhelmingly Muslim nation of 80 million. There are no Christians on the squad defending its African Cup of Nations title in Angola.
For years, Egyptian athletes have demonstrated their piety in front of fans and the media - kneeling down to offer a prayer of thanks after scoring or winning, or praying before games to implore God to come to their team's aid. Shehata's comments take religion in sports to a whole new level. He was quoted by Cairo newspapers as saying skill alone won't guarantee anyone a place on the national team.
He said "pious behaviour" was the main reason for selection. "Without it, we will never select any player regardless of his potential," he said. "I always strive to make sure that those who wear the Egypt jersey are on good terms with God."
One newspaper, the independent al-Shorouk, quoted Shehata as saying that striker Ahmed "Mido," on loan from England's Middlesborough to Cairo's Zamalek, was cut four days after his initial selection because he did not fit the manager's prerequisite for piety. The move last month came as a surprise because Egypt already was missing injured striker Amr Zaki, formerly with England's Wigan, and attacking midfielder Mohammed Abu Trekka. Mido, who enjoys a reputation for hard partying, said he was insulted by his exclusion.
Shehata, a former Egypt international best remembered for his midfield creativity, has not made a secret of the role religion plays in what he does. He is often seen by millions of fans and TV viewers praying during games, and asks supporters to pray for the national side. In Thursday's comments, Shehata boasted of how he convinced Egypt striker Mohammed Zidan, who plays for the German club Dortmund, to begin praying. "I did not like how he used to be aloof and not mix with the rest," Shehata said. "I convinced him of the need to pray and how important it is. He has been praying since."
The sun set just after 5:30 pm in Port-au-Prince on January 13, 2010. There was no moon in the partly cloudy sky, just the stars looking down on the horror that was Haiti. Help was coming, and would arrive about 8 pm that evening.
The C-130 Combat Talons of the United States Air Force Special Operations Command quietly glided out of the sky to settle onto the one runway of the Toussaint L'Ouverture International Airport. The airport was crowded with planes that had made the dangerous, uncontrolled flight into the earthquake ravaged nation in the 24 hours since the quake.
Security personnel of the 23rd Special Tactics Squadron were first off the planes. The airport was swarming with both Haitians and foreign nationals and the safety of everyone was paramount. Within a half hour, the well-trained airmen had secured the facility and the remaining Special Operators disembarked. With radios already active, combat controllers began the task of air traffic control for the airport and the region.
Along with the security contingent and combat controllers, the 23rd Special Tactics Squadron brought pararescue personnel, trained as paramedics and also trained in urban search and rescue.
The airport had planes parked wherever the pilots could find space. Some needed refueling, others needed to be moved, and others needed to be unloaded. Through the night, the airmen worked to sort out the mess. Electricity was on at the airport and the runway lights functioned.
As dawn broke, the pararescue teams and their equipment moved into the city of Port-au-Prince. Acting on a priority list from the American Embassy, they began the difficult task of locating trapped survivors and extricating them from the rubble. By mid afternoon, seven rescues had been accomplished.
The situation at the airport began to be sorted out. Airmen discovered that there were only two tow bars and two fuel trucks, which made support services a bottleneck. Unloading aircraft was another. At one point during the day 44 airplanes were on the ground.
With little prospects for additional fuel reaching the airport, air traffic controllers were telling inbound aircraft to have enough fuel for departure as well. One large aircraft on the field required six hours to be refueled via the two fuel trucks.
With just one runway and the service bottlenecks, many aircraft circled the airport for hours waiting for permission to land. The FAA assisted in attempting to relieve the congestion by limiting or denying permissions for flights to Haiti during the day on January 14.
Additional resources from the Air Force arrived in Haiti late in the day on January 14. These planes brought more equipment and additional personnel from Mobility Command to enhance air traffic control and airport operations.
#1
It's too bad that this won't lead the evening news.
The Coast Guard and Air Force are working very hard to get the seaport (which is ruined) and airport opened. Next comes the Navy and Marines from the MEU and the Carl Vinson. Next week the Comfort will arrive. In the meantime the AF and Air National Guard will be whipping the airport into shape and getting supplies pushed out into Port-au-Prince.
I'm very proud of our people, and I just wish the media would tell and show their story.
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/15/2010 16:50 Comments ||
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#2
DAWN.PK > [Food]WATER IS THE CURRENCY IN HAITI, NOT MONEY, says foreign aid worker.
HIATIAN RED CROSS > 45,000-50,000 dead, + up to 3.0MILYUHN homeless + in need of aid, espec in PORT-AU-PRINCE.
Former President Clinton commented this morning their frustration is understandable, under the circumstances. FP Clinton is holding the Haitians to the soft bigotry of low expectations. Bad manners and open ingratitude are by long tradition unacceptable in the recipients of charity. At least if they wish to continue receiving charity.
#1
Golly, I'd be faster writing out a check, but I feel compassion fatigue setting in...
Posted by: regular joe ||
01/15/2010 13:15 Comments ||
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#2
I think this is jumping to conclusions. Piling up dead bodies in the only place accessible, roads, would be a reasonable thing to do to allow trucks to come by later to pick them up. Earlier reports leaking out of Haiti DID mention there were already trucks collecting bodies. Calling this a 'protest' is a stretch. Remember all the BS reports coming out of Katrina that had no foundation.
