Iranian has set up offices on a Persian Gulf island also claimed by the United Arab Emirates, Iranian state TV said Monday. The report quoted an Iranian marine official, Ali Taheri Motlaq, as saying Iran had set up two offices on Abu Musa Island (see map here)He said one was a marine rescue center and the other was a registration office for ships and sailors.
It is was the first time in more than a decade that Iran has reported development on the island, which has been controlled by Teheran since Britain gave it up in 1971.
In the same year, Britain also gave up land that is now the United Arab Emirates, which also claims Abu Musa Island. The tiny island is on strategic land, at the entrance to the Strait of Hormuz. Up to 40 percent of the world's oil supply passes through the area.
Israel has rejected frequent requests for arms from Georgia in the months leading up to the outbreak of hostilities with Russia, and an attempt by Georgia to procure missiles from Israel ended in failure, a defense official told the Jerusalem Post on Sunday.
"Several months ago, we carried out an evaluation of the situation in Georgia and realized that Georgia and Russia were on a collision course. We have good relations with both, and don't want to back either in this conflict," the official said. "We therefore made a decision to drastically minimize sales of weapons to Georgia.
Frantic requests from Georgia to Israel for military hardware leading up to the current conflict with Russia set off alarm bells at the Ministry of Defense.
"We saw that there was a surge in requests for weapons, and we therefore decided to, in effect, minimize the entire issue. After our decision, we sold only defensive weapons in small quantities to Georgia," he said. "If Georgia asks us to send in first aid to treat casualties, we will oblige. But we will not get into the heart of the war between Georgia and Russia," he added. I wonder, if Georgia and USA such good allies, why Georgians came to Israel (where you've to pay cash) for weapons?
#2
they may have gone to israel, cause Israel has good weapons.
Israel is an ally of the US, and had the US pressed Israel to sell weapons to georgia, its certain they would have, I think. Theres no evidence that Washington took the imminent threat of conflict in georgia seriously, though.
Israel clearly has an interest in keeping an open LOC to Azerbaijan, which is a prowestern outpost next to Iran. Its also clear that Israel doesnt want to piss off the USSR unnecessarily, and isnt going to sacrifice itself for georgia, esp if it doesnt look like its going to make the difference. Its also true that even IF Israel HAD been selling weapons to Georgia, someone would be trying to say otherwise, to make the Russians less angry.
#3
gromguru: I wonder, if Georgia and USA such good allies, why Georgians came to Israel (where you've to pay cash) for weapons?
I wonder if Russia and Israel are such good allies, why is Russia selling major weapons systems to both Syria and Iran - Israel's most likely adversaries? Are you really Israeli? Or just a Russian troll trying to bait Americans over our relationship with Israel?
#4
He's really Israeli, Zhang Fe, originally from Russia. And a physicist who worked at Los Alamos, as I recall, although not when my little sister was there.
#5
gromguru: I wonder, if Georgia and USA such good allies, why Georgians came to Israel (where you've to pay cash) for weapons?
Maybe they couldn't afford the Cadillac Escalade of weapons systems, so they had to settle for the Chevy Suburban price range.
PRIME Minister Kevin Rudd witnessed a heated discussion between US President George W. Bush and his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, over Russia's invasion of a tiny neighbouring country as athletes paraded before them in the Opening Ceremony on Friday night.
Mr Rudd revealed in an interview with Beijing Now in Beijing on Saturday that he was sitting just two rows behind Mr Bush when an "animated" discussion between he and Mr Putin broke out over Russia's advance into South Ossetia, a breakaway region in neighbouring Georgia.
"The President and Mr Putin were in animated conversation two seats in front of us and I imagine they had a few things on their agenda," Mr Rudd said.
Mr Rudd said that Mr Bush appeared to be making a strong point to the Russian Prime Minister, even as the world's elite athletes filed into Beijing's Bird's Nest stadium.
Mr Rudd backed the US President's position.
"Our position, like the Americans, is that it's important for peace and stability to return to this part of Georgia," he said.
"We recognise and continue to recognise Georgia's soverignty over Ossetia and therefore it's important that Russia cease its military involvement.
"This problem in Ossetia has been brewing for quite some time. Certainly the timing of the actions on the part of the Russians, that's a question best put to them. What I know is the international community is speaking with one voice in support of the cessation of hostilities by the Russians."
#1
Hard to believe Rudd is an Aussie. I always imagine and felt that they were hard customers that wouldn't reveal their favorite beer unless you beat it out of them. I guess we have all been duped by Crocodile Dundee and early ESPN programming of Aussie Rules Football.
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
08/11/2008 15:27 Comments ||
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#2
You could pretty much see that when they showed them during the olympic coverage.
#4
Compare wid FREEREPUBLIC Poster > opined that SOUTH OSSETIAN war bwtn Georgia + Russia is symbolic of a WORLD WAR [Cold War?] FOR CONTROL-DOMIN OF OIL AND NATURAL RESOURCES which IHO/IHB DUBYA = USA FOR SOME MYSTERIOUS REASON DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE INTERESTED IN???
FRENCH President Nicolas Sarkozy will visit Moscow early in the coming week for talks with Russian counterpart Dmitry Medvedev over the fighting in Georgia, the Kremlin and the Elysee said today. Good -- the French are stepping up..... but, it still felt good last night, watching our swim team beat them after all the "trash" talking!
Mr Medvedev and Mr Sarkozy, whose country currently holds the EU presidency, held a telephone conversation in which they "agreed to continue discussions in Moscow", the Kremlin press service said, quoted by Interfax. The French president's office said Mr Sarkozy would visit Moscow "in the coming days" to confer with Mr Medvedev.
Mr Sarkozy said today there was hope of quickly ending the conflict between Russia and Georgia over the breakaway Georgian province of South Ossetia. "Following the withdrawal of Georgian troops from South Ossetia, the president of the republic believes there is a real perspective of rapidly finding a way out of the crisis," the presidency said.
The French presidency said Mr Sarkozy "intends to pursue contacts with both (Georgian and Russian) presidents in the coming hours, to bring their positions closer together and create the conditions to end the crisis".
French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner arrived in Tbilisi overnight and was due to travel to Moscow tomorrow on a mission to mediate in the conflict on behalf of the European Union which is currently presided over by France. Hummm he got there pretty fast. Impressive
He was to submit a three-point peace plan to both sides, based on "an immediate cessation of hostilities; the full respect of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia" and "the re-establishment of the situation that existed before".
#4
Interview on BBC this am where the reporter says he was with Bernard Kouchner and Georgian Prez in Gori when Russian planes tried to attack them. No explanation as to how they avoided attack.
#5
both america and france have traditions of accepting immigrants (not changed by the greater difficulty France has had lately in assimilating its immigrants)
#6
Yes, and in 1962, the Red Army fired on Ukrainian workers during the Novocherkassk protests. Aleksandr Solzhenitsn claimed that wounded laborers were exiled to Siberia.
#7
Interesting that President Sarkozy will meet with President Medvedev, and not Prime Minister Putin, the one who masterminded the current situation. The French fancy themselves subtle diplomats -- what subtlety am I missing here?
#8
Interesting that President Sarkozy will meet with President Medvedev, and not Prime Minister Putin, the one who masterminded the current situation. The French fancy themselves subtle diplomats -- what subtlety am I missing here?
Sarkozy and Medvedev, as presidents, are heads of state. Diplomatic protocol is pretty clear that heads of state meet each other. Vlad is now "only" a head of government. If Sarkozy and Putin do not meet later, that would probably meet both mens' objectives: To the French, it would be presented as a "snub" to Putin, for Putin, he would appear "tough" to his ultra-nationalistic supporters.
The War in Georgia Is a War for the West By MIKHEIL SAAKASHVILI
As I write, Russia is waging war on my country.
A war you started. Let's not forget that ...
On Friday, hundreds of Russian tanks crossed into Georgian territory, and Russian air force jets bombed Georgian airports, bases, ports and public markets. Many are dead, many more wounded. This invasion, which echoes Afghanistan in 1979 and the Prague Spring of 1968, threatens to undermine the stability of the international security system.
No country of the former Soviet Union has made more progress toward consolidating democracy, eradicating corruption and building an independent foreign policy than Georgia. This is precisely what Russia seeks to crush.
This conflict is therefore about our common trans-Atlantic values of liberty and democracy. It is about the right of small nations to live freely and determine their own future. It is about the great power struggles for influence of the 20th century, versus the path of integration and unity defined by the European Union of the 21st. Georgia has made its choice.
