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Democrats To Widen Conflict With Bush
Today's Headlines
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Page 1: WoT Operations
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Page 4: Opinion
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'Walking dead' cross line into Afghanistan to kill
Gazing out at the wheat fields, a haggard police chief pointed to the distant goat paths leading from Pakistan's territory of North Waziristan. Known here as "Osama bin Laden's children" or "the walking dead," nearly two dozen suicide bombers entered Khost province over those paths in the past year.
"The only thing left of them after they are done is two feet and a lot of skin," said Maj. Bismullah, a local police chief who, like many Afghans, uses only one name. "If we get a finger, we have to send it to Kabul to analyze the prints."
Orphaned by war and schooled in anti-American religious madrassas, the bombers often smile for a final video testament in Pakistan before walking or riding to their deaths in Afghanistan. As new explosives technology and tactics from the war in Iraq arrive in this remote corner of South Asia, suicide bombing attacks in the past 12 months have more than quadrupled from fewer than half a dozen in the previous year.
At least some of the bombers cross the border with a blessing from Ayman al-Zawahri, bin Laden's bespectacled
Bespectacled? Way to soften Screech's image there. Bah.
ideological lieutenant, said Lutfullah Mashal, a senior intelligence official with Afghanistan's National Security Council.
Afghan and U.S. officials say the bombers are trained in Waziristan, a tribal-administered border region of Pakistan. Several weeks of reporting along the rugged border suggests that al Qaeda and its affiliates are regrouping with charitable funds from Gulf Arab states, assistance from rogue elements of Pakistan's intelligence services and profits from the heroin trade.
Pakistan, which sanctioned U.S. bombing raids on suspected al Qaeda hide-outs last year, has all but retreated from its effort to fight the Taliban and al Qaeda in border areas, say Western diplomats.
Instead, it has signed peace deals last year leaving enforcement of local security to pro-Taliban elders in North and South Waziristan. A similar deal was concluded last week for the similarly lawless Bajaur district farther north.
Mr. Mashal criticized Pakistan's embattled President Pervez Musharraf for signing the latest deal. After the signing, Taliban leaders warned Pakistani security forces and U.S. forces to "avoid interference" in their internal affairs.
In sunny Khost province, where the governor's guards stand at attention with fresh flowers in their hair, the spate of suicide bombings has altered shopping habits and angered residents.
Suicide bombing was unheard of during the long war against Soviet forces in the 1980s, when locals prided themselves on their skill in shooting down Soviet helicopters, rows of which still line the edge of the airport here.
As elsewhere in the Islamic world, al Qaeda is usually a facilitator of terrorism, rarely the direct instigator. Bin Laden's operatives exploit anti-American sentiment within home-grown Islamist groups and dispatch young men over the mountains toward martyrdom.
Al Qaeda and Taliban leaders in nearby Pakistani community of Miram Shah, mimicking similar martyrdom celebrations in the West Bank and parts of the Arab world, throw lavish parties for the families of the suicide bombers.

Posted by: Elmavith Fluck6403 || 04/02/2007 09:39 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6491 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Nice find, Elmavith Fluck6403. I don't have a mod colour but, if I did, here's where I'd put these few thoughts:

Known here as "Osama bin Laden's children" or "the walking dead,"

Orphaned by war and schooled in anti-American religious madrassas,
I shouldn't think most were orphaned by war, but that their parents were happy to send them to the free madrassa. Nor is the schooling in anti-Americanism, but anti everything that isn't their particular overstrict Muslim way. Half a decade ago, after all, these were the students who came down the goat paths to become Taliban and shoot women who painted their toenails.

al Qaeda and its affiliates are regrouping with charitable funds from Gulf Arab states, assistance from rogue elements of Pakistan's intelligence services and profits from the heroin trade.
Not that we didn't know that, but it's nice to see a newsman write it out plainly for his readers. My only quibble is that I'd argue it isn't rogue elements of the ISI but its senior officers.

In sunny Khost province...the spate of suicide bombings has altered shopping habits and angered residents.
Anger is the first step. Then blame those who train, arm and send Osama's Children, then do something against them. Then we'll have won the battle on the Afghan front.
Posted by: trailing wife || 04/02/2007 10:59 Comments || Top||

#2  "Braaaaaaains!"
Posted by: mojo || 04/02/2007 11:07 Comments || Top||

#3  The headline needs a tweak:

'Walking dead' cross line into Afghanistan to kill get killed
Posted by: Mike || 04/02/2007 12:25 Comments || Top||

#4  'Walking dead' cross line into Afghanistan to kill murder.
Posted by: Bright Pebbles in Blairistan || 04/02/2007 12:29 Comments || Top||

#5  The only alternative is bomb the north and south Wazoo into the stone age.
Posted by: anonymous || 04/02/2007 13:10 Comments || Top||

#6  Wazoo left the stone age?
Posted by: 3dc || 04/02/2007 13:49 Comments || Top||

#7  That would take a firecracker, #5, since they never left it.

In fact, I'm not so sure they've even come that far.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 04/02/2007 14:10 Comments || Top||

#8  The only alternative is bomb the north and south Wazoo into the stone age

No need for bombs. Just shut off the cell phone towers.
Posted by: gorb || 04/02/2007 14:30 Comments || Top||

#9  That would take a firecracker, #5, since they never left it.

Heh, heh, damned cold Barb.
Posted by: Shipman || 04/02/2007 17:28 Comments || Top||

#10  Ship; Heh, heh, damned cold Barb.

yea Barb, you getum the Ice Princess Prize on thatr one! ;-)
Posted by: Red Dog || 04/02/2007 20:09 Comments || Top||

#11  "The Immortals" from 300??? On the HISTORY CHANNEL they look like ghostly, Killer/Warrior-Shadows, well-armed but unfortunately not well-armored vv the 300 Spartans = Greek hoplites.
Posted by: JosephMendiola || 04/02/2007 23:08 Comments || Top||

Taliban hangs three men
Taliban has announced it hanged three men in the small town of Musa Qala in south of Afghanistan. The town has been controlled by Taliban for two months now. Taliban claims responsibility for the incident, announced a commander of the group, who identified himself as Mullah Nizam. He said the three were found guilty of espionage in a Taliban court.

One body was strung up in the center of the town and the other two at its entrances. "They confessed they were spying for the government and foreign forces. We hanged them to set an example for others not to spy on us," Nizam said.

He claimed the three had in particular spied on late commander Mullah Abdul Manan, whose forces took control of the town early February. Manan was killed February 11 in a precision air strike by NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), which is attempting to fight a growing Taliban insurgency. Afghan police forces have been particularly hard-hit this year, as they comprise the bulk of more than 130 members of Afghan security forces killed by the Taliban.
This article starring:
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6479 views] Top|| File under:

#1  How to make friends and influence people.
Posted by: trailing wife || 04/02/2007 15:20 Comments || Top||

Africa Horn
60 killed in Darfur clash
About 60 people have been killed and 21 wounded in an attack on an Arab tribe in the war-torn Darfur region of western Sudan, the victims' relatives said. "We buried 23 people on Saturday and then during the night another 37 bodies were left in the morgue of Nyala hospital" in southern Darfur, Mohammed Hammad Jalali, a chief of the targeted Torjam tribe, told AFP.

Thirteen people wounded are being treated in the provincial capital of Nyala and another eight in the nearby town of Kas, he said. Tribal members say gunmen riding camels and donkeys swooped down on their villages to steal livestock. Abdel Rahman Hasaballah, also from the Torjam tribe, backed up the casualty figures and added the relatives were refusing to retrieve the corpses and had assembled in front of provincial offices to demand better protection.

Local officials quoted by the press said it was the work of a rival Arab tribe in the region, the Rzigat Aballa. "We think the Rzigat Aballa is responsible for the attack because it occurred in the area of recent clashes between the two tribes," said Mohammed Al-Ajeb, adding some 500 heads of cattle had been seized and driven northwest.

Authorities had negotiated a truce between the two tribes in February after several earlier confrontations. Envoys from the United Nations and African Union on their last visits to Khartoum bidding to find a peaceful solution to the Darfur crisis warned against tribal rivalries complicating the search for peace.
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6497 views] Top|| File under:

#1  They understand tribal complications in Darfur but not in Iraq. Hmm...
Posted by: Mike N. || 04/02/2007 0:49 Comments || Top||

Fighting rages in Mogadishu
MORTAR bombs crashed into central Mogadishu today and Uganda said its first peacekeeper had been killed there as battles pitting Ethiopian and Somali troops against insurgents raged for a fourth day. Clan leaders fighting alongside Islamist hardliners called for a second truce in as many weeks, but hundreds more Ethiopian soldiers were reported to be arriving in the city and there was no let-up in clashes that have killed scores of civilians. Bodies lay strewn in dusty streets, too dangerous to collect amid violence that the International Committee of the Red Cross said was the coastal capital's worst in more than 15 years. Ethiopian tanks and helicopter gunships pounded insurgent strongholds as Islamist rebels and clan militiamen fired back with machineguns, missiles and rocket-propelled grenades.

Ugandan peacekeepers sent at the head of an African Union (AU) force last month to help Somalia's interim government restore stability have been caught in the crossfire, pinned down at strategic sites including the air and sea ports. "Our troops were guarding the presidential compoundv yesterday when it was struck by mortars. One of our soldiers was killed," Ugandan military spokesman Major Felix Kulayigye said by telephone from Kampala. Five others were injured. Previous ambushes by insurgents that wounded two Ugandans had already made other African states wary of flying in more men to boost the AU force to its planned strength of 8000. Burundi, Malawi, Ghana and Nigeria have all pledged to send troops. A Nigerian army spokesman said its soldiers were ready to go once final details were agreed with the AU. He gave no date.

Fighting broke out yesterday with a barrage of artillery shells striking residential neighbourhoods around the main soccer stadium - the site of some of the heaviest exchanges since the Ethiopian offensive was launched on Friday. Hundreds of Ethiopian reinforcements drove into the city today, passing through the southern outskirts in some 40 trucks, independent Somali broadcaster Shabelle reported. More had crossed the border from Ethiopia, it said.

The fighting shattered a brief and shaky truce between the Ethiopians and leaders of the city's dominant clan, the Hawiye. Hawiye elders today called for a new ceasefire, for Ethiopian forces to withdraw and for international help burying the dead and treating the wounded.
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6477 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Not so long ago in history, it was common practice when one conquered a city, to kill all males of military age and replace them with settlers from loyal areas. You didn't have to worry about uprisings for at least a generation or two after that.
Posted by: crosspatch || 04/02/2007 2:22 Comments || Top||

#2  and replace them with settlers from loyal areas

... who then married the leftover local women or took them as concubines and slaves. Or else (Roman tradition) trucked the women and children across the empire to sell them as slaves far from home. The former sounds like the method Mohammed used, the latter by modern day Sudanese Arabs.
Posted by: trailing wife || 04/02/2007 15:25 Comments || Top||

#3  You might want to read this article over at Hot Air. What I feel is happening is that the Jihadis are taking the rules of war back a thousand years. And we can't counter them using modern rules. In other words, they don't play by the Geneva Convention rules and to tell you the truth, we could execute insurgents in civilian clothes and be within the Geneva Conventions. We are trying to be nice, and they are using against us. They will melt into the backgroud and pretend to be civilians knowing we won't hurt them. Then they will attack again as soon as our gaze has shifted. It was this kind of fighting by un-uniformed individuals in more of a mob than an army that lead to tactics such as simply killing all military aged males. The jihadis tale that even farther ... they just kill everyone they can. According to the conventions, that behavior is illegal and people using those tactics do not enjoy the protections afforded by the conventions. It might be time to stop giving it to them.

