This ticks me off
The items shown are for sale in Palestinian areas. The Palestinian leadership has, for decades, preached that all real, or imagined, wrongs done to Palestinians by the Israelis were done with the permission of the United States. The common belief among Palestinians is that Americans are the enemy becuause of this, and, as a result, the attacks on September 11, 2001, were seen as a victory for Palestinians. Oddly enough, Palestinian spokesmen deny this (in English). But Palestinian media (in Arabic) says otherwise. So do the toys sold to Palestinian children.
Bears, why do they hate us?
John Hirsch went toe-to-claw with a black bear â and won. Hirsch had only a 3 1/2-inch knife blade when he came across the bear in his backyard in Williams Lake, about 190 miles northeast of Vancouver. "He came out of nowhere," said Hirsch, 61, an avid hunter and outdoorsman. "I can remember thinking that heâs not stopping â heâs coming," said Hirsch. "I just didnât feel I had any place to go." He was attacked Oct. 29 while checking on the 15 turkeys he and his wife, Sharon, raise on their spread. As the bear began to circle him, Hirsch faced it like a wrestler in a ring. "It was like a knife fight that youâd see in an old-time Western," he said. The bear swatted out at him, but each time it lunged, he managed to stab it. "I couldnât tell you if the fight lasted three seconds or three minutes," Hirsch said. Three stabs to the bearâs chest and one to its neck finally did the bruin in. Donât mess with Grandpa Hirsch.
It stood about 5 foot 7 inches to Hirschâs 5 feet 9 inches and weighed 200 pounds, according to conservation officers who inspected it. "I can say it sure looked smaller the next morning than it did during the fight," said Hirsch.
The bear was in poor shape, suffering from a severed tongue and broken jaw, the conservation officer said. Its stomach was empty and the bear had little fat on it. Hungry and wounded = mean.
Hirsch, a retired electrical foreman at B.C. Hydro, suffered a scratch to the top of his head and scratches to his back â and a shredded T-shirt. PETA will be filing charges, no doubt.
Posted by: Steve ||
11/20/2003 12:35:14 PM ||
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#1
Somehow I don't think PETA will bear this well.
#4
I think Hirsch should have waited for the sanctions to take effect. Seriously, Hirsch should have done anything he cared to. I'm not stupid enough to give orders to anybody who can kill a bear with a knife.
Posted by: Christopher Johnson ||
11/20/2003 15:26 Comments ||
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#5
Someone should put him in touch with the iceman
Japan will send government officials to the Philippines Thursday to investigate unconfirmed reports that a few Japanese soldiers are still hiding out in the jungle, refusing to surrender after World War II.
"Didn't you get our note?"
The mission, involving three researchers of the Health and Welfare Ministry, will search jungles on Luzon Island during a week-long investigation, a ministry official said on Wednesday. âWe have received information that a former Japanese soldier had lived in a village in the suburb of Manila, pretending to be a local resident, and the man apparently contacted a few Japanese still hiding in a jungle before he died in 1996,â the official said. The mission also includes two former Japanese soldiers who surrendered in Philippine jungles and were sent back to Japan after the end of World War II. If the reports prove true, it would be the first confirmation of Japanese holding out since 1974, when a former Imperial Army second lieutenant, Michio Onoda, returned to Japan after surviving for three-decades in a jungle having refused to surrender.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:08 ||
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#1
IIRC, Onoda finally surrendered when they brought his commanding officer, then a tailor in Japan, to the Phillipines to relieve him of his duty. Talk about fanatacism.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
11/20/2003 0:30 Comments ||
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#2
Talk about fanatacism.
And to think Al-qaeda actually threatened the Japanese.
Posted by: Rafael ||
11/20/2003 1:06 Comments ||
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#3
The mutts from al qaeda have no idea what they're dealing with. They mistakenly view the japanese as being 'western', thus as 'soft' as Americans. Bad idea (and they're learning about our 'softness' up in the hills, too).
#4
There is a fairly intersting book about the Onoda story - entitled "No Surrender". In a strange way, you gotta admire that type of loyalty to "duty".
In the book, one of the amazing things was how well cared for the Japanese weapons were - oiled with palm oil,if I remember correctly. But I think they said the bullets were all worn down, from years of constant handling and cleaning.
'Reminds me of pulling (and later inspecting) guard duty, back when. Shotgun guard posts. The shotgun cartridges has been handed over maybe 2,000 times, and were looking pretty moldy - not the sort of thing I'd want to take a chance with.
#5
"Service to the Emperor" was service for life - only the Emperor could relieve these Japanese soldiers of their duty. I would NOT be surprised to find a few soldiers hiding in the jungles of ANYWHERE Japanese had conquered - the Philippines, Borneo, Indonesia, Malaysia, even a few islands here and there. Any of them still surviving must be getting very old - a conscript recruited in say, June of 1945 at 17 would be 75 today.
Can you imagine the back pay for 58 years' service? Even at the pay rate of a private (17 yen/month), it'd mount up, especially with interest...
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
11/20/2003 15:12 Comments ||
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I read a book Fire on the Plains about a wounded Japanese soldiers who were sent into the jungles to die (with a grenade). He didn't die and the Japanese pulled out without him. The guy had so much trouble finding food he resorted to canibalism. He convinced himself he was eating monkeys until the very end in the psycho ward in Japan when the doctor figured it out.Anyway it was a true story and it leads me to beleave it would be tough for a 80 something year old man to live in the Philippine jungles.
There are so-o-o-o many smart-assed remarks than could be made about that title...
Experts on terrorism will attend an international conference held in the Saudi capital in February to ascertain ways of combating extremism and the role Islam can play in halting violence.
It'll be interesting to see who shows up...
The event, which is organized by Imam Muhammad bin Saud Islamic University, stems from the upsurge in violence and attacks in the kingdom, Abdullah bin Nasser al-Hamoud, chairman of the media committee of the conference, told Arab News. Al-Hamoud was quoted as saying: âThe importance of such a conference comes from the fact that the Kingdom has been recently a target of terrorism.â It was âimperative for the Kingdom to study the roots of terrorism and explain to everyone the role of Islam in countering terrorism and violence,â he said.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 13:19 ||
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"I was a mere amateur at car bombs until I attended Mustafah's workshop."
...to ascertain ways of combating extremism and the role Islam can play in halting violence...
By being more extreme and more violent! It's genius!
Posted by: Dar ||
11/20/2003 13:28 Comments ||
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#2
There are so-o-o-o many smart-assed remarks than could be made about that title...
#9
Almost hard to make this topic any more absurd than where it started from. I'm nearly rendered speechless by the Saudi hutzpah! When was the last time a lawyer was rendered speechless?
#11
They OBVIOUSLY want to do better than 15 out of 19 next time. By Allah's eyes, they expect 100% participation! This conference is a good first step.
#12
âThe importance of such a conference comes from the fact that the Kingdom has been recently a target of terrorism.â Wasn't important that SA is also the major exporter of terror and violence?
Shudda continued with the baksheesh so the chickens wouldn't come back to the roost.
#15
Imam Mohamed University trains non-Saudi Muslim imam types who later return home to work in Wahibi/Royal Family-funded mosques.
Yes, let's hope they DO discuss root causes
Posted by: Michael ||
11/20/2003 17:03 Comments ||
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Forgot to add that Saudis are also trained there, and many of these folks go abroad to work in Kingdom-funded mosques. You know, kind of like the Filipino priest who might work in a parish in McCook, Nebraska.
Posted by: Michael ||
11/20/2003 17:06 Comments ||
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#17
Well if Prince Nayif can open a conference on human rights anything is possible...
Like Gasse Katze said, I think the clucking & flapping noises are getting too loud to ignore, perhaps the bayt as-Sa'ud could benefit from reading a biography of Ethelred the Unready?
Posted by: Dave ||
11/20/2003 18:21 Comments ||
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Well, if you want expert opinions, you go to the experts...
A Saudi cleric well known for his hardline views has repented on national television. Sheikh Ali al-Khudair said he has withdrawn his support for Islamic militants suspected of having links with al-Qaeda. Becuase he felt so bad, no doubt.
He condemned the recent bomb attack on a residential compound in the capital, Riyadh, which left 18 dead. Sheikh Ali al-Khudair was arrested earlier this year for supporting Islamic extremists. Well, maybe repent wasnât the best word choice.
In a string of fatwas - or religious edicts - he had made himself look like a complete asshole given legitimacy to their violent struggle against the Saudi state. He must have reread the passage in the Koran about biting the hand that feeds you or something like that.
#5
Heh. A good illustration of Colson's Maxim: grab them by the balls, and their hearts and minds will gladly follow
More like grab 'em by the feet, say what you like about falaqa, it's effective. The Algerian Integristes would be shocked at such wimpy behaviour, fessing up before the chalumeau comes into play?
