#1
I wonder if their 35 hour workweek and manditory August vacations had anything to do with the French performances? Nah! Maybe it's the genetically modified food they've been eating since leaving France. Or could it be that their egos are stronger than their bodies?
Posted by: Richard of Oregon ||
08/11/2008 15:30 Comments ||
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#2
Add this to the comments of the INDIAN Winner of the AIR RIFLE gold.
Is it just me, or are certain OLYMPIANS/ATHLETES unhappy, or going out of their way to make it clear to the Media = World they don't like or want to be in Beijing???
CHINESE "DUMPLINGS-GATE" REDUX???
We missed the MSM-Net News on OWG Enviro/Globwarming-Correct weird niche, NOTHING-MOM-WOULD-EVER-COOK/MAKE-FOR-YOU-NOR-WOULD-SHE-FOR-DINNER, FIDO-AND-KITTY-AND-GEICO GECKO-ETC. WOULD-ESCAPE/FLEE-IFF-THEY-KNEW cuisine being dev and *cough* cough* - EATEN - cough*cough* in JAPAN this week , didn't we???
Bangladesh's army-backed interim government s re-introduced an Aug. 15 public holiday to mark the death of the country's founding leader, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, officials said on Sunday. The Bangladesh High Court ruled late last month that a previous government's cancellation of the holiday was illegal, and asked the new interim government to rectify it. "The government has decided to abide by a recent high court ruling in this regard," chief spokesman for the head of the interim government, told reporters. The Aug. 15 holiday was scrapped in 2002 by the government of former Prime Minister Begum Khaleda Zia, after she won a 2001 election by defeating Mujib's daughter Sheikh Hasina, another former prime minister.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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Voters strongly reaffirmed their faith in President Evo Morales on Sunday in a recall referendum that the Bolivian leader devised to try to break a political stalemate in the bitterly divided Andean nation, partial unofficial results showed.
Also subject to recall were eight of the country's nine governors, three of whom were ousted, according to a quick count by the Ipsos-Apoyo firm. They included two opponents of Bolivia's first indigenous president.
Nearly 61 percent of voters ratified the mandate of Morales and his vice president, Alvaro Garcia, according to the quick count of votes from 800 of the country's 22,700 polling stations done for the ATB television network. The two were elected in December 2005 with 53.7 percent of the vote.
The referendum was a bold gamble by Morales, a former coca growers' leader, to try to revive his stalled crusade to remedy age-old inequities in South America's poorest country.
His leftist agenda has met with bitter opposition in the unabashedly capitalistic eastern half of the country, where protesters last week blockaded airports to keep Morales from touching down for campaign visits.
All four governors there easily survived Sunday's plebiscite, as expected. But the initial results indicate Morales did score gains with the defeat of opposition governors in the highland province of La Paz and in Cochabamba, seat of his coca-growers movement. The recently elected governor of central Chuquisaca province was exempt from the referendum.
Under the law that set the referendum's rules, politicians whose "no" votes exceed the percentage by which they were elected are ousted. It also lets Morales name temporary replacements pending provincial elections.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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Thales is looking for export sales of its airborne optronics equipment on to Russian-built fighters, given that the U.S. market is effectively closed to foreign suppliers of such gear, CEO Denis Ranque said.
That weakness in the fleet of Sukhoi and MiG fighters has opened up opportunities for selling products such as the Damocles targeting pod and OSF infrared search-and-track equipment fitted on the Rafale fighter from France's Dassault Aviation, Ranque says.
Components made by France's Thales Group will be the first from a Western company to be integrated into weapons procured by the Russian Defense Ministry. Thales and the Russian government arms export agency, Rosoboronexport, signed a contract July 9 to supply Catherine FC thermal imaging cameras for Russian T-90 tanks through a joint production arrangement. The contract further boosted Thales' position as a Russian industry partner in defense optronics for land forces, which the French firm has cultivated over a decade of cooperation in Russian export contracts.
Igor Sevastyanov, Rosoboronexport's deputy general-director, did not disclose the price of the latest contract, saying only that it was several million euros. "The contract was being prepared for a long time because of the negotiations to get licenses and other permission to deliver this equipment both in Russia and France," he told journalists at the Russian Expo Arms-2008 show in Nizny Tagil. Sevastyanov said the Thales equipment will be delivered to Russia within two to three months.
A tender to be held this year will decide what Russian optical plant will jointly produce Thales cameras, Sevastyanov said. Serge Adrian, a Thales representative who signed the contract, said Thales is ready to pass Russia all the technical documentation and to help set up a joint venture to produce cameras in 2009.
#2
That Thales equipment is installed on Indian T90s bought from Russia.
Most have broken down in the heat of the Rajasthan desert during exercises. Most of India's T90 fleet is now blind at night and the Indian army is not happy at the failure of its thermal imaging systems.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/11/2008 17:26 Comments ||
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#3
Most of India's T90 fleet is now blind at night
Well, if their soldiers unionize like their european betters have, then they will not have to fight at night, on weekends or under dusty conditions.
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia has boosted its forces in Abkhazia, a second rebel region of Georgia, and now has more than 9,000 paratroopers and 350 armour there, Interfax news agency quoted an aide to the commander of Russian peacekeepers as saying on Monday. "The strengthening of the peacekeeping force is aimed at ruling out a repetition of the situation Russian peacekeepers faced in Tskhinvali," Alexander Novitsky was quoted as saying.
Tskhinvali is the capital of South Ossetia, another breakaway region of Georgia where Russian forces are now in control after a failed military operation by Georgia to re-assert government control.
"Our troops have to defend ... civilians and avert a humanitarian catastrophe," he said.
A 1994 ceasefire agreement following a war in which Georgian troops were forced out of Abkhazia allows Russia to have 3,000 peacekeepers there, although it has deployed only about 2,500 until recently.
Photographers and cameramen in Abkhazia say that for the past two nights Russian cargo planes have been flying troops and armour into the Black Sea territory which, like South Ossetia, has often said it wants to be part of Russia.
Why has Russia reverted to traditional means of controlling its former satellite states? At the heart of Vladimir Putin's aggressive nationalism is his firm belief that the power of the West is on the wane, says James Sherr.
As billions watched China stake its claim to being the 21st century's leading power, with a stunning opening ceremony at the Beijing Olympics, its former Cold War partner was pursuing its own ambitions in an altogether more traditional way. Russia's brutal demonstration of power in South Ossetia, a breakaway region of its southern neighbour Georgia, marks the latest -- and most alarming -- sign of the Kremlin's determination to reclaim control over former Soviet states.
These former satellites have now been left in no doubt that Russia must be regarded as "glavniy", or number one, if they wish to avoid the fate of Georgia. Central to Vladimir Putin's nationalistic policy is a conviction that the power of the West -- seemingly unassailable at the end of the Cold War -- is on the wane. The current crisis demonstrates that the Cold War has not been replaced by common values between East and West, but by the revival of hard Realpolitik.
#1
If this is the case that he believes that then we MUST act to counter him.
The strongest action we could take that he could not counter would be to get Ukraine into NATO and get basing/exercise rights there.
Fast.
Force aside the Germans and their obstructionism - remind them the price Georgia has paid due to their appeasement of a thug nation led by a KGB-Mafia don, Putin.
Ukraine in NATO would be symbolic and strategic - and it would also have US F-22s flying joint border patrols on Russians border with the Ukrainians. That would put some steel into the backbones of the former soviet client states.
Remember the Sudetenland, and how the Nazi Germans started? It woudl have been easy to stip them then, and at the rhineland reoccupation. But the world sat and did nothing and paid the price.
Are we to sit on our hands and watch the Russians, under a gangster, reassemble their empire by intimidation and force? Its time for us to draw the line now, while we still can.
Don't you also think that this was a very well planned preemptive "shot across the bow" to our plans to install SDI intercept technology in Lithuania or other ex-Soviet Bloc countries in Eastern Europe. Look at the Ruskies in Cuba and Bear flights around Alaska. All of this seems to me to be pushing the envelope on the part of the Russians. Putin needs some kind of shot across his bow.
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
08/11/2008 4:21 Comments ||
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#3
He's trying to reform the Soviet Empire, you need a boogey-man to do that. And it's us.
#4
One of the key reasons FOR the ukraine into NATO move would be to embarass Putin at home, to take the sheen off his 'victory' in Georgia, if that occurs.
Im not willing to write off Georgia just yet, though Im not sure what we can do.
#5
How big is the red army? If every ex satellite state declared war on Russia right now would they have a chance? Maybe there is a way to break the bear.
#6
agree schwartz, the old bear included easter europe and the caucasus states, it does not now, and the new russia has an identity problem.
there is wide spread corruption in the russian military, the lowest ranking serve for vodka rations.....these guys have no real foundation, the oil was found and delivered huge largesse, not to the country but to the few oligarchs in charge.russia isnt all it thinks it is.
#7
One problem with inviting Ukraine into NATO is that the Ukrainians, a fair number of them, might want want to join. A goodly part of the Ukrainians are sympathetic to Russian, if not outright ethnic Russians. Ukraine has had a substantial east-west split for the past decade.
So a frightening scenario: (A) we invite Ukraine into NATO (B) Russian ethnics and ex-commies protest and take to the streets (C) Russia moves to protect their interests by moving into Ukraine (D) The West does ... ?
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/11/2008 16:20 Comments ||
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#8
The Russians might go into Ukraine anyway, as they are currently doing in Georgia. Its fairly clear that keeping a country OUT of NATO doesnt prevent russian intervention.
We would have to move fairly quickly in extending security guarantees to the Ukraine. And yes, it might mean a smaller, more homogeneous Ukraine. What is the alternative now? Making it abundantly clear that any FSU country not yet in NATO is fair game? Effectively promising Russia a free hand in Ukraine, and in Azerbaijan?
BTW, would we even come to the aid of the baltics, who ARE Nato members? Where does the retreat end?
CUBA has backed Russia in its conflict with Georgia, saying Russia's demand for Georgia's full pullout from South Ossetia before agreeing to a ceasefire was "just".
"The demand for prior withdrawal of the invaders is just, and our government supports it,'' Cuban President Raul Castro said in a written statement.
Mr Castro said Russian troops had been deployed in South Ossetia legally as a peacekeeping force.
"Therefore, it is false to assert that Georgia is now defending its national sovereignty,'' he said.
Russia sent its tanks and troops to pro-Moscow South Ossetia on Friday in response to pro-Western Georgia's military offensive to take back the province, which broke away in the early 1990s after a separatist war.
#2
What doses he say to the bombing of civilians outside SO? Hmm you little lapdog Fidel? AN asskisser to the end, trying to beg crumbs form his masters. Pathetic.
#9
We should issue a UN statement condemning Russia for it's unprovoked attack on it's tiny neighbor and state that we would never do that....first.
Then attack, overwhelm, and create a democracy in Cuba.
Georgia withdrew its forces from breakaway South Ossetia region on Sunday after three days of fighting but Russia has sent more troops into the enclave, the Georgian government said, amid conflicting reports on a deal between the two warring nations to create "humanitarian corridors" to evacuate refugees.
The pull-out announcement followed a Georgian push to take control of the pro-Moscow enclave from separatists which prompted Russia to pour troops into South Ossetia and launch air strikes inside Georgia.
"They have been withdrawn, completely," Georgian interior ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili told Reuters.
Russian officials said the death toll in fighting that began on Thursday stood at 2,000. Georgia said on Friday that it had lost up to 300 people killed, mainly civilians.
On Sunday, a Georgian convoy of troops and artillery withdrew from South Ossetia through the village of Ergneti, just inside Georgian-controlled territory south of the separatist capital Tskhinvali.
Meanwhile, RIA Novosti news agency reported Sunday that Russia and Georgia have agreed to open two humanitarian corridors for the evacuation of wounded people and refugees from fighting in South Ossetia.
Georgia, however, denied the report. "It's not true," said Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili.
The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe said earlier it was working on creating conditions for the evacuation of refugees from the region after Georgia said it was withdrawing its forces.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
If true, and the Russians have not stopped bombing (civilians) in Georgia proper, then they must be sanctioned. Kick them out of the G-8.
The Bush administration yesterday decried Russia's use of strategic bombers and ballistic missiles in Georgia as a "dangerous escalation" of the hostilities there, but said it will not immediately send an envoy to help mediate the crisis. "It's hard for us to understand what the Russian plan is," said a senior U.S. official, who briefed reporters on the condition of anonymity. "People can argue back and forth over who shot first," but the Russian response is "far disproportionate to whatever threat" it may have perceived in the separatist Georgian region of South Ossetia.
With residents of the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, in a "panic" amid fears that the city will be bombed, the U.S. Embassy there has been placed on "authorized departure" status, meaning that dependents can leave at U.S. expense, the official said in a conference call.
The Bush administration is also arranging to transport as many as 2,000 Georgian troops back home from Iraq. Georgian forces make up the third-largest contingent in the multinational force in Iraq, after the United States and Britain. "If [Georgian officials] request it, we will facilitate [the transfer] within a relatively short amount of time" with commercial or U.S. military aircraft, the official said. "We have communicated with the Russians what our obligations are" to Georgia.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
What was good for a Serbian goose is good for a Georgian gander as well.
Anybody remembers Belgrade 1999,eh?
Posted by: Matt K. ||
08/11/2008 1:23 Comments ||
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#2
Fly their troops who were helping us in Iraq back in US transports under US escort.
And the Balkans are not comparable to that degree.
This was a setup by the Russians. They even had the hackers and protesters banners ready.
#3
Matt K. - You buy the direct analogy to the balkans? How many separatist movements exist around the USSR? Does Putin really want to play this game? Does China? Does Turkey?
#4
I'm not seeing a sensible endgame here. Russia obviously knew that that taking the area would be relatively easy, but they also have to know that it's going to be a continual headache and yet another issue for the west to beat them over the head with. There must be another shoe with some altitude yet.
Posted by: Mike N. ||
08/11/2008 2:47 Comments ||
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#5
It may even be Russa intends to crush Georgia militarily and believes it will not incur any consequences. The euros, notably Germany, has shown that they generally fold at the slightest hint of a threat, and have yet to show the guts to act in a concerted manner against Russia's prvocation with anything other than diplomatic doublespeak and inaction.
Again, the Sudetenland anschluss and the reoccupaton of the Ruhr by Hitler and the Nazis comes to mind.
#6
It appears at present that Russia is moving to isolate Tbilisi from Western Georgia, where they are amassing a large troop build-up. They are already advancing on and shelling Gori, cutting the East-West corridor. If they dislodge Georgian forces in Kodori, then they will spearhead to Zugdidi, the first major city outside Abkhazia. The goal right now is probably a reduction of Georgias military capabilites, through force, to an acceptable level which will not be able to challenge the large military presences Russia will leave behind under the auspices of "peacekeeping forces". An internally unstable Georgia will no longer be a MEP candidate and Russia can then focus on siezing the Government of a wekeend Georgian state through a proxy presidential candidate. Thereby monopilizing the North-South Energy corridor and all East-West Energy transit. As Lavrov said "Saakashvili's gotta go".
#7
MK: What was good for a Serbian goose is good for a Georgian gander as well.