I don't. This is what the Haitians do, what they have always done. Whenever a tragedy befalls them, the stand around and wail about aid not reaching them fast enough, or the aid isn't sufficient...etc, etc, and on and on...you get the picture.
This is exactly why I said yesterday to evacuate, blockade and let nature run its course.
#4
Absolutely not. That would be the worst thing we could do.
First: it would tar the good name of the United States for a long, long time. There are a lot of people around the world who understand that when disaster strikes, the US is there to help. It's one of the very best things about Americans. Turning our backs to the Haitians would be a terrible thing to do, both morally and geo-strategically.
Second: it would result in a half-million Haitian boat people. At least. If you were a Haitian man and there was no food, water, shelter or security for your family, what would YOU do?
Third: it creates regional instability. The Dominican Republic could well collapse due to the strain from the problems on their border. Other Caribbean countries would shift away from us and towards the leftist leaders such as Chavez. We don't want that.
Haiti is a shit-hole. It's a terrible, terrible shit-hole today compared to last week. Our obligation and best course is to help substantially.
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/15/2010 15:24 Comments ||
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#5
Absolutely not. That would be the worst thing we could do.
Bleed heart...bleed.
First: it would tar the good name of the United States for a long, long time. There are a lot of people around the world who understand that when disaster strikes, the US is there to help. It's one of the very best things about Americans. Turning our backs to the Haitians would be a terrible thing to do, both morally and geo-strategically.
Yep. And I see that as a BIG problem. We should not be the worlds policeman or nanny picking up every pisspot country that stumbles. It leads to dependency...excuse me, it has made them dependent on us and killed their ability to be self sufficient. And...AND, they forget so quickly and despise us for revealing their short comings. Screw them, let the world stand on its own or fail on its own.
Second: it would result in a half-million Haitian boat people. At least. If you were a Haitian man and there was no food, water, shelter or security for your family, what would YOU do?
Boat people? What part of full Air, Sea & Land Blockade do you not comprehend? If I was a Haitian I'd be screwed, I wouldn't like it. However, if I hadn't been conditioned to expect the U.S. and others to come to my rescue, I might have the fortitude to help myself and my people instead of sitting around and whining about aid not coming fast enough.
Third: it creates regional instability. The Dominican Republic could well collapse due to the strain from the problems on their border. Other Caribbean countries would shift away from us and towards the leftist leaders such as Chavez. We don't want that.
As for the DR, I'd see that their border with Haiti was sealed. See blockade. If we showed some backbone and resolve, we wouldn't have the Chavez's to deal with. In fact, if we had handled that properly he'd never have gotten to where he is. Being the worlds sole Super Power means you got to use your muscle every now and then.
Haiti is a shit-hole. It's a terrible, terrible shit-hole today compared to last week. Our obligation and best course is to help substantially.
We are NOT obligated to help Haiti or anyone else. Let the Faith Based, and volunteer organizations do what they want. Hell, I don't care if YOU empty your bank account and send it off to whatever third world shit hole stubs its toe. I am tired of American Tax Dollars going to these terminally failed places. You are a bleeding heart liberal, and your kind has driven this country off a cliff. You, are part of the problem.
#6
Dr. Steve is a liberal? Solomon - you don't know what you're talking about. The boat people issue is real and looming. Or should we shoot em and force em back? We are a compassionate nation, and should be, especially in our own sphere of power. That doesn't mean we let every illegal Mexican in or boatload of destitute illiterate Haitians to land and get Obamacare. Taking care of this OVER THERE is the smart, and right thing to do
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/15/2010 17:58 Comments ||
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#7
Never insult an individual with a wooden stake in his hand.
#9
Solomon, when you look in the mirror do you actually see a reflection? Or does the mirror crack?
People we know have been working in Haiti, patiently teaching agricultural techniques, reforestation, caring for orphans, teaching basic literacy, and working against the mental poison that is Voodoo. It's a slow process, but it works. It is the only antidote to the toxic climate of Haiti.
#11
I didn't pick the nym. I am not surprised that my views vis-a-vis Haiti and all the other 3rd world cesspits, and the views of most 'burgers, are diametrically opposed.
One day, it will be necessary for us to really help...us. There won't be enough if anything there. Mom says we're helping them, we really are, it takes a long time...whaaaa! Like Africa?
How many decades? How many Billions? Help those that can and will help themselves. Let those that have demonstrated they are failures...repeatedly, perish. I said yesterday that it was cold, I don't flinch from that. I know it. But there are times when it is more humane to walk away, and that takes a certain coldness.
I have never been to Haiti or worked with Haitians, but I have been to places just as bad with people just as dysfunctional and after nearly 30 years of my involvement, and countless before that, they are as hopeless today as they have ever been.
#12
Spogum-
What happens when the cub scouts come to your door requesting canned goods for the needy? Just curious. I myself had a hard time parting with just 12 cans of canned food from my pantry for their charity this year. But then I am a jerk, and like you I'd be the first to admit it. I guess Im not alone, which is somewhat comforting.