We have painted ourselves culturally into a corner where the only choice we have are "civilized" rules. It is like the British fighting the Americans in our Revolution. We didn't fight by "the rules" and we slaughtered them. Now someone is doing it to us.
Posted by: crosspatch || 04/02/2007 20:58 Comments || Top||

Home Front: WoT
Terrorists – coming to a school near you
Police ill-equipped to defend against an American Beslan

Authorities fear the school massacre that shook Russia a few years ago may be a dress rehearsal for what al-Qaida plans to do in America – only on a grander scale, launching multiple school attacks simultaneously across the country.

In 2004, Chechen terrorists associated with al-Qaida seized a school building in Beslan, Russia, and slaughtered 338, including 172 children.

Three years later, schools and local police in this country are still unprepared to deal with such an assault, experts warn. Most don't have response plans for handling a single active shooter, let alone a cell of trained terrorists launching a large-scale attack.

Yet terror cells secreted inside America may be planning to use buses, as well as other vehicles and methods, as a Trojan horse to infiltrate school campuses and massacre students and teachers.

The FBI and Homeland Security Department last month distributed a bulletin to law enforcement across the country warning that Muslims with "ties to extremist groups" are signing up to be school bus drivers. They also noted "recent suspicious activity" by foreigners who either drive school buses or are licensed to drive them.

"The enemy is infiltrating us at all levels, and certainly school bus drivers are one area to look at," warned retired Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, president of Killology Research Group, an anti-terror consultancy that trains the FBI and other law enforcement. "And how about high school, middle school and elementary school cafeteria workers? Janitors? Delivery people?"

Grossman says some school district security officials he works with have expressed concerns about some of the Muslim employees schools are hiring.

"But no one dares profile them," he told WND.

"Islamic terrorists are already in place in the U.S. and, yes, that includes bus drivers, cafeteria workers and also airport workers," added Grossman, a former Army Ranger and West Point professor.

Floor plans for schools in Virginia, Texas and New Jersey have been recovered from terrorist hands in Iraq, he notes. Videotapes confiscated in Afghanistan show al-Qaida terrorists practicing the takeover of a school.

More at link:
Posted by: Thick Gloluck4548 || 04/02/2007 21:09 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6474 views] Top|| File under:

LeT threat to Dalai Lama's life?
Exiled Tibetan spiritual leader Dalai Lama’s security was tightened on Sunday following reports about a threat to his life from the Lashkar-e-Toiba. News agency UNI quoted Additional Superintendent of Police (Headquarters) Prem Lal as saying in Shimla that though the Tibetan leader's security had not been beefed up, the personnel posted at his Mcleodganj residence were asked to remain alert.

A local Hindi newspaper had reported about the threat to the exiled leader’s life, following which action was taken. Lal, however, denied receiving any intelligence report about such a threat and said the Tibetan leader's security was tightened as a precautionary measure.
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6497 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I don't think the Buddhists would take kindly to the Dalai Lama getting wacked.
Posted by: Steve || 04/02/2007 7:27 Comments || Top||

#2  Le T hates everyone who is not muslim.Unfortunately they are backed by Perv&Co!!!!
Posted by: Ebbolump Glomotle9608 || 04/02/2007 7:58 Comments || Top||

#3  Richard Gere won't take this lying down.
Posted by: doc || 04/02/2007 9:15 Comments || Top||

#4  It was this asshat Dalai Lama who asserted that islam is a RoP not that long ago. Just look up this thread here in Rantburg.
Posted by: Duh! || 04/02/2007 9:21 Comments || Top||

#5  The Kalachakra Tantra, which this Dalai Lama is quite fond of, prophesies a civilizational war with the religion from Mecca.

Eight hundred years in the future, namely in 624 CE, a non-Indic religion will arise in Mecca. Because of a lack of unity among the brahmans’ people and laxity in following correctly the injunctions of their Vedic scriptures, many will accept this religion, far in the future, when its leaders threaten an invasion.

The Non-Indic Invaders

As the founding of Islam dates from in 622 CE, two years before Kalachakra’s predicted date, most scholars identify the non-Indic religion with that faith. Descriptions of the religion elsewhere in the Kalachakra texts as having the slaughter of cattle while reciting the name of its god, circumcision, veiled women, and prayer five times a day facing its holy land reinforce their conclusion.

The First Kalki further described the future non-Indic religion as having a line of eight great teachers: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mani, Muhammad, and Mahdi. Muhammad will come to Baghdad in the land of Mecca. This passage helps to identify the invaders within the Islamic community.

The Prophesy of an Apocalyptic War

The First Kalki predicted that the followers of the non-Indic religion will some day rule India. From their capital in Delhi, their king Krinmati will attempt the conquest of Shambhala in 2424 CE. The commentaries suggest that Krinmati will be recognized as the messiah Mahdi. The Twenty-fifth Kalki, Raudrachakrin, will then invade India and defeat the non-Indics in a great war. His victory will mark the end of the kaliyuga – “the age of disputes,” during which Dharma practice will degenerate. Afterwards, a new golden age will fol­low during which the teachings will flourish, especially those of Kala­chakra.
Posted by: John Frum || 04/02/2007 15:16 Comments || Top||

#6  from wikipedia

The Kalachakra Tantra has occasionally been a source of controversy in the west because the text contains passages which are sometimes interpreted as demonizing the Abrahamic religions, particularly Islam. This is principally because it contains the prophecy of a "holy" war between Buddhists and so-called "barbarians" (Skt. mleccha). Upon close inspection, however, it is clear that the Buddha was not preaching against any particular tradition but rather against intolerance, hatred, violence and war in the name of any organized religion. All mainline Buddhist traditions teach tolerance of other religions (so long as they do not endorse harming beings as a precept of their religion) as well as the avoidance of harm by all Buddhists. This prophecy could be understood to refer in part to the Islamic incursions into central Asia and India which deliberately destroyed the Buddhist religion in those regions. The prophecy includes detailed descriptions of the future invaders as well as suggested (non-violent) ways for the Buddhist teachings to survive these onslaughts. (see e-book, The Historical Interaction between the Buddhist and Islamic Cultures before the Mongol Empire by Alexander Berzin at [1]. See also Will Durant, "The Story of Civilization" Volume 1.)
Posted by: John Frum || 04/02/2007 15:19 Comments || Top||

#7  To think that islam can last another 400 years with the sort of weighty Karma it has created for itself! Get prepared for a Martian landscape on Earth.
Posted by: Duh! || 04/02/2007 16:14 Comments || Top||

#8  Sad thing is, Buddhist really wouldn't do much, because fighting isn't their thing.
Posted by: Jesing Ebbease3087 || 04/02/2007 17:02 Comments || Top||

#9  Ummm... Read up on the history of southeast Asia. Asks the Chams if you need details.

And maybe Pol Pot.
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 17:53 Comments || Top||

#10  pshaw! There were no deaths in Cambodia, John Kerry and Jane said so... besides, they deserved it, due to our adventures and imperialism in VN, and ...er.....someone else did it

/Extreme Sarc.....
Posted by: Frank G || 04/02/2007 20:07 Comments || Top||

#11  Pol Pot was a communist, not a buddhist! Big Difference
Posted by: Jesing Ebbease3087 || 04/02/2007 23:55 Comments || Top||

Indian agencies get info of 'militant attack' on summit
Indian intelligence agencies have received information that four Sikh and Islamist militant organisations are planning to attack New Delhi targeting the 14th Saarc summit to be held on April 3 and 4 in the Indian capital, according to an Indian news report. With the Saarc preparatory meetings already underway, the intelligence interception of a conversation between four militant organisations, including Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), has set off alarm bells among the summit organisers as it is being seen as a serious threat.

Security is expected to be beefed up in the adjoining areas to pre-empt any possible threat to the summit that will be attended by the eight leaders of Saarc countries and also by the foreign ministers of China, Japan and South Korea, reports the Times of India. The news report states that according to the intercepted message, a meeting was held at the house of a senior leader of Babbar Khalsa International (BKI), a Sikh militant group that was responsible for two simultaneous attacks in Delhi in 2005. Representatives from the UK-based Muslim-Sikh Council, Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) and Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) attended the meeting.

The newspaper quotes a senior security officer as saying that in the intercepted message, the four militant groups discussed possible infiltration into India via the sea-route. It is being seen as a serious threat in the wake of a recent seizure of arms and explosives in the Indian southern coast in February, the officer said, adding that LeT sought assistance from BKI to carry out the attacks, which involved two LeT men to target the summit in New Delhi.

The newspaper also quotes other intelligence agencies as saying that the militants have been trained to act like human bombs and would flee to Kashmir after the attacks. The 13th Saarc Summit in Dhaka was cancelled in February 2005 due to security concerns. Until now eight Saarc summits have been cancelled.
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6476 views] Top|| File under:

Iraqi MP escapes assassination attempt
An Iraqi lawmaker has escaped unscathed from a roadside bomb attack that wounded two of his bodyguards. Omar Abdul Sattar, from the Iraqi Islamic Party, was traveling in a convoy when the bomb exploded near the vehicles and party office in Baghdad on Sunday, AFP reported. "He escaped unhurt but two of his bodyguards were wounded," said one official, adding that the attack happened in the capital's Yarmuk district.

Sattar is the second senior official in Iraq's government to be the target of an assassination attempt in less than 10 days. Deputy Prime Minister Salam Al-Zubayi was wounded on March 24 in a double bomb attack near his residence in Baghdad. He had to undergo surgery in a U.S. combat hospital and is now recuperating in Jordan.
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6473 views] Top|| File under:

Suicide vests found in Baghdad's Green Zone
Two suicide vests have been found unexploded in the heavily fortified Green Zone in Baghdad less than a week after a rocket attack killed two Americans in the vast central area. U.S. military spokesman Rear Adm. Mark Fox said the vests were found Saturday and the matter was under investigation, adding, "It reflects the nature of the security challenge that we're facing," AP reported.

Meanwhile, two Americans - a contractor and a soldier - were killed in a rocket attack on the Green Zone on Tuesday. Insurgents routinely fire rockets and mortars into the Green Zone, the nominally secure area in central Baghdad that is site of the U.S. embassy and the Iraqi government and parliament. The attacks seldom cause casualties or damage because they are poorly aimed and the zone contains much open space.
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6518 views] Top|| File under:

#1  teenager with issues in aisle #1, clean up please.
Posted by: anonymous || 04/02/2007 1:39 Comments || Top||

#2  Suicide vests found in Baghdad's Green Zone

Iraqi government officials are allowed to hire their own bodyguards who then have access to parts of the Green Zone.