Anybody remembers Belgrade 1999,eh?
You mean the US forced the Serbs to break up Yugoslavia so that the pieces could become American territory? Kind of like the way the Russians are hacking off chunks of Georgian territory to annex to Russia? That's an excellent analogy. (Although it has to be said that I had no idea Slovenes, Croats, Bosnians, Kosovars, Montenegrins and Macedonians held US passports).
#8
We spent months trying to get a deal with Serbia. Georgia has been much more compromising than Serbia ever was, and its Russia that rejected neutral peacekeepers. This is NOT at all comparable to the Kosovo situation.
Also that theres NO evidence of an ethnic cleansing campaign by the georgians. This is the big lie, repeat enough times till people give it some credence.
(Xinhua) -- Russia is planning to send its warships towards Georgia's rebel Abkhazia region, local mass media quoted an unidentified U.S. State Department official as reporting on Saturday. "We have been notified that Russia has plans to move elements of its Black Sea fleet to Abkhazia, to Ochamchira, ostensibly to protect their civilians ... a couple of cruisers, or large scale naval vessels," the official said.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
"Protect" bullshit,. Its more pressure on the Georgians. THey are trying to collapse a democratically elected government that is friendly to the west, and that has refused to bow to Putin's pressure.
#2
I'm really disappointed at how the opening game has played out in Georgia. The State Dept. had just alluded that Georgia can't expect much more than rhetorical support at the UN from us. We have blown a lot of street creds in Eastern Europe this week.
TBILISI, Georgia Russia expanded its attacks on Georgia on Sunday, moving tanks and troops through the separatist enclave of South Ossetia and advancing toward the city of Gori in central Georgia, in its first direct assault on a Georgian city with ground forces after three days of heavy fighting, Georgian officials said.
The maneuver along with aerial bombing of the Georgian capital, Tbilisi suggested that Russias aims in the conflict had gone beyond securing the pro-Russian enclaves of South Ossetia and Abkhazia to weakening the armed forces of Georgia, a former Soviet republic and an ally of the United States whose Western leanings have long irritated the Kremlin.
Russias moves, which came after Georgia offered a cease-fire and pulled its troops out of South Ossetia, sparked widespread international alarm and anger and set the stage for an intense diplomatic confrontation with the United States.
Two senior Western officials said that it was unclear whether Russia intended a full invasion of Georgia, but that its aims could go as far as destroying its armed forces or overthrowing Georgias pro-Western president, Mikheil Saakashvili.
They seem to have gone beyond the logical stopping point, one senior Western diplomat said.
The escalation of fighting between Russia and the former Soviet republic raised tensions between Russia and its former cold-war foes to their highest level in decades. President Bush has promoted Georgia as a bastion of democracy, helped strengthen its military and urged that NATO admit the country to membership. Georgia serves as a major conduit for oil flowing from Russia and Central Asia to the West.
But Russia, emboldened by windfall profits from oil exports, is demonstrating a resolve to reassert its dominance in a region it has always considered its near abroad.
The military action, which has involved air, naval and missile attacks, marks the largest engagement by Russian forces outside its borders since the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Russia also escalated its assault Sunday despite strong diplomatic warnings from President Bush and European leaders, underscoring the limits of Western influence over Russia at a time when Western Europe depends heavily on Russia for natural gas and the United States needs Moscows cooperation if it has any hope of curtailing what it sees as a nuclear weapons threat from Iran.
Russian officials say Georgia provoked the assault by attacking South Ossetia last week, causing heavy civilian casualties. But Western diplomats and military officials said they worried that Russias decision to extend the fighting and to open a second front in Abkhazia indicated that it had sought to use a relatively low-level conflict in a conflict-prone part of the Caucasus region to extend its influence over a much broader area.
There was heavy fighting Sunday on two fronts. Russian artillery shells slammed the city of Gori, a major military installation and transportation hub in Georgia. In the separatist region of Abkhazia, Russian paratroopers and their Abkhaz allies battled Georgian special forces and tried to cross the boundary into undisputed Georgian territory, Georgian officials said.
Russia bombarded Tbilisis international airport shortly before Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner of France, who was sent by the European Union to attempt a mediation, was due to land. It twice bombed a factory in the capital. Russias Black Sea Fleet patrolled the coast of Abkhazia, and its Ministry of Defense said Russian warships had sunk a Georgian gunboat that fired on them.
The Kremlin declined to say whether its troops had entered Georgia proper but said all its actions were intended to strike at Georgian military forces that had fired on its peacekeeping troops in South Ossetia. Russia denied any intention of occupying Georgia.
We have enough territory to think of, a Kremlin spokesman, Aleksei Pavlov, said. We dont need Georgia.
The Bush administration said Sunday that it would seek a resolution from the United Nations Security Council condemning Russian military actions in Georgia.
And in a heated exchange with his Russian counterpart at the United Nations, Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad of the United States accused the Kremlin of seeking to oust Mr. Saakashvili.
He charged that Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov had said as much during a telephone conversation with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Sunday morning.
In that conversation, Foreign Minister Lavrov told U.S. Secretary of State Rice that the democratically elected president of Georgia must go, Mr. Khalilzad said. I quote again: Saakashvili must go. :
Mr. Khalilzad said the comment was completely unacceptable.
In Washington, American officials reacted with deepening alarm. They said that Georgian troops had tried to disengage but that the Russians had not allowed them to.
The Georgians told them, Were done. Let us withdraw, one American military official said. But the Russians are not letting them withdraw. They are pursuing them, and people are seeing this.
The official added: The Russians have gained all of their military objectives. This is not about military objectives. This is about a political objective removing a thorn in their side.
Tensions with Mr. Saakashvili escalated when he made a centerpiece of his presidency the reunification of Georgia with Abkhazia and South Ossetia, pro-Russian regions that won de facto autonomy in fighting in the early 1990s after the Soviet Union fell apart.
Russia has issued passports to many residents in the territories and has stationed peacekeeping troops in them. Heavy fighting broke out last week in South Ossetia when Georgian troops tried to take its capital in what now appears to have been a major miscalculation.
Russian officials say that up to 2,000 people have been killed in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, as Georgia pounded the city with missiles, and that 30,000 have fled the territory into Russia. Refugees arriving in southern Russia reported devastation in Tskhinvali.
Russia says it is acting to protect residents there and to punish Georgia for the assault, which Georgia says was to protect Georgian enclaves in the territory from attack and to push out illegally deployed Russian troops.
But Georgian officials expressed alarm on Sunday that Russia might be aiming to take Gori, about a 45-minute drive south from Tskhinvali. Gori, a major staging area for the Georgian military, sits in a valley that is the main route connecting the east and west halves of Georgia.
Shota Utiashvili, an official of the Georgian Interior Ministry, said the Russians had moved tanks and troops to within a few kilometers of Gori and were trying to cut the country in half.
He said that if they tried to occupy Georgia, there will probably be guerilla warfare all over the country.
Mr. Utiashvili said: We need large supplies of humanitarian aid, because we have thousands of wounded. And weapons. We need weapons. We are not going to surrender. We will take this to the end.
Artillery and tank fire could be heard from the outskirts of Gori on Sunday evening. Later, during a pause in the fighting, Georgian military personnel appeared to be flowing into the city. Georgian officials said they would defend it.
Ambulances with flashing red and blue lights roared back and forth on the highway between Gori and Tbilisi, along with military troop transports and families fleeing from Gori in cars and donkey carts.
The whole family is running away. There is nowhere for us to take shelter, said Ketevan Sunabali, 40, who had left home in a pair of red Winnie the Pooh slippers. She said she had heard the bombs exploding at the outskirts of the village and seen the smoke and just jumped in the car with her husband, without stopping to take any of her belongings.
I had a home. I had a father, said Gogita Kazahashvili, 29. My father died today from the bombing. Ive seen with my own eyes. My house was destroyed. I buried my father myself, by where the house was.
A refugee who said he was fleeing from Kakhvi, which he described as a Georgian-controlled enclave squeezed between parts of South Ossetia along the winding border, said Russian forces were in the village.
He said Russian soldiers had come to his house, and he had run away. Along the road, refugees carried their possessions in wheelbarrows and plastic bags.
A New York Times reporter saw artillery being fired from Russian-controlled areas into Georgian territory near the villages of Eredvy and Prisi, about two miles from Tskhinvali. Grassy fields were burning in the villages and clouds of dust rose with the impact of the shells.
Even one close Russian ally expressed alarm about the possibility of Russian troops moving on Gori and clashing with Georgians on unchallenged Georgian territory.
If it happened, then its a big mess, its a big problem, because it is direct confrontation, said Maksim K. Gvindzhiya, deputy foreign affairs minister for the de facto government of Abkhazia. Its going out of the conflict zone.
Fighting escalated in Abkhazia as well, Mr. Gvindzhiya and Georgian officials said.
Russia doubled the number of its troops in Abkhazia to about 6,000 early Sunday, landing paratroopers at an airport in Sukhumi on the Black Sea coast. There was heavy fighting in the Kodori Gorge, the only area in Abkhazia that Georgia controls, with Russian paratroopers ferried in by helicopter.
In Washington, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice worked through the night Saturday with other Bush administration officials on a Security Council resolution. American diplomats said that they did not want an actual Security Council vote on the resolution until Tuesday or so, the better to draw out the debate and publicly shame the Russian government. While the resolution will carry no punitive weight, and is almost sure to be vetoed by Russia, a permanent Council member, the hope is that it could create more pressure for a cease-fire, officials said.
Meanwhile, Georgian and Western diplomatic officials said that Georgia had offered a cease-fire proposal to Russia, though Russian officials did not acknowledge receiving such an offer.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
http://war.georgia.su/
just see it
Posted by: Mike ||
08/11/2008 3:31 Comments ||
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#2
Nice copy and paste job - I must say the US and the UK must have the best spin doctors while we ourselves have done the same and worse. May I suggest you read Die Welle (German paper) that gives a much more honest and deeper understanding.
I could just see how we would react if Mexico rallied its troops at our border and bombed San Diego to reclaim property stolen centuries ago. Or how would we react if China or Russia setup bases in Latin America ? I hate spin doctors all for the sake of oil and the greedy dollar. I thought honesty was Christian value.
Posted by: Max David ||
08/11/2008 3:43 Comments ||
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#3
Our Press (controlled by UPI) would never show these pictures, nevermind making a mention thereof. Thanks Mike.
#1 http://war.georgia.su/
just see it
Posted by Mike 2008-08-11 03:3
Posted by: Max David ||
08/11/2008 3:57 Comments ||
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#6
Do you belive people to be idiots enough to trust that the fire in the 3rd floor apartment of an undestroyed building is a result of aerial bombardment? The photos media shows are fine art but not documentary.
#7
Dear people, Mass-Media deceiving you. Georgia has started bombardment of their own territories and broke their promise. There're 2000 dead civilians in South Ossetia already. Mass-Media hide the whole fact. Scenes that contain military equipment also belong to Georgia.
#8
We are honored by your attempt to sway our opinion, we really are. To think you would log on here just to tell us we are being lied to. How did we ever deserve such a service?
#10
Remember those nominally stark photos of captive, starving Muslims in Bosnia? They were faked. The best known shot was taken outside a clinic, where persons were free to come and go.
I seem to recall when Wesley Clark wanted to attack Russian forces, after they seized a Kosovo Province airport during the Clinton idiocy. We don't need another conflict in support of some trivial cause. Georgian sovereignty over Russian populated areas within an entity created by Stalin (a Georgian) is hardly a sacred cause. I smell Clinton-1999 rhetoric all over again. Who wants a Cold War?
#12
"I seem to recall when Wesley Clark wanted to attack Russian forces, after they seized a Kosovo Province airport during the Clinton idiocy."
One of the main reasons I want him for Obama's VP. There's a man that actually perceived the situation properly.
"Georgian sovereignty over Russian populated areas within an entity created by Stalin (a Georgian) is hardly a sacred cause."
Ossetians and Abkhazians are suddenly supposed to be ethnic Russians? At least the Nazis claimed control over *Germanic* people in Sudetenland -- Russians don't even the common ethnicity to justify their actions: only mere passports that they handed out freely a year or two back.
In this respect their actions are even worse than the Sudetenland situation.
"Who wants a Cold War?"
As opposed to the Hot one currently taking place? As opposed to a new World War for the occupation of Europe, which will be what'll happen if we allow Russia free rein (same as what happened when Germany was not opposed in Sudetenland)? I'll take the Cold one, thank you.
#18
Remember who made the first shot: GEORGIA! They've been equiping their troops for the last 4 years and planned this horrific attack on Ossetian civilians. As a result of their bombing Tskhinvali for 2 days, the whole city has been destroyed and more than 2,000 civilians have died.
#19
Mitch H wrote "the Russians have taken to labeling all of their occupation troops "peacekeepers". Wish we'd thought of it." You have forgottent that you had invented it actially - your "peacekeepers" are in Iraq and Afghanistan.
#23
Musta cut close to home with that one, Nimble Spemble.
Posted by: Rob Crawford ||
08/11/2008 9:13 Comments ||
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#24
People of the world, the information, provided by the international mass media is no true. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia!
07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia attacked South Ossetia, the troops rolled in.
At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered the city of Tskhinvali, the capital of the South Ossetian Republic.
Whole city was shelling by heavy artillery all day long, there were fights with use of tanks and heavy munition, which were used against both ossetic militia and non-combatants.
More than 2000 civillians were killed during Georgian attack.
Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening of 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and peace conduction in republic and protection of Russian citizens, living on territory of South Ossetia (approx. 80% of South Ossetian population).
Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on the opening day of 2008 Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism.
Posted by: Maria ||
08/11/2008 9:32 Comments ||
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#25
Warum empfehlen Sie, dass wir die Deutsche Welle sollen lesen? Die is bestimmt eine Zeitung fuer Touristen und solche Nichtskoenneren. Wirklich muss Mann an die alle Sockpuppets hier sagen, "Nichts zu danken!"
Sie muessen mein Deutchkenntniss vergeben -- es ist seit dreizehn Jahre, dass wir in Deutschland gewohnnt haben.
#26
"Remember who made the first shot: GEORGIA! They've been equiping their troops for the last 4 years and planned this horrific attack on Ossetian civilians. As a result of their bombing Tskhinvali for 2 days, the whole city has been destroyed and more than 2,000 civilians have died. "
its not at all clear who fired the first shot. There has been increasing activity by S Ossetian militants in the last couple of days, buildup of Russian troops on the border, and, per the Georgians, the Russians crossed the border first. And Russia has opposed having a neutral UN peacekeeping force.
there are also reports (from ethnic georgians fleeing S Ossetia) that the Ossetians were departing BEFORE the fighting started.
Anyway, the fact that civilians die when a city is attacked is NOT ipso fact a war crime justifying foreign intervention. If it were, NATO would have been entitled to enter the Bosnian conflict several years BEFORE Srebinica. And they would have been entitled to enter the Chechen conflict, where the evidece for war crimes was much more substantial than here.
Anyway, the Georgians have withdrawn from S Ossetia, and yet Russian bombing goes on. Also intervention in Abzakzia.