#15
our friend Solomon confuses "tough love" with "intervention". Haitians didn't choose a quake, but if we have to help rebuild them we don't have to enable their addiction to int'l aid. They should be forced to address their ills. Too often the excuse is: "well, if we could start from scratch...". Well, now, Haiti is at scratch, and the bitching and whining thieving oligarchs should be shut up. By the people. Time to start over. It can happen. That's what scratch means
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/15/2010 21:43 Comments ||
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#16
In the final analysis if the USA tanks who is going to help us?
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/15/2010 22:04 Comments ||
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Spogum-
What happens when the cub scouts come to your door requesting canned goods for the needy? Just curious. I myself had a hard time parting with just 12 cans of canned food from my pantry for their charity this year. But then I am a jerk, and like you I'd be the first to admit it. I guess Im not alone, which is somewhat comforting.
They don't have to come to my door. I'm involved with the Scouts, on several levels. A certain percentage of my income is set aside for certain charities that help the needy HERE, at HOME. We buy pallets of canned goods at the Two Major Warehouse Chains.
I am not involved with deciding who gets aid. My choice. If you see yourself as a jerk, that is an issue for you to deal with. I see myself as a realist that understands that there are those that cannot be saved, because they will not lift a finger to save themselves and expect others to rush to their aid.
In the final analysis if the USA tanks who is going to help us?
#19
@#15 Frank G: Frank, I've read your posts over the years, some I did not agree with...but most I did.
You have a good heart and, I feel have been well intentioned. By Gods grace, if the 'burg is around in 5 years, I hope we can revisit this issue. I suspect, based on my experience with culture and failed States like Haiti. That I will be able to say: "Neener, Neener, Neener!" 8-)
Of course by then we will have pissed untold billions of dollars down yet another rat hole. While we ourselves will most likely be tits up, if it even takes five years to get there.
#21
fair enough, especially with your overly generous take on my "good heart" :-)
we shall see in five years.
the problem is.."Jean Haitian" in the street will have barely days, not even weeks. I pay taxes, and I live in a global economy and world. I think we are an exceptional country, an exceptional people, and we have duties beyond ourselves. Being Americans means more than our current apologist-in-chief means. It's like living in small town (my own 'burg has like 56,000 in a county of millions) when a natural disaster hits. Triage first. Policy second.
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/15/2010 22:54 Comments ||
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#22
Frank G
Well spoke and while I agree and like the sentiment of Americans being compassionate, and oh we are, I also think a period of rest from helping every Tom Dick and Harry to our detriment is arrived. How long should we help Haiti? Weeks, Months, Years, Decades? Does anyone know? How about our double digit unemployment and soaring debt? How much is too much? How much will break our bank?
Point taken. In fact, that is pretty much what I am saying. I have been on scene when triage has been done in the field, and what I am saying is that where Haiti is concerned, we say, this one dies as they are beyond our help and any further effort denies resources to those that might be saved...and I am thinking mainly of us.
#25
I have no answer to that long term cost. I can assure you, it's a lot less than the ineffective Porkulous 1.0, even on a "as spent" basis. I'm not in favor of spending our nation's treasure (blood or gold) where it's ineffective or worse. Incidents like this are necessary to respond to, humanitarian-reasons only. Our opportunity is to shake the damn country by the boots and restart it in a better fashion. When I heard thePresident say "his house was ruined" I would've kicked the shit out of him and made him salvage bricks from "the people's house" with his own hands.
Posted by: Frank G ||
01/15/2010 23:30 Comments ||
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PORT-AU-PRINCE, Jan 14 (Reuters) - Desperate Haitians turned rubble-strewn streets and parks into makeshift hospitals and refugee camps on Thursday in the absence of any noticeable response from authorities in Haiti after Tuesday's earthquake. With the 7.0 magnitude earthquake collapsing the presidential palace, a string of ministries and the headquarters of the U.N. peacekeeping mission in the country, Haiti faces a dangerous vacuum in security and government.
Many in the capital Port-au-Prince picked away at shattered buildings with bare hands, sticks and hammers hoping to find loved-ones alive. Thousands of homeless people began to set up their own camps anywhere they could, the biggest right opposite the collapsed presidential palace.
A major international aid effort has not yet kicked in, although plenty of small groups, many from the United States, have scrambled quickly, moving personnel into Haiti by plane and overland from neighboring Dominican Republic.
"The problem is that unlike traditional disaster situations we have few local partners to work with, because most of them have had their buildings destroyed and are looking for their own dead and missing," said Margaret Aguirre, a senior official with International Medical Corps.
Haitians are doing their best to survive chaotic conditions in the absence of any clear leadership, said Latin America expert Dan Erikson of the Washington-based Inter-American Dialogue think tank. "The sad truth is that no one is in charge of Haiti today. This vacuum, coupled with the robust response from the Obama administration, has inevitably created a situation where the U.S. will be the de facto decision-maker in Haiti."
Even President Rene Preval lost his home. "My palace collapsed. ... I can't live in the palace, I can't live in my own house," he told CNN on Wednesday.