When my government was swept into power by a peaceful revolution in 2004, we inherited a dysfunctional state plagued by two unresolved conflicts dating to the early 1990s. I pledged to reunify my country -- not by the force of arms, but by making Georgia a pole of attraction. I wanted the people living in the conflict zones to share in the prosperous, democratic country that Georgia could -- and has -- become.
But Russia, which effectively controls the separatists, responded to our efforts with a policy of outright annexation. While we appealed to residents of Abkhazia and South Ossetia with our vision of a common future, Moscow increasingly took control of the separatist regimes. The Kremlin even appointed Russian security officers to arm and administer the self-styled separatist governments.
Under any circumstances, Russia's meddling in our domestic affairs would have constituted a gross violation of international norms. But its actions were made more egregious by the fact that Russia, since the 1990s, has been entrusted with the responsibility of peacekeeping and mediating in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Rather than serve as honest broker, Russia became a direct party to the conflicts, and now an open aggressor.
Europe kept its distance and, predictably, Russia escalated its provocations. Our friends in Europe counseled restraint, arguing that diplomacy would take its course. We followed their advice and took it one step further, by constantly proposing new ideas to resolve the conflicts. Just this past spring, we offered the separatist leaders sweeping autonomy, international guarantees and broad representation in our government.
Our offers of peace were rejected. Moscow sought war. In April, Russia began treating the Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as Russian provinces. Again, our friends in the West asked us to show restraint, and we did.
Over the past days, Russia has waged an all-out attack on Georgia. Its tanks have been pouring into South Ossetia. Its jets have bombed not only Georgian military bases, but also civilian and economic infrastructure, including demolishing the port of Poti on the Black Sea coast. Its Black Sea fleet is now massing on our shores and an attack is under way in Abkhazia.
What is at stake in this war?
Most obviously, the future of my country is at stake. The people of Georgia have spoken with a loud and clear voice: They see their future in Europe. Georgia is an ancient European nation, tied to Europe by culture, civilization and values. In January, three in four Georgians voted in a referendum to support membership in NATO. These aims are not negotiable; now, we are paying the price for our democratic ambitions.
Second, Russia's future is at stake. Can a Russia that wages aggressive war on its neighbors be a partner for Europe?It is clear that Russia's current leadership is bent on restoring a neocolonial form of control over the entire space once governed by Moscow.
If Georgia falls, this will also mean the fall of the West in the entire former Soviet Union and beyond. Leaders in neighboring states -- whether in Ukraine, in other Caucasian states or in Central Asia -- will have to consider whether the price of freedom and independence is indeed too high.
#1
First order of business, the former soviet now free states should put together an alliance. The foundation of the alliance is that all had tasted soviet hegemony, and that all have chosen not to accept it ever again. The self organizing nature of such an alliance sends a powerful message to russia whose newly emerged identity is one of kgb controlling oil for a select number of oligarchs. The russia of today is the same as the russia of yesterday, only the titles have changed and the apparatus of the state shifted. Russia's population of 150 million, the combined populations of freed states born out of soviet block disintegration is near that number.
russia has no identity left from the bloc days, because its former cohorts have truly seen the inside of the soviet mind and rejected that which flows there from.
Let the independent states recognize that russia would assume its same hegemony and control over each and every one of the free states if it could. Accept the fact that russia can craft a strategem for reenwing its hegemony one state at a time.....so the most logical message is the free state alliance of all former russian occupied territories. Brigade level forces should be assembled and attached by each state to the purpose of reclaiming Georgias soverengity.
Behind that backdrop, the newly arranged allinace would provide the world a signal that russian hegemony will be stopped.
#2
the central asian states mainly arent free, or are too geographically isolated to defy Moscow. Belarus isnt free. Armenia is happy to have Moscow on its side vs Azerbaijan. The Balts are happy to be in NATO, and arent going to endanger themselves by reaching out to Georgia (with more than words, and maybe very quiet help) unless the rest of NATO goes along. That leaves Ukraine and the Azeris. The Azeris, with a conflict with Armenia, and a hostile border with Iran, are already overstretched.
#4
S. Ossetia has a SDP of less than about $20M and fewer than 100,000 people. If not for the fact that some of its citizens (about a third) are ethnically Georgian, it would be essentially worthless to (asian) Georgia.
The Caspian pipeline is well south of the S. Ossetia border.
#5
Oh yeah, great idea, let's start World War IV while we have a substantial amount of our military in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Cheez.
The Georgians brought a lot of this on themselves. They forgot which weight class they ordinarily compete in and now it's costing them. I have no love for the Russians but the Georgians have provoked them rather seriously, and this is what happens occasionally when you pull on the tiger's tail.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/11/2008 11:37 Comments ||
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#6
Small, independent nations provoke the Russians by simply existing.
#7
oh cmon, now, Steve, all evidence is that the Russians were escalating the Ossetian situtiaon political and militarily for weeks. And its still not clear to me who went in to S Ossetia first. And again, S ossetia IS sover Georgian territory, and the idea that a Georgian attempt to change the status quo there, IF that is what happened, is a provocation, is a concession to the Putin view of the world. Again, much evidence (including in russias own statements) is that they were provoked by Saal's attempt to join the West, and by his overthrow of their puppet. Need I remind you that Putin has been putting the econommic squeeze on them for some time?
They know they cant win in S Ossetia militarily. What they THOUGHT is that Putin would be afraid to come after them cause of the West. Putin is testing the West here, and if he wins we will hear no end of it. If we wanted to toss Georgia under the bus cause of the "correlation of forces" the time to do that was in 2003, not now. But we were happy to take their help in Iraq - did we not think they wanted a quid pro quo?
Anyway, we dont have to start WW4 (shouldnt that be 5, BTW, isnt the war on Terror WW4?) We managed to help teh afghans without starting a WW. The Russians are selling antiair assets to Iran.
We can send the Georgians antiair assets. We can offer Ukraine NATO membership (as OS suggests). We can toss the USS, oops, Russia, from the G8. In general we can start playing a lot tougher.
hell, even the French are now sending humanitarian aid to Georgia as we speak. Not much, maybe, but better than hanging around making excuses for the Russians.
#8
I hope that French "humanitarian aid" includes some Exocets. Certainly would love to see the Russians pay for their blockade...
Posted by: Rob Crawford ||
08/11/2008 13:22 Comments ||
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#9
Steve, I'd be with you on this, except that Putin has now escalted by invading Georgia proper - far beyond the original provocation. THey have cut the major E-W road and gonve far ourside SO in significant force. They are also blckading the coast - andother step far beyond the SO conflict.
Russia now appears to be aiming at a complete destruction fo a democratic wester-oriented democracy, and imposing a dictatr that they appoint.
THAT is unacceptable, and it had huge ramifications throuight the formore soviet vassal states.
TO not oppose it, or not take significant actions against Russia now to impose harsh consequences, woudl be bascially to open the gates for Putin and his ultra-nationalist expansionist imperalist ambitions. In many ways, this mirros Hitler and has desrie to inflame national passions to retake "Greater Germany".
So do we stop this "Hitler" at his "Sudeten", or do we allow him to continue his conquests and intimidations to continue until we arrive at a position where we must fight him world-wide again?
Action now can prevent a larger return to the cold war, and possibly even a hot one, between the largest nuclear armed nations.
So either we assassinate Putin, or we act to stop him - and act in such a way that we preclude his most important and desired re-conquests: The Ukraine and Byelorus.
We shoudl also actively supply and support Georgian rebels and guerillas in the event of a complete occupation of Georgia by the gangster's troops. Turn it into a min-afghanistan, introduce them tothe IED, EFP, and (on Russian soil) exploding pipelines.
#10
This is just one more of the messess created by a simple phrase "Self Determination".
A simple phrase but not so simple a concept. What you get is a high sounding gloss over the oldest tribalism. This is nothing more or less than the latest tribal war just like the Balkans and the MidEast and most of the rest of the world over time.
There are various "sweetners" added to the mix like religion or economics or water but it still all comes down to the same old same old.
Russia is just playing bully boy for it own reasons in a tribal feud among the Caucasus tribes.
Georgia was on the path to a pluralistic society of 21st century type but they tried to overcome the tribalism too quickly.
Pretty amazing stuff from 1999 -- and last year as well -- regarding Putin and Russia by John McCain
Speaking about Chechnya in an appearance at Arizona State University in 1999, McCain said: "The mindless slaughter is being conducted by a Russian military that seeks to reassert itself not only in the former Soviet Union but also to extend its reach throughout what used to be the former Soviet Union in an attempt to fold back into the Russian empire those countries that have broken away from it, most notably Georgia." [Editor: note this was in *1999*] The article link in the title goes to that, video below is a different one - you really should watch it, especially the end where he comes to a full prediction about Putin's puppet president (now obvious to all) and his imperialistic and megalomaniac/dictator-like tendencies.