The russian lies are becoming more and more blatant, and when they are called all we hear is increasingly enraged references to Yugo, Iraq, etc (BTW, we do NOT call our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan peacekeepers)
#29
Russia has clearly had its army, navy, and air force ready for this action for months, if not years. Even a little suburban housewife like me can see as much -- it takes months to get tanks, ships, men and ordnance lined up on a border ready to roll... and that's for a country with a good logistics organization. Russia's logistics organization is not good enough to keep its troops fed, clothed and with adequate bullets under normal circumstances; it would not be realistic to expect such a complete change for a situation that is only three days old.
Those of you posting to this site who claim otherwise are either fools or liars. I would not be so rude as to venture an opinion as to which of you fits in which category.
#32
Lie, lie and once again lie. Recognize already, that all of you to spit on a problem of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. To you to spit on the truth, you are ready to listen only to lie which speaks you Ñààêàøâèëè! You did not see eye of people, citizens of South Ossetia which stood at a building of the Government of Russia and with tears asked them to help! It not Russia has attacked Georgia - we lived neighbours so much years and would live 100 more times on so much! It is Georgia headed Ñààêàøâèëè, has begun armed attack to Ossetia!
To me as to the citizen of Russia, is offensive to read that your journalists write. They were not there! Anybody from your country was not there! Georgia wanted the blessing for Southern Îññåòè? The lie, Southern Ossetia more 10 years ago has refused to live under control of Georgia. And now it never will be. We, as citizens of Russia, declare: we do not have purpose of capture of Georgia, we want only that Southern Ossetia and Abkhazia have started to live normally, even as earlier, they are worthy to live independently.
Or all of you think that we wish to grasp a part of Georgia? Delirium if we wanted it are would occur more 10 years ago! You and your government would intercede for the friendly states and republics? We intercede. We want that Georgia has stopped to fire at South Ossetia and Abkhazia, we want that our peacemakers have come back home, and they there perish! Everyone speak that Ñààêàøâèëè has signed documents on cease-fire...
And who then last 4 hours again conducts bombardment of our peacemakers? Who continues to kill the peace population? And you in a rate that already have killed the Georgian armies more than 2 thousand peace inhabitants of Ossetia? " The Georgian officers have shot the pregnant woman ". Here what reportings are removed by our journalists! The Georgian armies tanks press the peace population, kill children, old men... Wish to support further lies for all world community?
Continue to close eyes and trust the liar. Secret becomes obvious. Whether can forgive in couple of years to itself your indifference and blindness... Citizens of Georgia already for a long time spit on the president and sneer at it.
Posted by: Julia (Russia) ||
08/11/2008 10:30 Comments ||
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#33
Julia , you can hardly call the 58th Army "peacekeepers" - murdering butchers maybe but definatley not peacekeepers . Vladimir Shamanov and Chechyna , remember that ?
Gosh the Russians have been busy on every blog I have visited - even the BBC Have Your Say forum (much as I loathe it) has got the biggest Moderation queue in its history !
#35
And to you to remind Kosovo? Serbia? Iraq? You there that did? For the truth struggled? To itself even do not say lies. And the Chechen Republic.... And ask the Chechen Republic and its population - whether it is bad it now is? The country puts ours in it of money, opens manufacture, the Chechen Republic receives from us grants and much others ïðèâåëåãèé. We have the mandate and the right given by NATO, to act as peacemakers in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. We more than 10 years were there peacemakers, and êîíôëèòîâ was not.
While your selling Ñààêàøâèëè has not decided to attach force these republics to the territory in haste to receive the invitation in NATO.
Posted by: Julia (Russia) ||
08/11/2008 10:47 Comments ||
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#36
Thanks big for a greeting
Posted by: Julia (Russia) ||
08/11/2008 10:49 Comments ||
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#37
Dear Russians posting here.. Should the US use similar logic and remove the Castro's?
Maybe Chavez?
you know.. that "tit-for-tat" thing?
#39
3dc, You suggest the Russian peacemakers to cut out all Georgia?! It it is not necessary for us, we want that Georgia has stopped military actions against Ossetia, Abkhazia and our peacemakers. Everything, that is done now by peacemakers - so it is done under the mandate, done with a view of self-defense and defense of fraternal people! You would began to sit and be silent, if your former "friend-neighbour" began to attack your other "friend-neighbour" who is under your protection? The public in down would pound you after such,
Posted by: Julia (Russia) ||
08/11/2008 10:56 Comments ||
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#40
Lie, lie and once again lie. Recognize already, that all of you to spit on a problem of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. To you to spit on the truth, you are ready to listen only to lie which speaks you Ñààêàøâèëè! You did not see eye of people, citizens of South Ossetia which stood at a building of the Government of Russia and with tears asked them to help!
And the people of Georgia ask us for help.
It not Russia has attacked Georgia - we lived neighbours so much years and would live 100 more times on so much!
when they part of the USSR. And then, when they had a govt that deferred to russia, and did not try to join the EU or NATO or regain their lost territories. But since they have had a govt that defied Russia, Russia has tried to crush them.
It is Georgia headed Ñààêàøâèëè, has begun armed attack to Ossetia!
An attack on their own sovereign territory. Whats that we hear about "soveriegn democracy"?
To me as to the citizen of Russia, is offensive to read that your journalists write. They were not there! Anybody from your country was not there!
Indeed, and there were no neutral peacekeepers in S Ossetia, because Russia wouldnt allow them.
Georgia wanted the blessing for Southern Îññåòè? The lie, Southern Ossetia more 10 years ago has refused to live under control of Georgia. And now it never will be. We, as citizens of Russia, declare: we do not have purpose of capture of Georgia, we want only that Southern Ossetia and Abkhazia have started to live normally, even as earlier, they are worthy to live independently.
They are within the internationally recognized borders of Georgia, and have no more right to independence than Chechnya, or for that matter, Taiwan or Tibet.
Or all of you think that we wish to grasp a part of Georgia? Delirium if we wanted it are would occur more 10 years ago!
NO, you werent strong enough then, and besides you had a deferential Georgian govt then.
You and your government would intercede for the friendly states and republics? We intercede. We want that Georgia has stopped to fire at South Ossetia and Abkhazia,
Why should they have to leave their own sov territory? And in any case, they HAVE withdrawn from S ossetia. Yet russians have not. indeed russians are moving beyond into the rest of Georgia.
we want that our peacemakers have come back home, and they there perish! Everyone speak that Ñààêàøâèëè has signed documents on cease-fire...
And who then last 4 hours again conducts bombardment of our peacemakers?
They are responding to Russian attacks. Also why doesnt russia withdraw ITS forces from the combat zone. And why not allow international observers in.?
Who continues to kill the peace population?
Russia.
And you in a rate that already have killed the Georgian armies more than 2 thousand peace inhabitants of Ossetia? "
A. The number is unconfirmed by outsiders. B. there is no evidence, apart from accusations by Russia and members of the S Ossetian govt, that Georgians did that deliberately.
The Georgian officers have shot the pregnant woman ". Here what reportings are removed by our journalists! The Georgian armies tanks press the peace population, kill children, old men.
Russia presents no evidence, despite vetoing UN action on Kosovo despite much greater evidencce. Also Russia vetos action on Darfur, on Burman, on Zimbabwe. Your claim to care about human rights rings hollow.
.. Wish to support further lies for all world community?
Continue to close eyes and trust the liar. Secret becomes obvious.
The liar - mean Putin?
Whether can forgive in couple of years to itself your indifference and blindness...
The question is whether we can forgive you. And whether the Georgians will forgive us if we dont help them.
Citizens of Georgia already for a long time spit on the president and sneer at it.
#41
russia has no mandate to do what it is now doing. Russian peacekeepers have no right to stay on Georgian soil against the will of the govt of Georgia. They are clearly not neutral between the parties, and are not peacekeepers. Russia has rejected their replacement by neutral peacekeepers.
#42
"the Chechen Republic receives from us grants and much others"
I am struck by the parallels between this Russian logic and China's claims to Tibet: "we built them nice roads (that our army uses), so they should be glad to be Chinese".
Russia is taking lessons out of the German playbooks from the 1930s. This will not end well.
#43
Like it or not - Saakashwili is finished and he is pretty well aware of that.
Surprise, surprise - his wife, a certain Sandra Rulofs already packed her coffers and left for ... USA. Somehow, I do not recall Miloshevic's wife leaving Yugoslavia in 1999.
PS. Greetings for Julia - keep going...
Posted by: Matt K. ||
08/11/2008 11:19 Comments ||
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#44
superstitiousGalitizianer, We do not require your pardon, our conscience is pure. And you are impregnated by that disinformation that pours into your ears of mass-media and Ñààêàøâèëè. And you help Georgia? You have simply thrown on an arbitrariness of destiny of the one who to you was on sale. And is not present, you have well supplied Georgia with the weapon.
But you have thrown not only it, you have thrown the peace population of Georgia, Abkhazia and Ossetia. Instead of understanding the information, that to you gives Ñààêàøâèëè and to help to stop all this bloodshed, you sit and only do proud persons, that other people requires you. Think that want, only in Russia not only in the Government force how think - if the Russian citizens will declare economic boycott to some countries (including Georgia) as the situation will turn?
Or have forgotten as your president asked from us money (ñòàáôîíä). And give all of us our money from your economy we shall pull out? A collapse be not afraid of economy? Do not wish to understand where the truth - wait for consequences. Russia - not that weak country which you have remembered it in the childhood.
Posted by: Julia (Russia) ||
08/11/2008 11:23 Comments ||
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#45
He is NOT finished, and if he were, you guys wouldnt be coming here in the attempt to dissuade us from supporting him.
Slobos wife, didnt leave, she had no reason to - she was in no danger. In Georgia, a fall of the democratic regime could well mean the rise of the kind of regime that arrests and kills all associated with the previous regime.
But thanks for again trying to slip in a nonsensical comparison between Georgia and Serbia.
#46
Julia dear, you want to be a bit more careful. There are some Rantburgers whose Russian is a good deal better than your English. Not I, sadly; after the beginning Russian class at my university was cancelled twice for lack of students, I gave up and took Hebrew.
Not to mention those here who've made a study of Russia's historic interactions with its Near Abroad, and those who have a considerable interest in the history and abilities of Russia's armed forces.
Clearly you are passionate about your country. But if you wish to persuade, you must give us facts and references so that people here can check their personal libraries. It would be a good idea to also give a bit of your background, so we can judge your level of expertise. Think of this as a discussion at the university, where some of those you argue against have PhDs in the subject.
To start the ball rolling: I am a housewife who lives at the outskirts of a city in the American Midwest. My father is a retired professor of biochemistry who was born in Riga. My husband works for a large American company, which has sent him all over the world, including Russia and Eastern Europe, Asia, the Middle East, North Africa and the Spanish-speaking Americas. I call myself "trailing wife" because shortly after my first daughter was born, my husband was transferred to Germany, where we lived while he helped establish his company in Eastern Europe and Russia. My children sang Czech nursery rhymes with a Brno accent, German ones with a Hessian one, and spoke a mixture of British and American English. Your turn, my dear.
#47
superstitiousGalitizianer, We do not require your pardon, our conscience is pure.
we do not require yours. You may not want to be isolated though. This isnt 1979.
And you are impregnated by that disinformation that pours into your ears of mass-media and Ñààêàøâèëè.
I have access to blogs and pundits sympathetic to Russia. Unlike in Russia, in the US owners of TV networks arent routinely imprisoned.
And you help Georgia? You have simply thrown on an arbitrariness of destiny of the one who to you was on sale.
That does not make sense in English.
And is not present, you have well supplied Georgia with the weapon.
Yes, as you have supplied Iran, Syria, Venezuala and many other countries with weapons. Georgia is a sovereign nation, and has teh RIGHT to receieve weapons from others.
But you have thrown not only it, you have thrown the peace population of Georgia, Abkhazia and Ossetia.
Again, your english is failing you.
Instead of understanding the information, that to you gives Ñààêàøâèëè and to help to stop all this bloodshed, you sit and only do proud persons, that other people requires you. Think that want, only in Russia not only in the Government force how think - if the Russian citizens will declare economic boycott to some countries (including Georgia) as the situation will turn?
Clearly the govt was behind the boycott of Georgian goods, and uses the state controlled TV to press for its views.
Or have forgotten as your president asked from us money (ñòàaôîíä). And give all of us our money from your economy we shall pull out?
We never asked Russia for money, other than repayment of debts. You guys have another big lie, that we somehow stole your economy.
#48
Do not wish to understand where the truth - wait for consequences. Russia - not that weak country which you have remembered it in the childhood.
It was not weak in MY childhood. When I was 8 they invaded Czechoslovakia. When I was 16 they crushed Poland, and they did so again when I was 20. They ruled an empire by force of arms, and they created war and violence around the globe.
When I was a young adult it LOOKED like they had changed their ways, but the events of the past week make it look like they have not.
#49
trailing wife, Thanks big for your opinion. I can write and in Russian, but I think here it very few people will read through, and in occasion of my level of knowledge of English - I write as me conveniently, I do not aspire behind perfection in knowledge of English - my native language Russian, and I am obliged to know it in perfection. Want more in detail - my family absolutely usual, I - have small family business, my husband the militarian, and I consider, that to me under the status to be it is necessary ïàòðèîòêîé and the devoted Russia.
Yes, for me it is important, that these events have ended as soon as possible, but in a greater degree I am am offended by that the information on events occuring is very strongly deformed for such countries as England, Staffs, Germany and so on. I am am offended by that Ñààêàøâèëè speaks our country one, to you speaks another, all over again does one, in two hours changes the actions on opposite. I - for truthfulness in the information!
It is a little later if there is your desire îçíàêîìèòüñÿ-I I shall result here texts of clauses about those actions that now makes Ñààêàøâèëè, can so will see they are how much inconsistent and false.
Posted by: Julia (Russia) ||
08/11/2008 11:42 Comments ||
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#50
superstitiousGalitizianer, Îê if you so have deeply gone to history and the past - and what you can tell in protection of the country in occasion of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? And yes, do not forget to specify, what exactly you have won Hitler (all time I forget what exactly such history put in heads to the American schoolboys).:))))))))))))))))))))))
Posted by: Julia (Russia) ||
08/11/2008 11:46 Comments ||
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#51
Good luck with that, TW! Are you expecting an honest resume from a KGB hack with third-tier English skills?
#53
Yes yes, also has absolutely forgotten about a roller of interrogation where citizens of Staffs interrogated on different themes and they could not answer, where there is Cuba, and how many the parties at a triangle, and what creed at Buddhist monks.:)))))))))))) Yes yes, also has absolutely forgotten about a roller of interrogation where citizens of Staffs interrogated on different themes and they could not answer, where there is Cuba, and how many the parties at a triangle, and what creed at Buddhist monks.:))))))))))))
Posted by: Julia (Russia) ||
08/11/2008 11:49 Comments ||
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#54
Julia, I, for one, am not interested in the lies Putin's Puppets are feeding the Russian people.
If this were really about South Ossetia alone, then there'd be no need to go farther than its borders; instead, Russian troops are assaulting Gori. If this were really about South Ossetia, then there'd be no need to blockade Georgia; instead, the Black Sea fleet has sortied and already sank Georgian ships attempting to keep the sea lanes open.