The 9,000-strong U.N. peacekeeping force, which might have been able to step into the void, has been left counting its own dead after its headquarters were destroyed in the quake. The United Nations said 36 of its personnel in Haiti had been killed and many more were still missing.
Peacekeepers occasionally patrolled the city in buses and trucks and have mobilized some heavy earth-moving equipment but the blue-helmet soldiers have largely stayed off the streets.
Underlying the growing sense of chaos and abandonment around the half-destroyed coastal capital Port-au-Prince, some looting began -- a phenomenon Haitians have seen many times before in past political crises.
Pickup trucks stacked high with bodies could be seen making their way through traffic-clogged streets on Thursday morning, on their way to drop off the dead at the morgue attached to Hospital General, the city's main health facility. But Guy LaRoche, the hospital's director, said it was already filled to overflowing with more than 1,500 rapidly decomposing bodies. Many had been left lying out in the sun. LaRoche said he had had no contact with any government officials to see what to do with them.
"I'm awaiting the decision of the government. What else can I do?" he said. "The health threat, from disease, could be another catastrophe. We need nurses, medical teams, more of everything."
Around the city, many Haitians put rags and masks over their faces as the stench from rotting bodies began to rise. Crushed cars and vans stuck out of collapsed buildings, while children's toys, shoes and papers were scattered on streets. In poor areas, there was little sign of any coordinated rescue activities.
"I think 50 percent of the city is destroyed," said Vladimir Rousseau, a 32-year-old diesel engineer, in the hard-hit Carrefour district.
Reuters witnesses saw some city blocks completely leveled, though in other areas the damage was more patchy.
In the upscale, hilltop Petionville sector, a Chilean contingent of U.N. peacekeepers -- many of whom arrived only last week and looked stunned at events -- were helping excavate rubble at the landmark Hotel Montana, which collapsed. They said they had pulled out 14 people alive already, foreign customers and local workers alike, and thought there were dozens more underneath the stones.
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/15/2010 00:00 ||
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#1
Out of respect for the current situation, I will not state the obvious...
#2
There was no one running Haiti BEFORE the earthquake, and there is no reason to think a large earthquake would improve matters. Haiti is a failed state. One solution would be to make it a colony again, but no one wants to be an evil colonial power any more.
WASHINGTON (AP) - All civilian flights from the United States to Haiti were halted Thursday at the request of the Haitian government because there is no room at the earthquake damaged Port-au-Prince airport for more planes and no fuel to spare for departing aircraft.
The Federal Aviation Administration ordered the "ground stop" on flights Thursday morning after the Haitian government said it would not accept more flights into Haitian airspace, said a U.S. official who wasn't authorized to speak publicly and asked not to be named.
At the time, there were 11 flights circling the heavily damaged airport, but no more ramp room to store planes once they had landed, the official said. There was also very limited jet fuel available for planes leaving Haiti, the official said.
The air traffic control tower at Toussaint L'Ouverture International Airport was destroyed in Tuesday's earthquake.
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/15/2010 00:00 ||
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#2
Please post - have a flight headed down there in about 36 hours and seems like TALC getting a handle on stuff - heard about our friends the Chinese landing without prior arrangement - is that what you're referring to?
#4
Got it! Have two relief flights lined up for next 72 hours; should be an interesting exercise. Flow control issues due ramp congestion dictating the traffic for now. Will contribute observations after we transit if there's anything not otherwise available.
#6
CNN/HLN repor that the CVN USS "CARL VINSON" is now offshore from Haiti wid a variety of heavy-lift Helos [IIRC film footage depicts CH-47's + UH-60's].
Galrahn at Information Dissemination provides a first-class review of the Coast Guard and Navy response to date in Haiti, with a chilling reminder at the end as to why it's important that we do everything we can to help and help now. Must-read.
Posted by: Steve White ||
01/15/2010 00:00 ||
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#1
My Father was Army Corps of Engineers, WHERE ARE THEY?
Posted by: Redneck Jim ||
01/15/2010 0:22 Comments ||
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#2
NY TimesThe United States has struck an agreement with the Cuban government to send medical evacuation flights with victims from the Haiti earthquake through restricted Cuban airspace, an official said, reducing the flight time to Miami by 90 minutes.
#3
My Father was Army Corps of Engineers, WHERE ARE THEY?
Some of them are working very long, urgent hours trying to figure out how to protect surge troops being sent for extended periods to parts of Afghanistan that lack even the basics of infrastructure.
#2
But, but, everyone all good liberals know only eurines see the US as it really needs to be seen...
Posted by: M. Murcek ||
01/15/2010 10:20 Comments ||
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#3
I think it's sweet -- they actually care. How many British politicians could any non-British Rantburgers name, besides MP George Galloway and PM Brown? I just named the two I can think of, and I flatter myself that I pay more attention to the world than most.