I hope Verlane will fill us in as to how the secured areas work in the GZ [OP SEC filtered of course]
Posted by: anonymous || 04/02/2007 1:51 Comments || Top||

#3  Well OPSEC is robust here, as in addition to being careful of course I am also surely unaware of many of the measures used to secure the IZ. Last week in my comment on the reportedly busted bomb plot I noted that private security already handled the Convention Center entrances, and of course they also are part of the solution at various other locations inside the IZ.

Entry to the IZ itself is the key, and that's handled by a mix of MNF-I and Iraqi elements, with multiple layers - all of this is well-known in Baghdad as many Iraqis travel in/out of the IZ. The key problem seems to be the Iraqi security elements attached to Iraqi politicians and officials. I recall the first scare of this kind (public) last year, and it was connected to an Iraqi bodyguard unit. But I really don't know a lot of the details, naturally.

Bomb-vests inside the IZ certainly move the pucker-factor up a notch or two.

The recent indirect fire deaths are awful and surely are just a case of very bad luck - I'd have to guess the % of indirect fire atttacks that produce casualties is extremely low, based on my time there. (All info that follows was publicly reported at the time these things happened) Two US personnel were killed by a rocket shortly after my arrival in '05 - I don't recall any other major injuries from indirect fire until towards the end of my time, when two local nationals were killed by a rocket and in a separate incident an Australian soldier was seriously wounded by a rocket.

The article gets it right - the IZ is mostly empty space, so odds are the incoming will hit nothing in particular, and that's the usual result.

Truth is, the only time I felt a bit scared (more rushed to take cover than scared) was when Iraq won a soccer game in December '05 and the happy fire from across the river was spectacular. Was fairly interesting trying to figure out what was going on at first.

They even used to put out security advisories when the potential for happy fire from sporting or political events could be forecast.

Posted by: Verlaine || 04/02/2007 2:46 Comments || Top||

#4  thanks Verlaine, much appreciated fill in.
Posted by: Red Dog || 04/02/2007 2:57 Comments || Top||

#5  Would it be better if we just eliminated Phagdad and rebuilt the town on the other side of ther rivers...you pick a direction either way we win.
Save us a lot of time blood and money...that would be the time to walk away...
Are we getting our moneys worth here or does 16 cents a gallon for gas in phagdad seem unfair...
$3.11 here behind the orange curtain..
Posted by: Mohammed was a pedophile || 04/02/2007 1:07 Comments || Top||

Half U.S. troop surge already in Iraq
Despite the next year's withdrawal timetable approved by both houses of U.S. Congress, a senior U.S. military official says nearly half of the 30,000 additional U.S. troops demanded by George W. Bush have already been deployed to Iraq. "The rest were either in staging areas in neighboring Kuwait or on their way, "Rear Admiral Mark Fox Sunday told a joint news conference in Baghdad." We expect the remainder to be in place by early June."

Fox further said there are about 140,000 U.S. troops in Iraq at the time being. Most of the troops have been sent to Baghdad. The rest have been sent to the western province of al-Anbar. Iraqi army Brigadier Qassim Mussawi, spokesman for the Baghdad security operation, for his part said the Iraqi Army would continue the neighborhood-to-neighborhood sweep that began in Baghdad on Feb. 14, urging the Iraqi people to cooperate.

Mussawi claimed the violence had decreased in Baghdad and terrorists were pushed into corner. "The terrorists went to the surrounding areas and these areas are breeding grounds for violence ... tribal leaders are carrying operations against them,'' he said.
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6488 views] Top|| File under:

Gunmen kidnap 19 Iraqis
Gunmen have kidnapped 19 civilians north of Baghdad on Sunday after stopping cars at a fake checkpoint. The Iraqi police say those kidnapped, all men, were from a Shia village near the city of Baquba, 55 kilometers northeast of Baghdad. They said the gunmen were wearing civilian clothes and carrying automatic weapons. Iraqiya state television also reported 19 people had been kidnapped in the area, although it gave few details.

Gunmen kidnapped 14 policemen near Baquba, the provincial capital of Diyala province, a month ago. They were later found dead, all having been shot in the head.
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6496 views] Top|| File under:

Southeast Asia
Two killed in Thailand’s south
Suspected Islamic separatists operating in Thailand’s insurgency-torn south have shot and killed two Muslim men in separate attacks, police said yesterday.

A villager, 29, was shot dead Saturday night as he travelled home from a local mosque in Narathiwat, one of three southern provinces where more than 2,000 people have been killed in three years of separatist unrest. On Sunday morning, a 30-year-old volunteer solider was killed when a group of militants opened fire on his motorcycle as he drove to work in the same province.
Posted by: ryuge || 04/02/2007 07:11 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6493 views] Top|| File under:

USAF Probes Iranian Air Defense Response?
TEHRAN: US warplanes have violated Iranian airspace in the southwestern oil-rich province of Khuzestan, Al-Alam Arabic language news satellite channel quoted a local military chief as saying on Sunday. "Two aircraft trespassed into Iranian airspace northwest of [the southwestern port city of] Abadan before flying southwest into Iraq," a local Revolutionary Guards commander in Abadan identified only as Colonel Aqili was quoted as saying on the channel's Web site.

"The planes left white vapor trails, attracting the local people's attention," he said, giving no time of the incident.

No further information was available as The Daily Star went to press on the alleged violation, which if true could have significant ramifications for already tense relations between Iran and the United States.
Our stealth aircraft and drones are everywhere in the Persian skies. Oh look, over there Mahmoud, there's another one! You say you can't see it? Your bad. Keep looking.
Posted by: Glenmore || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6492 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Wow. The mods are fast this evening.
Posted by: Mike N. || 04/02/2007 0:21 Comments || Top||

#2  If we did probe their defenses, their defenses didn't defend. Most anyone with a brain wouldn't admit to not knowing foreign jets were in their airspace until "the locals reported a contrail", but we are talking about the Insanians.
Posted by: Mike N. || 04/02/2007 0:29 Comments || Top||

#3  I suppose they could always try apprehending them too. But I wouldn't advice it....
Posted by: CrazyFool || 04/02/2007 0:33 Comments || Top||

#4  Obviously it was UFOs
Posted by: Captain America || 04/02/2007 0:46 Comments || Top||

#5  Clean up on isle 4.
Posted by: Mike N. || 04/02/2007 0:46 Comments || Top||

#6  Butter on that popcorn?
Posted by: andrewNY || 04/02/2007 0:54 Comments || Top||

#7  Are the Iranians probing RB's defenses?
Posted by: Flolumble Elmuling1667 || 04/02/2007 1:36 Comments || Top||

#8  Are the Iranians probing RB's defenses?

not very hard to do we are an open blog. No registration no extra security.

On topic: It's hard to tell if these reports are started by fact or rumor. I guess we'll know if the flag goes up!
Posted by: anonymous || 04/02/2007 1:44 Comments || Top||

#9  If there were two planes in formation, they might be doing something other than probing air defenses. We would probably already have a pretty good idea of the locations of Iranian air defense RADAR units.
Posted by: crosspatch || 04/02/2007 2:29 Comments || Top||

#10  Hare's a clue:

You don't need to overfly to probe defenses.

1) If the enemy is doing their job, they will be painting you well before you get to a border.

2) damn near everything uses side looking recvr and so on - its something we inherited in design from the cold war to look deep over the iron curtain.

3) SIGINT basics. Side lobes of those search, altitude and tracking radars are better for interception than the main beam in some respects. Ask a signals guy about those things - an harmonics, pulse trains, jitter, etc.

So no Virginia, Santa Claus doesn't need to overfly you to probe the defenses. That's what Santa has satellites and for.

If there were US jets violating Iranian airspace, they were doing something other than probing.
Posted by: OldSpook || 04/02/2007 3:44 Comments || Top||

#11  (hit enter too soon)

Leaving contrails is pretty blatant. Thats what flight profile planning, etc prevent. This isn't United Airlines, the military does plan around those sorts of conditions so as to not give away the AC's position.

And since those left a contrail and didn't do anything its unlikely they were US jets (if they existed at all).
Posted by: OldSpook || 04/02/2007 3:47 Comments || Top||

#12  I am going with highly unlikely , this seems to me me like truthers. If an American plane was detected one of their sites would have been on fire
Posted by: Flolumble Elmuling1667 || 04/02/2007 3:55 Comments || Top||

#13  The planes were in Iranian airspace, just like the British sailors and Marines were in Iranian waters.

But why is Iran mentioning it, unless they want to rachet up the stress on oil prices?

When does the 12th imam come out of his hole in the ground?
Posted by: Bobby || 04/02/2007 6:09 Comments || Top||

#14  The 12th imam does his prairie dog imitation on Good Friday. The little alarm bell in my head that starts ringing when something big is going to happen is getting louder and more insistent the closer we get to that date.
Posted by: Jonathan || 04/02/2007 6:47 Comments || Top||

#15  Isn't CAIR or somebody offering a reward for "Islamophobic hatemongers" or similar types? I have an idea.
Let's sell them this Mu-Phag moby and donate the money to the JPFO.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 04/02/2007 6:51 Comments || Top||

#16  On topic. I sure hope it is true. Nothing bothers a bully more than seeing a parent with a big stick.
Posted by: Icerigger || 04/02/2007 8:04 Comments || Top||

#17  Our planes only leave contrails if we want them to, it's trivial to predict the altitude for that. So assuming it did happen, it was absolutely intentional. There are a lot of things we can detect with our satellites, but we can still gain a lot of useful information by drawing the Iranians into 'painting' our planes. IF it happened, it was definitely a probe of some sort. Or maybe it was just a 'Hey ya'll! we can violate your airspace at will and there ain't shit you can do about it'.
Posted by: AllahHateMe || 04/02/2007 8:32 Comments || Top||

#18  Hey Iran....

Posted by: DarthVader || 04/02/2007 9:22 Comments || Top||

#19  I never finished the book, but the thing I remember from it was the US in the early 1950's (before Francis Gary Powers and the U-2) used to fly B-47's over the pole and into Soviet airspace just for sport - because we knew they couldn't stop us.