If this were truly about South Ossetia, then upon taking control of the territory and receiving a Georgian offer for a cease-fire, Russia would have accepted it. Then there would have been time to bring in neutral observers to document any atrocities. Instead, Russia keeps its troops moving forward, all the while feeding its gullible public a steady diet of Pravda.
Posted by: Rob Crawford ||
08/11/2008 11:49 Comments ||
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#55
Stop bluffing and making stories here, Galitizianer.
What are you talking about - two Soviet attacks on Poland within four years? When? In 1976 (1968 + 8) and 1980 (1968 + 12)?
You can feed this steemy HS to your marines...
Posted by: Matt K. ||
08/11/2008 11:51 Comments ||
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#56
Yeah Julia - we're dummies, but just remember this : Al Gore invented the internets.
#57
yes, in 1976 Polish rebels were suppressed by the KGB backed govt of Poland, and Solidarnosck was suppressed in 1980. In neither case would the result have been what it was in the absense of the Soviet presence.
#58
Îê if you so have deeply gone to history and the past - and what you can tell in protection of the country in occasion of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? And yes, do not forget to specify, what exactly you have won Hitler (all time I forget what exactly such history put in heads to the American schoolboys).:))))))))))))))))))))))
Your "english" is not comprehensible. I cannot respond until you use language that is good english. Please spend more time learning english before you try to propagandize.
#59
Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Oh yes, Julia, I remember WWII history. Do you remember Russian feelings when the Germans were marching toward Stalingrad and Moscow in WWII? Well that's how they're feeling in Georgia right now, except that they have almost no capability to resist.
#60
You do not understand one all - Ossetia, Abkhazia and Georgia is Caucasus, and there nobody cancelled blood feud. And now Ossetia and Abkhazia - never will find reconciliation with Georgia. Anybody cannot reconcile it, and especially not Staffs. That them to hold even in a neutrality - it is necessary to live here, to know history on 500 years ago. And to anybody it will not manage to be made of your countries. Here all of you have equally sufferred defeat - you will be compelled to recognize independence of Ossetia and Abkhazia now. Otherwise the Georgian armies should kill all population of these republics, and it already " ethnic cleaning ". Only by then the Russian armies there any more will not be, and the responsibility will lay down on NATO and you:))))))))))
And voluntary armies of the Chechen Republic which you so óñèëåííî try to shame all of us time, already join protection of Ossetia and Abkhazia of Ingushetia, Northern Ossetia and other Caucasian people:))) whether your Georgia SUCH BLOOD FEUD Will sustain:))))
Posted by: Julia (Russia) ||
08/11/2008 12:05 Comments ||
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#61
I guess the war is almost over - Russian troops have just taken SENAKI, a major military base and transportation hub in western Georgia. The major Georgian port POTI is cut off from the rest of the rump statelet.
No more arms shipments from Israel, no more transit of oil.
Posted by: Matt K. ||
08/11/2008 12:12 Comments ||
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#62
"mission accomplished, major combat operations complete"
Radom & Ursus riots in June1976 and Solidarnosc (not Solidarnosck) in December 1981(not 1980) were finished off with Polish communists' hands alone. No Soviet troops were involved it it though, I honestly admit, there was such a risk in 1981.
An advise for an advise. You have sent our Julia to her English textbooks and you take your history lessons - it's about time.
Posted by: Matt K. ||
08/11/2008 12:24 Comments ||
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#64
We're in big trouble if the russians deploy the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator.
Posted by: Julia (Russia) ||
08/11/2008 12:34 Comments ||
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#68
Julia dear, you are not the first poster here to whom English is a second (or third, or more) language. We are patient, as long as your thinking is logical, and your knowledge earns our respect.
I can answer the question about Hitler for you. My mother was born in Germany in 1926, and spent her youth in Europe under the Nazi regime there and in the Netherlands. As a teenager she was a member of the Dutch Underground (like Tito's Partizans), and her father forged documents to help the fight against the Nazis. The grandfather of the best friend of my younger daughter was a pilot, first for the Polish air force fighting against the Soviet invasion, then for the British after the Soviets murdered all the Polish officers in the forest of Katyn including his own father. My father was a translator for the British army in Persia on the Russian border, helping coordinate the Allies' advances against the German heartland.
So I know more than was taught in American school books, and no doubt more than was taught in Russian school books. I heard the stories of those who were there. They tell of the pact between Hitler and Stalin to divide Poland between them, then of Hitler betraying that pact and attacking Russia. They tell of the Nazis murdering the handicapped, the Jews, the Gypsies, the priests and nuns, 11 million in the concentration camps alone. They tell of Stalin sending the kulaks to the gulags in Siberia, the Doctors' Plot purges (äåëî âðà÷åé), of the tens of millions of Soviet citizens Stalin had murdered or who died during the forced collectivizations, even as the Soviet Union fought the war against Nazi Germany.
I know that the Soviet troops fought valiantly even though their government did not geed or clothe them properly, or pay them or give them enough bullets. I know that the Russian troops now suffer from similar neglect. I know that from the west the American and British troops, and the Free French, died by the thousands to push the Nazis back from the countries they had conquered. Western Europe is full of the graves of those who gave their lives to end the evil of national socialism, just as Eastern Europe and Western Russia are full of the graves of those who gave their lives to end both national socialism and international socialism.
But the wars in Europe were only world wars because they were European wars. America gave of her treasure and her sons fighting on the side of good against evil because it was right, not because it was our war. What quarrel do you have with how the Americans fought in Europe? You do not say.
Darrell, one always hopes to raise the discussion to a higher level than, "You ignorant Americans know nothing." Because my knowledge is that of a little American housewife, nothing more. I dare not claim to be an expert, unlike so many here. So perhaps some will learn the reality of what they face, and give over the stereotype.
#69
matt k, the Polish communists were armed trained and backed by the Russians, and the knowledge of that backing by Poles impacted directly on the "correlation of forces". To pretend that the USSR was not responsible for those crackdowns, or that they would have occurred absent the Soviet presence is absurd.
Nice to see that you are not only defending current Russian actions, but the history of the USSR as well. Is there anyone whos a Putin fan who is not also a fan of the pre-Gorby USSR? people in the west trying to understand Putin should reflect on that.
#75
most of the Mingrelians are refugees from Abkhazia, they are essentially a subgroup of ethnic georgians, and they are NOT friendly to the Russians or to the Russians abkhazian pals.
#78
I bet none of you heard about Ossetia a week ago (like about Kosovo a mere ten years ago and about Bosnia twenty years ago).
Get an atlas, start to google - Mingrelia is the ancient Colkhida with her own language, Mingrelian, a western part of today's Georgia.
Thanks for the history lesson, Ivan. If true. Before Pearl Harbor, most Americans couldn't find Guadalcanal, Pelilieu, Port Moresby, Iwo Jima, or Okinawa on a map either. The same for Inchon, Khe Sanh, and Anbar province. If something is worth knowing we'll make the effort to know it.
#79
Oh for goodness' sake, Matt - leave off the annoying and ill-founded Canadian supercilious contempt partially hidden behind the 'eh.
I don't claim to be an expert in the area. I did grow up in a multi-lingual household (including Ukrainian) in which I heard first hand accounts of Stalin, Hitler and events since then in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus. And, as it happens, my relatives include Canadians, none of whom would be foolish or shortsighted enough to ignore what our family learned first hand to indulge your sort of book-based oneupman games.
By the way, at least two of the Rantburg moderators are fluent in Russian and have military backgrounds in the area. You might want to avoid foolish claims you're ill-equipped to back up.
You said "you must be american" and implied that Americans in general were ignorant of history and geography.
I.DO.NOT.LIKE.THAT
I dont think many folks here do. While I cant speak for the mods, I would suggest that slurs against Americans as a group is NOT the way to make yourself appreciated here.
#81
Oh pooh. All my paragraphing got lost. Dear readers, please pretend there are logical paragraph breaks in that last post.
Matt K., will the Russians sustain their naval blockade against Turkish and American ships escorting supplies into Poti for beleaguered civilians? Will Russia attack American fighters escorting the airplanes carrying 2000 Georgian battle-hardened troops and their supplies from Iraq? In other words, will Russia choose to war against the rest of the world just to install a government of an independent ... Mingrelia there?
George W. Bush did not stop the conquest of Afghanistan just because many other countries did not want him to do so. George W. Bush did not stop the conquest of Iraq just because many other countries did not want him to do so. Do you think George W. Bush will allow Russia to destroy Georgia just because you declare the war over?
This is Rantburg, run by a former intelligence analyst, populated by those who have long paid attention to the details of world events. By what authority, what knowledge, do you dare declare that the war is almost over? I am offended that you insult our judgement so, with no evidence whatsoever. You assume that all here are as ignorant as a simple housewife, that none here have access to more information than Russia puts in her propaganda YouTubes and in Pravda and Isvetziya. Julia has gone to her English books. You would be wise to read de Tocqueville's treatise on Americans written 150 years ago before you offend even worse those you would persuade.
#83
trailing wife, " You ignorant Americans know nothing. " - do not take it personally, actually at any nation is weak and strengths. You know about such historical events, as Great Domestic war much enough. I shall not tell, that all data have remained constant - every year something is reconsidered, specified and so on. My grandfather - the participant of this war therefore too I know enough about it firsthand...
In occasion of Stalin, Hitler and so on - will agree, that everywhere and always there is a interest at any government, the greater policy and economy plays the first role always, there is no nation at which would be irreproachable history. I so understand, that you know Russian then read through please the information under these references:
http://news.mail.ru/politics/1938241/
http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/2008/08/09_a_2806163.shtml
http://news.mail.ru/politics/1938674/
http://life.ru/video/4990
http://life.ru/news/30460
t is only small part of that information about which Ñààêàøâèëè óñèëåííî is silent world community. You know a situation on the one hand, we know it on the other hand. Let's our knowledge unite and we shall try to understand, that all òàêè occurs. And I have explained the position: the husband - the militarian, and I will not will should be well informed about events. It at me the even greater patriot, and in occasion of events that occured earlier and now - its statements, than mine are much more logical...
Today there was a reporting, that in Italy and other countries censorship very rigidly works, in Georgia the Russian TV and so on is disconnected. Therefore try to admit for 10 minutes, that all actually not how to you present...
Posted by: Julia (Russia) ||
08/11/2008 13:17 Comments ||
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#84
The question for you, my dear old cold war enemies, is are you ready for a shooting war with the US?
FOr your illegal, and immoral, offensive in to Georgia proper is setting up jsut that. Your troops Soviet style demolition of cities with artillery, deliberate infliction of civlian calsualties in order to terrorize, and your gangster KGB president are setting this up for you.
Occupy Georgia and you will learn some things.
Ever heard of IED? You will.
Ever heard of EFP? You will.
Ever seen your oil and gas pipelines blown up? You will.
I hope your families are ready for huge numbers of body bags. THey will be coming back from Georgia and other outer areas like they did from Afghanistan. We will make sure they do by arming the Georgians and prmoting guerilla warfare.
You sould petition your dictator gangster Putin, the madman who has led your to a position wher he pushes for open warfre with the west, and is rapidly making Russia into a pariah nation.
By the way, we will escort ships there full of aid, we will fly the Goergian troops back in our aircraft escorted by our fighters. We will likely resupply them as well.
Do you have the guts to try to stop us you modern-day Nazis?
#85
Julie, that your husband is a soldier should make you very proud. It is good to defend one's homeland against aggressors. I'm sure there are many things he must not tell you, and things that you know that you may not share with us. So it is, too, with those of us here at Rantburg who are in the military, or have relatives who are.
But look at the sources of the articles at this site, the last few days. We are not getting our news alone from UPI or CNN or Western Europe. Perhaps you, too, will learn something that you did not know.
#86
Schadenfreude. lotp? Not at all - we call it here: "what goes around comes around".
As for Georgia - Saakashwili is gone (like his wife, already in the States), like it or not.
And all this adventure will be a stern warning to others in Europe - do nor count on Americans (Bush alone admits this), they won't die for Danzig or Gori...
Posted by: Matt K. ||
08/11/2008 13:33 Comments ||
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#87
A question for Julia, Matt and others on the, er, Russian side of the discussion - What evidence or reporting is there showing Georgian, let alone other (American/Turk/Azeri/Ukrainian) aggression, or even military operations IN RUSSIA against RUSSIAN forces?
If anything, it seems that to this point, most, if not all, of the "west" has acted to throttle Georgian combat operations.
Note the emphasis on RUSSIA - a side question becomes whether you assert that Ossetia (north or south) is Russian, and if so, why are they separated?
Finally, on the question of "Russian citizens" in Ossetia, there are many "Russian citizens" in Brooklyn - should there be "Russian"/"Soviet"/"Peacekeeping" forces in Brooklyn also?
#88
I do not offend, and it became simple funny, considering what legends go... In occasion of English books - I shall by all means consider, to you I recommend not öèêëèòüñÿ on treatises about Americans - events, that now occur - not in territory of America, and concerns America only indirectly, due to the "promised" support of Georgia, due to supply by armies and the weapon. Look history of the Russian state, look history of Caucasus. Here that now speak about Georgia and Ñààêàøâèëè:
" How many blood the osset still should spill, that the world community has recognized independence of Republic South Ossetia? " - it is spoken in Edward Kokojty's application. In turn, Sergey Bagapsh has noted, that after tragical events in South Ossetia " at anybody in the world should not remain illusions, that Abkhazia and South Ossetia can coexist with Georgia in the uniform state "." After tragical events in Tskhinvali the international community should recognize independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, - - It has added. - actions of Georgia in South Ossetia can be characterized exclusively as a genocide of ossetic people ". And now try to understand - integrity of territory of Georgia any more will not be, and the world there too will not be.
Posted by: Julia (Russia) ||
08/11/2008 13:52 Comments ||
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#89
I know I shouldn't laugh at other's mastery of a foreign language, but some of the posts sound like we've gone through a stargate and are trying to communicate with the indigenous peoples.
Back on topic... if Russia tries to topple Georgia, I hope we're lined up for Afghan1980_2.0
#90
"Schadenfreude. lotp? Not at all - we call it here: "what goes around comes around"."
nothing is coming around. This isnt Kosovo, and it isnt Iraq.
"As for Georgia - Saakashwili is gone (like his wife, already in the States), like it or not."
the operas not over till the fat lady sings, as we say here.
"And all this adventure will be a stern warning to others in Europe - do nor count on Americans (Bush alone admits this), they won't die for Danzig or Gori..."
We died in large numbers to free Europe, and your words are an insult to the American war dead.
#92
Matt K - let me understand somethign about you...
You take great pleasure inseeing a dmeocratically elected western govenrment overthrown militarily and occupied by Russia. You have no empathyfor the thousands of dead cilivians and demolished cities the Russian army had produced deliberately. You seem to make excuses for every overt act of war by Russia - indeed you take glee at the death of free men defending their country against an internal agressor.
#93
Julia - thanks for the reply, but I'm a bit confused - what are the grounds for Russian involvement and how do they apply to the various ethnic groups scattered across the Caucasus - in other words - if South Ossetia should be independent, what about North Ossetia? Should Georgia be independent? Chechnya? Sakhalin? Should Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, Scotland and so on?