Establishing security is the sine qua non of stability operations, since it is a prerequisite for reconstruction and development. Security requires a mix of military and police forces to deal with a range of threats from insurgents to criminal organizations. This research examines the creation of a high-end police force, which the authors call a Stability Police Force (SPF). The study considers what size force is necessary, how responsive it needs to be, where in the government it might be located, what capabilities it should have, how it could be staffed, and its cost. This monograph also considers several options for locating this force within the U.S. government, including the U.S. Marshals Service, the U.S. Secret Service, the Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs (INL) in the Department of State, and the U.S. Army's Military Police. The authors conclude that an SPF containing 6,000 people -- created in the U.S. Marshals Service and staffed by a "hybrid option," in which SPF members are federal police officers seconded to federal, state, and local police agencies when not deployed -- would be the most effective of the options considered. The SPF would be able to deploy in 30 days. The cost for this option would be $637.3 million annually, in FY2007 dollars. 213 pages, but you get the drift....
#3
I read all 213 pages (part of what I do for a living). I'm not going to knee-jerk a comment. It's a study, not a plan-of-action. However, I am not comfortable with the concept as presented.
A few observations:
As repeatedly mentioned in the study, the Stability Police Force (SPF) is purported to be an OCONUS (Outside Continental US) unit. However, there were repeated mentions of SPF having similar duties as the Italian Carabinieri and the French Gendarmarie. Both those organizations also have in-nation police and security duties.
Perhaps the OCONUS nature of the SPF was taken as a given by both the authors and the study's recipent (U.S. Army). Perhaps that's why the constitutional-limitation concerns of establishing what would be a 'nation-building/nation-stability police force', were only mentioned a few times, and the potential civil liberties concerns not at all. However, the study alluded to those concerns by not explicitly advocating a permanent force, only a semi-permanent leadership cadre with force members pulled from a 'reserve'.
For those not inclined to read the entire report, Pages 121-124, regarding the US Marshals Service's Special Operations Group are what appears to be the authors' preference.
The idea of a para-military or quasi-military 'peacekeeping force' has been batted about for decades. There is, IMNSHO, a need for something along those lines. Just not necessarily this one - and in any case, not without some explicit and rigid restrictions established by law.
#4
I'd like to understand that need. Either we are at war with a country, in which case we should do whatever international law allows yo achieve our objectives, or we are not and we should stay out of foreign countries, starting with Nato. I don't like dumping tax dollars on foreigners whether its as aid or policing funds. We shouldn't become the world's policeman, or gendarmerie.
I'd explain it to you, but based on your comment (which puts lie to the above sentence) and my experience with a significant percentage of Rantburg's commenters, it'd be a "teaching a pig to whistle" moment.
Let me get the party started.
After WWII we converted several armored cavalry groups into Constabulary regiments. They were given internal security responsibility for the American sector of Germany.
A force like this would be very useful in a conventional or guerilla war. For example, during the invasion of Iraq, the biggest problem we had was attacks on our supply lines. A force like this could have made things easier.
Why not use MPs? there are usually always too few of them.
As for guerilla warfare, the big difference is the level of violence these men and women are trained to dish out.
For example, during the Clinton administration, 4 Recon Marines and 21 police got into a battle with some drug transporters in AZ. The 21 cops fired 19 bullets between them, and the 4 Marines fired 200 rounds.
Al
Posted by: Frozen Al ||
01/14/2010 11:42 Comments ||
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#9
Pappy, since you read the doc and understand this better than I... Would such a police force be less of a target for bad guys trying to bog down or hurt the US than the US Military? I don't think so myself, so if we need a specialized police force why not encourage the US Military to create such a force. That way we lesson the bureaucracy and they can call in serious backup if things go bad.
#11
For example, during the Clinton administration, 4 Recon Marines and 21 police got into a battle with some drug transporters in AZ. The 21 cops fired 19 bullets between them, and the 4 Marines fired 200 rounds.
#15
I'd explain it to you, but based on your comment (which puts lie to the above sentence) and my experience with a significant percentage of Rantburg's commenters, it'd be a "teaching a pig to whistle" moment.
It was a sincere request. But if that's all it takes to make your argument wither, it must be a weak one indeed.
#16
I don't have time to read this report right now ... Pappy, is the suggestion something along the lines that Thomas Barnett has been pushing for some time, ie. the 'system administrators' vs. the hard combat troops?
#18
Posse comitatus? Also where is the Constitutional basis for such an armed external federal agency outside of the Defense department?
Posse comitatus - officially - precludes the use of Army and Air Force troops by local, state and Federal officials in a local capacity for law enforcement. Essentially it prevents troops from being used in a posse. It doesn't prevent the President or COngress from calling them out, as was done in the 1930s (Hooverville and various mining strikes). 1958 in Little Rock, and 1992 in the Los Angeles riots.
Would such a police force be less of a target for bad guys trying to bog down or hurt the US than the US Military?
Depends. From what the report implied, military forces would still be there (think Kosovo). What the idea is that things normally relegated to police work - fighting organized crime, street-level crime prevention and response, and smuggling, for examples - would be left to a police-type force with some infantry aspects.
After WWII we converted several armored cavalry groups into Constabulary regiments. They were given internal security responsibility for the American sector of Germany
Which is a very viable option again; the study did mention either converting an MP unit or creating a force with in the Coast Guard (which already has law-enforcement duties). The problem would be shielding soldiers or Coast-Guardsmen from any kind of ICC-based legal actions.