I found that disturbing at the time I read it, but I hope that's what's going on here!
Posted by: Bobby || 04/02/2007 10:14 Comments || Top||

#20  If I know my Iranian Defense tactics (taken from the Arabs) most of their Air Defense radars are in the off position. The have their Air Traffic control stuff up because they have to but the military stuff is cold. Why? Because “IF” the UK/U.S. want to send the Mullahs an message via “Air Mail”, the Air Defense Radars are a juicy target. Also even though they talk a big game they don’t even want to appear to be aggressive against the U.S. Air Assets in the Persian Gulf. Finally, I would be surprised and disappointed if the military weren’t testing the Air Defenses ALL THE TIME. Heck you never know when you might need a clear route to Tehran or Qom.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge || 04/02/2007 10:22 Comments || Top||

#21  One more thing: the US planes you need to be worried about are the ones you can't see.
Posted by: Mike || 04/02/2007 10:27 Comments || Top||

#22  Only one plane is required to cause someone to activate AD RADAR. You don't expose two aircraft together when doing that and give an enemy two targets to hit. They would be doing something else and any RADAR data collected from it would be just gravy.
Posted by: crosspatch || 04/02/2007 11:00 Comments || Top||

#23  If we were gonna probe you or violate you, you'd know it.
U.S. Air Force
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 04/02/2007 13:50 Comments || Top||

#24  So if that was indeed an act of war, Mr. Iran, go ahead, make my day.
Posted by: USN, Ret. || 04/02/2007 14:16 Comments || Top||

#25  If this was a probe of Iranian Air Defense measures, we could have done it with a drone. The Israelis perfected this in the Bekah Valley back in the 1980s. They would send in an aerial drone and get the Lebanese to light up all their AD radars. Using telemetry, the drone would transmit those frequencies and coordinates back to the IAF so that the incoming wave of fighter bombers could be pre-programmed to spoof or jam those known RF bands. The Lebanese could not rekey their radars quickly enough and source guided missiles did the rest.
Posted by: Zenster || 04/02/2007 15:04 Comments || Top||

#26  Oh Lordy we are already hitting on the Perssians with the Dedley Chem-Trails.
Posted by: Shipman || 04/02/2007 17:30 Comments || Top||

#27  Wake me when the USAF probes Iran's response to things going KER-BLAM!!
Posted by: DMFD || 04/02/2007 18:46 Comments || Top||

#28  The Electric P-3C's and the EC130-135's are likely sniffing and probing constantly.
Posted by: anonymous || 04/02/2007 20:35 Comments || Top||

#29  I here the French are floating the Up-Chuck DeGual out there somewhere...
What does this mean? We get to sink a Gaul Aircraft Carrier and kill some little sheet heads.

One can only hope...
Posted by: Muhammad_is_a_Phag || 04/02/2007 0:09 Comments || Top||

#30  Wasn't he?
Posted by: Mohammed was a phag. || 04/02/2007 0:44 Comments || Top||

Don't ya think if we just killed every sheik mullah and well the rest of them we the planet would be so much better off. I know my children are going to be killing these little sheet heads in their future. Let's just do them a favor and get this over with...

oh no here comes my censor...Hey Uncle Joe..sorry Mr Stalin...
Posted by: Mohammed was a pedophile || 04/02/2007 1:01 Comments || Top||

Iranian officer reports incursion by US warplanes
Posted by: BrerRabbit || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6517 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Ah, but does Iranian airspace now cover parts of Iraq as well? Funny how the Iranians didn't engage...
Posted by: Howard UK || 04/02/2007 3:32 Comments || Top||

#2  Iranian airspace would include Kings Point, NY if they had their druthers.
Posted by: doc || 04/02/2007 8:09 Comments || Top||

#3  With GWB at the helm and San Fran Nan telling him what to do..I don't think there is a chance in the world anybody is going to anything about the Persians. The Prez has turned into a coward. Meek feeble pussy.
I mean really what do you have to loose by nuking the country....Ok 50 million people. But the left would feel good cause that is 50 million less people contributing to the carbon thingy...
Hey and they have oil two...
Wouldn't the 50 million dead mutant bodies contribute to the fossil fuel supply?
Just a question

I Muhammad_a_Phag to rough for this stalinist site...
Got to watch out these days. You never know who could be tracking your mac..
Posted by: Muhammad_is_a_Phag || 04/02/2007 0:15 Comments || Top||

U.S. planes violate Iran's airspace
Two U.S. airplanes have violated Iran's airspace, a top Iranian military official has said.
Salt to taste....
Colonel Aqili, commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) in the southwestern city of Abadan, Khuzestan province, said Sunday that the airplanes trespassed Iranian airspace from the northwest of the city and exited from its southwest on Saturday.

He said the U.S. airplanes had violated Iranian airspace several times in the past. "The planes cast out a white smoke trail, attracting the local people's attention," he added.
Must not be much to do there
Posted by: Ebbutch Gloque7780 || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6495 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Maybe we can get 3 UAVs or jets and have them lay some red, white, and blue airshow smoke for the people on the ground.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 04/02/2007 0:47 Comments || Top||

#2  Only two was it? Would you kindly doublecheck those metrics Colonel.
Posted by: Besoeker || 04/02/2007 5:11 Comments || Top||

#3  Moderators...

someone named "Mohammed was a phag: can't be all bad....
Posted by: Squinty Choluger1248 || 04/02/2007 15:03 Comments || Top||

#4  This shit holw site has gotten so PC..
Let's just kill them all. KillKILLKILL!!!
Not enought apparently by the head lines...
Wackjob is still talking and the US the UN and the Brits are in a total circle jerk.
My country has gone to shit...
Posted by: Mohammed was a phag. || 04/02/2007 0:49 Comments || Top||

Iran warns Bush not to talk unwisely over Britons' case
Iran's Foreign Ministry Spokesman Mohammad-Ali Hosseini has advised the U.S. President to avoid using unwise, legally unfounded rhetoric regarding the detention of 15 British soldiers for their illegal entry into Iran's territorial waters. In a statement released late on Sunday by the Iranian Foreign Ministry, Hosseini also recommended that the U.S. president listen and pay attention to what "his own government's Under-Secretary of States has said."

Hosseini's remark was an apparent reference to Under-Secretary of State Nicholas Burns testimony on Thursday before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee when he said the U.S. did not seek to provoke confrontation with Iran. The response by Tehran to Bush's stance over the British sailors' detention also reflected Iran's view that such comments by U.S. officials could unnecessarily bring closer the already volatile relations between the two countries to a critical, dangerous stage.

George W. Bush on Saturday labeled Iran's detention of 15 British Royal Navy personnel as "inexcusable" and the detainees as "hostages" after British Prime Minister Tony Blair sought support from Washington over UK troops' violation of international laws and regulations by trespassing into Iranian territory in the Persian Gulf.

Earlier on Sunday at a press conference, Hosseini had said Tehran was waiting to see a change in London's behavior and a reasonable approach toward its recent tension with Tehran. "We announced, in the statement, that two British vessels with 15 servicemen aboard trespassed into Iran's territorial waters on 23 March and reminded them of their similar actions in the past. We warned them against repeating such illegal moves in the future," Hosseini added.
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6480 views] Top|| File under:

#1  You get the feeling either:
1) They feel lucky, and feel the odds are with them...so go ahead and twist the tiger's tail while they can;
2) They are just stupid;
3) They are trying to provoke us.

My money is on #1.
Posted by: anymouse || 04/02/2007 0:19 Comments || Top||

#2  If there ever was a shitbag country that needed to be smacked, it's Iran.

Oh, and mouse, It's #1.

Posted by: Mike N. || 04/02/2007 0:25 Comments || Top||

#3  Can I pick more than one?
Posted by: gorb || 04/02/2007 0:41 Comments || Top||

#4  So Iran gets to dictate what is wisdom? Iran is in deep doo-doo but it is probably going to take a while to fully manifest. Honestly, by not reacting severely and simply treating Iran economically as if it were nothing more than a large lake on the map, the longer they hold those hostages, the worse things are going to get for them.

They are trying to recreate 1979 in order to rally their population around the government. But this isn't 1979 and the conditions that caused 1979 to happen don't exist now. This isn't going to last. And quite frankly, if the media organizations would simply pack it up and head home, it would end a lot sooner. The likes of CNN, wire services, TV networks, etc. are what are enabling this. Without the attention, the hostages would be of no use.

The media can end it, but they are making too much hay to do so. They aren't willing to kill a major story for the benefit of the people involved. They're just sick.
Posted by: crosspatch || 04/02/2007 0:58 Comments || Top||

#5  So now we have threats and demands. I call it terrorism, since this a Global War on the same..
Posted by: Flolumble Elmuling1667 || 04/02/2007 1:33 Comments || Top||

#6  The more frightened they are, the more they bluster. Amadinachodad is teetering on the edge, so he makes warnings and threats. Keep your eye on Good Friday.
Posted by: Jonathan || 04/02/2007 6:43 Comments || Top||

#7  very strong points crosspatch, you've identified the desparation of a government system that is broke. It cant be repaired, its a failed system that is plundering its population. The religous component keeps the cultural identity alive, but the economics are so backward that it has exposed the theft and appropriation by the religous component, further working up resentment within the broader population. No, iran is a broken state run by a bunch of larcenists using a bull horn....as their means of identifying themselves.....trouble is, its all output, and a system with no input, cant survive. nice job exposing the role of our extensible media as facilitators of the iran bullhorn.
Posted by: Jeremiah Glimp1292 || 04/02/2007 8:08 Comments || Top||

#8  very strong points crosspatch, you've identified the desparation of a government system that is broke. It cant be repaired, its a failed system that is plundering its population. The religous component keeps the cultural identity alive, but the economics are so backward that it has exposed the theft and appropriation by the religous component, further working up resentment within the broader population. No, iran is a broken state run by a bunch of larcenists using a bull horn....as their means of identifying themselves.....trouble is, its all output, and a system with no input, cant survive. nice job exposing the role of our extensible media as facilitators of the iran bullhorn.
Posted by: Jeremiah Glimp1292 || 04/02/2007 8:16 Comments || Top||

#9  As much as I'd like nothing better than to see Iran's ass kicked back into the Stone Age and that homo dwarf strung up from a lamppost, it's like they really WANT a war and will do almost anything to get it. I keep thinking of Galtieri and the Falklands crisis.
Posted by: Mac || 04/02/2007 9:17 Comments || Top||

#10  Any counter-propaganda being sent into Iran to stir up their domestic anti-mullacractic forces?
Posted by: eLarson || 04/02/2007 10:30 Comments || Top||

#11  Bite me, monkey-boy. Keep it up, you'll get yours.
Posted by: mojo || 04/02/2007 10:58 Comments || Top||

#12  Iran's Foreign Ministry Spokesman Mohammad-Ali Hosseini has advised the U.S. President to avoid using unwise, legally unfounded rhetoric

Oh, I thought that was Pelosi and Reid that said that...
Posted by: Capsu 78 || 04/02/2007 11:24 Comments || Top||

#13  #1 You get the feeling either:
1) They feel lucky, and feel the odds are with them...so go ahead and twist the tiger's tail while they can;
2) They are just stupid;
3) They are trying to provoke us.

All of the above.

I pray they find out just how stupid it is to twist tigers' tails. Losing a few cities to waves of BUFFS would tend to do that. I recommend Kharq Island, Busaher, Bandar Abbas, and Abadan - their principle oil-exporting ports.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 04/02/2007 12:59 Comments || Top||

#14  #4. Well crosspatch, on the surface what you're saying may seem true but keeping journalists out of this wouldn't end anything any sooner. The world needs a forum to speak to each other and it sounds like you want to kill the messenger for delivering the message. What an Iranian bureaucrat gets as a soundbite doesn't validate restricting free flowing information. If anything, with more media attention on these kooks, they'll dig themselves into more threats against us. Then when the inevitable is here, we can say " hey Iran, you shouldn't have been talking sh*t..."
Posted by: still here || 04/02/2007 13:07 Comments || Top||

#15  iran is a broken state run by a bunch of larcenists using a bull horn

Bingo, give the man a Kewpie doll! Great summary, JG.
Posted by: Zenster || 04/02/2007 16:01 Comments || Top||

#16  US Warns Iran It Has Nukes And They Don't (Yet)!