I do not like McCain on Global Warming and amnesty for illegals, but wow, is he appearing to be ever more prescient on Russia and foreign policy, like he was on the surge in Iraq.
Tom Clancy: His original Ghost Recon game had U.S. special forces secretly going into T'bilisi Georgia to deal with Russian invasion forces backed by ultra-nationalist hardliners. The "future date" of the 2001 game was August 2008. Strange coincidence, eh?
#1
McCain is better educated now. I was monitoring qoqaz.net back in 1999. That conflict was an Al-Qaeda Caucasus prelude to later Central Asia jihadism. The Chechens can go to hell with the Georgian Stalinists. So can the Clintons for their lousy moral leadership when Islamo-fascists were making their moves in the Balkans and West Asia.
#2
McZoid calling Georgians "Stalinists" is beyond stupid. You have proven beyond a doubt that you are an idiotic bigoted racist moron. Stay the hell off my threads with that horseshit of yours if you don't want me beating your ass all day and night.
You'd not last a day in the real world where I've been, you worthless piece of shit. Not with a mind so non-functional and locked into bigoted stereotypes and idiotic blind hatred.
#3
Keep on him OS. All this Stalinist Georgia ranting is BS. Stalin was the leader of the Soviet Union as I recall and cared as much for his birthplace as a prostitute does her trick. Additionally, looks like Russia is pushing the war beyond Ossetia and into Georgia proper as Gori is currently under assault from artillery and bombers. It appears Russia may be trying to divide the major transit corridors isolating Tbilisi from Western Georgia. Reports now state 9000 Russian soldiers and 350 tanks amassed in Abkhazia.
#4
Read Daniel Silva's latest book "Moscow Rules". Albeit it is fiction, it is also an interesting take on the existence of the KGB but under its current name of FSB. Very enjoyable and constructive book.
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
08/11/2008 4:48 Comments ||
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#5
This war wasn't a total surprise. What is surprising is how unprepared Georgia was. Which makes me think the Russians suckered the Georgians into this on their timescale.
#6
What's most disturbing about this conflict is how McZoid keeps establishing OS's case without making OS do any work. C'mon Zoid, make him break a sweat.
#7
I can see where reading the Chechen jihadi propaganda on qoqaz.net would jaundice a person. But McZoid dear, why such strong dislike of the Georgians? As far as I can tell they are Orthodox Christians trying to have a democratic and capitalist little country tied to the West instead of to the increasingly authoritarian and jingoist Russia.
#8
I continue to be puzzled how the meme spread that Kosovar Albanians were all Muslims. IIUC a substantial minority were Christians, and were treated the same as the other Albanians.
Obamashvili is hardly a Stalinist, MZ.
Just an ultra nationalist with transi education, promising Greater Georgia to his own people, and free-market/democracy to geniuses at USDS.
p.s. No use talking to OS & co---they just can't forgive Russia for not laying down & dying.
If anyone wants more examples I would be more than happy to provide it.
Strangely, I do not recall any monuments of Herr Adolf Hitler in Austrian Braunau-am-Inn.
Keep going McZoid - prostalinist dogs bark, but the caravan goes on...
Posted by: Matt K. ||
08/11/2008 10:14 Comments ||
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#13
Just a reminder: Serbs are Orthodox Christians, too.
Posted by: Matt K. ||
08/11/2008 10:16 Comments ||
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#14
Matt K. -- are there still monuments to Stalin and Lenin in Russia? If so, then wouldn't that make them Stalinists?
Posted by: Rob Crawford ||
08/11/2008 10:29 Comments ||
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#15
We still have Confederate statues in the southern states, that doesn't mean they still intend to succeed from the union. It is a part of their history, pulling down the statue doesn't mean it never happened. They can have statues of that pig Stalin without being Stalinists.
#16
An important note about Russian political organization.
During the Soviet years, the government had a three sides balance of power: the communist party, the KGB, and the military. If one of the three ever became too powerful, the other two would gang up against it and chop it down to size.
This matters today, because now that the communist party is gone, the FSB (KGB) has become supreme, with a much weaker military playing a distant second fiddle.
Imagine if the CIA was in charge of directing the government and the Pentagon. Start to see the problem?
Russia has now returned to strategic thinking it hasn't had since the Tsarist era. That is, during the Soviet years, they were more concerned with the philosophy of the nations around them than their national behavior.
In the 1960s, Tito of Yugoslavia irritated the hell of the Russians. He drove them out of his country, he snarled at them, and even betrayed them by selling some of their military technology to the West. Conversely, the Czechs were profoundly loyal to Russia, very friendly with them, helpful and cooperative.
So in 1968, Brezhnev ordered the invasion of Czechoslovakia, much to the amazement of the Soviet army.
The reason was that Yugoslavia was a harshly authoritarian state, but Czechoslovakia was, in the eyes of the Kremlin, dangerously liberal. The Russians could live with dictatorial neighbor, but not a liberal one.
But now Russia has returned to what it used to be, back in the days of the Tsar. Putin's #1 consideration is restoring Russian power, both economically and militarily. But this is a problem.
He equates Russian power with governmental power, but threatens to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs by nationalizing the oligarchs business success.
He also wants profound military might, but not with the military leadership as a part of government, just as a tool of the government. And military men do not function well when led by spies instead of an independent and powerful command and general staff.
He cannot imagine how the US government can have such a powerful Pentagon without its C&GS being part of the ruling class.
He wants a return to a one party state, with a rubber stamp parliament, the President being a modern version of the Tsar. This is not because he wants absolute power, but because he is afraid of the "chaos" of a two party state.
What happens next in Georgia will be critical, because it will finally show if Putin has an effective "end game", for ending a situation he has started. This adventure could have extremely bad long term effects for Russian power if he does not pull off a very tactful conclusion, and Russians are not known for tact.
Officially or unofficially, he has created a situation for "everybody who doesn't like Russia" to band together and form a new NATO-type organization. And it would have a LOT of members.
Already, nations are quietly clamoring to aid the Georgians with equipment and maybe even personnel who would be gleeful at the chance to kill Russians.
#17
Rob Crawford - as for now there are NO Stalin monuments in Russia, full stop.
Posted by: Matt K. ||
08/11/2008 11:06 Comments ||
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#18
This is getting to be an awfully heated topic. That said, someone still has to make a serious case for why we should even consider intervening in this mess.
Anyone who tells me we've got sufficient slack in the U.S. military to take this affair on along with all our other commitments is almost certainly not being realistic. Iran has for some time been looming pretty large as an impending problem we're going to be forced to deal with.
I'm sure we could do Georgia if we HAD to, but there has to be an awfully good reason to get so far into what our critics call "imperial overstretch." Again, right now I don't see the justification.
We've got to be careful and husband our resources. We've got a great military but they're humans, not robots, and we don't have enough of them to fight everybody's battles.
Moreover, warfighting costs money that we really don't want to spend right now given our national financial situation. I know very well what Britain was forced to accept at the end of World War II, and they had no choice but to do so because they were effectively bankrupt. We don't want to be in the same straits as they were. We owe far too much to other countries already.
Indeed, it's high time someone else did the fighting rather than us. No one really appreciates our help (witness Iraq arguing for a "definite" pullout date), and we catch a hell of a lot of flak for providing it.
Georgia was part of Russia for a long time and it didn't bother us all that much, if at all. Let them conquer Georgia again if they want to. The campaigns in Afghanistan and Chechnya weren't real beneficial to the Russians; I have no qualms with letting them bite off yet another indigestible chunk of territory filled with people who hate them. I suspect they'll come to bitterly regret it before it's over.
1. We dont have to send troops to have an impact. Thats a strawman
2. The cold war was NOt a comfie time. Do we want the USSR reformed? Do we NOT consider the states that escaped it to have the right to sovereignty, same as other states? The fact is that Russia recognized their independence - they dotn have the right to take them back now. And in doing so they are thumbing their eyes at us, trying to show we are paper tigers.
3. They arent going to try to annex Georgia, cause it would be so costly. But they are going to try to wear down the Georgians. If they can do so, esp if we DONT come to the help of the Georgians, it will lead to the fall of the Georg govt and the rise of a Russian puppit govt.
#20
I enjoy McZ's posts. Don't know what burr he's put under yur saddle OS. Maybe he just meant Stalin was born in Georgia. Both he and his Minister of Death, Beri, were Georgians before they moved on to Moscow.