It was a sincere request. But if that's all it takes to make your argument wither, it must be a weak one indeed.
NS, I didn't interpret it that way. By all means, please tell me how:
Either we are at war with a country, in which case we should do whatever international law allows yo achieve our objectives, or we are not and we should stay out of foreign countries, starting with Nato. I don't like dumping tax dollars on foreigners whether its as aid or policing funds. We shouldn't become the world's policeman, or gendarmerie.
could be considered a "sincere request" when you've obviously formed your opinion. Having been around teh Burg a few years, I can recognize when something is going to be an exercise in futility.
is the suggestion something along the lines that Thomas Barnett has been pushing for some time, ie. the 'system administrators' vs. the hard combat troops?
Yes, and no. Part of it would be administrators. Part of it would be police/law enforcement, albeit heavier armed and more tightly organized. The study didn't really advocate any particular form to the latter.
The idea being to reinforce what existing police forces there are in-country, stand in as a police force if there is a lack of a native one, train native police and adminsitrators to make up a deficit.
One thing to remember - this isn't really a new concept. Marines were seconded to the Haitian gendarmarie and in the bananna republics to serve as leaders, trainers, and administrators.
What is new here is the concept of a federal-based force, with law enforcement assets being stationed within local and state police forces until called upon. That generates a lot of concerns which were not addressed in the study.
#19
Pappy, I look at this as a separate, new /military specialty kind of like paratroopers or tank drivers. Is that a reasonable metaphor?
My real question though is "What law are they supposed to be inforcing?" Is this group to enforce "Int'l law", local law, US law or what?
One of the biggest cultural differences is embodied in a cultures views on law. I am more than a little skeptical about the quality of the "rule book" that our folks would be intended to enforce.
#20
Sorry, smells like a hybrid US State Department or flakey UN operation less the authority of the regional Combatant Commander (former CINCs) to me. I believe Joint Forces Command (USJFCOM) has the rose pinned on them to stand up emergency or stability operation task forces under organizations such as their Joint Enabling Capabilities Command, Joint Task Force Horn of Africa and others.
If it isn't broken, why are we rushing to fix it with a $637.3 million annual budget?
#21
Pappy, I look at this as a separate, new /military specialty kind of like paratroopers or tank drivers. Is that a reasonable metaphor?
The study mentioned a list of options, then appeared to advocate either a new military specialty who, among other options, may be seconded to state and local police to gain experience, police officers recruited and trained by an SPF, and then seconded to state and local police until called upon, or volunteer police officers formed into a reserve force and drawn upon.
My real question though is "What law are they supposed to be inforcing?" Is this group to enforce "Int'l law", local law, US law or what?
I'm not sure. Once would have to look at Kosovo. A'stan or Iraq for what gets enforced. Probably (WAG here)a combination of local, international and whatever laws are agreed upon by the senior commander (nee CinC) in charge. I think it might be local police enforcing their laws, with outside police forces assisting and targeting areas beyond the capabilities of local forces , as well as training and if needed, establishing local police forces.
Sorry, smells like a hybrid US State Department or flakey UN operation less the authority of the regional Combatant Commander (former CINCs) to me.
"The research described in this report was sponsored by the United States
Army under Contract No. W74V8H-06-C-0001" is what reads on page 4 of the report. Hardly a State Department plot.
I believe Joint Forces Command (USJFCOM) has the rose pinned on them to stand up emergency or stability operation task forces under organizations such as their Joint Enabling Capabilities Command, Joint Task Force Horn of Africa and others.
Yes, and as I recall, that often means bringing in contractors (you of all know that) and personnel from other agencies if required. Smells like the Army isn't all that keen on having its troops play Sheriff Andy (with all that that implies).
To repeat something I said in the O'Club: It isn't just security, patrolling and ops in bad logistical areas. It's also dealing with smugglers, organized crime, black markets, and general criminal activity that breeds when there isn't a civil law-enforcement structure. It's also recruiting, screening, and training street officers, detention personnel, and administrators, setting up or re-establishing police facilities, jails, support and maintenance, communications networks, logistics, and finance (especially pay).
Second, the constabulary units worked quite well and are to me a viable option. The problem now is there really isn't an Army or Marine unit available to do the duty. The system, if not broken, is certainly damaged. Unless Congress raises troop levels, or the scope of missions are reduced, or there's a fundamental change in mindset by the Pentagon, it isn't 'unthinkable' to look at other options.
And if you want a really fun problem to chew on - think 'collapse in Mexico".
The SCOTUS has ruled that US congressional actions are superior to State legislature actions. It has also ruled that the decisions of federal judges are superior to State judges. However, they have *never* ruled that the decisions of the POTUS is superior to that of State governors.
But this means that all the way back to the Whiskey Rebellion, Andrew Jackson's threat to hang any "nullifier" in South Carolina after they had voted to nullify one of his tariffs, the US Civil War, etc., etc., has never been resolved as to its legality.
This was most recently the issue between W. Bush and the governor of Louisiana, when Bush wanted to relieve New Orleans, but the governor dithered.