Posted by: FOTSGreg || 04/02/2007 18:07 Comments || Top||

British sailors admit 'intrusion'
ONE of the two British naval personnel featured on new footage aired on Iranian state television admitted to apparently entering Iranian territorial waters while another said he understood why Iran was angry about their intrusion. Footage aired on Sky News in Britain showed the pair with accompanying audio - which Iranian television has not broadcast - standing in front of an Iranian chart of the northern Gulf waters where the two, and 13 others, were seized on March 23.

Britain insists the eight sailors and seven marines were on a routine anti-smuggling patrol in Iraqi waters under a UN mandate, but the Islamic republic says they strayed into its territorial waters. The video shows Captain Chris Air speaking to the camera while pointing to the charts, saying that at "approximately about 10 o'clock in the morning, we were seized, apparently at this point here, from their maps, from the GPS they've shown us, which is inside Iranian territorial waters". Capt Air went on to say that thus far, the group, which includes one woman, had "been treated very well by all the people here".
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6508 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Heheh, it merely shows what big heads these mullahs have and scant disregard for anyone else's intelligience. They needed this s""t for themselves to feel good
Posted by: Duh! || 04/02/2007 9:51 Comments || Top||

#2  What the hell ever happened to name, rank and serial numbers?

Wonder if anyone has made a detailed animation of the GPS mapping. Think Hannity may have had one up for a short time.
Posted by: Icerigger || 04/02/2007 12:35 Comments || Top||

#3  I've been waiting for the Iraqi govt to condemn the kidnapping. Unless I've missed it, it doesn't look like its gonna happen.
Posted by: mhw || 04/02/2007 13:02 Comments || Top||

#4  The limeys sure are pussies these days...
I mean the capt says...ah ah ah....ah...where is my tea..
I am having a stressful day...I need to sodimize a ship mate. Hey Mick bend over and spread them...while Persians kidnap 15 of our own..
Nothing like ths smell of poo in the morning while your getting fucked ehhhh limeys
Posted by: Mohammed was a phag. || 04/02/2007 0:46 Comments || Top||

Iranians pelt UK embassy
Hundreds of students threw rocks and firecrackers at the British Embassy yesterday, calling for the expulsion of the country's ambassador because of the standoff over Iran's capture of 15 British sailors and marines. The demonstration stood in stark contrast to statements made yesterday by British government officials that they were looking for new ways to resolve the crisis peacefully. Several dozen policemen prevented the protesters from entering the embassy compound, although a few briefly scaled a fence outside the facility's walls before being pushed back, according to an AP reporter at the scene. One witness counted eight blasts from the embassy compound.

The protesters chanted "Death to Britain" and "Death to America" as they hurled stones into the courtyard of the embassy. They also shouted "the British spies should be tried". In speeches made before the students turned on the compound, they demanded the Iranian government expel the British ambassador and close down the embassy, calling it a "den of spies". They also advised Tehran not to release Faye Turney, the lone female sailor held captive, or show any flexibility until the British apologised for violating Iran's borders.

Iran's official Arabic-language television channel yestreday aired short video clips of what it said were two of the 15 captured British sailors who in the footage pointed to a map of the Arabian Gulf. Government-run Al-Alam TV said the two sailors were identifying where their boat crossed into Iranian waters on March 23, leading to their capture.

The two soldiers, who appeared in separate video clips wearing military fatigues and pointing at the same map, were talking to a camera, but Al-Alam did not air their voices. Instead, the newscaster said the two "have confessed" to trespassing into Iranian waters "illegally." The newscaster also gave more details about the incident, saying the 15 left their ship in a small boat in the morning of March 23 and entered the Iranian waters at 10 am local time. The TV broadcast also said the captured sailors have said that they are receiving "good and humanitarian treatment."
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6484 views] Top|| File under:

#1  It should be the British who should be pelting the Iranian Embassy in London or is it not civilised behaviour????
Posted by: Ebbolump Glomotle9608 || 04/02/2007 7:56 Comments || Top||

#2  I have not seen anything on Brit Embassy personnel evacuating, so the Brit Hostage Crisis is just Jimmah Carter '79 Redux so far. Are their any restrictions or compound confinement of Iranian "Embassy" personnel in London yet?
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 04/02/2007 9:18 Comments || Top||

#3  1. I heard the crowd was only a couple of hundred. Pretty pitiful for a "rent-a-crowd"

2. I too wonder if there are plans to evacuate.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 04/02/2007 10:50 Comments || Top||

#4  LH is correct. If they are trying to relive past hostage-taking glory and rally the country vs. the West but could only muster 200 in a rent-a-crowd then they have failed.

I am not sure what is going to happen or, beyond court martialing the captain of the HMS Cornwall, what should happen. But it is clear this is an act of desperation.
Posted by: JAB || 04/02/2007 11:55 Comments || Top||

#5  Actually this seems the smart thing to do if you are the Mulla-in-chief.

The crowd is big enough to get the right headlines in the Western newspapers but not so big as to let anything actually happen. Also, because only a few hundred thugs were purchased, it's easy on the thug rental budget (thus leaving money to steal).
Posted by: mhw || 04/02/2007 12:52 Comments || Top||

#6  say what you want about Iran, at least they take their border seriously.
Posted by: still here || 04/02/2007 13:11 Comments || Top||

#7  Every western nation should close their embassies in Iran and submit papers to the Iranian embassies in their nations that diplomatic immunity will be removed by Friday and the embassies closed down and full sanctions implemented if the hostages are not released in good condition.

If every western nation did so, I believe the threat alone would get the Iranians to comply and release the hostages, blaming a rogue general for the misunderstanding.
Posted by: rjschwarz || 04/02/2007 14:14 Comments || Top||

#8  With the numerous refereces to Friday that have appeared here today, has there been anything about the multi-national forces or the US 'suggesting' that oil tanker traffic in the gulf 'heave-to' awhile and not be anywhere around the Straits of Hormuz? if there are no tankers, then the Iranians have nothing to sink there to block the oil corridor, and after their military is decimated ( should be able to handle that by lunch) then the shipping can resume. any Iranian-controlled ship could be easily dispatched and the US fleet can not only take care of itself but be smart enough not to be in a position that would cause a blockade.
Posted by: USN, Ret. || 04/02/2007 14:24 Comments || Top||

#9  The Iranians know their navy won't make it five minutes so I'm pretty sure they are probably all set to fire silkworm missiles from the hidden positions along the shores of the straits. The trick will be to defend shipping from these attacks and/or to make these attacks more painful to the MMs than they are worth.
Posted by: gorb || 04/02/2007 14:53 Comments || Top||

#10  Does Iranian gasoline come back via tanker or pipeline?
Posted by: eLarson || 04/02/2007 16:11 Comments || Top||

Good morning
Avalanche hits Pakistani village, 11 feared deadIranians pelt UK embassyU.S. planes violate Iran's airspaceU.S. planes violate Iran's airspace60 killed in Darfur clashDemocrats To Widen Conflict With BushAethiopian reinforcements heading to MogZimbabwean president admits MDC leader assaulted
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 10:42 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6473 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Attractive young lass, makes me feel good all over - for a change.

Feeling better, Fred?
Posted by: Old Patriot || 04/02/2007 12:10 Comments || Top||

#2  Somewhat, but interrupted by spasms of hacking and wheezing. Definitely an improvement over yesterday, though. At one point I think I was actually inside-out.
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 12:33 Comments || Top||

#3  As long as you are right-side out now that is all that matters! :-)

Get better soon!
Posted by: gorb || 04/02/2007 12:53 Comments || Top||

#4  Taut rope, MMMMMM.
Posted by: Glenmore || 04/02/2007 13:48 Comments || Top||

#5  i volunteer to check for rope burns. only as a public service, ya unnerstand........
Posted by: USN, Ret. || 04/02/2007 13:58 Comments || Top||

#6  How 'bout a nice tug of war, there, sweetie?
Posted by: Mike || 04/02/2007 17:16 Comments || Top||

#7  I bet Miss Chapman dealt with many a line in her day.
Posted by: Mac || 04/02/2007 17:50 Comments || Top||

On genocide
These words were posted on Rantburg on Thursday evening, interjected into an entirely different heated argument going on at the same time:
Islam's abject refusal to abandon its obsession with genocide against the Jews must have only one result, a Muslim holocaust. They deserve nothing less for their vile and murderous troubles.
The result was that the heated argumenet broke down into two separate heated arguments and petered out when comments for that day shut down at midnight. The setiments stuck in my mind, where I found them nasty and irritating. I'm not an expert, but I'm going to try and lay out my thoughts on the matter. Again.

We're not going to kill a billion or a billion and a half innocents, even as a the most direct route to self-preservation.
Islam is the generic name of the religious system motivating our enemies. It is involved in terrorism as the motivator, despite pious denials to the contrary of periodic convocations of holy men. Islamists want to kill us. They want to obliterate our society and they want to replace our way of life, based on individual liberties and consent of the governed, with its antithesis, rooted in shariah. That's a fact, regardless of Rosie O'Donnell's opinion. The Learned Elders of Islam have stated that fact on enough occasions for anyone paying attention to believe them. The war is real, it's serious, and it's going worse than I'd have expected it to go five years ago. At the same time, we're not going to kill a billion or a billion and a half innocents, even as a the most direct route to self-preservation.

Genocide won't occur because,
Unlike the enemy, we recognize the existence and guarantee as much as possible the safety of non-combatants.
unlike the enemy, we recognize the existence and guarantee as much as possible the safety of non-combatants. We go to absurd lengths now to keep from killing civilians, even when armed and dangerous bad guys are using them as shields. That's almost the same principle we use in law enforcement; when Mr. Policeman is confronted by Muggsy holding a gun to the head of a hostage, we don't go ahead and kill the hostage to get to Muggsy. Under military conditions we might very well, but we try not to. The only thing that will cause us to nuke someone will be to be nuked ourselves first. Nothing will cause us to slaughter innocent non-combatants with the gusto and wild abandon that Islamists consider a virtue. There probably aren't any Dresdens in Islam's future.

We're not at war with all Muslims, despite claims to the contrary by the bad guys.
Another reason we're not going to kill all the Muslims in the world is because we're not at war with all of them, despite claims to the contrary by the bad guys, who want nothing more than to use them as shields. I've made the point here before that many of our allies are Muslims, starting with the gallant men of the Pandjir Valley in Afghanistan, the Kurds in Iraqi Kurdistan, and including the segment of the Iraqi Arab populace that is working with us to try and clear the bad guys from their country. Islam is split along the Shia-Sunni divide. Within Shiism there are multiple further splits, including the Ismailis and the Bah'ai, neither of which presents a remote threat. Of the Qom and Najaf schools, Qom presents a threat and Najaf doesn't. Qom represents a Persian attempt to reassert Iran as a great power, something it hasn't been since pre-Islamic times. Najaf is Arab and it's a religious movement. Sistani is content to try and stay out of poltiics, even though he may be forced to take part by events on the ground.