#21
McZs posts are no more enjoyable than those of far lefties who are routinely sinktrapped here.
Why does Stalin and beria being BORN In georgia mean Georgians should be blamed for them? Georgia is a free country, and Russia is followign Stalinst precedents - indeed the kind of rhetoric we are seeing here today from apologists for the attack on georgia is VERY redolent of classic Stalinist debating styoles
The Democratic Republic of Georgia (DRG; Georgian: საქართველოს დემოკრატიული რესპუბლიკა, Sakartvelos Demokratiuli Respublika), 19181921, was the first modern establishment of a Republic of Georgia.
The DRG was created after the collapse of the Russian Empire that began with the Russian Revolution of 1917. Its established borders were with Russia, Kuban People's Republic and the Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus in the north, Ottoman Empire, Democratic Republic of Armenia in the south, and Azerbaijan Democratic Republic in the southeast. It had a total land area of roughly 107,600 km² (by comparison, the total area of today's Georgia is 69,700 km²), and a population of 2.5 million.
Georgia's capital was Tbilisi, and its state language was Georgian. Proclaimed on May 26, 1918, on the break-up of the Transcaucasian Federation, it was led by the Social Democratic Menshevik party. Facing permanent internal and external problems, the young state was unable to withstand the invasion by the Russian SFSR Red Armies, and collapsed between February and March 1921 to become a Soviet republic
The Georgian-born communist radical Ioseb Jughashvili, better known by his nom de guerre Stalin (from the Russian word for steel: сталь) was prominent among the Russian Bolsheviks, who came to power in the Russian Empire after the October Revolution in 1917. Stalin was to rise to the highest position of the Soviet state.
Established on February 25, 1921, as the Georgian SSR. From March 12, 1922 to December 5, 1936 it was part of the Transcaucasian SFSR together with the Armenian SSR and the Azerbaijan SSR. In 1936, the TSFSR was dissolved. Under Stalin's rule, many Georgians were executed. During this period the province was led by Lavrenti Beria, first secretary of the Georgian Central Committee of the Georgian Communist Party[1]
Soviet comments after the 1921 invasion
Leon Trotsky's Between Red and White (1922)
CHAPTER IX
Self-Determination and the Revolution (extract)
The Realpolitik of today necessitates the conformity of the interests of the workers state with the conditions created by the fact of its being surrounded by large and small bourgeois nationalist-democratic states. We were actuated by such considerations based on an accurate valuation of existing facts, when we maintained our attitude of patience and toleration towards Georgia. But when this attitude, after a long period of trial, did not give us even the most elementary guarantees of safety when the principle of self-determination became, in the hands of General Walker and Admiral Dumesnil, a juridical guarantee for counter-revolution which was preparing a new attack upon us we did not and could not see any moral obstacle in introducing, at the call of the revolutionary vanguard of Georgia, our Red Army, in order to help the workers and poorest peasants with the least possible delay and sacrifice to overthrow that pitiful democracy which had destroyed itself by its own policy.
We do not only recognize, but we also give full support to the principle of self-determination, wherever it is directed against feudal, capitalist and imperialist states. But wherever the fiction of self-determination, in the hands of the bourgeoisie, becomes a weapon directed against the proletarian revolution, we have no occasion to treat this fiction differently from the other principles of democracy perverted by capitalism.
#28
oh and Grom, do you really think Putin is a preferable leader to Obama? MOre of a democrat? More commited to free markets?
He's a lot better for Russia than Obamashvili is for Georgia (look up South Osetia on the map of Georgia). As to the last two: Democracy & Free Markets are not goals in themselves (unless you mean them in the sence of "them doing that is convinient for us"), but a tools for survival of the People.
#29
Let them conquer Georgia again if they want to.
Their primary goal surely isn't Georgian territory, but the independent gas and oil supplies that Georgia was offering, outside of Russian control.
A secondary goal was most likely to take pressure off of Iran as it moves closer and closer to nuclear weapons capability and to a potential strike on Iranian facilities.
And a third goal is no doubt to pressure Eastern European states to withdraw from basing BMD.
#30
So Grom, you fucking nmoron, you claim that a dictatorship by an militarily imposed russian puppet is preferrable to a freely elected wester-oriented democracy for the people of Georgia?
I admire your intrasingence, Crawford. What do you want to proove?
Just for a reminder - we are talking about stalinist Georgians and not about "leninist" Russians.
You -- and others -- keep calling the Georgians "Stalinists". For evidence, you gesture vaguely at the presence of statues of Stalin. For myself, I dislike the idea of those statues, but I can buy that they're there for the same reason there are statues of Confederate generals all over the south -- it's part of the history.
The problem is, "Stalinist" has a particular meaning, and it's not "has statues of Stalin". In that were the case, then the US would be Leninist, because somewhere in Washington state there's a statue of Lenin.
It appears to me -- and, apparently, others -- that slinging the "Stalinist" label at the Georgians is an attempt to smear them to make Americans unsympathetic to them during the Russian invasion.
Posted by: Rob Crawford ||
08/11/2008 13:42 Comments ||
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#32
grom, Im not asking about the georgian dude. Im aksing about Barry vs Vlad. You give teh strong impression taht yuo like Vlad a whole lot more, cause hes tough, not "tranzi". whatever.
#33
lotp - spot on. Gangsters hate competition, and that BCT gas pipeline would have been competition for the thug Putin and his cronies who run Russia. It would have broken their stranglehold on natural gas for Europe.
So no suprise, that like a thug, Putin simply went in and broke the kneecaps of the people that dared to challenge him.
Also, this is an attempt at setting a precedent he can use to "Finlandize" the former soviet republics, and rebuild the Russian empire. He actually appears to beleive in the "Russian" nationlistic version of empire - and has wipped up ultra-nationlistic fevor the way Hitler did for Germany. The parallels are there, Sudeten, etc.
The question now is what will we in the west do?
Will we be Churchill or will we be Chamberlain?
I vote the former. NATO membership NOW for Ukraine. If Georgia survives, insist on INTERNATIONAL peacekeepers to displace the Russians, insist on the current government remaining in place, and start supplying weapons to nearly any and all rebel groups within Russian occupied territory - anywhere in Russia, not just Georgia. We can create a hundred "little afghanistans" all around Russia and bleed them to death.
#34
"Democracy & Free Markets are not goals in themselves (unless you mean them in the sence of "them doing that is convinient for us"), but a tools for survival of the People. "
Life is about more than survival, but survival in freedom. Other than us Jews, not many people have difficulty surviving as slaves.
#35
Democracy & Free Markets are not goals in themselves (unless you mean them in the sence of "them doing that is convinient for us"), but a tools for survival of the People.
WTF is "the People"?
Posted by: Rob Crawford ||
08/11/2008 13:57 Comments ||
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#36
Dear Old Spook, you're obviously very upset. Too upset to maintain your usual pretence that anybody who disagrees with your, a bloke in a pub told me level, opinions is the lowest of the low, the nadir of evil.
#39
If I DONT vote for Obama, it will be because I like McCain better, not because I hold some panslav dictator as better than he is.
You actually seem to think that combining Saals name with Obamas, at a time when Saal is in death struggle with Putin, is an insult to the Georgian. As if you hated Obama more than Putin. I find that very odd.
Perhaps you still think that Putin, despite his support for Iran, despite his alignment against Israel, is still somehow better for Israel than the Euros.
#40
Grom, as far as your "pubmates" go you can go swim with your filth. I've personally seen this kind of damage that you totalitarian ethnic enablers produce as results. That's why I am angry - you are a fool, and are on the side of evil if you continue to make excuses for the naked agression and terroristic actions against civilians that Russia is now comitting in Georgia.
FYI, "tranzi" is trans national socialist.
Georgia was none of those things - so you deliberately misttated the case - i.e. you are a liar and you got busted in the lie.
Its people like you that made Dachau possible, that led to the mass grave in the Balkans. I despise you and all your kind - and your inability to think straight and see the end consequences to your actions of supporting nationalistic empires run by thugs that invade their neighbors.
So do you support the military invation and dismalntling by force of a western freely elected demorcacy by an imperialist Russia hell bent on preventing a) economic competition and b) restoring their "Empire"?
Grom - answer the question you pinhead. Or admit you are wrong. You lose.
As for Russia "eatin gshit" for 20years - how so?
Are you one of those nazi-like bastards who beleive Russia is entitled to empire and can use military foce to crush a democracy to bring it back into the sway of the gangster Putin?
Answer the question.