Russian force is fairly easy to understand, but I'm trying to discern any policy or logic behind the Russian actions?
Finally, it's interesting that there's been very slight reference to Orwell, and only the normal violations of Godwin's law. I suspect both will appear more prominently shortly.
What concerns me the most is not what's being reported, but what's not being reported.
#96
Julia, how do you justify the acts of war, the naked act of agression, the actions of a thug - Russia - the blockading of the ports, the invasion and occupation of Gori, the bombong of civilians in and around Tblisi?
Russias attacks, invastion and occupation of Goergia outside the disputed areas makes Putin and you liars - if yiou were only there for S.O. you;d have accepted the ceasefire now tat wll the Georgian troops are out of the area.
But Russia has continued with unwarranted agression into Georgia proper.
How do you expect the US and west to not respond?
Your nation is becoming a pariah, led by a gangster, Putin. He is dragging you and your country the same way Hitler did Germany, by appelaing ot Nationlism. Do you really want to end up with the same fate as Nazi Germany? DO you really beleive you can avoid it with your current imperialistic actions?
#99
I love the smell of war! Bring it on! We in the USA have been waiting a long time to smash the Russians and it is time. Your arrogant president and KGB prime minister will lead you to defeat. We will remind you of your violent losses in Afghanistan for it was our bombs and missiles that the Afghani's used against you.
Posted by: Clint H ||
08/11/2008 14:13 Comments ||
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#100
I love the smell of war! Bring it on! We in the USA have been waiting a long time to smash the Russians and it is time.
#101
gromguru: I guess they've learned from the "Kosovo Crisis", TW.
You mean the crisis where the US annexed Kosovo so that it became a US territory, such that all Kosovars are now American citizens? That Kosovo crisis?
I think I'm beginning to see where gromguru's anti-American hostility is coming from - he's Russian (and Israeli), which I should have guessed from the name. I can't figure out why he's so supportive of Russia, which is the country that supplied the Arab countries in the Yom Kippur War, and threatened to intervene on the Arab side with Russian troops.
#102
Somebody said that two of the Rantburg moderators are "fluent in Russian." This probably, means being able to read a label from a vodka bottle.
Give me a break!
#103
Matt K: (like his wife, already in the States)
What are you talking about? Sandra Roelofs was in Beijing cheering on Georgian athletes on August 9. I can't imagine she could have flown back to Georgia during a shooting war, given that Russian jets were controlling Georgian skies.
#105
Somebody said that two of the Rantburg moderators are "fluent in Russian." This probably, means being able to read a label from a vodka bottle.
Give me a break!
Intelligence people must be able to do much more than that.
#110
Now a note about the "beacon of freedom" Saakashvilli (or what's his name?). Great spinmaster. Have you seen him giving a press conference with Georgian flags alongside the EU flags! Georgia, of course, is not a member of the European Union. It is all part of the show to subdue the people of South Ossetia and Abkhasia to the totalitarian (Saudi Arabia like) regime of Saakashvilli, but make it appear "or so european." South Ossetia and Abkhasia together constitute a lot of people, who clearly did not want to be part of Georgia. In fact they fought for their independence and won it in 1992. Saakashvilli was elected, partly, on a promise to recapture those territories, which was a clear pandering to Georgian nationalists. Now, how come Saakashvilli speaks passable English - which comes so handy to shape (and misshape) the Western world's public opinion. That's because he did a stint in a U.S. law school. But don't think that has made him undersand and appreciate American ideals of freedom and democracy. And don't think he intended to practice law. Just like some of the terrorists educated here, he rushed back to his native Georgia, because there was a power void, and he was young and ambitious and wanted that power really, really bad. So, that summs up that guy.
Posted by: General Comment ||
08/11/2008 15:06 Comments ||
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#111
And a hearty welcome to you too, "General Comment"!
#112
Now a note about the "beacon of freedom" Saakashvilli (or what's his name?). Great spinmaster. Have you seen him giving a press conference with Georgian flags alongside the EU flags! Georgia, of course, is not a member of the European Union. , usw, etc, etc.
#113
"It is all part of the show to subdue the people of South Ossetia and Abkhasia to the totalitarian (Saudi Arabia like) regime of Saakashvilli, but make it appear "or so european.""
nothing Saudi arabia like about Georgia. That the KGB propagandists resort to these lies is telling.
" South Ossetia and Abkhasia together constitute a lot of people,"
SO by itself is only 70,000, and nothing was happenign in Abkhazia to justify the Soviet (aw hell, lets call a spade a spade) intervention.
" who clearly did not want to be part of Georgia. "
Chechens didnt want to be part of Russia.
"In fact they fought for their independence and won it in 1992."
They won de facto independence, cause Scheverdnadze was working with Russia. Note, de facto independence has no legal meaning (as in teh case of Taiwan) till its declared, and then survives.
" Saakashvilli was elected, partly, on a promise to recapture those territories, which was a clear pandering to Georgian nationalists."
No more so than Putins promise to regain Chechnya was pandering to Russian nationalists. Putins attempt to reconstitute the USSR goes beyond that, of course.
" Now, how come Saakashvilli speaks passable English - which comes so handy to shape (and misshape) the Western world's public opinion. That's because he did a stint in a U.S. law school. But don't think that has made him undersand and appreciate American ideals of freedom and democracy. And don't think he intended to practice law. "
Lots of american lawyers go into politics, its not a big deal.
"Just like some of the terrorists educated here, he rushed back to his native Georgia,"
except he isnt a terrorist, and slipping in "just like" is, er, a classic stalinist rhetorical ploy.
" because there was a power void, and he was young and ambitious and wanted that power really, really bad. So, that summs up that guy."
Sounds like a pretty typical democractic pol to me. I suppose you prefer ex-KGB agents.
#116
he's Russian (and Israeli), which I should have guessed from the name
I would applaud your foray into linguistic detection "Zhang Fei", but---unfortunately---the word "gromgoru" comes from an imaginary language invented by a German-American SF writer.
#120
I don't mind that Saakashvilli is a lawyer who went into politics. What I do mind is that he is seeking support of a develped democracy (this country) to advance his non-democratic recapture of the territories which politically disagreed with him in 1992. Analogies of S.O. and AB with Chechnya are improper.
Posted by: General Comment ||
08/11/2008 15:30 Comments ||
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#121
why are the analogies with Chechnya improper - it seems a much closer analogy than Kosovo or iraq.
Democracy means that Ossetians and Abkazians should have democratic rights within Georgia - and Saak offered them autonomy, far more than Slobo offered Kosovo, or then the Putins friends in China offer to Tibet.
Democracy does NOT mean anyone who wants independence gets it. And if you want to know yet again what was unique about Kosovo, we can tell you AGAIN.
#122
Actually, Shashkavili did practice law in the U.S. for several years before going back home. Hardly a rush.
Ha! You are our beloved liberalhawk, then? I feared that it couldn't be that two such nice, erudite Jewish boys would find Rantburg both useful and congenial. I have to admit, though, the sG nym doesn't trigger in some the visceral dislike of Liberals.
#123
Finally, why is it that Russia cannot respond with full military force to attack on S.O. which is under protection of its peacekeepers? Oh, I know, you are going to say, that's because the peacekeeps are russian and because Russia is an imterested party here there is a conflict of interest. But Saakashvilly could have chosen political means to invite international peacekeepers. I don't know whether he tried. He probably did but was unsuccesful. Anyway . . .
I think that in its response to Georgian attack, Russia is being too timid. It should not confine itself to strikes just in S.O. territory and nearby Gori, for example, but should completely destroy Georgian military's command and control infrastructure throughout Georgia.
Saakashvilly should stay. If Georgians want to later re-elect him (or not) that's up to them.
Posted by: General Comment ||
08/11/2008 15:50 Comments ||
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#124
Who is a "liberalhawk"? Also, who are the "Jewish boys?"
Posted by: General Comment ||
08/11/2008 15:53 Comments ||
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#125
"Democracy does NOT mean anyone who wants independence gets it." Tell this to Texas, please!
Posted by: General Comment ||
08/11/2008 15:56 Comments ||
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#126
Wow General Comment - you're wandering all over the reservation here. To pick just one issue, does Russia support North Ossetian independence, or international peacekeeping arrangements?
(PS - may not want to mention the Texas Independence movement too loudly, there are all sorts of interesting conditions, including the right to further subdivide into a final total of five states! If one Texas is good, think how great five would be!)
#127
The Chechnya analogy. Chechens really began bothering russian people. Including the attack on Ingushetia. How about Beslan? I am surprised they did not nuke the place. And the reason they did not nuke the place is because they were a lot of russians in Chechnya. Plus the ecology would suffer :)
Listen, russians were good enough when they let Georgia go, and the other "repiblics." You want too much from the people. You think that the people are "hollier than thau." Patience runs thin at some point.
Posted by: General Comment ||
08/11/2008 16:03 Comments ||
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#128
Finally, why is it that Russia cannot respond with full military force to attack on S.O. which is under protection of its peacekeepers? Oh, I know, you are going to say, that's because the peacekeeps are russian and because Russia is an imterested party here there is a conflict of interest. But Saakashvilly could have chosen political means to invite international peacekeepers. I don't know whether he tried. He probably did but was unsuccesful. Anyway
he did, and IIUC he was unsuccessful because the Russians refused.
as for Texas, no democracy did NOT mean texas automatically had the right to independence. Texas achieved its OWN independence by revolution, without the assistance of the United States. Mexico was unable to supppress that independence. The US recognized that independence, as did major european powers. Then, later, at the request of texas, the US annexed texas.
#129
But Saakashvilly could have chosen political means to invite international peacekeepers. I don't know whether he tried. He probably did but was unsuccesful. Anyway . . .
That's about a D- effort there, bub. There are UN peacekeepers in Georgia. You can read about them at the link: LINK . In fact, UN observers were the first to confirm the Russian seizure of the Georgian town of Senaki.
#130
the chechen attacks on Russian territory came AFTER the Russian attempt to eliminate Chechnya. They would probably not have occured had the rest of the world recognized Chechnya, or sent troops into end Russian control there. However teh rest of the world did not, as they respected Russian sovereignty.
In other words, had the rest of the world treated Russia as Russia is treating Georgia, russia would have lost Chechnya.
The only difference is that Russia is bigger and stronger than georgia, and could have defended itself, with nukes if necessary.
Russias entire arguement in georgia comes down to force. Well, then, we will be equally cynical. You want to show you can avenge the fall of your allies, the deaths of Slobo and Saddam by destroying Georgia, well we will show we can inflict pain on you as well.
#131
"To pick just one issue, does Russia support North Ossetian independence, or international peacekeeping arrangements?"
I don't know what Russia supports. But Russia would not probably want international peacekeepers. Also, you probably, mistyped, b/c North Ossetia is a part of the Russian Federation.
South Ossetia is part of Georgia. S.O. wants to reunite with North Ossetia and consequently become part of the Russian Federation.
Posted by: General Comment ||
08/11/2008 16:09 Comments ||
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#132
I don't know why anyone would think that the Russia of today is any different than the Russia that rolled tanks into its puppet states decades ago. Take one dose of Stalinist/KGB culture, mix it with WWII-inspired paranoia (needing buffer puppet states for protection), and stir in ugly demographics, economics, and alcoholism and you've got Russia today. The cold war didn't end with the disintegration of the Soviet Union -- it just temporarily warmed a bit while Russia struggled to get back on its feet. Putin is just Krushchev with a higher IQ and better manners in public. He's still a thug on a grand scale.
What the Russians are doing today in Georgia is aggressive and homicidal. It is in no way justified by anything done by the Georgians. It is a power play that would be reckless except for the precedents of decades ago in which they did similar things to puppet states and got away with them. The difference is that Georgia is not a puppet state.
So where do you stand, all you Canadians and Russians who have crawled out of the woodwork here today? With Putin? You are unworthy of Rantburg.
#134
No GC, I didn't mistype, which leads to the next question - why is there a "North" Ossetia?
Here's a hint - Russia has shown how they end a line of questions on a topic they don't approve. And they don't approve lots of topics. Actually, that's a good question - what does Russia approve? Better yet, what is the point of Russia? Even Solzhenitsyn never quite seemed to figure that out.
#137
Finally, why is it that Russia cannot respond with full military force to attack on S.O. which is under protection of its peacekeepers? Oh, I know, you are going to say, that's because the peacekeeps are russian and because Russia is an imterested party here there is a conflict of interest. But Saakashvilly could have chosen political means to invite international peacekeepers. I don't know whether he tried. He probably did but was unsuccesful. Anyway . . .
The Russians are occupation troops on the way to making South Ossetia (and Georgia) Russian soil. At 17m sq km, Russia is larger than the second largest country in the world by about 70%. But Russians will never be satisfied until growing numbers of foreigners taste the dirt from the soles of Russian boots. We are looking at the resumption of the expansion of Russian empire that began centuries ago, and was uninterrupted neither by revolution in 1917 nor counter-revolution in 1989. It figures. As Richard Pipes pointed out, the problem with Russia wasn't ever that it was Communist - it was because it was Russian. Today's Russians are the equivalent of the Germans in the inter-war period - they feel aggrieved and will expand until they meet serious resistance.
#138
Sure are lots of newbies here today. Funny that. Funny too that they all seem to be supporting Russia. Yeah...just kind of, you know, an odd coincidence.
#140
Darrell: I don't know why anyone would think that the Russia of today is any different than the Russia that rolled tanks into its puppet states decades ago. Take one dose of Stalinist/KGB culture, mix it with WWII-inspired paranoia (needing buffer puppet states for protection), and stir in ugly demographics, economics, and alcoholism and you've got Russia today. The cold war didn't end with the disintegration of the Soviet Union -- it just temporarily warmed a bit while Russia struggled to get back on its feet. Putin is just Krushchev with a higher IQ and better manners in public. He's still a thug on a grand scale.
Russian territorial acquisitiveness neither started with the Bolshevik Revolution nor ended with Communism. It's now gotten a major funding boost with the proceeds of sharply higher commodities prices. In fact, the action against Georgia is a ploy to monopolize access to Azerbaijan's energy resources.
#141
"Well, then, we will be equally cynical. You want to show you can avenge the fall of your allies, the deaths of Slobo and Saddam by destroying Georgia, well we will show we can inflict pain on you as well."
That's evil. Besides you are lumping every two-but dictator together. Russia has never considered Saddam an ally. As for Slobo - that's a trickier question. It is true that the russians view serbs as allies, well, not so much in a political sense, but more like a friendly nation or ethnic group. Kind of similar to how americans view the British on a people's level. Albanians are moslems, they have strange German-sounding names and thus are more distant to the ordinary russians. Although, as a side note, russians have tatars and bashkirs - they are moslems. Tatars and baskirs have always lived in Russia and are integrated into the society very well and are thus part of Russia. But ultimately, you'd have to ask them, b/c it is their opinion that matters. In this country, some people also feel reservations about those who practice Islam for the very same reasons.