Salafists reject all four schools of Islamic jurisprudence.
Within Sunni Islam there are four main schools of thought — Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali. Salafists — the enemy — reject all four schools. They are currently in the process of coopting the rest of the Sunni movement. Such alliances as there are — such as with the Deobandis — are tactical and temporary. Unlike us, Salafists don't hesitate to turn on their allies. Once the West is defeated and the flag of Islam is flying over the White House, the Salafists fully intend to declare anyone who isn't Salafist to be takfir. Absent Khomeiniism, our natural allies in the Muslim world would be the Shiites, followed by such adherents of the four Sunni schools as survive.

The war is going to wax and wane. The Rosie surrender lobby will try to keep it waned, and the bad guys will occasionally do something so egregioiusly horrible that action will have to be taken.
That's not to say that we're not going to do unpleasant things in the years to come. The war is something that's going to wax and wane. The Rosie surrender lobby, often disguised as "realists," will try to keep it waned, and the actual bad guys will occasionally do something so egregioiusly horrible that the surrender lobby is temporarily drowned out. They'll skulk in their holes while our troops clean out whichever Islamic hellhole is active at the time, and then they'll resume business as usual as soon as the danger's passed. Those who produced the required numbers of dead bodies will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Successful generals will be retired and the unsuccessful become TV talking heads. Blame will be apportioned. And a close eye will be kept on the polls and the next election. This is the process known as Shooting the Wounded, and we're watching it in Congress right now.
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || E-Mail|| [6483 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I would like to see the structure that is called Islam suddenly figure the whole thing out and change in a way that makes it all go away without one more shot fired. But it seems that the very fabric of Islam lends itself to eventually taking over everything and stripping all its subjects, willing and forced, of many of the good things that could come along with being human that don't require their version of god to validate.

There are the 3-sigma types out there. Always have been and always will be. These guys will see this system and take advantage of it - knowingly or unknowingly - to further their own aims or to press forward with what they have been told and have come to think of as God's will, which to them is a good thing and they will do it with the abandon of a lunatic. And many of the followers of this structure are guaranteed to either assist or enable them, and the rest will do nothing to stop it because they have nothing to gain - except the 3-sigma folks on the opposite end of the curve who don't really stand a chance against the majority in the long run.

The way I see it, there is a train wreck coming. Heading one direction is Islam, which is by definition not going to get any better. Heading the other direction is western culture, which has been suffering from a wave of liberalism that causes it to fight itself, reducing its overall effectiveness to close to zero, when it has the potential to wipe out Islam in a heartbeat if it could get over this liberalism or whatever it is called that ails it.

If for some reason the very foundation of Islam is changed, it will have to be massive even on a biblical scale or it will regenerate. The extremists who set the tone will have to be beaten down almost to nothing which will certainly mean many human shields will have to die which will create more extremists.

I don't see any other way. I don't want it to be such, I wish everyone could sit down and talk and do what is best for all, even if it means partitioning up the world with guarantees not to cross borders, but I don't see that happening.
Posted by: gorb || 04/02/2007 1:19 Comments || Top||

#2  Thanks Fred for the great information.

gorb - it's been going on for thousands of years. This is just a continuation of the same fight. There never was an end to their battle, and sadly, I doubt that there ever will be. They just became temporarily irrelevant enough that we didn't realize they were still fighting. I have finally gotten used to the fact that we won't see a resolution in our lifetime. It seems strange because all other wars had winners and losers. But these fanatics are stateless and really have no winning goals at hand other than smiting their enemies. Even if they converted every infidel by the sword, then they'd start on each other.

We may see Europe fall ... who knows, but this war will continue long after we are gone.
Posted by: Angaiger Tojo1904 || 04/02/2007 1:59 Comments || Top||

#3  Victors write the history books.
Posted by: gromgoru || 04/02/2007 2:03 Comments || Top||

#4  Not anymoe they don't. I don't know if you've read the **^&&^ that you can find in History texts recently, but I assure it was written by losers.
Posted by: Angaiger Tojo1904 || 04/02/2007 2:25 Comments || Top||

#5  Angaiger Tojo1904. I'm sure the citezens of the late Roman Empire (at least the upper classes) would've agreed with you---but I can't.
Posted by: gromgoru || 04/02/2007 2:38 Comments || Top||

#6  "The only thing that will cause us to nuke someone will be to be nuked ourselves first. [...] There probably aren't any Dresdens in Islam's future."

There's an assumption here that may or may not be correct.

I hope it is, but there's no use assuming it.
Posted by: JSU || 04/02/2007 2:44 Comments || Top||

#7  I'm not sure I get your joke, Gromgoru - though I assume it has to do with the dark ages. Sorry, I'm not that smart.

However, since we are on the roman theme - here is what concerns me most about our situation today.

with no vote to sell, their motto is "couldn't care less," Time was when their plebiscite elected generals, heads of state, commanders of legions: but now they've pulled in their horns, there's only two things than concern them: BREAD and CIRCUSES
Posted by: Angaiger Tojo1904 || 04/02/2007 2:59 Comments || Top||

#8  Idol worship can be dangerous. Islam is what happens when you lose your identity in moral matters and your identity as nations. Islam is a neat concept, but just like communism, holds no future at all for mankind. So, you essentially are saying that 1.2 billion people on this earth have decided that their "God" overrules all the rules and they can get away with anything they want and forget the old new school. Thats a sad state of affairs handing the planet over to thugs.

The smart money banks on truth, and moslems learning just that, and that is this. You will treat this world as if it is the kingdom of heaven and in doing so can sew your way in. Otherwise, it will be gang land the whole world over with that corrupt as HELL system of Islamic rule. 1000 years of darkness, I promise you.
Posted by: newc || 04/02/2007 3:23 Comments || Top||

#9  That's almost the same principle we use in law enforcement; when Mr. Policeman is confronted by Muggsy holding a gun to the head of a hostage, we don't go ahead and kill the hostage to get to Muggsy.

Agreed, and that is because more often than not in the situation you cite both individuals are American citizens (although poorly enforced immigration laws have begun to change that). Nonetheless, what has been described above is a law enforcement scenario. I do believe that most of us here at Rantburg, to some degree or another, recognize that prosecuting the GWoT (Global War on Terrorism) with law enforcement or criminal justice techniques is inadequate at best and counterproductive at worst.

Under military conditions we might very well, but we try not to.

Here, you yourself note that, given current wartime circumstances, there may well be circumstances where GwoT hostage situations cannot be accorded the same protocols as law enforcement actions. I believe that these exceptions represent a crucial pivot point in how and for how long the GWoT will need to be fought.

In the GwoT we are faced with a vastly asymmetric challenge. We are in the process of engaging much less than one hundred thousand enemy combatants on any given front. However, while fielding far less than a million troops, we are confronted with an enemy that numbers in the millions, if not in the tens or even dozens of millions. Albeit, not in one single place with respect to our current military theaters, but in terms of the cumulative financial and material support (i.e., zakat), that those other untold millions pose in a significant, if not massively disproportionate threat, with regard to what our troops encounter.

I have mentioned before how, in order to effect any significant shift in the GWoT, we must somehow reach out and touch a significant percentage of this world’s billion or more Muslim population. Due to issues of illiteracy, government censorship, off-grid isolation and comprehensive indoctrination, even the most potent tools of Western civilization, such as the Internet, telephonic communication, radio or television broadcasting and printed literature all fall far short of the minimum goals we require towards that end.

The simple fact that tiny Portugal translates more foreign literature into their own relatively obscure language than the entire MME (Muslim Middle East) translates into its various Arabic tongues is glaring proof of how deep the intellectual and cultural chasm is that must be bridged in order to contact this necessary portion of Islam’s adherents.

Fred, to address your most recent point with respect to hostage situations. I maintain that Muslims must be made to feel the same, if not greater, pain than what we in the West are forced to endure. Towards that end I have, in the past, openly advocated shooting through those hostages that terrorists use as human shields. We avoided doing so in Mogadishu and our troops’ burned bodies were dragged through the streets, even as the same Islamic terrorists do so today with other casualties of the same war. Had we displayed the needed determination to eliminate those terrorists who practiced such vile tactics then, perhaps they would not still be doing so now.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe that you yourself have stated to the effect that Muslims had better begin stacking up dead jihadis like so much cordwood if they hope to preserve their religion. I seek to encourage such behavior as well, albeit with what are probably going to be perceived as much more harsh methods.

In order to reach out and touch all those untold millions of jihadist Muslims, we must begin a campaign of behavioral modification. I know that it sounds like some sort of animal training, but this is what the task at hand amounts to. Doing so requires that we impose substantial negative consequences (or undesirable behavioral modification) upon those who collaborate with, or do not actively resist, the Islamic terrorists that employ them, willingly or not.

Ensuring that those who, voluntarily or not, submit to being used as human shields by terrorists are exposed to harm or, even, death will eventually generate antipathy towards the terrorists. It certainly can be argued that such acts also might contribute to equal antipathy towards coalition troops but such hatred already exists in abundance and should not stay our hand in forcing Islam to share our pain.

It is in this same way that I have also advocated that even children who dance over or kick around the body parts of our slain troops be gunned down. Furthermore, I have gone so far as to support shooting children who are sent out to gather up abandoned weapons or ammunition. Only when Muslim parents understand that Islamists who, forcibly or otherwise, recruit their precious children to assist in their heinous tasks simultaneously expose them to potential death will we finally reach out and touch them in a meaningful way.

We’ve already seen Palestinian women submit their own bodies as human shields for known terrorist kinfolk. We’ve already seen Palestinian gunmen intentionally use women and children as human shields in gunfights with Israeli forces. How else can such conduct be discouraged if the civilians involved willingly participate? Similarly, how can we possibly know when women or children are not willing participants in such situations?

So long as Muslims do not rise up and vociferously declare themselves as being, both verbally and physically, opposed to Islamist terrorism’s violence, I believe that we are obliged to consider them as willing participants and treat them accordingly. Only then will we reach out and touch enough of them, be it in a harmful way or not, such that they finally begin to rethink their support for violent jihad.

The only thing that will cause us to nuke someone will be to be nuked ourselves first.
[emphasis added]

Here it is where I can only hope that you will openly recognize how I have steadfastly maintained the exact same position both recently and on numerous other occasions in the past A few too many people here at Rantburg unthinkingly advocate what amounts to indiscriminate use of nuclear weapons against Islam. While I understand their anger and even the seemingly fitting aspect of such an abrupt comeuppance happening to Islam’s core, it is still totally unacceptable.

America must not and cannot surrender its moral authority or ethical high ground to the allure of an easy and sweeping victory against jihadist Islam.

Nothing will cause us to slaughter innocent non-combatants with the gusto and wild abandon that Islamists consider a virtue.

Agreed: This must not be possible, otherwise the terrorists will truly have won. All said and done, we may yet be confronted with the need to slaughter on a scale that will, for once and all, reach out and touch a sufficient number of Muslims whereby they are convinced of our intent to resolutely defy even their most concerted efforts to make us submit to Islamic theocracy.

What limit is there to a demonstration of such resolution? This is the core question. How many Muslims should we allow ourselves to kill before a threshold of unacceptable Islamic loss of life is crossed? More importantly, should the West abandon its fight for survival when confronted with such an upward limit of numbers? Is there some maximum number of Muslim lives worth more than preserving the hard won institutions of Western constitutional law and individual liberties that our forefathers died for in so many equally if not more brutal wars?