Answer the question and reveal that you are an enabler and follower of empires and an enemy of freedom.
#43
As for Russia "eatin gshit" for 20years - how so?
The elites there spent twenty years looting the economy of the common man and telling them "this is because of the Americans, the Europeans, the Westerners, and the Zionists." And now they want revenge for this, on the Americans, the Europeans, the Westerners, etc... and the Georgians. They're gonna make them _pay_ for everything the apparachics did to them during the 90's.
#44
Back to the video for a moment.
McCain's observation is brilliant in comparison to Obama's 'talk and hold hands' approach.
I am still wondering just why putin found it necessary to play his hand now. Did something happen, or was that just an eclipse, August first ?
#45
Commodity prices are plummeting. One wonders how heavily the Russian oligarchs were vested in oil, copper, and other mineral-based futures contracts?
#47
gromguru: In these case the Russians who's been eating shit for the last 20 years.
What the heck are you talking about? This is Russia, the country with 17m sq km of land - the largest country in the world by far. Russians have actually been eating crap since the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917 ushered in a new era of god emperors who not only had to be obeyed - they had to be worshiped on pain of death or imprisonment - an era that took 72 years to finally end. Only after Communism fell did Russians everywhere stop having to get in line for basic items. I don't get - if you're Israeli - why you're such a rabid supporter of Russia. Russia is the country that almost intervened with troops on the Arab side in the Yom Kippur War in 1973 and certainly provided all of the Arabs' weapons systems in a war that almost saw Israel overrun. Uncle Sam is the country that almost went to war against Russia to prevent their troop intervention.
#48
zf - some Russian Jews in Israel and the US have A. a real hatred for the EU, etc not unlike the feeling expressed by many on the right. B. a distrust of democracy, again, a far right thing (esp if they see the democratic govt of Israel as traitors) C. Some nostalgia for Russia D. A willingness (like some Russian Orthodox) to seperate Putin from the old Communists.
#50
sg: A willingness (like some Russian Orthodox) to seperate Putin from the old Communists.
Here's what I don't get. Russia is supplying Israel's most likely military adversaries - Syria and Iran - with most of their major weapons systems. He keeps on harping on us supplying Saudi Arabia - whose most probable adversary is either Iraq or Iran - with modern weapons systems.
I think he needs to read a little history. Muslim rulers have have had no compunction about warring against other Muslim nations, perhaps because it's less troublesome to absorb the natives into the empire and conscript them as troops against the infidel. And a big chunk of the Middle East used to be a unitary empire, under the Mesopotamians, the Greeks, the Arabs, the Persians and the Turks. With oil in the Gulf area representing more than half of the world's known reserves, the temptation to put together a unified Muslim empire in the region is far greater than it was in antiquity, when a good chunk of it was wasteland.
#51
ZF - yeah, thats the weak spot. I guess until recently Russian support to Iran was less overt, and Euro hostility to Iran was barely perceptible. And it could be argued the US presence in Iraq was mainly helping Iran. Id say that much has changed, since the election of Sarkozy and Merkel, since the surge and esp the turn of Maliki at least partly away from Iran, and as Putin has become firmer in support of the Iranians.
Its very hard for positions we've become emotionally attached to to change with changing circumstances. It took me almost a good two years to warm up to the new Ariel Sharon, for example. Equally as long to become fully disillusioned with Olmert.
#52
I haven't seen this much angst here since I started posting my opinions on global labor markets on a thread a year ago and had other 'burgers threaten to beat up my family.
Let's not eat our own.
Shouldn't the main things be to determine a) how to limit any generic imperial interests that Russia has and b) to assert some coherent policy for the U.S?
All the other infighting is a distraction.
Posted by: no mo uro ||
08/11/2008 17:11 Comments ||
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#53
how can we try to decide how to limit Russian imperial interests, when some folks here think russia went into S Ossetia as the rightful avenger of the Serbian people against the eevil mooselimbs?
#54
Its very hard for positions we've become emotionally attached to to change with changing circumstances. It took me almost a good two years to warm up to the new Ariel Sharon, for example. Equally as long to become fully disillusioned with Olmert.
I'm scared to ask, but you know Sharon's in a coma, right?
#55
i meant I considered Sharon an extremist in 2000, and by mid 2002 or so, I warmed up to the idea he was pragmatic. Well before his coma, in fact even before he broke with Likud.
#57
Guys, I asked earlier why we should get involved. The closest thing I got for an answer was SG's comment that we really don't have to send troops and that I've raised a strawman with that issue.
I don't see this coming out well for the Russians no matter how it ends. They're going against the flow of history here and doing so in a way that's going to cost them a ton militarily and economically.
The old axiom is "never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake." That's what is happening now. We should beat the UN drum for all it's worth, chastise the Russian invasion as being contrary to the rule of law, and try to get other countries to do so too.
That is as much as we should do. OS is a bit overwrought on this issue, I think; we need to think of our own position first. This can't help but make a lot of otherwise critical countries start reassessing their anti-American attitudes a bit.
One last thing; Russia's demographics and relative military weakness are still the same big problems they were a month ago. This isn't going to make them any better; if anything, it will exacerbate them. That's good for all concerned.
#58
Beating the UN drum (and far more) didn't do much to keep Saddam from getting filthy rich. The Russians wouldn't care and the Europeans would start dealing with them legally or not before long.
#59
De Oppresso Liber. Either you do things or its meaningless.
Now as wo why I was so angry...
The amount of ignorance, bigotry and stupidity on the part of those who were apologists for the Putin regime and their attacks was so huge as to be astounding. And the wrongheaded idiotic and completely lie filled responses from some posters were even worse.
Unlike you, I know this evil. I made a career of fighting in in the Army and in other US agencies.
I could see that the Russians had set this up, and they had. We needed to respond quickly and strongly, moving humanitarian aid, with our military forces, to help our ally. We did not, and now Georgia is under the jackboot of a Russian thug. I could see that they would not stop at the borders, and they did not. I could see they would indisciminately bomb and shell civilians, and they have. I could see what they were up to - and I pretty much see that they may yet roll up ALL of Georgia in their push to destroy the freely elected democratic western government there - a staunch ally of ours in the GWOT, in Iraq.
Yet NONE of the apologists here could see past his own prejudices, and were actually defending the barbaric illegal and offensive acts of the Russian thugs. They still do not admit they are on the side of oppression, they are the supporters of jackbooted thuggery of a free people. They are dishonest, lying to themsleves and us. The sorts of supportsers here are the types I have fought -- they are dominated by hate, race and bigotry.
You are my enemies. You suppoort dictators, thugs and others of that ilk. You threaten freedom, and therefore deserve nothing from me other than my efforts to defeat you.
Look at what you support:
When Russian airplanes dropped bombs on Gori, Georgia, Monday morning, 26-year-old Nikri (who was afraid to give his last name) rushed home to check on his family. The carnage that awaited him was almost too much to bear. A womans severed hand lay by the entrance to his shattered apartment building. Upstairs, he found his wounded wife and one of his daughters alive. But his 2-year-old daughter was dead, the victim of a piece of shrapnel that hit the wall above her bed.
Russians bombing a medical clinic in Gori:
Lali Nikoshvili, 45, was at work Sunday at a medical clinic in Gori when she heard an unbearably loud boom. As a thick cloud engulfed the room, Nikoshvili, a nurse, felt sharp pains in her breast and face. When the dust settled, she saw that the walls and windows were gone and she felt blood running down her right cheek. Lying on a stretcher at the hospital, Nikoshvili was one of about 200 patients with shrapnel and other wounds.
Do you now still offer excuses for Ruissia's massive invasion of Georgia proper, the indiscrimanate bombing and shelling of civilians cites and towns, the destruction of port facilities, the occupation of territory, the "liquidation" (their exact words) of police and government facilities inside Georgia outside of the disputed areas, the naval blockade of even humanitarian supplies (an overt act of war)
Need I go on? Russia is CLEARLY in the wrong.
So yes, I was spitting mad, and had every right to be. I knew what was coming, and knew just how wroing you were. Were you to try to say those things in person, you'd be verbally berated in the same way - I gave you no repect because you deserved none, behaving as a lickspittle for an oppressive thugs.
I know history. I've seen the mass graves of recent failures to oppose dictators bent on power. And I have seen the past price paid for appeasment and failure to act as well, at the US Military cemetaries in France and Belgium, and at Dachau.
You want to see the end product of this? Here is part of it, in the very words of a Russian gangster-state representative in Latvia:
Russias ambassador to Latvia Monday warned the Baltic states and Poland that they would pay for their criticism of the Kremlin over the conflict in Georgia, the Baltic news agency BNS reported.