Posted by: Dave ||
11/20/2003 18:05 Comments ||
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#6
This is quite shocking. It you ask me, this puts the validity of every fatwa in question. Maybe some imammuftiayatollahshiekhcleric will issue another one and clear it all up. I sure hope so.
Walid al-Saqqaf, Editor, Yemen Times editorial@yementimes.com
Looking at what is going on in Iraq right now makes me want to start a dialogue to clarify to those who still support the war, my point of view, which I am sure matches many who are opposed to this war. Okay Walid, letâs talk.
I will be glad to publish feedback and comments in our âletters to the editorâ pages. I have been encouraged to start this initiative because I receive so many letters and emails from readers all over the world focusing on this particular issue. I will start this exciting new initiative with a series of editorials, starting this week. I will first of all argue why any occupation, no matter where it is, cannot bring democracy. My second piece will be on why the USA is expected to fail in Iraq. Well, right off the bat, I have to remind you of upshot of the nice-guy occupations of Japan and Germany, after World War 2.
My third editorial would be focused on the consequences for the American people and on the USA in general. I donât suppose that enhanced US security might be one of your choices.
The fourth and final editorial would be an attempt to conclude and learn a lesson from all that happened since 911 and until the USA withdraws from Iraq, if it ever will. Hopefully, the Iraqis will have a lesson in Western liberty, secularism and democracy, before the withdrawl.
Occupation canât bring democracy
Let us take it from the very basics. No one wants to be occupied. There are no âgoodâ or âbadâ occupiers. For the occupied, all occupiers are damn bad. Well, whatâs your position on the Syrian occupation of much of Lebanon?
Even if occupiers think they are doing good, they will always be bad in the eyes of the people of the occupied territory. Hence, it is obvious that Iraqis will not like Americans. Having hated Saddam does not necessarily mean they like the USA. They both can be hated, particularly when people realize that just before 1990, the brutal Iraqi regime was a close ally of the USA. Most Iraqis support the liberation/occupation, as a stepping stone to independence. Even the Arab League recognizes the Iraq Governing Council, on that basis. You wouldnât want to go against the League, would you, Walid?
Another thing we need to realize is that no matter how âFox Newsâ or any other so called âpatrioticâ channel tries to convince Americans and the world that Americaâs main cause was for librating Iraqis, it will prove to be nonsense to all who differentiate between normal and abnormal. The USA has its interests and it should not send troops and invade another country unless there is absolutely need to do so. Saddam Husseinâs Iraq was a rogue country, that needed to be taken down. Just ask the Kurds, Christians, Assyrians, Shias, Turks, etc, if you donât agree with that. I think that the CPA should place more emphasis on de-Baathization. And, Walid, you havenât been adverse to lecturing against the tribal culture that leads to daily murders of Yemenis.
The first justification that proved to be absolutely rubbish is that Iraq was a threat to the world, and in particular to the USA because of his âWMDsâ. After this failed to be the case, the US administration shifted to âliberationâ and bringing freedom and democracy from the âfree worldâ to the oppressed people of Iraq. This is also nonsense because the USA is not an angel, and cannot go on freeing any country just because it is living in a dictatorship. The "Enduring Freedom" willing, operated on the assumption, founded by UN fact-finding organizations, that massive amounts of inventoried Iraqi WMD are missing. I still believe that they are out there.
Then we come to the question: Why go all this way and lose so many people and money? I donât want to give an exact answer, because I may be unjust in my conclusions if I say it was just for oil, or to divert attention of the American public from the internal US economic scandals and problems. All I would say is that the real reason needs to be investigated, and if taxpayers who paid for this war with their money and lives are not interested to know, who will be? The commitment is based on implemention of US foreign policy. Numerous countries and peoples believe that removal of the Baathist tyranny accomplished both unilateral and bilateral objectives. US losses will drop during "Operation Iron Hammer." Even Fallujahis will get sick of the shaheeds, al-Muhajirounis, Baathist pimps, and mercenary whores who are destroying their city.
Then we come to the optimistic Bush scenario of things in Iraq: Iraqis will be happy and a democratic government will be elected. This government, unlike the earlier ones, will not be hostile to the USA, and hence will enable it to gain all the money spent on Iraq back in terms of oil or contracts to rebuild the country. I strongly oppose any concession that would undermine a secular constitution for Iraq. Neither Kurds nor Shias, etc will accept an Islamofascist constitution that would advance Iraqi equivalents of Pakistanâs nation wreckers like Qazi Hussein and Khurshid Ahmad, and the rest of the MMA clowns.
Well, if this assumption is right, then that assumes that Iraqis love the USA and would elect a government that is friendly to the USA. Let me cut this sentence here by just quoting a story from UK-based international news network Reuters, which is just one of so many similar news items broadcast even on CNN:
âIraqi teenagers cheer as American blood flows: If Washington doubts there is Iraqi public support for guerrillas killing its troops, it should consider the teenagers who happily watched American blood spill on Wednesday⊠ââThis is good. If they ask me, I will join the resistance. The Americans have to die,ââ said Ali Qais, 15.ââ
At Reuters, if you are suspected of objectivity, you are fired. They are low-grade panderers, and subversives. CNN is just biased and not depraved like the Reutersâ lefties.
So, as can be seen, Iraqis want Americans slaughtered and not just wounded. âTeenage boys were irritated to hear that two American soldiers were just wounded, not killed.â So this means that in truly democratic elections, any puppet government cannot be brought to power against the Iraqi peopleâs will. If you had enough common sense to subject media poisoners like al-Jazeera, to the BS meter, you might learn that the above is subjective reporting at its worst.
To be continued next week: Why the US Will Fail in Iraq Canât wait for your next piece of Arab self-pity, Walid. Try the modern world for a change. Al-Saqqaf is Arabic for crybaby.
Posted by: Anonon ||
11/20/2003 3:31:08 AM ||
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I don't think the rest of the world understands SNAFU... except the Brits and Aussies.
"The Americans have problems! Hold the presses!"
Bah. American history is a continuous story of things being screwed up.
#2
you make a very poor argument,
there are clearly no weapons of WMD despite what you "believe". If the US military with all it satellites and technology can't find em, they ain't there. Can't be bothered to argue the rest of your uneducated, insular carping
What was that Kay said the other day about "Alpha" and "Charlie"?
If the US military with all it satellites and technology can't find em, they ain't there.
By that standard, none of the following exist:
o Osama bin Laden
o Saddam Hussein
o Marijuana plants in California
Then there's the assumption that "satellites and technology" make you omniscient...
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
11/20/2003 8:09 Comments ||
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"Even if occupiers think they are doing good, they will always be bad in the eyes of the people of the occupied territory. Hence, it is obvious that Iraqis will not like Americans. "
This is a nice tight expression of perhaps the key anti-war meme around. Note that there is NO - repeat NO - citation of ANY info from within Iraq to support the notion that Iraqis oppose the occupation (and lets not be naive, they could find SOME) This is an a priori, deductive line of reasoning, not an empirical one. All occupations are hated by the occupied, ERGO the Iraqis MUST hate the occupation - no need to get confused by facts on the ground - the deductive argument is considered so powerful that any contradictory observations from Iraq must be incorrect. That is why to a considerable extent the antiwar and prowar points of view on Iraq simply talk past each other - one is arguing from inductive reasoning, one from deductive reasoning.
#6
Pardon - he does LATER cite one quote expressing hostility to the occupation - but its clear that he's made his determination based on the deductive argument, the quote is just to add punch.
You reference to tech and satellites is very flawed, technology isn't everything. The United States, contrary to what people like you try and make us out to be, the US is not perfect. The weapons in question are not nukes in hardened silos, but something that can be created in most high school chem labs. Very easily hidden and destroyed with cleaning chemicals.
Plus there was activity, prior and during the war, detected by our TECHNOLOGY of convoys of trucks heading for Syria and Lebannon.
But bottom line - if Saddam did not have these weapons he should not of acted (threatened) like he did.
History does prove he did have these type of weapons and that his military knew how to use them. Do you need an history lesson (very recent history) as to when and how he used them?
And if you cannot be bothered why post? As for the uneducated you should go back to grammar school, last I knew 'em' is not a word.
Posted by: Dan ||
11/20/2003 11:33 Comments ||
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See "Polls" section of the Coalition Provisional Authority website: http://www.cpa-iraq.org/
Posted by: Vlad the Muslim Impaler ||
11/20/2003 12:25 Comments ||
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JB how's the Rantburg education coming along? I've noted a certain reasonableness... :)
LONDON (AP) - President Bush urged Europe on Wednesday to put aside bitter war disagreements with the United States and work to build democracy in Iraq or risk turning the nation over to terrorists. Anti-war demonstrators mobilized for a march of tens of thousands on Thursday.