There probably aren't any Dresdens in Islam's future.

Without substantial, authentic or genuine reformation of Islam’s current doctrine and modus operandi, I argue against this notion. On September 11th, 2001 America experienced a drastic demonstration of Islam’s resolve to cause the first of many Western Dresdens. The Koran specifically exhorts its followers to cause such atrocities and no significant effort has been made to expunge its passages of such hostile doctrine.

To date, Islam has shown absolutely no reversal in this trend towards increasingly aggressive conduct. If anything they have, on a repeated basis, confirmed their intent to cause numerous other atrocities of the exact same sort, if not even worse. Few alternatives present themselves other than the option of causing Islam a sufficient degree of harm whereby they lose the will to continue causing the same for Western civilization. While nuclear weapons need not be the prime ingredient of such a strategy, massive and, even, disproportionate retaliation present themselves as the best, if not sole candidates for such dissuasive measures.

Again, I have always done my best to stress how undesirable any sort of overwhelming extirpation of this world’s Muslim population is. At this venue I have fought routinely against the less flattering portrayals of Muslims as “ragheads”, “diaperheads” and “tentheads”. My reasons for this are to keep Rantburg’s examination of such important matters free from any polarizing language that might cause newcomers or others to perceive this site as merely being one consumed by hate speech.

While my words have been twisted by some so that they seem to advocate genocide, I believe firmly that close examination of a majority of my posts will reveal the resolute rejection of that notion and, instead will show a prediction of it, and how unavoidable such an outcome will be, rather than it being something to be desired.

I still maintain that an unreformed Islam can no more make rivers run backwards than avoid the day when some radical Muslim faction will commit an atrocity so horrific that the West will have no other recourse than to exterminate such an omnipresent threat. Islam’s inherently decentralized structure coupled with its wholly intolerant doctrine, absolutely predict such a catastrophic outcome.

The holocaust I predict most likely will be on a par with that of the Jews. Six million Muslims represent a total of some 0.005% of their global population. Even sixty million still equates to a twentieth of their overall population. Yet, it is somewhere around these numbers that will probably be required to perish in order that the remaining portion of the ummah understand what awaits an unreformed Islam.

Do I relish this ghastly notion? No. Do I greet such a proposition with unabated joy? No. Do I nonetheless predict it? You can bet the farm on it. Islam, to date, shows absolutely no outward sign of avoiding such an end result. In fact, every indication, so far, points towards the inevitability of such a disastrous outcome.

All of you who are reading these words, I will ask that those among you who have demanded even more harsh measures than I, or ones of equal severity, to please step forward and explain your own viewpoints. I have done so to the best of my ability and can only hope that others will do so as well.

Finally, I would like to thank you very much, Fred. This forum has provided me with an unprecedented opportunity for enlightenment unlike few others I have ever encountered during some ten or fifteen years spent on the Internet. Please rest assured that, due to Rantburg's influence, my own political views will never be the same. Not for my entire life. If my above words are wholly unacceptable, please delete them and, if you deem it just, ban my presence as well. I respect your judgment and admire how stolidly you have supported the American ideal of free speech here at Rantburg. For that, I cannot thank you enough.


Posted by: Zenster || 04/02/2007 4:38 Comments || Top||

#10  Islam is a neat concept

Looking from right, looking from left, up, down, shaking vigorously... Nope, nothing neat about it. Even in comparison with concepts that were contemporary, give or take half a millenium), it contains no redeeming value--the fact some people produced something from within Islam was not because of it, but despite of it.
Skipping a millenium forward... ah, found some resemblance: Thugees.
Posted by: twobyfour || 04/02/2007 4:59 Comments || Top||

#11  Zen, bare some deux ex machina or natural kind, the trend that you pointed out is roughly the same I see.

It is not really difficult to extrapolate trends and to see where things are going, with some insights from history. I would love to be an optimist, but so far, looking back several years, I see the same train on these same rails slowly (but with a tremendous momentum) approaching the point of wrecking. Some people on the train are doing somewhat different things, in comparison what I anticipated, but the train is the same and on the same track. Suck to see confirmations of this kind almost on daily basis. I still remember my lecture about the future that I've given to my daughter some 5 years ago, and I have to say that I wouldn't change a word if I were to give her the lecture today. It did not do me any pleasure to paint that bleak picture in front of her.

I am convinced that one day, in the future that may be removed by a couple of generations, we'll win, inevitably. But the price that will be due will dwarf anything in history.

That is what I see... unless someone or a group of people don't come up with some way to replace Islam with something more benign--and that won't remove the problem entirely, just scale it down a bit.

Chances are rather not good.

Wretchard's 3 conjectures loom on the horizon.
Posted by: twobyfour || 04/02/2007 5:50 Comments || Top||

#12  Islam is a backward and poisonous ideology of Arabic imperialism.

Although a cult/religion can never truly be discredited in the eyes of true believers, the set of negative behaviors which it endorses must be reexamined by its adherents in light of the resistance and negative consequences which the civilized world must provide.
Posted by: Ebbins Bonaparte7346 || 04/02/2007 6:05 Comments || Top||

#13  Ebbins, the set of negative behaviors which it endorses must be reexamined by its adherents in light of the resistance and negative consequences which the civilized world must provide.

How do you propose that the term "must" would enter your equation?
Posted by: twobyfour || 04/02/2007 6:42 Comments || Top||

#14  it's been going on for thousands of years

No. The pagan moon goddess cult was founded in the late 600's BC.

Right now in our history islam (and its leftist defenders)is the most evil thing on the planet and the solution is simple. What we need is a Genocide of the so called religion. Every single mosque and quran should be burned. Unfortunately it's going to take a nuke on our soil to make it happen.
Posted by: Icerigger || 04/02/2007 7:58 Comments || Top||

#15  Another reason we're not going to kill all the Muslims in the world is because we're not at war with all of them, despite claims to the contrary by the bad guys, who want nothing more than to use them as shields. I've made the point here before that many of our allies are Muslims, starting with the gallant men of the Pandjir Valley in Afghanistan, the Kurds in Iraqi Kurdistan, and including the segment of the Iraqi Arab populace that is working with us to try and clear the bad guys from their country.

I'm with Fred here. This war is not as simple as "Moslems bad, everybody else good." There are a couple dozen flavors of Islam, and while some of those are implacably hostile to civilization (Wahabbism) others are not. I would further point out that there are also multiple schools of thought within the western world, some of which are implacably hostile to civilization (e.g., Marxism, Rosie-O-Donnelism). Within Christianity, there are multiple schools of thought, some of which are implacably hostile to what is generally thought of as orthodox Judeo-Christian tradition.

It isn't an act of dhimmitude to acknowledge the existence of Moslem friendlies. I would submit, however, that it is an act of ingratitude, and a grave tactical error, to react to every bit of news from the Middle East with a cry of "Kill all the Muzzies!" Some of those "Muzzies" are on your side, and they're risking a lot more by doing so than you and I are trading commentary in Fred's combox.
Posted by: Mike || 04/02/2007 8:49 Comments || Top||

#16  #7 Not a joke except in the sense that Late Romans believed that the Barbs at their gates are a joke. And there was a lot of books writen during that period---not many survived.
Posted by: gromgoru || 04/02/2007 8:51 Comments || Top||

#17  Hey Zenster, popular beliefs change. Personally, I hope that the current western belief in unconditional altruism --- in particular, not doing into others as they'd do into you etc... --- will fade before the West does.
Posted by: gromgoru || 04/02/2007 9:13 Comments || Top||

#18  The war is real, it's serious, and it's going worse than I'd have expected it to go five years ago.

And the same sentence will be true when repeated again 5 and 10 years from now. That's why there will be Dresdens. Probably nuclear and probably in response to nuclear attacks on the west.

And our response will not be without precedence; as Kevin Phillips has demonstrated in The Cousins' Wars: Religion, Politics, and the Triumph of Anglo-America. We will fight a major war with Islam with significant religious undertones, though it may not be labeled as such, after Islam's violent agents sufficiently threaten our continued existence. We will not kill all Muslims as it is a practical impossibility. But we will dehumanize our enemy in our sight as pure evil and we will then do whatever is necessary to utterly destroy those advancing Islam by violence, after which we will do our best to return the survivors into the human family.

Or we will be bowing to the east 5 times a day.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 04/02/2007 9:34 Comments || Top||

#19  As a dick-head once said folks like a strong horse and sometimes it's not clearly to see which horse is strong when one is bold and scary and the other is far away and providing conflicting messages through the media and opposition party. Sooner or later though, you see what is going on.

In my humble opinion there will be a point when the Islamic world finally realizes the West is the strong horse and we have the ability go genocide them but the only way they can "destroy" us is by turning us genocidal and making us feel bad for what we did to them.

The mad ones will continue to fight and the silent majority will tip to our side en-masse. The Jihad war will end suddenly when the tipping point is finally reached. The tipping point would come far sooner if we didn't have useful idiots trying to chop us off at the knees for partisan game in the mean time. If the Islamic world comes anywhere near genocide it will be on the shoulders of the useful idiots and Bush haters that made it seem Islam had a chance.
Posted by: rjschwarz || 04/02/2007 10:12 Comments || Top||

#20  Hopefully, leaders in the West will realize someday that you cannot play footsie with Islamic leaders and expect to eliminate the threat by killing Jihadi suicide bots and cannon fodder.

It will be when smart people lead, people who can put 2 and 2 together and get 4, and have the ability to communicate that simple fact to the public.

Radical Islam is big today because of oil. Oil brings money. Money brings power. Oil money brings corruption. It buys off leaders and key people in key positions. Follow the freakin money. The bulk of the Islamist misery and money goes back to Saudi Arabia, Iran, and other wealthy Sheiks in oil producing counties. They in turn support the Imams and Mullahs, who preach hate and turn kids into bots.

So the solution is to follow the money and stop the flow to these leaders. On one level, it means dealing with energy needs in a way to start cutting off the money flow to the Islamist leaders. This is a long shot. It will take time, resources, and the political leadership and will to do the task.

The other avenue that needs to be pursued is to removed the money by removing the money men. That means taking them out, or looting their bank accounts. Anything to deny them resources. That in turn denies resources to Imams and Mullahs.

A good head shot will stop the rest of the body. There is no reason for genocide when a little thinking and analysis will identify the source of the problem.

But if civilization is weak, narcicistic, and not vigilant, Islamist thugs will drag us all down to a worldwide genocidal war, just like WW1, just like WW2. Civilization and human progress is ours to lose.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 04/02/2007 10:36 Comments || Top||

#21  I have very little confidence anymore that we're going to be able to settle this thing without committing far more violence than we've envisioned so far. 'Twould be nice if we could, but I don't think it's going to happen.
Posted by: Dave D. || 04/02/2007 10:46 Comments || Top||

#22  AP, that's what my dad said, take out their bankers, starting w/the Swiss.....

Go after the mullahs who preach....

Lots of accidents, falling down stairs.....

However, we do have coordinates for big shows, Wazooland, Aceh, southern Thailand, Philippines...

If 40% want sharia in Britain, it'll be very, very messy.
Posted by: anonymous2u || 04/02/2007 10:58 Comments || Top||

#23  I think we're going to see far more violence, but only after we're pushed into it.