"One must not hurry on such serious issues, as serious mistakes can be made that have to be paid for a long time afterwards," Alexander Veshnyakov was quoted as saying by BNS.
Contacted by AFP, a spokesman for the Russian embassy in Riga confirmed the ambassadors comments but declined to elaborate.
There you have it - naked agressive threats.
The world once before failed to oppose an Ultranationalist charismatic leader who used bullying and force of arms. Putin and the stupid population of Russia are repeating the Hitler's playbook from the Ruhr and in Sudetenland.
Our only hope is a strong and quick response, to force a price, a hard price, onto Russia's imperialistc agression in Georgia. And to assemble and back allies such as the Ukraine, as well as to promote, and, if neccesary, clandestinely arm freedom fighters around the periphery of Russia.
Remember the apocryphal maxim of Burke:
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing
#60
Attacking Stalin - other than his pan-nationalist side - will get you murdered in Georgia. Georgians are not pro-West; they are anti-Russia. Georgians want to use NATO, just as they used Islamofascists to diminish the capacity of the Russians to crush Chechen al-Qaeda.
What would Bush do if the Mexican government began to murder the 10,000 Americans who live in Guadelajara? Or...what did Reagan do when internal Grenadan politics was taken to be a threat to US medical students?
I am an imperialist. I want the Persian Gulf turned into an Anglo-American pond. I respect the territorial integrality of demographic cess pools like Iran and Georgia, in exact measure of their support for same.
Old Spook:
Don't use language that you wouldn't use in front of your children. lotp is at her wit's end with your vulgarity and knee jerk Carterism. Post a nominal "intelligence" report to which you contributed your learned whatever. Why do I suspect same would be a dog's breakfast of non sequitors?
Come on, some of this post is like the worst of Yahoo.
#61
McZoi, you are an IDIOT. What is the metnally retarded fixation you have on Stalin?
Stop lying - its NOT that way in Georgia. I challenge you to prove such wild accusations. You are making extraordianry claims, you need to supply extraordianry proof.
Calling Georgia a "cesspool" comparable to Iran - PROVE IT. Or admit you are lying (which is obviously the casse - or else you are so demented as to beleive your own lies).
"knee jerk Carterism"
ROFL! You are really so metnally deficient as to call me that? WHere was I being Carter? Hmm chum? Care to back your words with facts?
Its called REALITY, and unlike Carter (and Bush)I advocate a very strong military backed response to the Russian agression in Georgia.
"Post a nominal "intelligence" report to which you contributed your learned whatever."
Show my your clearance, and I can tell you where to find many of them.
"I am an imperialist."
I know now you are an enemy - someont that woudl impose imperial rule as opposed to liberation. The jackboot does fit you rahter nicely you little Hitler wannabe.
#62
The key point I got from the Belmont Club post was this: The 130+ US advisers in Georgia are staying put and are actively engaged in support of the Georgian Army. That is a significant sign of US resolve.
The American military and intelligence officials say there has been an increase in recent months in the number of foreign fighters who have travelled to Pakistan's Tribal Areas to join with militants there, according to a report published in The New York Times on Sunday.
The American officials say the influx shows a further strengthening of the position of Al Qaeda in the Tribal Areas, increasingly seen as an important base of support for the Taliban.
Fighters: According to the American officials, many of the fighters making their way to the Tribal Areas are Uzbeks, North Africans and Arabs from Persian Gulf states.
The number of foreign fighters entering Iraq has dropped to fewer than 40 a month from as many as 110 a month a year ago, a military spokesman in Baghdad said on Wednesday. "The sanctuary situation in Pakistan's Tribal Areas and the NWFP is more, rather than less, troublesome than before," Gen David D McKiernan, the new NATO commander in Afghanistan, said in a telephone interview. "The porous border has allowed insurgent militant groups a greater freedom of movement across that border."
Flights: Some of the foreign militants take commercial flights into Pakistan and make their way to the Tribal Areas by car or bus, while a smaller, undetermined number go overland through Iran and then up through Balochistan, the Defence Department official said. McKiernan said, "There are noticeably more non-Pashtun-speaking fighters than this time last year."
"The ability of the Taliban to cross that border and not being under any pressure from the Pakistani side of the border is clearly a concern," Defence Secretary Robert M Gates told reporters two weeks ago in one of his most pointed comments to date on the situation. "That's the area that needs to be addressed with the Pakistani government."
The Bush administration is struggling to work with the Afghan and Pakistani governments to find an effective combination of political, diplomatic and military tools to help stem the increasingly entrenched insurgency, but it has faced difficulties dealing with Pakistan's new coalition government, officials say.
American options for strikes inside the Tribal Areas are limited. The CIA has armed, remotely piloted Predator aircraft ready if high-level insurgents are located. But a Pentagon order authorising an increased campaign by the Special Operations forces in the Tribal Areas remains under review by administration officials.
President Bush's new homeland security adviser, Kenneth L Wainstein, travelled to Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Qatar and Kuwait last month, and urged leaders in those countries to help crack down on groups that are helping to finance the insurgency in the Tribal Areas.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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Al Qaeda held President Pervez Musharraf responsible for endangering Pakistan's security, reported Geo News on Sunday. In an audiotape purportedly from Ayman Al Zawahiri, Zawahiri is quoted as saying that Musharraf mistreated AQ Khan to please Washington and allowed US agencies' operations inside Pakistan.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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As Afghan President Hamid Karzai urged NATO and the international community to target terrorist "sanctuaries" inside Pakistan, the Taliban leadership promised over the weekend that they could easily take over Karachi, Pakistan's largest city. It's a development that rang many alarm bells in India, particularly as it views with increasing concern Pakistan's growing tryst with instability.
Whether Pakistan's embattled President Pervez Musharraf resigns on Monday or not, India's concerns are more extensive. While political instability rages inside Pakistan, the Taliban and al-Qaida militants are digging in, not only in the FATA areas but also in interiors of Pakistan. According to Indian security sources, almost half of the Taliban strength now comes from foreign fighters like Uzbeks, Chechens and Punjabis from Pakistan's heartland.
And the more difficult fact -- that nobody quite knows what to do about -- is a large number of Uzbeks and Chechens apparently come through Iranian territory. On Saturday, this was manifested in a statement by the Tehrik-e-Taliban, better known as the Pakistan Taliban under Baitullah Mehsud.
Maulvi Omar was quoted as saying that Altaf Hussain (MQM) should know that the Taliban could take over Karachi whenever they wanted. He said the people of Karachi "should have no fear from the Taliban as we preach solidarity amongst Muslims". Pakistani media reports quoted Omar as saying that the Taliban had much strength in Karachi as well as in other parts of the country. "We are capable of capturing any city of the country at any given time," he emphatically stated.
"We want to strengthen Muslims as well as our movement, so we need cooperation from all the parties, religious or political," said Omar.
"Our battle is not with Muslims but with anti-Muslim and tyrannical forces. The jihad against these elements is not only in Karachi but across the country and it will be carried out until we have a complete hold on the world," he declared.
Meanwhile, Karzai has been taking an approach that is sorely lacking in India -- calling attention of the world on the "sanctuaries" of terror inside Pakistan, instead of airstrikes inside Afghanistan, which only serve to kill innocent civilians and turn public opinion against the West.
"If the world acts properly now and pays attention to the nests of terrorists, their training sites...the problem of
the region would be solved," Karzai said. The Afghan president said that he did not wish to harm Pakistan but wanted the destruction of financial centres and training bases of terrorists there. According to Karzai's advisors, between the Taliban and Jalaluddin Haqqani's group, there are somewhere around 6,000-8,000 suicide fighters ready to be "martyred". The difficult areas, according to Indian sources, are the Gardez-Khost road inside Afghanistan and the Kunar and Nuristan provinces. "The struggle against terrorism is not in the villages of Afghanistan," Karzai said. "The only result of the use of airstrikes is the killing of civilians. This is not the way to wage the fight against terrorism," he added.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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During the recent parleys among ruling coalition partners in which the alliance reached the consensus for the impeachment of President Musharraf, JUI-F chief Maulana Fazlur Rehman asked PPP Co-Chairman Asif Ali Zardari and PML-N Quaid Mian Nawaz Sharif to decide first who would be the next president after the impeachment of Musharraf or in case he resigned under pressure, TheNation learnt through reliable sources.
The sources further claimed that Nawaz Sharif, while sharing the hidden desire of Fazl to be the next president of the country, said that it would be better to tolerate Pervez Musharraf than to replace him with Fazlur Rehman.