And perhaps this is the underlying issue. As with Obama's desire to create a "council of governors", there is deep suspicion that it is a power grab by the POTUS, who would justify intervention in a State by saying that a "council" of governors from other States thought it was a good idea, even if the governor of that State said "No!"
Unless the SCOTUS clearly and definitively prohibits a POTUS from sending the army, or whatever force, into an uncooperative State, the only thing holding him back right now is political pressure. Using a council of governors to try and alleviate that is just rude.
#24
1) ...criminal activity that breeds when there isn't a civil law-enforcement structure.
Pappy, it's not just a civil law-enforcement structure that's missing in most all of these cases, it is a civil law structure. This was the nub of my previous question. What law is enforced if there is no law defined?
2) 'moose asks good questions. I'd just like to add...the only thing holding him back right now is political pressure and a well armed citizenry.
#25
I was with the skeptics, bogged down on the OCONUS/ICONUS issue (or trying to learn to whistle and failing), until Pappy's comment made things clear for me:
And if you want a really fun problem to chew on - think 'collapse in Mexico".
Mexico is a failing state. Mexico's political and moral collapse, and the tsunami of illegals Mexico's corruption, incompetence and sheer cynicism are sending our way, are helping our southwestern states down the path of first fiscal failure and possibly future civil failure as well.
When California becomes Mexifornia, the distinction between inside and outside the continental US vanishes.
Take it away, Pappy. Tell us more. I'm stuck in California and want to know. Thanks in advance,
L
#26
#22 And if you want a really fun problem to chew on -think 'collapse in Mexico". Pappy
Besoeker: Can do easy.
No can do, Besoeker. Tweedledum wants a lock on cheap labor for its sweatshop owner business bloc. Tweedledee wants a lock on the latino vote.
And both parties' fanboys in the press and punditry, from the NYT editors all the way to Michael Barone, scream "racist!" at anyone who dares call BS on this corrupt bargain that achieves each party's aims-- even as it depletes CA's and other states' treasuries, destroys the public schools, ruins social services and fills the prisons to overflowing.
#27
And Mexico won't be the last one, either. The entire post-WWII nation state structure is eroding fast. Those who think we can simply build high walls and keep the chaos out might want to check into our economic dependency on commodities we don't have CONUS (and I mean don't have, not 'won't use'), the state of our sovereign debt and the lack of science and engineering skills in our workforce under 40 yrs of age or so.
Or for the short version, recall Canute and the sea.
#29
Better start breeding plow horses fast, then, and figuring out how you're going to defend those high walls without batteries and night sights for the military.
#30
lotp, if we don't drop our religious objections to making our own batteries and night vision sights then all the stability police force is doing is robbing Peter to pay Paul to stretch out the conquest of the US by another two weeks.
Agri products we have aplenty, even before you and I dig Victory Gardens in the front lawn -- we're still the breadbasket of the world, unless things have changed significantly since last I looked. It's the rare earth metals that China is strip-mining in Tibet that should be more a matter of concern.
Thought: could those be refined from coal mine tailings? Or coal ash?
#32
if we don't drop our religious objections to making our own batteries and night vision sights ... You didn't get the part about "don't have", then.
#33
Agri products we have aplenty most of which depend on a continuing supply of imported petro, from places like Mexico. There is no easy or quick way to change that dependency. Drilling everywhere, even if it should succeed (which is doubtful IMHO), would take years to make a difference.
#34
We have mines here for rare earths; they were closed in the 90's when it was easier to buy in bulk from China (which was dumping on the market) than to deal with more regulations.
#35
Having read the intro and pages Pappy referenced I am still confused by how this force would be used by this language:
Of the options considered, this research indicates that the U.S. Marshals Service (USMS) would be the most likely to successfully field an SPF, under the assumptions that an MP option would not be permitted to conduct policing missions in the United States outside of military installations except under extraordinary circumstances, and that doing so is essential to maintaining required skills. ... The MP Corps has the opposite problem: it has the capacity to take on the task, and arguably it has the skills due to its efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. However, its ability to maintain these skills during periods when it is not engaged in large-scale stability operations is constrained by the limits placed on its ability to perform civilian policing functions by the Posse Comitatus Act.
This seems to contemplate the SPF being used domestically when not occupied elsewhere. I don't like POTUS having such a force unless he's ready to declare martial law and nationalize the National Guard or send in active Army. It's very unclear why making it part of the MP would not work except for the domestic considerations. They would probably be useful tomorrow in Haiti if we had them.
#39
Think about last year's banking crisis; we did need some sort of macroeconomic intervention, and the usual suspects took advantage of that need to really screw us over. Same situation, and roughly the same people in charge. The Beheres.
#41
from a layman's point if view, it sounds like you're describing the FBI?
(Or what the FBI Is supposed to be, an overriding Police force with every other force under it)
Posted by: Redneck Jim ||
01/15/2010 20:30 Comments ||
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#42
Thanks, Pappy. I think we're converging. But what I read was, There is, IMNSHO, a need for something along those lines. And what I was saying was that I was having a hard time seeing the need for it domestically. And I suspect now you agree with that.
#43
Frankly, the title of the post is misleading. The study is for an OCONUS SPF. I see a need for an OCONUS SPF of some type.