About infliction of pain: you are just going to slow down the Russian GDP growth. I agree that this is unpleasant, but it will be unpleasant for the ordinary russians. They have some sort of democracy, but not as fast acting as to effectuate a fast change. Besides, ordinary russians already dislike americans due to the perception that U.S. had a hand in dissolution of the Soviet Union. It is not that they long for the soviet system, it is that they feel that the system could have been changed to capitalism without the disintegration of the country. If the U.S. were to help Georgia, the russians are going to hate americans for it deeply. I am just saying it the way it is. Good or bad.
As for Putin and Co. - again, this is just the way it is going to be for now.
Posted by: General Comment ||
08/11/2008 16:36 Comments ||
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#142
"That's evil."
No its not, its realpolitik. Its increasing the cost of certain actions to Russia, so Russia will stop doing those actions.
" Besides you are lumping every two-but dictator together. Russia has never considered Saddam an ally."
Take a look at Putins "you hanged Saddam for taking out some Shiite villages, but Saak must live" comment. Its clear to me that the bitterness over Saddam is intense.
" As for Slobo - that's a trickier question. It is true that the russians view serbs as allies, well, not so much in a political sense, but more like a friendly nation or ethnic group. Kind of similar to how americans view the British on a people's level. Albanians are moslems, they have strange German-sounding names and thus are more distant to the ordinary russians. Although, as a side note, russians have tatars and bashkirs - they are moslems. Tatars and baskirs have always lived in Russia and are integrated into the society very well and are thus part of Russia. But ultimately, you'd have to ask them, b/c it is their opinion that matters."
Im not talking about Serbia - Im talking about the bitter humiliation Im convinced some Russian elites feel at the fall, arrest, and death of Slobo.
"In this country, some people also feel reservations about those who practice Islam for the very same reasons."
Well I dont, so dont group me with them. Im against anti-muslim bigotry.
"About infliction of pain: you are just going to slow down the Russian GDP growth."
it will effect more than GDP. It will be political above all, and designed to humiliate Putin in every way possible. Russians may think weve been trying to do that already, but they are wrong. Weve hardly been paying attention to Russia. You wont like it when we do.
"I agree that this is unpleasant, but it will be unpleasant for the ordinary russians. They have some sort of democracy, but not as fast acting as to effectuate a fast change. Besides, ordinary russians already dislike americans due to the perception that U.S. had a hand in dissolution of the Soviet Union. It is not that they long for the soviet system, it is that they feel that the system could have been changed to capitalism without the disintegration of the country."
the disintegration of Russia, or of the USSR?
"If the U.S. were to help Georgia, the russians are going to hate americans for it deeply. I am just saying it the way it is. Good or bad."
I hate russians for what they are doing now. and for what they have done. Opposing united action for change in Sudan, Burma, Zimbabwe. Helping the Iranians. Blackmailing and threatening Poles, Czechs, Balts and Ukrainians. Supporting tyranny in central asia. For the last 8 years they have been doing hateful things. But this is much bigger.
We can created doznes of "Afghanistans" due to Russian suppression of freedom. Live by the jackboot, die by the response.
You are sowing the seeds now by squashing freedom instead of spreading and securing it.
Enjoy the dozens of little afghanistans sucker. Either that, or push Putin and his thugs out and start behving liek a civiized nation (instead of bombing innocent civilians in a terroristic campaign like you are now).
I hoep you enjoy every one of those body bags coming back home from IEDs, EFPs, snipers and guerilla actions that you will reap.
#144
I support Russia on this blog, because I believe that they don't get fair coverage, especially on CNN. MSNBC and Yahoo are a little better. I have searched and stumbled upon this blog. I believe that the russians are not acustomed to shaping the right perception which is a huge part of good public relationships (there is a cultural aspect here) and they do not present the information in the most favorable way, like Georgia is doing right now (of course blatantly slanted to its side - that's what gets me). You may say that is because Georgia has learned the freedom of speech, they are being trithful, and because Russia is less free than Georgia, and accordingly it just rips the benefits of its own labor, so to speak. However, this is not entirely true. I watched Saak and Ivanov's respective video clips, and Saak comes across better. Ivanov comes across as defensive, but this is because he is emotional and already "anticipates" U.S.'s negative perception.
Posted by: General Comment ||
08/11/2008 16:51 Comments ||
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#145
"the disintegration of Russia, or of the USSR?"
-USSR. People still remember that.
Posted by: General Comment ||
08/11/2008 16:56 Comments ||
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#146
on the contrary I think their position has been shown on US media, and defended by pundits in the Christian Sci monitor, NYT, and elsewhere.
Certainly I dont think the prowestern position is shown as fairly in Putins USSR.
#147
well then, I dont think keeping it together was possible. Too many people wanted to leave it (esp Balts, Ukrainians, Georgians), and the level of violence to hold it together was becoming extreme. at the very minimum that would have prevented the transition to a new society.
#148
You've been welcomed here, General Comment. But Rantburg discussion tends to be at a pretty informed level, which means you have to be prepared to defend your opinions at that level. We've also got a significant number of current and former military here, and engineers of various sorts, so the language can be correspondingly blunt and salty. OldSpook, f'r instance is both a retired Special Forces sergeant and a talented programmer. This is a good place to learn whether one's gut feel on an issue is justified or in need of modification. Enjoy!
#149
"Im not talking about Serbia - Im talking about the bitter humiliation Im convinced some Russian elites feel at the fall, arrest, and death of Slobo."
I don't think this is true. Russia does not yet have the "Russian elites" as you understand them in an american sense. This is b/c (i) history of communism, (ii) again b/c of communism, russian society is more urban (in a european not american sense, that is it is more concentrated in large cities). The elites are beginning to be formed now, when education is no longer free, and there is a significant separation by income.
Posted by: General Comment ||
08/11/2008 17:02 Comments ||
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#150
. Russia does not yet have the "Russian elites" as you understand them in an american sense.
i meant the KGB-military-security axis that has been running the Kremlin and dominating russian govt since before Putin took office, and that in recent years is increasing its hold on Russian industry and media.
#152
"You've been welcomed here, General Comment. But Rantburg discussion tends to be at a pretty informed level, which means you have to be prepared to defend your opinions at that level."
Does this mean, I am not "welcomed" any longer? Or not sufficiently "informed?" And what was that about the "talented programmer?" You want to compare credentials? Want a weblink to mine??? I can assure you that I have more credentials and make more money - and money is the american way, right, so be prepared to lose. BTW are those musings of just one moderator or all of them?
However, since this appears to be a "former military" types blog, you guys are already brainwashed and I am prepared to leave anyway after I read your response. Also, it appears that you do not want to listen the info that you are not going to read in the local newspapers. Being military does not make you "pretty informed" and especially does not make you russian, who knows the opinions of the russians. It goes without saying that you may continue to support your already formed opinions, feel good about rehashing the old stereotypes, and otherwise enjoy your insider's blog: it is for the insiders afterall, right?
Posted by: General Comment ||
08/11/2008 17:20 Comments ||
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#153
People of the world. You deceive! World mass media conduct propagation of a false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia has attacked South Ossetia. At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered into city Tskhinvali. Artillery bombardment all the day long proceeded, fights with use of tanks and heavy combat material, both against ossetic armies, and against peace inhabitants were conducted. 1400 civil people already were lost. The Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and prompting of the world in republic and protection of the Russian citizens living on territory of South Ossetia. Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on eve of Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism. Proofs and video-materials look on : www.1tvrus.com/ , www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_main.main , www.rian.ru/ , www.vesti.ru/news , news.ntv.ru/ , www.ren-tv.com/ , www.newsru.com/ .We shall tell is not present to WAR!!!
Er no. theres a long tradition in the US that some things are MORE important than money. Theres also a social democratic tradition in the US, one that I like to consider myself in part heir to (even if im centrist on economics) You seem to have some real stereotypes about the US, and that doesnt aid communications.
Also there are many here who are not ex-military. I for one.
And no, I dont claim to know the feelings of Russian people, though Ive met many russian emigres, Ive read Tolstoy and Doestevsky and Solzenystsin and Pasternak, Ive taken a course on Soviet politics in college. But we arent only debating how Russian people FEEL, we are debating what is HAPPENING in georgia, and that may differ from how Russian people FEEL about it.
#157
Too many newbies in one day for this to be just a coincidence. Sorry. Not convinced they are coming here to learn either, although I'm sure there is some learning going on...ie that the Russian action in Georgia is not going over well in world opinion and that the bear may actually have stepped in it. Will we see thousands of purple ink-stained fingers waving in the air? Is that the historically pure motivation of Russian military action? Me thinks it is not.
#160
General Comment
You would be surprised whom are among my friends..
We agree to disagree on many things... -even this- but.. all agree the USSR was a disaster and the path since has not been one that causes them to move back to Russia, no matter what opinion they voice...
#161
"But we arent only debating how Russian people FEEL, we are debating what is HAPPENING in georgia, and that may differ from how Russian people FEEL about it."
The two are clearly interconnected. The russian people do have a say into how much the military bombs. If they feel, the military should bomb, it will continue bombing. There are polls. There are polls which are independent from the goverment. Kremlin watches the polls. And Dmitry Medvedev - a son of university professors from St. Peterburg - is not of the make who wants lots of bodybags, military or civilian, russian or georgian. And president of Russia, even if not Mr. Putin, is not an inconsequential figure. Accordingly, I would tend to think that the Russians would not want to escalate the conflict to the extent it would leave a lot of bad aftertaste.
To the one who asked for $50 bucks, I hope it was a joke: giving to a charity unrecognized by the IRS would be improper :) I would lend you, if I knew you'd give it back.
Stereotypes: I have them . . . I read a lot of CNN - news made in Atlanta, Georgia. Those tend to develop stereotypes. About the "democratic tradition" - yes, U.S. has it. Russia does not. That's the reason for the problems. But Georgia does not either, so don't think they are the angels. In fact, in this war, I think they are lying SOBs.
Conclusion of my postings: At this time, given the current circimstances and the degree of the russian military response I think it's ok.
Posted by: General Comment ||
08/11/2008 17:58 Comments ||
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#162
About the "newbies" and "coincidence."
I don't see any other recognizable russians on the blog today besides me, if others would be from "official" russia, they would be recognized by you guys.
Posted by: General Comment ||
08/11/2008 18:02 Comments ||
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#163
Actually, correction about the last one. There appear to be some.
Posted by: General Comment ||
08/11/2008 18:08 Comments ||
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#164
[Me has been pooplisted.]
Posted by: Me ||
08/11/2008 18:19 Comments ||
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#165
Greetings from Russia. =) I ask the PARDON for bad English is a machine translation. I Will ask you to answer some questions. Two variants of the answer: Yes or not. If the answer is other I reserve the right to itself to consider you as the person not capable to meaningful dialogue. I hope at you courage will suffice. To begin with two questions:
1) whether you admit that fact, what to a zone of the South Ossetia conflict during the period till August, 8th, 2008 on legitimate rights there were Russian peacemakers?
2) whether you admit that fact, what in a consequence of Actions of the Georgian army during the period from August, 8 till August, 10th has been destroyed about 2000 civilians of South Ossetia?
#166
<< You want to compare credentials? Want a weblink to mine??? I can assure you that I have more credentials and make more money - and money is the american way, right, so be prepared to lose.>>
Oh, I'm sure someone posting from a corporate law firm whose main offices are in NYC and Paris makes a good deal of money (assuming you're not a summer intern).
shrug Mr. Lotp turned down medical school for a military career. Money is far from our first value and that's true for many here.
#168
Denis: What right did the Russians have putting "peacekeepers" inside the borders of Georgia? What right do the Russians have to conquer cities inside Georgia itself?
If this were about South Ossetia, the Russian army would have stopped with it. They haven't; the whole damned South Ossetia story is nothing more than a false pretense, just like Hitler's concerns for the Germans in the Sudetenland.
Posted by: Rob Crawford ||
08/11/2008 19:33 Comments ||
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#169
Does this mean, I am not "welcomed" any longer?
Goodness, no! You, of all the new posters who've appeared today, have generated an interesting discussion, General Comment. Besides, I am not one of the moderators, being qualified neither by training nor temperament, so my opinion doesn't count in such matters. I mentioned OldSpook's qualifications merely to give you an idea of the level of knowledge you are debating. I am the sole example here of genus Common American Housewife -- the others actually have expertise in the various areas discussed on this site. I can't speak to incomes, although of course I earn nothing. Most of us have travelled abroad, though, whether for business or pleasure, and many have lived elsewhere. Some of course, define elsewhere as home. (Can anyone venture a guess as to why we haven't heard from our French or English correspondents today? Usually they all check in at some point, but it's now bedtime across the pond. A pity -- it would be helpful to know what they are hearing and seeing over there.)
An international law firm? You'll have plenty to discuss with the various lawyers who post here, then. It should be educational, especially for me, which is one of the reasons I hang out here. :-)
lotp, Mr. Wife decided against a medical career as well, although he was headed into research. He'd been doing work at a post-doc level in oncology. I'm awfully glad he chose to become an engineer instead -- I'd have been a terrible doctor's wife. I've done much better as a corporate international trailing spouse... and had lots more fun! Not to mention that trailing daughter #1 is starting her freshman year in the 300-level for German, her second mother tongue. (Yay!)
#171
Denis: 1) whether you admit that fact, what to a zone of the South Ossetia conflict during the period till August, 8th, 2008 on legitimate rights there were Russian peacemakers?
The Russians in South Ossetia are peacekeepers the way the Germans in the Sudetenland were peacekeepers.
Denis: 2) whether you admit that fact, what in a consequence of Actions of the Georgian army during the period from August, 8 till August, 10th has been destroyed about 2000 civilians of South Ossetia?
It would be nice to get people in to look at the evidence instead of relying on Russian claims.
2) is there a need for the Russians to push past Ossetia into Georgia proper?
If 1) is a yes then we have an onus to act. W needs to relay to Putin that they have a week to pull back to Russia proper an allow human aid. If the Ruskies balk at that then it's time to run some stealths up there under a moonless sky & whack some of their front line tanks and troops.
If 2) is a no then the EU/NATO and UN have an onus to act (though I will not hold my breath)
As I said in another thread, the Chinese gov't is laughing.
BEIJING (Reuters) - Vice President Dick Cheney called Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili to express U.S. solidarity in the conflict with Russia and told him "Russian aggression must not go unanswered," the vice president's office said on Monday.
"The vice president expressed the United States' solidarity with the Georgian people and their democratically elected government in the face of this threat to Georgia's sovereignty and territorial integrity," Cheney's office said in a statement.
It said Cheney told Saakashvili that "Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and that its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States, as well as the broader international community."
Posted by: john frum ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
But *what* consequences?
Is Cheney going to talk Bush into sending the Georgians help?
Or will Bush still "see into Putin's soul" and still be blind to the thuggery and megalomania Putin has?
#2
Interesting dilemma for America - one that the old KGB intelligensia have created just for that reason - what do we do?
Well, O Dark One, what do we do? How about first, parking some strategic military assets in the Baltic's to give Vlad an indication of his line in the sand. Or, how about convincing our Eurasian ally's like Kazakhstan, Azerbijan, Krygystan and others that they should open up bases for our tactical fighters, refuelers, transports, etc. What about an naval presence in the Black Sea, what now will Vlad do?