The sources claimed though Fazl didn't ask for the slot directly, his insistence and tune revealed to both Zardari and Nawaz that JUI-F chief wanted to be the next president with the assistance of the coalition partners. "This was Nawaz Sharif who came forward as saying that the decision of future president should be taken after Musharraf's ouster," the sources told. According to sources, Mian Nawaz Sharif said, "The ruling alliance should focus on President Musharraf's ouster, instead of negotiating over the name of next president, as this might spoil the negotiations process."
The sources further claimed that Nawaz Sharif, while sharing the hidden desire of Fazl to be the next president of the country with his comrades at Punjab House later, said that it would be better to tolerate Pervez Musharraf than to replace him with Fazlur Rehman.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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Jammu: Bad news is seldom strange coming out of this state; the trouble is it just got worse twice over. For long, there had just been the "Kashmir Problem" to cope with. Now, quite suddenly, theres the "Jammu Problem", too.
Disruption and closure have become staple to the Valley. Its Jammus 40-day intransigence that has left the powers baffled and harried.
"About time," says Agnishekhar, the convener of Panun Kashmir, an umbrella body of migrant Pandits. "If they thought they could take Jammu for granted forever, they thought wrong. This outburst is actually a consequence of taking them for granted and making them feel theyre impotent. But we have a problem, too, now face it."
It makes things no easier that this is an umbilical discord -- inextricably twined and contrary in ambition. Begin to address one and the other leaps violently out of hand. A senior official in governor N.N. Vohras secretariat said: "The clever monkey in the story of the two cats had the luxury of distributing justice between cats, here we have two panthers pouncing and we, quite truly, are clueless monkeys. And, not to forget, frightened, too. Things are fast slipping out of hand."
Clueless monkeys? That is sure to reassure the Indian people about their Kashmir Governor.
The Valley will give not an inch of land around the Amarnath cave to the shrine board, Jammu will have not an inch less than the "allotted" 80 or so acres. The first attempt for seeking common ground was busted before it began yesterday.
The Shri Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti would not so much as countenance the thought of sitting at the same table with Valley leaders. Valley politicians -- middle-roaders like Farooq Abdullah included -- are now daring Jammu to find a solution minus them.
The Samiti believes this is its first victory -- it thumbed its nose at Abdullah, Saifuddin Soz and Mehbooba Mufti and forced them to stand out of the all-party central delegation that came to Jammu yesterday. The Valley politicians have retreated to Srinagar and fired a riposte that may force the Samiti to rethink the wisdom of celebrating its feat. "If you think you can find a way to Amarnath without talking to us, please go ahead and do it," Mehbooba said, caustically.
Her message was blunt: the Amarnath cave and its environs arent anything that can be dug out and flown to Jammu. So if arrangements have to be agreed upon, the Valleys politicians will have to be central to them. Shed been persuaded to stay out of the all-party team yesterday, but it is apparent she did it at her displeasure.
An academic at the Jammu University who advocates the regions "deep and justified grievances" in relation to the Valley agrees the Samiti may have made a tactical error in keeping the Valley politicians off the table. "After all, they have to be an intrinsic part of any agreement," he says, "and closing the doors on them in this fashion, no matter what the differences, will not help. Positions are getting calcified on both sides and that is not a good sign."
For the moment, though, Jammu doesnt care and Mehbooba can be damned. Her effigies are being kicked about and burnt by mobs that have defied curfew not merely in Jammu but also in nearby district townships of Kathua, Samba and Ranbirsinghpura.
Part of the difficulty in imposing restrictions has been that women and children have led these protest phalanxes; the army and the police have both been forced into restraint.
Jammu lies spreadeagled under curfew and unending spools of concertina wiring; every time they are unhooked, a procession pours forth. "N.N. Vohra hai, hai, Mehbooba Mufti hai, hai, lad ke lenge Amarnath, mar ke lenge Amarnath. (Shame, shame, N.N. Vohra, shame, shame Mehbooba Mufti, well fight to take Amarnath, well die to take Amaranth.")
Still in the flush of a movement whose vigour has taken its protagonists by surprise, Samiti leaders are breathing fire without concern for what the consequences might be. "Mehbooba Mufti is nobody to pronounce judgement on us or decide out fate," says Lila Karan Sharma, the convener of the Samiti. "She is our enemy number one at the moment. She talks of dual currency in India, she talks of opening Kashmir to Pakistan, she constantly challenges the unity and integrity of India even though she is oath-bound as a member of Parliament, she doesnt have a leg to stand on."
Ask Sharma how a solution is to be achieved without talking to leaders from the Valley and he retorts: "Thats for the Government of India to find out, can it not see that the very people it has pampered all these years are threatening to secede from the country? New Delhi has to deal with these leaders and assert itself. I am an Indian, if the government cannot ensure rights for me in Kashmir, who will? I dont have any hopes of the Kashmiri leadership, I have seen enough of them, my only appeal is to the Government of India."
It has pleased Sharma and his ranks no bit that the all-party delegation carried on to Kashmir after its business in Jammu. "What did they go there for? The problem is here, in Jammu, with us. But that is the problem with the government, it only wants listen to the Valleys problems and appease those who have only made trouble for the country. This will have to change, that is what this movement is all about, change the way this state has been working all these years
Posted by: john frum ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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A bizarre ruling banning women from buying suggestively shaped vegetables such as cucumbers, and the brutal slaying of children, lost Al Qaeda the support of the Iraqi population, it emerged yesterday.
The Daily Mail discovers what we knew in 2006 ...
Al Qaeda's enforcement of a severe form of Islamic law sapped support among the people for its campaign against American and Iraqi forces, allowing Arab tribal leaders to drive Al Qaeda out of the strongholds it had created.
Sheikh Hameed al-Hayyes, a Sunni tribal leader from a former Al Qaeda stronghold in the west of Iraq, said: 'I saw them slaughter a nine-year old boy like a sheep because his family didn't pledge allegiance to them.'
Life under Al Qaeda was not only violent but also farcical. 'They even killed female goats because their private parts were not covered and their tales were pointed upward,' Hayyes said. 'They regarded the cucumber as male and tomato as female. Women were not allowed to buy cucumbers, only men.'
Men would have fingers cut off for smoking, hair salons and shops selling cosmetics were bombed, and ice-cream salesmen were killed because ice cream was not available during the time of Islam's Prophet Mohammad. 'Al Qaeda wanted to kill me and blow up my shop because I sold music CDs,' said Ahmed Yasin from Samarra, north of Baghdad.
Singing, shaving and the medical treatment of women by male doctors were all among activities considered by Al Qaeda to be forbidden by Islam. 'Al Qaeda prohibited the shaving of beards and banned sideburns and long hair. Barbers were killed because they did not obey,' said Kais Amer, a barber from Mosul in the north of Iraq.
Leaflets threatened women with kidnap or death for not wearing an all-enveloping robe.
The forced marriage of Iraqi women and girls to al Qaeda members by tribes intimidated by the group was not uncommon.
Disgusted by such acts, Sunni Arab tribal leaders - whose men once formed the backbone of the insurgency against American and Iraqi forces - turned on Al Qaeda in late 2006, and with American backing helped to remove Al Qaeda.
Until the overthrow of former President Saddam Hussein in 2003, Iraq was largely secular in outlook. Iraqis of different sects and ethnicities intermarried, women would dress in jeans and T-shirts and Baghdad was packed with bars and discos.
America claims that Iraqi rejection of the Al Qaeda rules is one reason behind a drop in the number of bomb attacks targetting Iraqi civilians and coalition troops.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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#4
Cucumbers have long been the nemesis of Muslims. Even in the old harems of the Sultans, cucumbers had to be chopped up before being given to the girls to eat.
#5
Those boys must have feelings of severe inadequacy if they're afraid of cucumbers. That's almost enough to make me feel sorry for them. Almost, but not quite.
(VOI) - The Commander of Iraq's fledgling navy force on Sunday said his country's revenues increaed following a military crackdown four months ago on Shiiite militias in the southern city of Basra.
Speaking at a press conference in the 70th anniversary of the force, Brig.Gen. Moahmed Jawad Kadhim, comamnder of Navy Forces, said "crackdown(on Shiite militia) in Basra ended the control of smuggling gang over Iraqi ports and secured the move of commercial entering and departing Iraqi ships".
Last March, Iraqi security forces backed by U.S troops conducted a large-scale operation in Basra dubbed as Saulat al-Fursan(Knights' Assault) to crack down om militias and to wrestle control over illegal commercial dealings inside and across Iraqi terrotories. "Putting on muscle to protect the two terminals that account for 90 percent of Iraq's revenues, the 1900-person navy force is aiming to boost manpower by about 3000 in two years and greatly expand its fleet".