Bush conceded in a speech that deep differences remain over Iraq, even among staunch war allies, the United States and Britain. But, he asserted, ``we did not charge hundred of miles into the heart of Iraq and pay a bitter cost of casualties and liberate 25 million people only to retreat before a band of thugs and assassins.ââ
His speech followed an elegant welcoming ceremony with Queen Elizabeth II at Buckingham Palace, which included a 41-gun salute and a review of troops on foot and on horseback.
Meanwhile, anti-war protesters made preparations for huge demonstrations against Bushâs 3-day state visit. There were isolated, smaller demonstrations around the city on Wednesday. At one point, as the presidentâs motorcade arrived at Banqueting House for his speech, noisy demonstrators could be seen and easily heard just two blocks away. The demonstrators, held back by police lines, could not be heard inside the hall where Bush spoke.
Bush acknowledged differing views about U.S.-led involvement in postwar Iraq, but said, ``Whatever has come before, we now have only two options: To keep our word or to break our word.ââ
``Failure of democracy in Iraq would throw its people back into misery and turn that country over to terrorists who wish to destroy us,ââ Bush told about 400 foreign policy experts and invited guests.
He was warmly received with applause. Iâm struck by Bushâs basic decency: after all the invective and double-dealing, he gently calls upon the Europeans to live up to their better natures.
Bush asserted that there are times, as with Saddam Hussein in Iraq, when ``the violent restraint of violent menââ is justified. ``In some cases, the measured use of force is all that protects us from a chaotic world ruled by force,ââ he said.
Bush said he still strongly supports international organizations, like the United Nations, which he bypassed in going to war in Iraq. But he said the United Nations must be willing to enforce its own demands - or lose its relevancy. Might already be lost, but here Bush is trying to help. Really amazing; one wonders what a Democrat who felt viciously snubbed by the UN would do.
Turning to the Middle East, Bush cited several months of ``setbacks and frustrations.ââ He said European leaders ``should withdraw all favor and support from any Palestinian leader who fails his people and betrays their cause,ââ an explicit apparent reference to Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.
Bush urged Israel to end the ``daily humiliationââ of Palestinians and not to undercut peace prospects ``with the placements of walls and fences.ââ There he goes again, being even-handed.
Also on Wednesday, Bush met with leaders of Parliament and some relatives of the 67 British victims of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States. On Thursday, Bush meets with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, whose close support of Bush on Iraq has drawn rising public opposition in Britain. ``It really is about time we started to realize who our allies are, who our enemies are, stick with the one and fight the other,ââ Blair told the House of Commons earlier. His remarks drew loud applause. Bravo, bravo!
Bush and first lady Laura Bush were guests of honor at a white-tie state dinner Wednesday night, held in room with cathedral ceilings at Buckingham Palace, where the Bushes were staying during the visit. Oversized paintings and tapestries covered the walls and the deep red carpet matched roses that overflowed from tables set with china, flatware and glasses dating to the time of King George IV in the early 1800s.
``You led the response to an unprovoked terrorist attack, which was on a scale never seen before,ââ the queen said in toasting Bush. ``Our two countries stand firm in their determination to defeat terrorism.ââ In a return toast, Bush said the United States and Britain had a long history of fighting together in defense of common values and ``once again weâre acting to secure the peace of the world.ââ
Meanwhile, Liberal Democrat leader Charles Kennedy, who met with Bush for half an hour, said Bush told him he hoped the controversy over the United States holding of nine British citizens at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, could be resolved ``in the next week or two.ââ Kennedy, in an interview with British television, said Bush indicated that, while the matter was under review by the U.S. Supreme Court, ``if the British authorities remain unhappy with that, then at the end of the day the Americans will have to accept that they have to come back to our country for trial under our processes.ââ Thatâs big news! Weâll hand them back to the Brits?
Secretary of State Colin Powell, in an interview with the BBC, said he expected the issue to be resolved ``in the very near future.ââ Blair was expected to press Bush on the matter when they meet on Thursday. I think theyâve struck a deal to help Tony out of a sore spot with his people. I suspect the Brits will whack these nine about as thoroughly as we would.
Posted by: Steve White ||
11/20/2003 12:07:52 AM ||
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I suspect the Brits will whack these nine about as thoroughly as we would.
I wouldn't bank on it. Sentences will be shorter, death won't be an option, and imprisonment conditions, if those of Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi, the Lockerbie bomber convicted of the murder of 270 people, are an indicator, will be nothing short of disgraceful.
#2
``Whatever has come before, we now have only two options: To keep our word or to break our word.
Great speech, but why does he make the choice so easy for Chirac?
Posted by: Matt ||
11/20/2003 7:30 Comments ||
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If Europe can't or won't, then there's no reason to sweat it - the U.S. will do all the lifting. Of course that means that the U.S. has the final word on what goes on there, but then there's no reason for anyone to have a say in something they have no investment in.
#4
I don't have a problem with giving these guys back to the Brits as long as the perps understand that the US has their DNA samples and fingerprints and if they are ever found in a war zone fighting against us or in the US at all, their lives are forfeit.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
11/20/2003 17:57 Comments ||
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The US has hinted it may release the Britons being held at Guantanamo Bay, so they can be tried in the UK instead. The offer was hinted at by US Secretary of State Colin Powell, visiting the UK along with US President George W Bush. Mr Powell told BBC One's News at Ten: "The president is very sensitive to the views of the prime minister and the British people about the detainees." Flanked by his UK counterpart Jack Straw, he said: "We expect to be resolving this in the near future."
Liberal Democrat leader Charles Kennedy, who met Mr Bush for 30 minutes on Wednesday, said Mr Bush had told him he hoped the Guantanamo controversy could be resolved "in the next week or two". Mr Kennedy said Mr Bush indicated that he was prepared to address the issue after the US Supreme Court had considered the matter. "He [Bush] has been clear to us that the Supreme Court is looking at the way in which this matter will be handled legally," he said. "But if the British authorities remain unhappy with that, then at the end of the day the Americans will have to accept that they have to come back to our country for trial under our processes."
That would be politically expedient, but it would also mean that nationals of other countries with which we have friendly relations — in some cases, putatively friendly relations — would expect to have their internees returned, too. So there's lots of worms to be found in that can.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:07 ||
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Maybe it's time to send those Saudi Arabian Prison Fire Prevention experts down there...
#2
yep, send them back to Australia, the funny thing is...they haven't broken ANY Australian laws. Irrelevant from the fact whether they are guilty or not, Johnny Howard doesn't have the backbone to stand up to Dubya, it is a concern that the Australian government is not prepared to provide help to its own nationals captured in a foreign country (and held by a third country) who have not broken any Australian laws. I also don't think that US laws extend to Afghanistan/Pakistan either (then again I don't think the yanks really give a toss). At least the Brits had some backbone and made some fuss about it however useless it was.
#3
At least the Brits had some backbone and made some fuss about it however useless it was.
There's an expression for this, only it's not backbone - it's common sense to want to avoid having suspected terrorists return for a second chance at wreaking havoc. Howard does have the right kind of backbone - the fortitude to stand up to the kind of left-wing anti-American crazies personified by Igs.
#4
geez not this anti american thing again, some ppl are just paranoid, get over it, there are many things which I do admire about the US but I do the reserve the right to also dislike many things, this doesn't make me anti american, left leaning, commie favouring or whatever else you might come up with
now, read your post again 'suspected terrorists' it says, which actually means that they have not been proven guilty (apart from the fact that they haven't actually been charged with anything). Haven't the americans come up with that wonderful slogan of innocent until proven guilty?
Now as to the terrorists bit, neither of them have engaged in terrorist actions. Hicks might have fought on the taleban side (which makes him a moron) but that doesn't say he is a terrorist, just because he might have fought against the US, so what, didn't realise it is illegal to fight against the US, certainly not in Australia.
Howard doesn't have a backbone, he's a lying, opportunistic, racists, bigoted moron who can't get over living in the 50s and the white australia policy which existed then. The sooner he goes, the better this country will be (and no I'm not necessarily advocating a Labour government for those who thought they might catch me here, or greens or democrats), even Costello would make hell of alot better PM.
#5
The problem is that "suspected terrorists" is not the same as a suspected arsonist, or suspected rapist. The amount of damage they can do far exceeds that of an ordinary criminal. That is why this is a war, and why we have to treat such folks as unlawful combantants, instead of regular criminals.
Accepting the rights of a suspect has costs, including the cost that the suspect is guilty and will do the crime again. In ordinary circumstances, we have decided we will allow the increased risk of murder, rape or theft by observing the rights of the suspect. But for ordinary crimes, the cost is fairly low. For terrorists who goal is to commit as much destruction and murder as possible, the cost is simply too high.
Which goes back to something I have been saying for some time. There are a large part of the population, both here in the US and abroad, who don't believe we are at war. That the bad guys want to kill us, kill all of us.