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
08/11/2008 4:37 Comments ||
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#3
If it does go unanswered then Putin is right, and we are just a bunch of pussies in a state of decline.
#4
kazakhstan isnt our ally, and Khygiz is isolated and very vulnerable. The Azeris support the Georgians, but what real power to the Azeris have - theyre also on the front line with Iran.
Nah, if we do anything, its stingers via Ukraine, Turkey, or both.
#5
The Georgians already have modern western SAMs.
This is not a war where attacks by helicopters will be significant and where shoulder fired SAMs will make a difference.
Russia has brought in all sorts of trash... their own 58th army (basically a rag tag counterinsurgency force), and part of the Vostok battalion. These are a Chechen militia noted for their brutality. For the real heavy lifting they have Spetsnaz and paratroopers.
If they occupy Georgia proper the Georgians will resist but it seems the Russians want to pummel them and then withdraw, holding onto Abkazia and South Ossetia. They will bring in Euro peacekeepers to keep the two sides apart. Georgia will have lost this territory.
If the Georgians want they can fight a low level resistance war in Abkazia and Ossetia but the price for this is continued instability, periodic Russian retaliation and damage to their economy. Bleeding the trash won't bother the Kremlin. The Vostok battalion is well suited for an irregular war. The best thing for Georgia might be to simply move on and join Europe.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/11/2008 9:52 Comments ||
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#6
Europe threw Georgia to the bears to keep their posh lifestyle fueled by Russian energy.
#7
John Frum - I think you've identified the end game - A Georgian loss resulting in Georgia and Unkraine in NATO, with ground force bases established to the Caspian, and perhaps beyond. It will be most interesting what the Azeris, and later, the Kazakhs, do.
I suspect the biggest issue will be whether Ukraine can make its sovereignity of the Black Sea stick. If the Poles and Germans agree, I think so, but Russia will likely pull out all the separatist cards it has, from Moldova to the Chinese borders - which may bite them in the end.
They still seem to be relying on defense in depth, which seems less and less useful outside of extremely limited circumstances such as this.
Also, this probably means the end of whatever faint hopes there were of use of Russian "peacekeepers" within any UN structure.
#8
JF - Georgia has already walked away from S ossetia, and Russia has already gone beyond. Putins initial calculation was that the loss of Ossetia and Abkhazia means the fall of Saalikhasvili. But the initial reports from Tbilisi are that he has acheived the opposite,the population has rallied around the govt, and are blaming Russia and also the West, but not their own leader. If Saal survives, and goes on to join NATO, thats a defeat and embarassment for Putin. Thats why Khalilzad was focusing on the issue - Putin has to push Saal out for a win - Putin has even taken to comparing Saal to Saddam Hussein. But to do THAT he has to punish the georgian people much further, till they break. He has to either push ground forces into rest of Georgia, or he has to hit them from the air.
Well a push into georgian cities means a guerilla war, that WONT go well for the Russians. and that leaves the air, which is why air defenses are important.
As Russia forces its neighbour to retreat from South Ossetia, the people of Gori tell our correspondent of betrayal by the West
As a Russian jet bombed fields around his village, Djimali Avago, a Georgian farmer, asked me: Why wont America and Nato help us? If they wont help us now, why did we help them in Iraq?
A similar sense of betrayal coursed through the conversations of many Georgians here yesterday as their troops retreated under shellfire and the Russian Army pressed forward to take full control of South Ossetia.
Smoke rose as Russian artillery fire exploded less than half a mile from the bridge marking South Ossetias border with Georgia. A group of Georgian soldiers hastily abandoned their lorry after its wheels were shot out and ran across the border.
Georgian troops looked disheartened as they regrouped around tank lines about 2km from the border. Many said that they had been fighting in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, until the early hours when they were suddenly ordered to withdraw from the breakaway region.
They told us to come out I dont know why but some of our guys are still out there in the fields, one soldier told The Times. I want to go back. If we lose South Ossetia now, it wont be for ever because we will never surrender our land.
President Saakashvili of Georgia has ordered a complete ceasefire and offered talks to the Russians. Despite this, the sound of gunfire and shelling could be clearly heard along the border zone last night.
Terrified civilians have fled in their thousands, convinced that Russia will not stop at the border but sweep into Georgia. Some fear that the Kremlin is intent on establishing a buffer zone to guard South Ossetia against future incursions.
Gori, normally a bustling city of 50,000 people, is largely deserted after Russian airstrikes at the weekend. Scores of people were abandoning their homes and loading possessions into vehicles or carrying what they could on foot. There is a lot of panic. Many people have left and I am thinking of joining them. My bags are already packed, Georgi, a 56-year-old resident of Tirdznisi, said. We are afraid that the Russians will come here and kill us. People would not go if we had a strong army but they dont believe in our army any more.
Iago Jokhadze abandoned his village of Ergneti, close to Tskhinvali, after it was bombed by Russian jets yesterday. Fighting back tears, he said: I have left everything, I dont even have another shirt. If the Russians stay, then I can never return. Were afraid of what the Russians can do.
Miriyan Gogolashvili, of Tkviav, said: The Russians will be here tomorrow. They want to show us and the world how powerful they are. Tomorrow it will be Ukraine and nobody in the West is doing anything to stop them. Why were our soldiers in Kosovo and Iraq if we dont get any help from the West now? he asked.
The Georgian Government is recalling its 2,000 troops serving in Iraq to confront the threat at home. Many Georgians will be reluctant to send them back after this war ends. Their despair was in sharp contrast to the confidence on the other side. At a base near the border, Russian peacekeepers appeared sure they would soon be joined by comrades from the regular army. We are operating normally; nobody has disturbed us at all, said one.
In Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, refugees from the fighting told how Russian helicopters bombed homes in Tshkinvali and neighbouring villages. Some spent days in basements before emerging to discover that their communities had been obliterated. Mzia Sabashvili, who hid for three days, said: I know that lots of my neighbours are dead. I have no idea who is left.
The Russians paid little heed to those in their way. A vehicle carrying observers from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe was shot at by a sniper near Tskhinvali. The bullet cracked the toughened glass of the passenger window, where a British officer had been sitting.
In Gori, where a statue of Stalin, the citys most famous son, still stands in the main square, relatives scoured lists of the wounded put up outside the main hospital. More than 120 people were admitted yesterday in addition to the 456 treated since fighting erupted on Friday. The chief surgeon said that three civilians, including a pregnant woman, had died of their injuries.
Scores of soldiers milled around on the road outside. One said that they had all been in Tskhinvali but were now preparing to pull out of Gori. The situation was very bad there but we were ready to stay. Russia is the enemy of the world, he said.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
Any questions now about the Russians still being thugs, deliberately targeting civlians in a terror campaign, ignoring international rules and laws?
Where do we draw the line? Is the Ukraine next for Putin's Russian Mafia intimidation?
#2
They're asking a legitimate question, why aren't we there helping them? What benefit is there to being an American or a NATO ally? I don't see any, do any of you?
#6
Russia doesn't seem to be worried about openness. They don't really seem to give a rat's ass about what the world thinks. The entire world seems to hate us already, so what have we to lose by showing our hand? Israel can testify to that, but even they have chosen to comply with russia in this case. The Mr. Nice Guy, UN approved era has come to an end. It is high time we push our way to the front of the line and start grabbing what we can before Russia and China pick the shelves clean.
American diplomats have conceded that there are few options for dealing what President George W Bush has branded a 'dangerous escalation' by Russia and ruled out military intervention on behalf of Georgia.
"We hope that Russia will declare a ceasefire, as Georgia has already done, and this can be settled diplomatically," a National Security Council official told The Daily Telegraph.
"We need to work together with Russia over a host of important issues, including Iran."
He was speaking as the United States drafted a resolution condemning the "military assault" by Russia to be considered at an emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council. Russia holds a permanent veto on the council but the draft reflected growing world condemnation of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's actions.
A grim-faced Mr Bush said in Beijing on Saturday that he was "deeply concerned about the situation in Georgia" and that air strikes "far from the zone of conflict in South Ossetia" marked "a dangerous escalation in the crisis".
Jim Jeffrey, President Bush's deputy national security adviser, said that White House had told Russia: "If the disproportionate and dangerous escalation on the Russian side continues...this will have a significant long-term impact on U.S.-Russian relations."
Russia's action caught the Bush administration by surprise and are an embarrassment to Mr Bush, who was smiling and making small talk with Mr Putin at the Beijing Olympics as Russian aircraft were pounding Georgia, one of the strongest US allies among the former Soviet republics.
After his first meeting with Mr Putin in 2001: "I was able to get a sense of his soul, a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country."
At the time, Mr Bush was warned by aides that Mr Putin was a former KGB man who was skilled in making it appear he was an adversarys friend. In the years since, there has been growing concern about Mr Putins autocratic rule and his determination to extend Russian influence and regain prestige.
On Saturday, Condoleezza Rice, the US secretary of state, demanded that Russia respect Georgias territorial integrity but gave no indication as to how the US would respond if Mr Putin remained defiant.
The main impediment to tough American action against Russia, which diplomats said remained aggrieved by western recognition of Kosovos independence from Serbia, is the desire to keep the pressure on Iran over its nuclear ambitions the administrations foreign policy priority. Russia wants to prevent Georgia joining Nato.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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#3
.....an embarrassment to Mr Bush, who was smiling and making small talk with Mr Putin at the Beijing Olympics as Russian aircraft were pounding Georgia,
Attending the Olympics was a mistake for this and other reasons as well. Just my opinion.
#4
So they win, and we lose, and georgia loses, and ukraine will lose when the time comes, and latvia, and so on and so forth. What a useless friend we are.
#7
Not loss in the profound sense of it, but we had a great deal of interest in Georgia's path towards true independence and it's just been crushed under Russian tanks. That's the loss.
Israel is to stop selling military equipment to Georgia after a complaint from Moscow. The arms ban includes sales of unmanned spy planes several of which have been shot down over Abkhazia during recent tensions between Georgia and its breakaway republics.
The Ministry of Defence in Israel imposed the weapons embargo after ministers in Jerusalem received complaints from Russia. The ban prohibits the sale of Hermes 450 UAV spy drones, made by Elbit Maarahot Systems Ltd.
The decision to cut the trade is thought to be linked to growing tensions in the Caucasus and Russias reaction to flights of unmanned drones over the demilitarized zone between the Georgia and Abkhazia.
Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livny is reported to have reluctantly made the decision to cut arms supplies to Tbilisi after consultations with Russia.
Moscow reminded the Israeli government that it had refrained from selling certain kinds of weapons to states that could threaten Israel. Russia said it had every right to expect Jerusalem to reciprocate the goodwill.
With tension rising in Georgias breakaway republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, Israels leadership has been facing a tricky choice between Russia and Georgia.
Russias barely hidden threat had the desired effect and Jerusalem opted for a ban on arms sales to Georgia.
Georgia has become a real goldmine for Israeli arms dealers, who will suffer because of the embargo.
Tbilisi had placed orders with several Israeli military manufacturers. Among the weaponry ordered were 70 million rifle cartridges, Merkava tanks, APCs, helicopters, UAVs, fire control systems and night-vision devices.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
I find this surprising, are they beholden to Moscow for energy or something?
#3
are they beholden to Moscow for energy or something?
Israel's Energy Ambitions
As is the case with Turkey, Israel is another Mediterranean country seeking to capitalize on geopolitics with regard to the B.T.C. pipeline. Israel imports nearly all of its needed oil -- about 300,000 barrels per day -- with 20 percent coming from Azerbaijan. In recent weeks, Azerbaijan announced that it would be increasing its exports to Israel via the B.T.C. Israel currently imports much of its oil and gas via the Tipline, which extends from Ashkelon on the Mediterranean coast to Eilat on the Gulf of Aqaba and leads into the Red Sea. Tel Aviv and Ankara recently announced in April plans to carry water, electricity, natural gas and oil to Israel by way of a proposed Ceyhan-Ashkelon-Eilat passage. Such a corridor would be controlled by Israel, which many consider a favorable prospect for Western interests, and would allow for the shipment of Caspian and Central Asian gas and oil to Asian markets including India, Japan and South Korea, thereby bypassing Russia entirely.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/11/2008 9:11 Comments ||
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#4
The pipeline project linking Turkey to Israel originally proposed by Israel at the time was an underwater pipeline from the Turkish terminal of Ceyhan to the port of Haifa.
Indian Petroleum Minister Mani Shankar Aiyar said in the first week of June that India was considering a proposal from Israel for the supply of oil from the BTC pipeline. Israel has told the Indian government that a pipeline between Turkey and Israel will deliver oil to the Israeli port of Eilat, from where it could be shipped to India. All the proWestern states in the region seem keen to cash in on the black gold that promises to start flowing soon from Baku.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/11/2008 9:16 Comments ||
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#5
why the need for elaborate explanations when the Russian blackmail is stated right there in the article? Do you think the Russians WOULDNT increase arms to Syria and Iran in response? Do you think thats NOT a concern to Israel?
#6
Well, Russia's already sending lots of arms to Syria and Iran atm _anyway_; most of the artillery park Hezbollah has lined up for the Next War comes from Russia to begin with.
#8
I doubt the Russians want to annex Georgia. This is about punishment, a brutal mauling by the bear, to serve as an example. They'll withdraw in a few days.
In a few months time, all the support for Saakashvili will have evaporated as the loss of territory sinks in and normal political activity resumes.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/11/2008 10:38 Comments ||
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#9
They never annexed Poland, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary etc.
Anyway, I'm thinking the Soviet-Finish model.
#2
Its not like touching shoes in a toliet or sending suggestive emails to pages or anything like that, you know. Its real sex, adulterous sex, semi-public sex, tabloid sex. Do you think I would have sex with someone with cancer? Yukkky!
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
08/11/2008 4:42 Comments ||
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#3
They really have achieved moral bankruptcy this time.
#7
As long as Ms Hunter declares the payments to her on her income tax and the Edwards campaign and supporters declare their payment, I don't see what the legal problem would be.
On the other hand, it would be cool to see what the 1099-MISC forms say and whether tax was witheld.
New Delhi, August 11: The Commander of a Navy Submarine that was involved in an accident with a merchant ship in the Arabian Sea in January has quit the service after a Board of Inquiry held him responsible for the incident. Naval Commander Narendra Kumar, who was the Commanding Officer of the Russian origin Kilo Class Submarine INS Sindhughosh when it brushed against a massive cargo ship during a routine exercise off the Gujarat coast, put in his papers last month.
Sources in the Navy said the officer, who was posted to administrative duties in Delhi after the incident, decided to quit the Navy rather than face a Court Martial where he was set to be dismissed from service.
The Board of Inquiry, which was set up immediately after the incident, concluded that as Commander of the submarine, Kumar could not escape responsibility for the accident that caused damage to the fins, periscope and aerials of the naval vessel. Sources indicated that the second in command of the submarine would also put in his papers, taking responsibility for the failure.
A major tragedy was averted on January 17 when one of the most advanced submarines of the Navy collided with a foreign merchant ship, MV Leeds, in the Arabian sea during a training exercise.