My concern is with Rand's author's advocating emplacing SPF members in state and local police forces until the need arises. I can partly understand why they want to do so: so that the officers' learn and retain policing skills (which unlike the military, are really learned in an apprenticeship environment). But it also becomes a concern as to which master is being served.
From a layman's point if view, it sounds like you're describing the FBI?
Not really. The FBI has always held itself above 'street-policing', though the technical capabilities would be a valuable asset.
A MAN was arrested in Malaysia with $66 million in fake US banknotes after trying to tip a hotel maid with an obsolete $500 bill, officials revealed today. Leave her a five next time ...
A raid of the Lebanese man's hotel room in Kuala Lumpur turned up counterfeit notes in bundles of $1 million ($1.08 million), $100,000 ($108,000) and $500 ($542) notes last Sunday.
Hotel staff were alerted after the housekeeper discovered her generous tip was fake when a nearby bank refused to change it.
The man now faces up to 10 years in jail if convicted of possessing counterfeit currency.
Bills of $500 were last printed in 1945 and are now no longer in wide circulation, according to the US Treasury Department. The largest US note ever printed was a special edition $100,000 bill, in 1934.
This is not the first time the accused man has been in trouble with the law in Malaysia. In a separate case, a Malaysian court charged him last week with fraud over the sale of office supplies in 2005.
The Quote is about 1:45 - 2:00 in for those who don't want to hear the B-S:
Actor Danny Glover believes that the Haitian earthquake was caused by climate change and global warming:
Says Glover: "When we see what we did at the climate summit in Copenhagen, this is the response, this is what happens, you know what I'm sayin'?"
#1
Glover must think that Gaia is a racist entity for slamming a poor black country for the failures of White and Asian countries to come to an agreement on paying money out to mostly black countries. It is almost like Gaia was holding a hostage.
#3
This guy is a typical Cali bafoon of the first order. Nobody asked me but....not sure what the problem is down there. Leadership void mebe? Appears Washington is a bit timid about being seen as taking charge. Recommend the following COA:
a. Use Pathfinders to set up some key strategic redistro points within walking distance of the worst hit areas.
b. Helo in a Company of 82nd Abn to each and plenty of wire, light-sets, coms, and ammo.
c. Watch the gate. They will come.
d. Conduct re-supply from the airfield as necessary.
#5
And in the "never let a good crisis go to waste" department, BJ Clinton's old klepto-crony aristide wants back in (only to help out, fer sure) and fwance wants Haiti's debts to be forgiven. Uh, isn't an uncollectible debt more or less, pro-forma, excused?
Posted by: M. Murcek ||
01/15/2010 10:26 Comments ||
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#6
e. LTG Russ Honore, bring 3 sets of BDU's, US Passport, boots & pistol, and report to the Army Operations center ASAP.
Posted by: Kelly ||
01/15/2010 10:31 Comments ||
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#8
Quite correct lotp. Just a guess, but I suspect a call for volunteers would result in no less than a 100% response with rucksacks at the 'Green Ramp' within an hour or so. These are "All Americans."
#10
Just a guess, but I suspect a call for volunteers would result in no less than a 100% response with rucksacks at the 'Green Ramp' within an hour or so.
Haven't checked the deployment status of the 82nd but I can tell you that the active duty units are being pushed to Afghan as fast as possible. It's not a question of volunteers - I know damned well what our soldiers are made of, first hand.
But there are HARD choices to be made this year and in our future. Hard ones in part because we ARE stretched extremely thin, and not simply in terms of people -- also logistically and in terms of equipment, airlift capacity and that long long tail that supports units like the 82nd.
Hard choices too because we are facing and will face a lot of less-than-full-combat but still deadly challenges all around the world. Fantasy aside, we cannot do it all. Nor can we lock ourselves away safely behind steel walls.
It's going to be one hell of a decade, friends. To survive it well we're going to have to set aside all traces of fantasy and be very cleareyed and creative.
There is far more dry rot in our national security / defense establishment than I would have believed possible were I not seeing it up close recently. Political correctness isn't even half of it. An entrenched, extremely risk averse and highly uncreative bureaucracy has strangled some of our most important agencies, on the part of both civilian and military leaders. They've pushed out &/or seen retire a VERY large body of technical expertise and situational experience that will be difficult if not impossible to replace - and would require a miracle to reconstitute in the timeframe we're facing.
The same thing is true and more than true WRT the political leadership, D and R. But we half expect it there. To see how advanced it is in our defense and national security areas is ... sobering.
#12
So when Pat Robertson inserts foot in mouth, he gets what he deserves. But when Glover does it... nothing but the sound of crickets from the MSM. Surprised - not.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
01/15/2010 20:25 Comments ||
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#13
I think it would be great if Danny moved to Coo-ba.
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
Egypt coach Hassan Shehata wants only players who observe Islam, and says team selection is based equally on religious piety and skill. Shehata's comments, published Thursday in Egyptian newspapers, show how sports and religion are increasingly mixing in the overwhelmingly Muslim nation of 80 million. There are no Christians on the squad defending its African Cup of Nations title in Angola.