Hicks, if he fought for the Taliban, may be a moron. But the laws, nor the Geneva convention deal with stupidity. Serving a foreign military, without uniforms or recognizable rank identification, is a violation of the Geneva convention and as such, renders him an unlawful combantant, to be held until the war is over.
Posted by: Ben ||
11/20/2003 5:21 Comments ||
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"I also don't think that US laws extend to Afghanistan/Pakistan either (then again I don't think the yanks really give a toss)."
-US laws have nothing to do w/it. A person wielding a weapon at U.S. troops but not in a military uniform themselves is a combatant. No, it is not illegal to fight against the U.S., if say for example your in the PRC Army or Nkor army and wearing a uniform. Pretty obvious stuff. We could've shot Hicks on the spot if we wanted to. And yes, he is a moron. And no, we don't give a toss. He's in Gitmo, getting 3 square a day, enjoying the freedom to practice his religion and no longer a danger to anyone, (like women, non-muslims, etc.)
I won't go into the anti-American thing as I feel many honest people w/differing opinions get that label.
#7
Serving a foreign military, without uniforms or recognizable rank identification, is a violation of the Geneva convention and as such, renders him an unlawful combantant, to be held until the war is over.
Or shot out of hand; the GC doesn't protect unlawful combatants.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
11/20/2003 8:14 Comments ||
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#8
In the grand scheme of things there would be less damage by turning Australian and British ex-Talibani to their respective governments (and potential freedom) than Israel freeing hundreds of militants for a handful of Israeli's.
#9
Igs: geez not this anti american thing again, some ppl are just paranoid, get over it, there are many things which I do admire about the US but I do the reserve the right to also dislike many things, this doesn't make me anti american, left leaning, commie favouring or whatever else you might come up with
Igs may say he's not anti-American, but the objective truth is that he cares more about the fate of suspected terrorists than the lives of their potential victims. In my book, that makes him anti-American.
Admiring things about America ranks up there with admiring the captain of the football team or admiring gold medal Olympic athletes - we're the best at many of the things we do - this admiration makes him just another envious hanger-on rather than a friend. Even bin Laden admires much about America, especially our ability to turn out much of the high tech equipment he relies on for command and control.
#10
Come now, IGS. Are we speaking of Lou Costello, or Elvis?
Posted by: Brian ||
11/20/2003 10:54 Comments ||
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#11
Ben's brings up a valid point -
Serving a foreign military, without uniforms or recognizable rank identification, is a violation of the Geneva convention and as such, renders him an unlawful combantant, to be held until the war is over.
This needs to be discussed in the media (but the truth being debated - wow now that would be a concept for our liberal media. And for the BBC probably impossible).
Ben is also correct in the fact that most Americans do not feel we are at war. It is shame since it allows feelings of compasion for these suspected (scumbags) terrorists.
If these a-holes were captured by the majority of militaries in the world this would not be an issue since they would be dead.
Posted by: Dan ||
11/20/2003 11:17 Comments ||
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#12
IGS, you reserve the right to dislike many things about America. Spit'm out. The problem regarding the "suspected terroist" is whinning. Those in Briton who so desperatly object about those creeps are just grasping at straws to lash out at the US. IGS your a whinner. I've got problems with the US, like traffic jams, confiscation laws and people who think this war is some sort of a legal issue.
#14
Brian, we have Abbot and Costello on the Liberal front bench in Australia :p
so Zhang Fei, I'm anti-american, kewl, never realised it, to think of it I must be anti all countries just about, except Andorra, not sure what I can fault them for yet
I find it rather laughable ppl describing others as anti-american or whatever else, it only reflects the shallowness of their own conviction and beliefs
Ben with regards to the supected bit, after two years perhaps it's time to charge them with something. Somehow I don't think that holding them for intelligence reasons after such a long time is of any value.
#16
Igs: I find it rather laughable ppl describing others as anti-american or whatever else, it only reflects the shallowness of their own conviction and beliefs
What's shallow is Igs's view that calling himself not anti-American makes him not anti-American. Anti-Americanism has nothing to do with declarations of intent - it has to do with the consequences of what people believe, not what they say they believe. Calling for measures that can have devastating consequences for the physical safety of large numbers of Americans makes people like Igs objectively anti-American, whatever his professed convictions.
EFL:
Turkeyâs state-owned Anatolia news agency received a statement purportedly from the Turkish radical group the Islamic Front of Raiders of the Greater East (IBDA-C) claiming responsibility for the attacks on the British consulate and the Turkish headquarters of HSBC Bank. The statement said that the bombings were a joint operation with al-Qaida. Then it get weird:âThe attacks were jointly carried out by IBDA-C and al Qaida. Our attacks against Masonic circles will continue. Muslims are not alone,â Anatolia quoted the statement as saying. The Masonic Circles?
They're storming Bilderberg next month. The Illuminati are gonna get it, too. And the Secret Knights of Malta â toast! And when they bump off the Merovingian Pretender they'll finally have Dire Revenge⢠for that Charles Martel thing...
Y'know, these tinfoil turbans aren't nearly as heavy as they look...
Posted by: Steve ||
11/20/2003 4:03:14 PM ||
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Our attacks against Masonic circles will continue. Muslims are not alone,
A glance at militant Islamic groups active in Turkey: A primer from the AP. And yes, Murat, I know they did not include any of the Kurdish terrorist groups, I guess they are on a seperate list:
_ Islamic Great Eastern Raiders-Front, or IBDA-C: The group advocates Islamic rule in this predominantly Muslim but officially secular country and is allegedly backed by Iran. The Anatolia news agency said the group claimed responsibility for Thursdayâs deadly attacks on a London-based bank and the British consulate. The IBDA-C also claimed responsibility for deadly Nov. 15 suicide bombings outside two synagogues in Istanbul. Active since the mid-1970âs, the group has become increasingly violent in the last decade and has an estimated 600 followers. The IBDA-C has staged attacks on left-wing and Christian targets. Its leader, Salih Izzet Erdis, also known as Salih Mirzabeyoglu, was captured in 1998. A man calling the Anatolia news agency said that al-Qaida and the IBDA-C, jointly claimed responsibility for todays attacks. Maybe they did, maybe they just wanted credit for them.
_ Hezbollah: The Sunni Muslim group is not linked to Lebanon-based Shiite Hezbollah but is also allegedly backed by Iran. It aims to create an Islamic state in Turkeyâs mainly Kurdish regions. The group, which has a few thousand followers, is believed to be behind hundreds of killings of opponents in the region. The leader of the groupâs most militant wing was killed in a shootout in Istanbul in 2000. Turkey allegedly supported Hezbollah when it was formed in the early 1980s, because it fought autonomy-seeking Kurdish rebels. Because the Kurds are not islamic enough or because they wanted autonomy or both?
_ Islamic Action: Known for its strong affiliation with Iran, it aims to establish an Islamic state. Its members reportedly received military training in Iran. Authorities believe that the group was behind the killings of a few pro-secular Turkish intellectuals in the early 1990s.
_ Beyyiat el-Imam, a little-known group formed in al-Qaida camps in Afghanistan whose name is Arabic for "Allegiance to the Imam," or cleric. The daily newspaper Hurriyet, citing police, reported that six suspects arrested for the Istanbul synagogue attacks were members of this group. The prime suspects in the synagogue blasts. Suspects being "questioned" at length.
Posted by: Steve ||
11/20/2003 2:42:25 PM ||
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#1
Iran vs a free Kurdish state? Turkey in the middle. Is Turkey looking at Iran as a threat?
#2
"Because the Kurds are not islamic enough or because they wanted autonomy or both?"
Both.
Turkey was funding these guys. Kurds (and particularly the PKK) fought against islamic fundamentalism in the area. If it wasn´t for the PKK, you guys would have your own "Afghanistan" with Turkish Talibans in northern (Turkish) Kurdistan.
#3
The Iranian muleocracy seems to be quite busy stirring up trouble with its neighbors. May be time to start funding a few anti-mule groups to stir up trouble in Iran. I'm sure there must be SOMEONE that is willing to make nasty with these tired old men and their exhausted ideas.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
11/20/2003 19:45 Comments ||
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Radioactive material seized by Czech police during a sting operation last week was found to be harmless and could not have been used for weapons or terrorism, Czech TV reported Thursday. The report was based on an interview with Dana Drabova, director of the Czech nuclear safety agency SUJB. The SUJB analyzed the three kilos of material that police seized Friday in a Brno hotel. Two Slovak men who allegedly tried to sell the material for 600,000 euros were arrested. Drabova did not identify the material, which was reportedly in the form of metal rods, but said it was old and probably came from a former Soviet bloc country. The two men have been charged with unauthorized possession of radioactive substances, and face up to 15 years in prison.