When we finally win this war it'll be because we took direct, ruthless, plausibly deniable action against the men running the war against us. That'll be a lot more effective than a string of Dresdens. And it'll entail a lot less violence -- just more ruthless.
Posted by: Fred || 04/02/2007 11:43 Comments || Top||

#24  I keep remembering Churchill:

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

Winston Churchill
The River War (1899)

Posted by: Throque Gonque2829 || 04/02/2007 12:24 Comments || Top||

#25  First, Islam is a man-made religion stitched together from pagan, Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, and God alone knows what else. It is an attempt by Arabs to "steal" the God of the Jews, because they treated Mohammed's claim to be a prophet as the joke it was. There was a link here the other day to a page that substantiated this.

Secondly, we are at war with those who would use Islam as a front for world domination, just as Hitler used National Socialism as a front, and Stalin used Marxist/Leninist Communism as a front. Just as we had to destroy National Socialism and Communism, we are going to have to destroy Islam itself to purge the world of these idiots. As long as Islam exists, there will be "religious justification" for what they do.

Third, I refuse to speculate on what future actions will be necessary, or what future leaders will do to ensure the destruction of Islam. If I knew that nuking Mecca, Medina, Qom, and Riyadh would end Islamic murder and mayhem once and for all, I doubt I'd hold back. However, NOT knowing that such action would actually solve the problem, it's not YET an option.

I do know that we need to start fighting this war as a war, and we need to get VERY serious about it, or we're going to lose. It'll be over my dead body, but that will be scant comfort to my grandchildren.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 04/02/2007 12:28 Comments || Top||

#26  No. The pagan moon goddess cult was founded in the late 600's BC.

No. It was founded in the late 600's AD! Big difference there.
Posted by: Natural Law || 04/02/2007 13:44 Comments || Top||

#27  Islam is a neat concept

Looking from right, looking from left, up, down, shaking vigorously... Nope, nothing neat about it.

At the risk of putting words into another's mouth. I believe he meant "neat" as in simple: Few moral quandaries, no wrestling with internal doubts and deep theological questions, answers handed to you ready-made to be swallowed whole, physical adherence trumps all regardless of motivation. I mean, this is a religion that tells you how to wipe your butt.
Posted by: xbalanke || 04/02/2007 14:04 Comments || Top||

#28  Whatever may happen, Portugal made the first tactical mistake in this war, when after decades of laying the ground work to take Mecca from sea by advancing around Africa they got seduced by the wealth of the Spice Trade and capture it instead.

Posted by: 3dc || 04/02/2007 14:05 Comments || Top||

#29  When we finally win this war it'll be because we took direct, ruthless, plausibly deniable action against the men running the war against us. That'll be a lot more effective than a string of Dresdens. And it'll entail a lot less violence -- just more ruthless.

I could not agree more, Fred. Much as Alaska Paul observed about choking off the money trail, the West also needs to focus on interdicting the "indoctrination trail". There has been routine discussion here at Rantburg of utilizing wetwork or hunter-killer teams. .com and myself were early proponents of this notion. Here is a proposed target list:

1. Ayman al-Zawahiri
2. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
3. Ayatolla Kahmeini
4. Mullah Muhammad Omar
5. Abu Bakar Ba'asyir (Bashir)
6. Moqtada Sadr
7. Abu Hamza al-Masri
8. Mullah Krekar (AKA: Abu Sayyid Qutb)
9. Khaled Meshal
10. Sheikh Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah
11. Ismail Haniya
12. Mohammed Abbas
13. Yusuf al-Qaradawi
14. imam Ahmed Abu Laban
15. Sheikh Taj Al-Din Al-Hilali
16. imam Omar Bakri Mohammed
17. imam Abdel-Samie Mahmoud Ibrahim Moussa
18. imam Sheikh SyeSyed Mubarik Ali Gilani
19. Abdullah al-Faisal
20. Sheik Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi
21. Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar
22. Prince Sultan Ibn Abd al-Aziz
23. Prince Bandar bin Sultan bin Abdulaziz
24. Prince Nayef bin Abdulaziz

I submit that the West could swiftly and substantially reduce the momentum of violent jihad by eliminating these two-dozen central Islamic players.

It is tragically ironic that the Western powers will most likely avoid implementing such surgical measures as being too ruthless. Moreover, I believe there is a squeamishness of official leaders in general when it comes to deposing other political figureheads, no matter how corrupt or tyrannical. The continued existence of Assad, Mugabe and Kim Jong-il all stand as testimony to how high office is treated like some sort of craft guild or closed shop.

History has demonstrated routinely that tipping points are the most common levers by which wars are initiated, fought and won. In light of that, it is far more likely America will undergo a terrorist nuclear attack and then retaliate by immolating some portion of the MME (Muslim Middle East).

Why there is this unwillingness to address Islam for the threat it is goes beyond the comprehension of ordinary thinking people. The reluctance being shown by American and European leadership alike points towards the probable emergence of another World War II-style charnel house.

Most repellant of all is the notion that this war against Islam will go on for generations. When one considers the loss of life and tremendous financial expense which has ensued in a mere half-decade, the idea of extending that same level of expenditure over several decades is simultaneously horrific and ridiculous. In monetary terms alone, the final figure would amount to trillions of dollars. Without back-billing terrorism sponsoring nations for the costs of combating their nefarious plots, the expense is simply prohibitive. This is another lever that may eventually pressure Western leadership into seeking more expedient methods to end this conflict.

The result was that the heated argumenet broke down into two separate heated arguments and petered out when comments for that day shut down at midnight. The setiments stuck in my mind, where I found them nasty and irritating.

Fred, for that irritation I will again personally apologize to you now as I did then to fellow Rantburgers during that particular set to. My adversary finally exposed himself as one devoid of actual solutions or constructive argument and I am now able to confidently ignore any further disputes with that individual.

Even in comparison with concepts that were contemporary, give or take half a millenium), it contains no redeeming value

This remains a central issue. To paraphrase .com’s concise appraisal; Name one single redeeming feature of Islam.

What are the redeeming features of the cult-like religion? Certainly not its policy of Abject Gender Apartheid. Most definitely not its Koranic doctrine of anti-Semitic genocide. Absolutely not its exhortation to violent conversion and terrorism as a tool of persuasion. Simply put, Islam is the world's most intolerant creed and represents one massive ongoing violation of human rights. Its continued existence is a canker that blemishes our world.

In order to become even remotely compatible with Western culture, so much of Islam will need to undergo wholesale change that its chances for such reformation are dim at best. This is why I remain both skeptical and pessimistic about what the future holds if current methods of fighting Islam remain in place. The prospects are grim at best.
Posted by: Zenster || 04/02/2007 14:53 Comments || Top||

#30  I have very little confidence anymore that we're going to be able to settle this thing without committing far more violence than we've envisioned so far. 'Twould be nice if we could, but I don't think it's going to happen.

AP, I'm afraid that after all this is done the America we have then will not be the America we have now, or one that we will want.

It is the duty of every American citizen to insure that the America we have after this war, which looks like it will, unfortunately, take a very, very long time to fight no matter which way it goes, is the America we have now no matter which way it goes.

It's up to us, ladies and gentlemen, to make sure it turns out the way we want it to and that we don't become absolute savages in the process.

We must become wolves, but even wolves do not unnecessarily savage their own pack.

Posted by: FOTSGreg || 04/02/2007 16:28 Comments || Top||

#31  This is a good, informed discussion of the issue.

But I think it misses the point: The point is not what we should do. The point is what we will do in circumstances of unprecedented horror. The connection between "should" and "should not", on one hand, and "will" and "did" on the other is tenuous.
Posted by: Richard Aubrey || 04/02/2007 16:29 Comments || Top||

#32  If 9/11 (and Bali, and Madrid, and London, and London Redux) wasn't enough to rouse us from our slumber, whats to say that we ever take united action without FIRST duking it out internally (civil war)?
Posted by: Crusader || 04/02/2007 19:01 Comments || Top||

#33  The first thing to do is identify the war and the enemy. It's been five and a half years, and that has not been done. The enemy is unreformed Islam.
Now, there are several ways to kill a beast. If we were strong enough, the beast would die of old age without shots fired. We are not, so the second thing should be to become stronger. To do so, we should 'kill' the media. We should begin a campaign to single the traitors among the media and identify every attempt to lessen our resolve or to strengthen the resolve of Islam. Each media person is an individual, and as such cannot stand against the tide of our ridicule. The same for Hollyweird. The new media would be expected to support our efforts gung ho. That would reduce the leftists to the hundred or so Michael Moore types who would be murdered in their sleep without notice. Third, we would have to pull from the sinkhole the continent of Europe. This may only be done with shooting, killing, and controlled chaos. The population would have to be balanced back to Europeans, not muzzies.
The fact that muzzies are still allowed into the US boggles the mind, and points out just how our shithead politicians miss the whole point. And when Bush fails to jail Pelosi for going to Syria, he proves once again how he misses the point. A full separation of Islam from the west would be necessary for the beginning of the end of Islam. Without oil, they are sand monkeys. With Islam, they are goat phuckers. We can roll them up at will once we can stop the blackmail from Islam, and back stabbing from Liberals.
If we are forced to fight any other way, then we must learn to kill them like bacteria. Day and night, Winter and Summer, alone or in groups, direct fire, indirect fire, unconditional surrender for Islam, final victory for western civilization in an undignified way will end this bad dream. We will be lesser men as a result, but we will know why we fight and who we kill. People will be judged, choices made, standards set and the end of Islam will bind us together. We may not be the majority going in, but we had better be the majority when it's all over.
Posted by: wxjames || 04/02/2007 20:33 Comments || Top||

#34  Islam's abject refusal to abandon its obsession with genocide against the Jews must have only one result, a Muslim holocaust. They deserve nothing less for their vile and murderous troubles.

As a final note, I still take responsibility for having posted the above words. A central tenet of Islam's Koranic doctrine is Semitic genocide. There must be no reward for exalting the aspirations of such a twisted doctrine. The Jews have once before gone silently into the night. NEVER AGAIN.

Never again can the Jews be expected to place their neck beneath the sword, be it of Nazism or Islam. If Muslims cannot bring themselves to reject this heinous tenet of their doctrine, they are not worthy of participation in the global community.

As a thriving Middle East democracy, Israel already has proven its worth to the world. Islam has yet to do so and still remains ever so far from it. Should making a choice become necessary, and Muslims certainly seem hell bent on it, Israel's worth to this planet outweighs the value of all Muslim majority nations put together. The MME (Muslim Middle East), is a dog's breakfast of intensely corrupt tyranny, despotism, theocratic autocracy and a perpetually savage intolerance for all things non-Islamic.

From all indications, Islam is driving towards a point in time when that equation will be put to the test. This is no small part of why Israel maintains an arsenal of nuclear weapons sufficient to negate any disparity in comparative military ranks. If Israel's destruction remains so vitally important to the Islamic world, then one side or the other will have to be destroyed. Again, it is highly doubtful that this time the Jews will once again go silently into the night.

This is what I meant by the words in this post's opening quote and I stand by them.
Posted by: Zenster || 04/02/2007 20:48 Comments || Top||

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