More control over its wreck-ridden waters at the head of the Gulf is another sign of Iraq's determination to secure its oil infrastructure and reserves, the world's third largest. The navy's goal is to take on more duties from U.S., British and Australian warships that now patrol the two terminals, the al-Basra facility, capable of loading four tankers, and the single-berth Khur al-Amaya.
The fleet's tiny size means only one Iraq vessel at a time can make the four-hour voyage out of the muddy Khur Abdullah waterway to the terminals to join the patrol. The Iraqi official unveiled Iraqi government approved purchasing ships and naval units from Italy along with reinforcing equipment".
He highlighted "under the expansion plam Iraq would receive 26 Predator patrol boats along with 40 units to kickstart the first stage for comabtting terrorism and to pave the way for the second stage of facing external challenges".
Kadhim branded the ties with Iran as friendly despite trading jabs over violating maritime borders.
"The policy of Iraq's navy based on building on naval peace with neighbouring Iran,"he explained. The Iraqi offical refered to new phases of cooperation with Kuwait and Qatar, the two Gulf countries. "Kuwait contributed in protecting British facilities that have increased Iarqi oil production, while Qatar opened training courses for 27 Iraqi divers," He added.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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Gaza Ma'an Seven people went missing and three were rescued on Sunday after a tunnel collapsed under the Egypt- Gaza border near Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip. Missing? I'll bet I can tell you where they are.
Efforts to rescue those trapped are ongoing, said Director of ambulance and emergency service in the Palestinian health ministry Mu'awiya Hassanain. They try to smuggle in an elephant this time?
Hassanain denied reports that rescue leaders had been killed during their efforts. I'm sure they'll be fine once we dig them out.
Five have died already this week after a similar incident.
A top negotiator said on Sunday Palestinians may demand to become part of a binational state with Israel, if the Jewish state continued to reject the borders they propose for a separate country.
This is the big fear and is what motivated Ariel Sharon to get out of Lebanon, Gaza and eventually the West Bank. If the Paleos could ever make this stick Israel would be broken.
Ahmed Qurie, who heads Palestinian negotiators in U.S.-brokered talks with Israel, told Fatah party loyalists behind closed doors that a two-state solution could be achieved only if Israel met their demands to withdraw from all occupied land.
"The Palestinian leadership has been working on establishing a Palestinian state within the '67 borders," Qurie said, referring to land in the West Bank and Gaza Strip that Israel captured in a 1967 war, which Palestinians seek for a state. "If Israel continues to oppose making this a reality, then the Palestinian demand for the Palestinian people and its leadership (would be) one state, a binational state," he added at the meeting held in the West Bank town of Ramallah.
His comments were carried in a statement issued after the meeting.
Israel objects to the idea of forging a joint state, and says absorbing millions of Palestinians could undermine its future as a majority Jewish country.
The chances of achieving Washington's goal of a peace deal before President George W. Bush leaves office next year have dimmed since a scandal-struck Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert announced last month he planned to resign in the coming weeks. Despite the Israeli political crisis, Olmert, who has vowed to pursue peace efforts until he leaves office, met with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas last week. The two are said to be planning additional talks later this month.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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Top|| File under: Palestinian Authority
#1
A great recipe for another Lebanon or Bosnia...
Posted by: Matt K. ||
08/11/2008 1:16 Comments ||
Top||
#2
No chance. The bi-national state was tried from Camp David and we know how that turned out.
#3
A bi-national state will only be possible once the Jews are destroyed - then the Shia and Sunni 'nations' will carry on the old Mohammedan family traditions on each other.
(Xinhua) -- Hamas and Egypt have widened their differences over prisoner swap between Hamas and Israel, and calls among Hamas to withdraw the Egyptian mediation increased, a Palestinian official source said Sunday.
The source made the remarks to the London-based Asharq Al-Awsat Arabic newspaper as he held that "there are deep differences between Hamas and Israel" over a deal for the swap under Egyptian mediation.
Hamas demands Israel to free 1,000 of some 11,000 Palestinian prisoners in exchange for Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit who was kidnapped in Gaza in June 2006. But the two sides have failed to reach an agreement up to now.
"Many in Hamas accuse Cairo of delaying the process of mediation with Israel and not adopting the conditions that Hamas puts to free Shalit," the newspaper quoted the source as saying.
The differences increased to the point of calls for withdrawing the file from Egypt and asking a European side to mediate instead, said the source.
In July, German mediators succeeded to achieve swap between Israel and Lebanon's guerrilla group of Hezbollah.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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(Xinhua) -- The decision-making body of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) discussed an idea of announcing the Hamas-controlled Gaza "a rebel region", sources said on Sunday.
According to the sources, the PLO executive committee discussed the plan recently after peaceful efforts to end the split between the West Bank and Gaza seem to have scored nothing.
"A large trend is being crystallized among the Palestinian National Authority (PNA) in Ramallah to call for settling the situation with the Gaza Strip by force," the sources said.
In June 2007, Hamas ousted the long-dominant Fatah movement, routed forces loyal to President Mahmoud Abbas and seized control of the coastal strip.
As Hamas tightened its grip on Gaza, Abbas consolidated his rule in the West Bank. Efforts to make reconciliation between the two sides often failed as each party cracked down against the supporters of the other party.
Before announcing Gaza a hostile entity, the Palestinian leadership wants "to give the last chance for the Egyptian government and the Arab League to convince Hamas to immediately end its coup and engage in the dialogue," the sources said.
"But the door for dialogue will not be open forever and the leadership only gave one month time for the efforts," the sources added.
The plan would deem Gaza "a rebel territory ruled by armed militia." Accordingly, all services offer to the Gaza Strip, such as coordinating for sending food, paying the expenses of electricity and water, and paying for its employees would be halted.
The Gaza banks will also be asked to shut down and the PNA will stop sending currency to Gaza. The leadership, at the end, will call on the United Nations to send forces to liberate Gaza from Hamas.
Commenting on the report, Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoom said such decision "will be a dangerous thing if it was officially made."
"It will boost the internal split and separate Gaza from the West Bank," Barhoom said, adding that "Fatah elements who dominate the PLO's executive committee have a plan to prevent any attempt of approach between Hamas and Fatah."
He also considered such a decision "sort of punishment for 1.5 million Gazans."
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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A KEY aide to the Syrian president who was assassinated last weekend in mysterious circumstances had been supplying Hezbollah, the Lebanese militant group, with advanced Syrian SA-8 anti-aircraft missiles, according to Middle Eastern sources.
Once operative, the mobile missiles will threaten the dominance of the Israeli air force over Lebanon.
The assassinated aide, Brigadier-General Muhammad Suleiman, 49, was "more important than anyone else", wrote the London-based Saudi paper Al-Sharq al-Awsat last week: "He was senior even to the defence minister. He knew everything."
He was killed by a single shot to the head as he sat in the garden of his summer house near the northern port city of Tartus.
Nobody heard the shot, which appears to have been fired from a speedboat by a sniper, possibly equipped with a silencer. The expertise required to execute such a long-distance sniper murder has led suspicion to fall upon the Israelis.
Suleiman had been President Bashar al-Assad's personal mentor since 1994, after the death of the president's brother Basel in a car accident. Assad later appointed Suleiman as his operations officer and made him responsible for protecting the regime.
If Syria has passed Russian-made SA-8 mobile launchers to Hezbollah, the Shi'ite militia that came close to defeating the Israeli army two years ago, it is in possession of a potent weapon to defy Israeli air power.
Ehud Barak, Israel's defence minister, recently warned that Hezbollah was straining his country's patience in Lebanon. Hezbollah announced last week its next military step would be "to stop Israeli fighter planes flying over our land".
Despite the risk of jeopardising peace negotiations between the two countries, the attack appears to have been intended as a warning to the Syrian regime.
According to Israeli sources, during Assad's visit to Paris last month Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, asked President Nicolas Sarkozy to tell Assad that he was "crossing a red line supplying arms to Hezbollah in Lebanon".
Last week the Israeli defence cabinet was presented with an intelligence report on Syria's arms supplies to Hezbollah.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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Top|| File under: Govt of Syria
#1
Well, that certainly narrows down the list of suspects.
The expertise required to execute such a long-distance sniper murder has led suspicion to fall upon the Israelis.
Or the Russians (who have a presence in Tartous). Or the Syrians. Or Hesb'allah. Or a contractor...
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
The War in Georgia Is a War for the West