So now they can just spend a few years in jug, rather than having the turbans put out a contract fatwah on them for gypping them...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 12:59 ||
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I wonder how many 'spent fuel rods' made of lead the terrorist mutts have purchased? Keyser Soze must be making a fortune off those idiots.
German prosecutors on Wednesday demanded a five-year jail term for a Jordanian man suspected of plotting attacks on Jewish targets, saying that only his arrest had prevented them being carried out. In summing up, federal prosecutor Dirk Fernholz said he had asked for half the maximum sentence of 10 years because the accused had provided âan abundance of detailâ about Al-Tawhid group and its operations.
Boy, I'd like to read that report...
Shadi Mohammad Mustafa Abdullah stands accused of belonging to Al-Tawhid and plotting attacks on two Jewish restaurants in the city of Duesseldorf and a Jewish community centre in Berlin. He is also charged with passport forgery.
They all do that...
German and US intelligence experts say there have been close links between it and Al Qaeda network.
During his trial, Abdullah has said that he planned the attacks in Germany and served for a time as Bin Laden's bodyguard. Doubts have been cast on whether his testimony could be believed. But the prosecution said his evidence had been âfor the most part reliable.â Fernholz said the suspect's plans would have had terrible consequences. âThe planning had certainly reached more than the preliminary stage,â he said. Abdullah's task in the operation had been to âfind appropriate targets and procure weapons,â said public prosecutor Christian Monka in his summary.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 12:52 ||
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#1
Don't terrorists usually just get community service in Germany?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
11/20/2003 18:10 Comments ||
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#2
"Salaam, may I help you?"
Yeah, I'm Shadi Mohammad Mustafa Abdullah, and I'm here for my 72 virgins. "Do you have an appointment?"
Naa, I just boomed a Jooish restaurant in Heidelberg. "I see. Mr. Abdullah, I don't have any record of your being one of our people."
Oh, wait, that's not my real name! My real name is Walid al-Saqqaf al Ghamdi. That other name is just the one I use on my Infidel passport. "Oh, I see... I think. One moment, please.
"I'm sorry, sir, but there's no record of that name, either."
But, but... oh, wait. I think my mother named me something else when I was born. Give me a minute, let me think. "Uh, sir. You're holding up the line."
Just give me a minute, I'm sure I'll remember my real name... "Sorry, sir, we really need to get on with this... NEXT!"
But, but... "Boss, 'nother Arab moron can't remember his real name, what should I do?" "Standard procedure, my son, is to send him back as a Jew..."
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
11/20/2003 20:15 Comments ||
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The French city of Strasbourg has angered local Muslim leaders by insisting they stop preaching in Arabic and help fight juvenile delinquency if they want a subsidy to help build a mosque. Mayor Fabienne Keller informed Muslim leaders last week that the municipal subsidy also required that they preach a âFrench Islamâ, guarantee womenâs rights and inform City Hall about their view on whether Muslim girls should wear head scarves. You want government money, you have to follow government rules.
The association planning the Grand Mosque of Strasbourg rejected the demand and said it would rather forego the subsidy â amounting to 10 percent of the six million euro ($7.16 million) overall cost â than go along with the cityâs demands. âWeâre not asking for charity ...(we could) do without the cityâs help,â Abderrahim El Heloui, secretary-general of the mosque association, told the Dernieres Nouvelles dâAlsace daily in the eastern French city yesterday. "We have other sources of funding. Ali, place a call to Riyadh."
On preaching only in French, he said: âThatâs a theological issue, politicians have nothing to do with it.â Most of Franceâs five million Muslims are of Arab North African origin. They consider themselves Muslims living in France, not French muslims.
El Heloui also bristled at the suggestion that Muslim leaders help fight juvenile delinquency, saying it implied that the mosque was in regular contact with young lawbreakers. Yes, we have noticed that, itâs called "complicity".
France launched a council of Muslim communities last year to help deal with issues such as construction subsidies, which the state offers to all recognized religions. Some politicians have said they hoped Muslim leaders would return the favor by exerting their supposed influence to bring more order to the unruly suburban slums where many Muslims live. France was trying to set up a French flavored brand of Islam, we all knew that was doomed to fail.
El Heloui said the cityâs query about head scarves, which Paris is considering officially banning from public schools, was a political question he could not decide. âIf there is a ban, weâll be the first to riot respect it,â he said.
Strasbourg, home to the European Parliament and Council of Europe, has for years debated the issue of whether it should allow its Muslim community to build a large central mosque. "One mosque to rule them all, one mosque to find them,
One mosque to bring them all and in the darkness bind them."
Posted by: Steve ||
11/20/2003 10:27:44 AM ||
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#1
ive been in synagogues where sermons were given in Yiddish, and one where it was given in Hebrew (of course in 98% - including Orthodox -its in English.) IIUC in the 19th C there were Reform Synagogues in the US where sermons were given in German - as also in some Lutheran churches. And of course there are gads of churches where i live today that advertise services in Spanish.
But none of the above asked for government funds of any kind. " issues such as construction subsidies, which the state offers to all recognized religions. " See thats the problem. You dont have a Wall of Seperation, you inevitably get the govt involved in the details of religion. Where it dont belong.
#2
France has separation of church and state issues that make the US stuff look like little league.
Steve (one of the Army of Stevesâ¢)---
"One mosque to rule them all, one mosque to find them,
One mosque to bring them all and in the darkness bind them."
That one is a keeper! ROTFLMAO!
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
11/20/2003 11:40 Comments ||
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#3
France was trying to set up a French flavored brand of Islam...
French Vanallah?
Posted by: john ||
11/20/2003 11:53 Comments ||
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#4
Radical separationists in the U.S. are
usually worried about the religions controling
the state. The reality is that in the modern
world mingling church and state makes religion
subordinate to the state.
#8
JH is absolutely correct. And even if the LLL's fears about a theocratically Christian US is fulfilled, Hypocrites and accompished actors like Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton would become Church leaders just to get their power hungry hands on the levers of power, and to hell with the flock. (Little consolation that they'd have stiff competition from some of the present incumbents in certain quarters...)
Christians should have a say in how the government is run, and Christians, as citizens, should be able to run for and hold political office, become judges, and be permitted the same, not fewer or more, political privileges as anyone else. But let the political structure of one interfere with the other? No way!
Britons have been warned against making all but the most essential travel to Istanbul following Thursdayâs blasts. The British Consulate and the HSBC bank headquarters in the city were hit in a series of explosions which killed at least 25 people and injured 400. British Consul-General Roger Short is among those missing. Witnesses reported seeing a van driving straight at the consulate building before the explosion. UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said it was clear a number of Britons had died. At least 14 people are reported to have been killed at the consulate. Britons were recommended not to travel to Istanbul unless on "essential business" but Foreign Office advice for the rest of Turkey has not changed. The Foreign Office said there was "a significant threat from terrorism in Turkey".
In a statement to the foreign secretary the Queen said she was "deeply shocked" to hear of the attacks. "Please pass my deepest sympathy to all caught up in these evil acts of terrorism", she said. "My thoughts and prayers are with the bereaved and injured and those still waiting for news". A spokesman for the Association of British Travel Agents said there were thought to be less than 100 UK tourists in Istanbul at the moment. Millions of Britons visit Turkey every year but most tend to go to coastal resorts, such as Bodrum, which are many miles from Istanbul. Murat, be sure to wave your countryâs tourist economy a cheery goodbye.
British Airways, which operates twice-daily return flights between London and Istanbul held its 1010 GMT Istanbul-bound flight from Heathrow for 30 minutes while considering the situation. Eventually BA decided the flight should leave and it has decided flights would continue for the time being. But a BA spokeswoman told BBC News Online the airline would continually review their position in light of the situation. The Foreign Office, in advice posted on its website on Thursday, said: "We advise against all but the most essential travel to Istanbul, until the situation becomes clearer. "Until further notice, the British Consulate in Istanbul will not be able to provide the full range of services." (That has to rank as understatement of the month.)
It goes on to say: "We urge you to be vigilant in all parts of the country, and especially in the vicinity of potential terrorist targets."
Tony Blair has said the bombings in Istanbul reminded everybody of the "evil" terrorists posed to innocent people all over the world. President Bush, in London on a state visit, also condemned the attacks. Mr Blair said Britain must "stand side by side with the United States, and others, to rid our world of this evil once and for all". He expressed his condolences to all those who had died in Istanbul.
BBC correspondent Steve Bryant said the emergency services in Istanbul were struggling to get to grips with the aftermath of the explosions, which happened almost simultaneously. He said eyewitness reports suggested a car, laden with explosives, rammed the main gate of the consulate and caused "devastation", destroying a building. The British Ambassor to Turkey, Peter Westmacott, is en route from Ankara to Istanbul. The Metropolitan Police is sending a number of officers from the Anti-Terrorist Squad to Istanbul to help with the investigation. HSBC issued a statement which said: "Two HSBC buildings have been struck by the bomb blasts across the city, including our head office in Levent. "It is with deep regret that we have to confirm that there have been a number of fatalities. Our thoughts are with the bereaved, the injured and their families."