The diesel powered submarine brushed aside the massive cargo ship as it was trying to surface in shallow waters during the Western Fleet war games. All 53 crew members on board escaped unhurt but the submarine suffered damage and will remain out of service for several months.
As it was taking part in a simulated wargame where it had to evade the 'enemy' in 'restricted waters', the submarine had switched off sonar and its radar was not transmitting any signals. While the vessel performed a periscope scan before proceeding to surface, its commander failed to detect the merchant ship.
"The submarine was operating at a precarious depth and could not dive to escape due to the restricted waters," a Navy officer had then said. The merchant ship, that wasn't damaged in the incident, was not found at fault as it was operating as per the rules of the sea.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/11/2008 18:31 ||
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(PTI) President Pervez Musharraf today faced charges of "misappropriating" USD 700 million of anti-terrror aid provided by the US to Pakistan on the eve of launching the process in Parliament to impeach him, as pressure mounted on the former General to quit.
Firing a fresh salvo against the beleaguered former army chief, ruling PPP chief Asif Ali Zardari accused Musharraf, who has often targeted the country's politicians for indulging in corruption," of misappropriation and said "rogue" ISI members could have benefitted from it.
"Our grand old Musharraf has not been passing on all the 1 billion dollar a year that the Americans have been giving for the armed forces.... We're talking about 700 million dollars a year missing. The rest has been taken by 'Mush' for some scheme or other and we've got to find it," 54-year-old Zardari told the 'The Sunday Times'.
As the ruling coalition prepared a "comprehensive and solid" chargesheet to nail 64-year-old Musharraf down in an impeachment motion to be brought in the National Assembly session starting tomorrow, the President faced mounting pressure from friends and foes to step down.
Cracks have already appeared in Musharraf's main ally PML(Q) with MP Sardar Bahadur Khan Sihar advising the President to gracefully quit and claiming to have "support" of a dozen MPs and a couple of senators. Four independent FATA senators have also asked Musharraf to quit and pledged to support the impeachment motion.
"We will prepare a comprehensive and solid chargesheet that Musharraf will not be able to fight it....It is very necessary that he resigns himself, otherwise the impeachment will start," Law Minister Farooq Naek said after the ruling coalition met to draw a battle plan to end Musharraf's nine-year reign.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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Pressure is mounting on Pakistan's beleaguered President Pervez Musharraf from his own allies to step down before the ruling coalition tries to impeach him this month, officials said on Sunday.
Pakistan has been in political turmoil since early last year. The United States and its allies fear a prolonged political and constitutional crisis will lead to instability in the nuclear-armed state and partner of Washington in its war on terror, and uncertainty has unsettled markets and investors.
The governing coalition led by the party of slain former prime minister Benazir Bhutto decided on Thursday to move to impeach Musharraf, saying he plunged Pakistan into political and economic crises during nearly nine years of single-handed rule.
But even before the impeachment motion is moved in parliament, some of his own allies have called on him to resign and threatened to vote against him if he doesn't do so.
"I have advised the president to choose a dignified exit and resign to save the country from further polarization," Sardar Bahadur Khan Sihar, an MP from Musharraf's main ally the Pakistan Muslim League, Quaid-e-Azam (PML-Q), told Reuters.
"If he did not quit, than it's obvious I will vote in favor of his impeachment."
A close ally of Musharraf said he was likely to resign before the impeachment motion was moved.
"I think there would be a settlement ... No impeachment in view of resignation," the ally told Reuters on condition of anonymity.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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PPP Co-chairman Asif Ali Zardari may be the next president of Pakistan, Adviser to Prime Minister on Production and Industries Manzoor Wattoo said on Sunday. Talking to Express News, Wattoo said Zardari could become the next president as he "had representation in all provincial assembles and the National Assembly".
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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At least 10 PML-Q parliamentarians have appealed to Pakistan People's Party (PPP) Co-chairman Asif Ali Zardari to give a safe exit to President Pervez Musharraf and not impeach him, Aaj TV reported on Sunday. Member of the National Assembly Nasrullah Bajrani told the channel that he had the support of 10 PML-Q lawmakers, including Prince Nawaz Khan, Sardar Talib Nakai, Israr Tareen, Tariq Hussain Nakai and Nauman Ahmad Langaryal. He said the lawmakers believed that Musharraf should resign and Zardari should postpone the impeachment motion.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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The PML-Q will defend President Pervez Musharraf in case of an impeachment motion, said former Punjab chief minister Chaudhry Pervez Elahi. Talking to Geo News, he said the PML-Q would support President Musharraf on any decision he would take regarding his future.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/11/2008 00:00 ||
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We've written about the fact that the United States has by far the largest known oil shale deposits in the world. In fact our Rocky Mountain oil shale is believed to amount to as much as two trillion barrels, far more than the entire world has consumed since oil was discovered in Pennsylvania in the 19th century.
Now, one country has announced plans to develop its shale oil resources, but it isn't the United States, it's Jordan:
Energy-poor Jordan said on Sunday it was in talks with Anglo-Dutch group Royal Dutch Shell on an agreement to extract oil from the desert kingdom's 40-billion-tonne oil shale reserves. And once that happens, USA will buy it and provide Jordan with an increased millitary & political support in the name of energy independence
I recently sat down with executives at a San Francisco startup called Emotiv Systems, which has spent the last half-decade researching so-called brain-computer interfaces. Emotiv is currently fine-tuning a mind-reading headset called the Epoc, which should ship late this year.
The $299 device purports to eavesdrop on your thoughts and translate them into computer instructions, so you can play a game or arrange photos without using your hands or speaking words.
To pull this off, Emotiv uses electroencephalography, or EEG. The technology is just like what you find in any hospital, but while doctors typically apply gel to a patient's scalp and then attach the sensors that read the brain's faint electrical signals, the Epoc "neuroheadset" has 16 sensors embedded in its crossbars that communicate wirelessly with your PC. There are no messy smears or tangles of wires.
Emotiv and a rival Silicon Valley company, NeuroSky, initially are targeting the entertainment market. But both startups say they're in touch with companies in other industries, including manufacturers of TVs, medical devices, and automobiles. I'm not ready to drive a car using one of these gizmos. But if one of them can make my interactions with my PC more amicable, I'm all for it.
#1
Hopefully the improvement curve for this will be as high as it was for voice recognition software, which is a godsend to those that need it.
Ironically, the biggest problem with it will probably be the same--it won't be used as a subsystem in combination with other technologies, but only developed for just one use.
For example, both Dragon and IBM have extremely good voice-to-text recognition software. But even though it's widely available, neither have dreamed of incorporating its commonly available opposite, text-to-speech synthesis.
How big a philosophical jump is it, if you talk to a computer, to want it to talk back to you?
Now imagine if a system like this was blended together with both speech-to-text and text-to-speech? This is a major principle of communication, using several parallel systems to send and receive data.
For example, when you talk on the phone, you receive two channels of information: voice data and emotional context.
But when you talk to someone in person, you also get to see their non-verbal communications, such as hand gestures, that further improve communications. By looking at their eyes you can tell several subtle things as well.
So this is what they should shoot for. Typing, mouse clicking, talking, thinking, emotions. And having your computer talk to you back. All help get the message through.
#2
"No messy smears or tangles of wires" > Read, UNDER THE SKIN andor INTERNAL IMPLANTATION(S) WITHIN THE HUMAN BODY.
See C2CAM.
Oh for that special time of the year when Govt. Agencies' fancy turns to their favorite Mafias and Special Interests for PDeniable, Third-Party Legal Fraud/Legal Crime, Non-Consensual human experimentation in the name of National Security, Progress, + "Balancing the Books" etc. to $$$ profit while also staying out of Fort Leavenworth military prison.
D *** NG IT, GOVT. CAN'T PASS LEGISLATIONS AUTHORIZING MAFIOSI AND CRIMINALS, ETC. TO WORK FOR AND RETIRE AT FULL GOVT + TAXPAYER EXPENSE - THAT WOULD BE G*** D**** HONEST AND ETHICAL! HOW CAN HONEST GOVT. + INSTITUTIONS FUNCTION PROPERLY IFF THEY CAN'T COVERTLY KILL, INJURE OR DESTROY HONEST CITIZENS AT THEIR LEISURE, LET ALONE BE HELD RESPONSIBLE AND PAY FOR IT!
#3
This is AMERIKA, D *** NG IT, NOT AMERICA - don't force me to send SHANNEN DOUGHERTY from "BEVERLY HILLS, USSA, 90210" after youse by her engaging in monogamous sex and actually having having a successful movie career!
The turbines at Moss Landing power plant on the California coast burn through natural gas to pump out more than 1,000 megawatts of electric power. The 700-degree Fahrenheit (370-degree Celsius) fumes left over contain at least 30,000 parts per million of carbon dioxide (CO2)the primary greenhouse gas responsible for global warmingalong with other pollutants.
Today, this flue gas wafts up and out of the power plant's enormous smokestacks, but by simply bubbling it through the nearby seawater, a new California-based company called Calera says it can use more than 90 percent of that CO2 to make something useful: cement.
It's a twist that could make a polluting substance into a way to reduce greenhouse gases. Cement, which is mostly commonly composed of calcium silicates, requires heating limestone and other ingredients to 2,640 degrees F (1,450 degrees C) by burning fossil fuels and is the third largest source of greenhouse gas pollution in the U.S., according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Making one ton of cement results in the emission of roughly one ton of CO2and in some cases much more.
While Calera's process of making calcium carbonate cement wouldn't eliminate all CO2 emissions, it would reverse that equation. "For every ton of cement we make, we are sequestering half a ton of CO2," says crystallographer Brent Constantz, founder of Calera. "We probably have the best carbon capture and storage technique there is by a long shot."
Posted by: Bobby ||
08/11/2008 09:41 ||
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#1
Interesting.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/11/2008 10:07 Comments ||
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#2
This isn't going to be feasible in too many places. You make cement near where you use it, it's just too expensive to transport.
#4
There are a lot of coal fired plants reasonably near the ocean so this technology could be ramped up fairly quickly.
A big concern is the properties of the cement product produced. While there are some applications which do not bear a substantial load, most cement is used in concrete elements that have to withstand serious compressive force. One of the problems in using fly ash in cement has been getting a cement product that cures quickly and has good strength.
#6
Cement is funny stuff. As it hardens, it forms long molecular chains that make it hard, but brittle.
The formation of these chains can be prevented by adding a relatively small amount of sugar (sucrose) to the mix.
A fact used by the CIA to ruin enemy concrete edifices. They look fine until the first rain, but the cement is water soluble. So somebody just dumps 10 pounds of table sugar into the concrete mixer when nobody is looking. Who guards a concrete mixer?
Conversely, cement can be made extraordinarily strong by adding carbon nanotube fiber. A blow from a 10 pound sledge hammer might scuff it, but little more. This is the future for combat military buildings.
The biggest practical problem faced by concrete is erosion, because of heat, cold, wind, water and ice, acids and bases, and physical stresses.
The most resilient coating to protect concrete are silica glasses. However much is still unknown about why glass behaves the way it does. The pursuit of concrete glazes and silica coatings and paints has been going on for centuries.
(I noted an interesting innovation used in colonial Hawaii, where through a forgotten process, beach sand was mixed with a durable paint to protect a plantation house. The paint and house are still in good condition after over 100 years in very erosive conditions.)
The other major problem is mortar. The purpose of mortar is to provide as level as possible a surface for cement, as it is particularly susceptible to stresses other than compression.
But mortar erodes very quickly compared to cement, in most circumstances, and nobody has ever figured out how to make a very durable mortar. Again, carbon nanotubes may help, but the underlying matrix might be inherently weak.
Some trees (because of their roots) are excellent at sequestering CO2. However, trees also absorb solar radiation much less than most bare ground.
The math works out (or at least the current consensus says) that a rule-of-thumb is that trees planted between about 25 degrees of the equator have a net cooling effect on the planet, trees between 25 and 35 are a wash and poleward of 35, trees heat the planet (of course there are exceptions to this).
#10
Al Gore wouldn't approve the planting of trees -- until he can get a cut of the take (see 'Carbon Credits'...) either by taxing the planting of trees or taxing the absorption of CO2. Same for the Democrats.
#11
I recently read about some Indian fellow that came up with cement that absorbs Co2 in the air. I guess until it's saturated, who knows. Some Belgian town was gonna use it on roads as a test.
Imagine modified Concrete, a Roman invention, being used to clean up the environment. How odd is that?
#12
(CO2)--the primary greenhouse gas responsible for global warming
Water vapor is the #1 "greenhouse gas," and CO2 doesn't cause "global warming," it is a lagging indicator. But thanks for playing "Repeat the lies often enough and somebody just might believe them!"
#13
On a not-necessarily-unrelated note, a old theory about the construx of Guam's ancient Latte Stones was that these may had been made from primitive but potent form of concrete [frame + silica + seawater/water + heat]. Although this theory has been mostly discounted over the decades by local academic scholars, espec vee ground-based Chisel/Shaping- and Heat Pits, the issue of how Guam's ancient Chamorros dev and contructed their Latte Stones remains under intense debate. IFF ANCIENT EGYPTIANS [new Pyramid Theory] AND INDIGENS INDIAN CULTURES, ETC. CAN DO IT, i.e. DEV "CONCRETE" WIDOUT OUTSIDE HELP OR INFLUENCE, WHY NOT PACIFIC ISLANDERS!?
Lest we fergit, GIZA PYRAMID DEV THEORY > DID ANCIENT EGYPTIANS GET THEIR PYRAMID KNOWLEDGE FROM INTERACTION/TRADE WID ANCIENT INDIAN CULTURES???
Muslim-majority Malaysia's government has accused a Christian newspaper of breaking publication rules by running articles deemed political and insulting to Islam, and warned it of stern action, officials said Monday. The reprimand underscores the tenuous position of minority religions in multiethnic Malaysia amid a growing number of interfaith disputes. Christians, Buddhists and Hindus complain that their rights are being undermined by government efforts to bolster the status of Islam, the country's official religion.
The Home Ministry sent a letter to the Herald's publishers warning that its editions in June had "committed offenses" by highlighting Malaysian politics and current affairs instead of Christian issues for which it has been given a license. All publications and other media outlets in Malaysia are required to possess government licenses that must be renewed every year. The letter, a copy of which was obtained by The Associated Press, accused the Herald of carrying an article that "could threaten public peace and national security" because it allegedly "denigrated Islamic teachings."
The Reverend Lawrence Andrew, editor of the Herald, the Roman Catholic Church's main publication in Malaysia, denied the newspaper had overstepped its boundaries. "We comment on issues. The Pope comments on issues. It's normal for us to have an ethical interpretation" of current events and politics, Andrew said. "I don't think we were in any way going against the type of content we have chosen." He also denied that an article titled "America and Jihad -- Where do they stand?" had mocked Islam, saying it was an analysis of circumstances following the September 11, 2001, attacks in the United States.
The ministry's letter warned it "would not hesitate to take sterner action" if the Herald repeats its alleged offenses. It did not provide details, but a ministry official said the Herald must satisfactorily explain why it ran the articles and pledge to stick by the rules. If the newspaper refuses, the ministry will likely suspend its publication, the official said on condition of anonymity because she was not authorized to make public statements.
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