The British consulate in Istanbul was previously targeted in April when an explosive device was thrown at the building. Murat, who did that - was it Americans, Brits or Jews? You must have strong suspicions, at least.
Also in April, three small devices exploded in the town of Izmir, one of which was near the British consulate. Arenât you in or near Izmir, Murat? You ought to know which Western agents were resonsible then.
Posted by: Bulldog ||
11/20/2003 10:08:42 AM ||
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After all they did to not support the US when we moved on Iraq, this is the thanks they get.
But that's not the real issue that Al-Qaeda has with Turkey. You see, it's all Attaturk's fault.
That Bastard! ;-)
Posted by: Daniel King ||
11/20/2003 10:52 Comments ||
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#2
Istanbul ânot safeâ for Britons
It's not just the Poms - the whole Middle East isn't safe for a whole bunch of different people.
#4
Aww, let's take it easy on Murat and see how the Turks handle this on their own: It's not as if they are inexperienced in this, given earlier run ins they've had with the Kurdish resistance.
Let's remember 9/11: we've demanded everyone else get a clue about us when we were attacked, and it's appropriate that we practice what we preach. We felt totally fucked over for days afterwards, and didn't see much action even 48 hours after the attacks.
Like the French, the Turks thought they would be shielded from Al-Q and their buddies by opposing the United States, only to get screwed over for all their effort.
Hell, the Turks will get a clue long before the french will...
#5
We felt totally fucked over for days afterwards, and didn't see much action even 48 hours after the attacks.
Yep, that's because we were counting to 1000 backwards 17 times. I expect GB could have destroyed Kabul without any public outcry in the first 10 days after the incident.
#8
Kabul, Islamabad, Riyad, Tehran, Damascus, Baghdad..
That's the short list. The full list of potential targets I emailed the President contained 268 names, some of which most people wouldn't even know existed. With a 1/3MT nuke on each, the death toll would have exceeded that of the WTC by a couple of orders of magnitude...
Probably wouldn't have been anybody left to give orders to the (few) survivors.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
11/20/2003 20:07 Comments ||
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Turkish police have found clues pointing to Pakistani links in last weekâs synagogue bombings in Istanbul, a report said on Thursday. Three of the four Turkish suicide bombers involved in the attacks received training in Pakistan and Iran while the background of the fourth man was still not clear, The Turkish Daily News reported. The paper also said that the police found pieces of a Pakistani passport believed to belong to one of the attackers. But it did not say why a Turk would have a Pakistani passport. What terrorist doesnât have at least one Pakistani passport?
The local media carried the names and photos of the four terrorists on Thursday. "Four Al Qaeda Turkish militants organised synagogue bombings," a headline in the Turkish Sabah newspaper said. Six people were arrested on Wednesday in connection with the bombings. Truncheon time!
Meanwhile, a police official in Dubai denied reports in the Turkish press that two accomplices of the attackers, Azad Ekinci, and Feridun Ugurlu, had fled to Dubai before the bombings. The official said that they went through the airport records during the past month and the two names were not listed. Well, duh! Itâs not like theyâd use their real names if they are on the run.
They were checking the photographs published in the media to determine if the two had entered the country. Most likely they are long gone.
Posted by: Steve ||
11/20/2003 10:02:31 AM ||
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It has been revealed that Mesut Cabuk and Gokhan Elaltuntas, who staged the bomb attacks on two synagogues in Istanbul, and Azad Ekinci and Feridun Ugurlu, who provided logistic support to the attack, were members of terrorist Hezbollah organization. Turkish Hezbollah, unrelated to the other Hezbollah. Well, maybe related by marriage of second cousins.
Officials of the Directorate General of Security who are experts in terrorism stress that the bomb attacks were similar to the attacks staged by Al Qaeda and search for connection between Hezbollah militants and Al Qaeda. So far it looks like the connection is training in Afghanistan or maybe Iran. Always possibility of funding as well. The boomers were Turkish, weâll know more after the Turkish police finish questioning their families.
Security officials had seen traces of Hezbollah in former bomb attacks on synagogues. It was revealed that Hezbollah provided logistic support for the first attack on Neve Shalom Synagogue staged on September 6, 1986 which was also a Saturday. Huseyin Velioglu, the head of the terrorist Hezbollah organization, gave the instructions for the second attack on the synagogue staged on March 1, 1992. Hezbollah, booming Jews since "86".
Posted by: Steve ||
11/20/2003 9:14:05 AM ||
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Update: Authorities arrested six people Wednesday in the synagogue bombings. A Turkish court charged five with "attempting to overthrow the constitutional structure," which carries a sentence of life imprisonment. The sixth was charged with "helping illegal organizations," punishable by five years in prison, Anatolia said. No trial date was set.
Posted by: Steve ||
11/20/2003 9:34 Comments ||
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#2
Time for a sustained aerial bombardment of southern Lebanon, followed by an assault on the Bekaa Valley. If "messages" are trying to be sent, such an action would send a nice, clear one.
#3
Turkish Hezbollah's a different critter from Lebanese Hezbollah. There's also a Soddy organization of the same name, and an internal mob in Iran with that name.
We aren't talking about real original thinkers here.
Posted by: Fred ||
11/20/2003 14:21 Comments ||
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#4
Iran has the Ansar-e Hezbollahi, they're more into beating student demonstrators than blowing things up (it's the SMKI aka People's Muj who do that kind of thing.) There were rumours that the MIT used to tolerate Turkish Hizbullah because TH had 'problems' with the PKK (lefties & nationalists too - how unislamic can you get!) Dunno if things have changed since Ocalan got nabbed.
Posted by: Dave ||
11/20/2003 17:18 Comments ||
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Bomb attacks on the British consulate and the HSBC bank headquarters in Istanbul have left at least five dead and many injured. British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw condemned what he described as an "appalling act of terrorism" saying it had all the hallmarks of al-Qaeda and associated organisations. He said three or four consulate employees had not yet been accounted for. The 15-storey bank headquarters is located in a busy shopping area, which correspondents say would have been crowded when the explosion occurred at 1110 Turkish time. The consulate bomb occurred two minutes later.
Turkish Foreign Minister Abullah Gul was quoted as saying that Turkey would not bow to terror. An AFP reporter on the scene said two annexes fronting the consulate had been destroyed. "Itâs total chaos, ambulances cannot get to the scene," said an English teacher at a school next to the consulate, Chris Kitrinos. "The damage is very extensive. Iâve been told that there are people lying around... Civilians are carrying people away from the scene." The Istanbul stock exchange was suspended after the explosions and the lira dived on foreign exchange markets.
A group claiming to be linked to al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for the synagogue attacks last Saturday. It warned that the new attacks against the US and its allies were being planned.
Posted by: Bulldog ||
11/20/2003 6:08:03 AM ||
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Dear Murat: How should we deal with this problem? Should we, perhaps, move Western financial institutions outside the city to a more secure locations? Or was that only for the Jews?
#4
Dragon Fly: Murat doesn't show any "class" when American soldiers die in Iraq, or when the targets of violence in Turkey are Jews. He deserves no cease fire.
#5
IBDA-C and Al Queada claim responsibility but somehow this makes no sense, not because they are not terrorist or something, but IBDA-C is almost non-existing. It's a former terrorist group whose members are all in jail and the chance that the MIT would not detect this group is close to nil.
Al Queada used Arabic nationals in the attacks in the US, in Turkey the DNA investigation revealed them being Turkish nationals of Kurdish descent from Bingol. There are 5000 PKK fighters in Northern Iraq with a plethora of chances to acquire every weapon and explosive there is with the fallout of the government control there and the US is dragging her feet to fight those terrorists or allow Turkish operations against them. Something stinks, Al Queada link could be possible but the IBDA-C link is nonsense, those claims are possibly a distraction and an attempt to mislead.
Posted by: Murat ||
11/20/2003 6:54 Comments ||
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#6
By the way, they come in a very convenient time at Bushâs trip to London to convince the world on âcombating terrorâ. To say it very gently I have great doubts!
Posted by: Murat ||
11/20/2003 6:58 Comments ||
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#7
Why, Murat, would Kurds be targetting the London-based HSBC bank, and the British Consulate?
Will the British be joining the Jews in Turkey's proposed terror ghettos?
Now Murat is accussing Bush of being part of the attack, even though Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility. (By extension, Bush controls part of Al-Qaeda!) Am I allowed to go after him now?
#11
Yeah, it doesn't give you guys food for thought why British related targets have been chosen while George is in London, just coincidence?
Posted by: Murat ||
11/20/2003 7:10 Comments ||
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#12
Most probably not conincidence. And most probably not coincidence that al Qaeda chose Turkey as the place to have an easy shot at us. Are all Turks as mind-bogglingly naive as you, Murat? Do most Turks so desperately want to believe that fellow Muslims wouldn't target them in this way that they'll convince themselves that in the face of all contradictory evidence these attacks were orchestrated by the west? If so, and if consequently Turkey does nothing to prevent further attacks like this, one way or another you can expect a degenerate and bloody future for your country, and it will be utterly deserved.
#13
Do most Turks so desperately want to believe that fellow Muslims wouldn't target them
Absolutely not, I don't believe in religion terror or in the brotherhood of fellow Muslim song you come up with. Just why do the US drag feet on the PKK, they know about 5000 armed terrorists in North Iraq and they donât only leave them they are actively protecting them. Fighting terror, my ass!!!!!
Posted by: Murat ||
11/20/2003 7:25 Comments ||
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#14
We shouldn't worry about fighting terrorism, not even fighting Islamism, but Islam itself. Murat, for example, is not an Islamist, but he's still our enemy. (I expect LiberalHawk's angry reply within the hour.)
#15
Hey Bulldog, (no pun intended, great song though) - I guess Murat thinks the Anglo-'Merikan Jew alliance conjured up the grand plan of bombing their own British capitalist ventures in Turkey. Holy shit, Murat almost put me at a loss for words on this. It had to be the Jooos, I mean c'mon, it was the second biggest bank in the land. We know the infidel Americans, their British accomplices & Jew brethren planned the whole thing. Especially when George was in London. Murat, quick, check how many Brits & Joos didn't show up for work this morning!
Murat, if your right (about the PKK, not the idiotic conspiracy theory) I would support Tukey's fight on them. If the PKK is indeed responsible and not Al Q as is claimed, I would say Turkey should have full U.S. support to do what it has to do.
#16
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups" pretty well sums up my attitude towards Islam and the ME. Undereducated, miseducated, and in perpetual reality-denial: there's your typical in situ Muslim. Murat to a tee.
#17
Murat,
1. Why is it that you think that AQ claims responsibility (or have I missed their recent denial statements for 911/Synagogue/Consulate), when it is so obvious that the Jew and Americans are behind this?
2. How old are you? 16?
3. When are you going to grow up?
Futures: How long before Murat and other logically-challenged individuals claim AQ itself is a wholly owned subsidiary of the ImperialistAmericanZionistConspiracy.
#18
UPDATE: Istanbul Mayor Ali Mufit Gurtuna said on Thursday that they had not contacted with British Consulate General Roger Short yet. Gurtuna told A.A correspondent that Short was missing and could be under the rubble after the blast that occurred in front of British Consulate General in Beyoglu district. ''I was there. Efforts continue. There was restoration in main building of the British Consulate. There were also teams in the secondary buildings of the Consulate. The bomb exploded in front of the secondary building. Teams are exerting efforts. A statement will be made after everything is illuminated. There is a possibility that Short might be under the rubble. Efforts continue. We have not contacted with him yet,'' Gurtuna said.
Posted by: Steve ||
11/20/2003 8:56 Comments ||
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#19
It's really the Crusaders. Yeah, Crusaders trying to throw the infidel moslems out of the Christian Byzantine Empire. The targetting of Jews and British is just a cover... Damn that Bush is an idiot but somehow he sure manages to be the cause and control of everything that happens in the world.
/sarcasm
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
11/20/2003 9:14 Comments ||
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#20
Murat, you said the Turkish police had worked out DNA testing of the perpetrators already? What did they use as a basis for comparison?
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
11/20/2003 9:16 Comments ||
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#21
Murat's "interesting" theories:
Al Queada used Arabic nationals in the attacks in the US, in Turkey the DNA investigation revealed them being Turkish nationals of Kurdish descent from Bingol.
Wonder what those Kurds think about being "Turkish nationals"? Centuries of Turkish repression of the Kurds have nothing to do with the attacks of course. Islamic "charity" money has nothing to do with it. It's all America's fault.
When Ocalan was captured in 1999, the European left fell all over themselves trying to defend the poor, oppressed man. There were marches all over the continent calling Turkey a police state, a bunch of murderers, etc, and, of course, blaming the United States and Israel. It was made perfectly clear that unless Ocalan were not executed, Turkey would never be allowed in the EU (sound familiar Murat?). These are the people Murat thinks have the moral high ground here; these are the people Murat thinks will let him in the EU; these are the people to whom Murat thinks shuld be entrusted the defense of Turkey, Iraq, and the US. How awful Americans are!
Just remember Murat--we demand full, open trials of each member, no matter how long it takes, no matter what sources you compromise, etc. And Noam Chomsky should be allowed to testify before each and every trial--remember when he wanted to do that before Ocalan's (and I think someone else's) trial in Turkey? Maybe it should be done in European courts, now that I think of it.
Why are Turkish citizens more valuable then the ones Al-Q/Baathists kill in Iraq, anyway? Murat seems pretty happy about their dying.
#22
Wow,Murat,this Bush guy is smarter than I thought.After all,he can fool the governments and intelligence agencies of Turkey,Saudi-Arabia,Indonesia etc. to think they're being attacked by Islamic terrorists when it's really the CIA that's blowing shit up.
Thank Bog Murat's out there,listening to the voices in his head.
PS.All this talk of "evidence" and "logic" is just so much Western deceit.If people can't prove you wrong,Murat,then whatever you say goes.Right?
Posted by: El Id ||
11/20/2003 9:34 Comments ||
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#23
Why are Turkish citizens more valuable then the ones Al-Q/Baathists kill in Iraq, anyway? Murat seems pretty happy about their dying.
Where has Murat given an indication that he's saddened or upset by today's Turkish deaths? You're unwittingly anthropomorphizing.
#24
Nobody knew about Al Q till 9/11 and now suddenly they are a global terror organisation with tentacles in many countries carrying out attacks while their homefront in Afghanistan is reduced to dust. It is too cheap to write of as an Al Q attack, I simply donât believe it. I donât say Al Q is a sugar candy, absolutely not they are freaking fucked terrorists, but in this bombings I believe the Al Q claim is a distraction to cover the real perpetrators just as the IBDA-C.
The investigating authorities in Turkey have no clue who are behind it, and hide also behind AL Q claims for now.
And for the rest why should Al Queada target Turkey, there are too many questions open, the only terror group who would profit from such acts is the PKK right now enjoying a semi protection by the US.
Which actions did the US take to fight/disarm or disband them. And if the US currently donât have the men and material to do it, why are they refusing Turkey to hunt them down, what kind of fighting terror is that anyway. One of zero credibility!
Posted by: Murat ||
11/20/2003 9:36 Comments ||
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#25
Murat, you said the Turkish police had worked out DNA testing of the perpetrators already? What did they use as a basis for comparison?
The DNA of their family members, the trucks they used where traced to belong to family members of the suicide bombers.
Posted by: Murat ||
11/20/2003 9:40 Comments ||
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#26
Murat, Al Q has been a significant problem for us since at least 1993 (initial WTC bombing). Just because we had a feckless leader at the time, who didn't take decisive action against them, doesn't mean we didn't know about them.
As to your question "why should Al Queada target Turkey" -- why shouldn't they target a secular, majority Islamic country? Their goal is shari'a for all, and Turkey isn't cooperating...
CNN now says that British consul general has been killed. My sympathies to both Turkey & Britain...
#27
Turkish T.V. reported that British Consul-General Roger Short was killed; he had been reported as missing shortly after the blast. But a U.S. official in Turkey told Fox News that there is no confirmation of this report yet.
Posted by: Murat ||
11/20/2003 10:02 Comments ||
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#29
1. Kurds doesnt mean theyer not AQ - everyone forget about Al Ansar? Kurds arent immune to radical islamism
2. Why would an alliance between PKK and AQ be impossible? For an operation that has mutual benefits?
Posted by: Murat ||
11/20/2003 10:10 Comments ||
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#31
Thanks snellenr, Seafarious, Murat(!). Murat, I'm sorry for all the victims, Brits, Turks, all who were killed, mutilated and bereaved today, but I feel anger more than saddness. Today's carnage is already history - what has to be done now is everything possible to stop the same thing happening again, and that means acknowledging who did it and what needs to be done. And that includes not promulgating insane conspiracy theories.
#34
Al Queda is looking to disrupt things in Iraq. It doesn't take a genious to figure the Turks would try to blame the Kurds since they're looking for a reason to smash the Kurds again.
The other thing to look at is Al Queda has attempted to drive westerners out of Indonesia with the Bali bombing, and out of Saudi Arabia with attacks on western compounds, and a similar mindset is probably occuring regarding Turkey and other Islamic states as well, thus the targets were British.
#35
My condolences to both Murat and Bulldog. We all have differing opinions, but we also all agree that this attack was despicable. Regardless of whether the PKK or Al-Q did this we must stand united. Also don't brush off Murat's theory so readily. If the PKK did do this then they may be behind some attacks in Iraq as well. However, before making claims we need the evidence and patterns to fit together.
So for right now lets just concentrate on sorting through the information and not bicker with eachother, please?
Posted by: Charles ||
11/20/2003 11:31 Comments ||
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#36
Conspiracy theories are a device of authoritarian propaganda, since they depend crucially on the unsupported authority and aggressive assertions of the accuser.
It is far more likely that these explosions were timed to support the anti-Bush demonstrations in London, since the British fifth column media will automatically blame the US for them, and the bigoted masses of the conformist left will eat it up.
Remember, people, the fifth column media do not support the terrorists. It is the other way around: the terrorists support activist media and their blackshirt masses in the so-called "peace movement", providing a violent exclamation mark to their demands and claims.
It has been said that warfare is an extension of politics by other means. If so, terrorism is an extension of advertising by other means, since its objectives are achieved entirely by influencing opinion with the help of collaborationist propaganda.
#37
Murat: Please accept my sympathies for the families of the people killed in these explosions today and the explosions from the other day. While we will disagree about a lot of things, unfortunately, we now agree that terrorism in all its facits is an abscess that needs to be lanced.
Clinton's cruise missile strike on al'Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan?
Janet Reno's statements about Iraq and al'Qaeda working together?
And for the rest why should Al Queada target Turkey
Because you're not Islamic enough? Because Turkey is (supposedly) an American ally? Because Turks betrayed the ummah by dissolving the caliphate? Because Turkey actually recognizes Israel's right to exist, even cooperates with Israel?
Why did they attack a nightclub in Bali?
Why did they attack a tourist hotel in (I believe) Kenya?
Why did they attack an Arab housing compound in Riyadh?
You're full of crap, Murat, utterly full of it. I'm sorry for what's happened in Turkey recently, but your constant refusal to THINK makes me worry for the future of Turkey. If a supposedly educated person in Turkey is so easily swayed by his prejudices and bigotry, what does that say about the rest of the country?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
11/20/2003 12:27 Comments ||
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#39
Terrorists play no favorites. My condolences to all of those bereaved and injured.
Murat, the mural on the side of the HSBC building. An aiplane and something else. Symbolic? What was that about?
Posted by: john ||
11/20/2003 12:30 Comments ||
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#40
Murat, I have never heard of anyone determining who did a crime, finding family members, and making a DNA match in such a short time. Usually it takes weaks for the tests alone.
#42
What if Murat is right and it turns out to be the PKK? What if Turkey decides to pull an Afghanistan on the Kurds in northern Iraq? If the US says no to Turkey, expect to see Murat like we've never seen him yet. If the US allows Turkey to do it's thing in northern Iraq... expect a marriage between Al-Qaeda and the new found enemy of the US for the next 1000 years, the Kurds (betrayed a 2nd time). A one huge can of worms I tell ya.
Posted by: Rafael ||
11/20/2003 14:15 Comments ||
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#43
What if Murat is right and it turns out to be the PKK?
Then we'll have to fight the PKK while making sure the innocent Kurds are protected.
We DO NOT want to let the Turks have free reign with the Kurds.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
11/20/2003 14:34 Comments ||
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#44
Why would PKK attack British interest while Bush is there. Makes no since. Smells like French muslim/Iranian/AQ/Fundies. I'm surprized no Polish soft target yet.
#45
Airliner on the side of a building? Last time I saw that was 9/11.
Posted by: john ||
11/20/2003 15:29 Comments ||
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#46
Rafael, if Murat is correct I would expect the Turks to go to town on their own Kurds first rather than escallate with the US. Any unwelcome action by the Turks into Iraq would result in the Kurds becoming well armed with US equipment very quickly (something Turkey does not want).
#48
Re. the DNA testing - nowadays the reactions required to amplify the DNA and process it in order to generate a 'fingerprint' take no more than a few hours, so in theory DNA testing could be done on the same day. After attacks of this nature, however, finding samples which can be confidently identified as uncontaminated remains of the boomers themselves might well be difficult. I wouldn't hold my breath for results.
#49
LH -"Would an alliance between PKK nd AQ be impossible?" Of course it's impossible! The Pious AQ would never deign to work with the PKK! Just like AQ would never coordinate with Iraq; isn't that what the LLL has been saying for months now?
EFL & The Obvious
Seeking to avoid a rift with the United States, European nations discussed increasing censure of Iran over its past covert nuclear activities as they prepared for a key meeting of the U.N. atomic agency. Oooohh, censure! Ouch! That hurts. Good idea. We should have done this to Iraq.
The United States had hoped that the 35-nation board of short-bus governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency would find Tehran in noncompliance with the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty at its meeting, which opens Thursday. Wishful thinking.
IAEA head idiotMohamed ElBaradei also was unhappy with the lack of any stronger language in the European proposal, a diplomat familiar with his thinking said. Drawn up by France, Germany and one of Washingtonâs closest allies, Britain, the rough draft minimized nearly two decades of covert nuclear programs that the U.S. administration says point to an effort to develop nuclear weapons. Instead, it focused on positive steps taken by Iran over the past few weeks to deflect international suspicions, including suspending uranium enrichment and agreeing to inspections on demand by IAEA inspectors. Positive steps to deflect suspicions.
Now thatâs strong language. I think I can hear Iran dismantling the program as I type.
Posted by: Dragon Fly ||
11/20/2003 6:00:06 AM ||
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#1
Gutless wonders comes to mind.
Posted by: Douglas De Bono ||
11/20/2003 8:47 Comments ||
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#2
I thought that they were on super secret probation already?
Posted by: Fred ||
11/20/2003 11:19 Comments ||
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#4
Drawn up by France, Germany and one of Washingtonâs closest allies, Britain, the rough draft minimized nearly two decades of covert nuclear programs that the U.S. administration says point to an effort to develop nuclear weapons. Instead, it focused on positive steps taken by Iran over the past few weeks to deflect international suspicions, including suspending uranium enrichment and agreeing to inspections on demand by IAEA inspectors.
#8
France, Germany, and (sadly) the UK are cutting a deal with Iran because they know they are in MRBM range. The New Cold War has already begun. Time to deploy missile defense to the UK (the frogs and commie germans can pound sand).
A French man in his 30s has been taken into custody in connection with a French probe into the 2001 assassination of Afghan resistance leader Ahmad Shah Masood, Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy said on Wednesday. Sarkozy told parliamentary deputies that the man had been arrested on Monday, adding: âHe is currently in preventive custody. He is linked with those who assassinated commander Masood.â The minister did not say where the man was being held, but court sources said he was in custody at the Paris headquarters of Franceâs counter-intelligence service (DST). Court sources said the suspect may not be directly linked with Masoodâs assassins, but that he might have connections with a group that participated in terror training exercises in the Fontainebleau forest outside Paris.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:08 ||
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Sorry, can't remember if this 's been brought up before; Brigitte's investigation revealed that the serial number of the camera used to assassinate Masood indicated it was originally stolen to a Tv journalist by a Lyon streetgang. French connection, again (plus the belgian passports of the murderers).
the U.S. to participate in high-level Joint Defense Group meetings between Turkey and the U.S. in Williamsburg, near Washington, Second Chief of General Staff Gen. Ilker Basbug said yesterday the outlawed terrorist organization Kurdish Workers Party - Kurdistan Freedom and Democracy Congress (PKK-KADEK) would be on the agenda. Bilateral defense cooperation will also be discussed. Basbug is expected to meet with Deputy U.S. Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy U.S. State Secretary Richard Armitage, Assistant U.S. National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley and Deputy of the U.S. Chief of General Staff General Peter Pace, before leaving on Thursday.
Diplo note: We're giving Turkey the honored guest treatment here. Basbug's meeting with everybody who's anybody except Rice and Rumsfeld, and Rumsfeld's out of the country. Condi might be, too. The dance isn't over yet, and the music changed when Qaeda hit Istanbul. We've still got more mutual interests than we do sticking points.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:07 ||
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#5
Yes Turkey does need us more than we need them. But outside of the lunancy of Murat Turkey is a strong ally that is a little misguided. You can blame the EuroTrash for dangling EU membership then giving the Turks a little spanking. I do not believe that the EU will live up to its ideals, at least with the French wanting to dominate. The bombings in Istanbul will def have an affect on the military in Turkey who know who their allies are.
Posted by: Dan ||
11/20/2003 13:38 Comments ||
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Al Qaeda was announcing deadly threats month ago, before the suicide attacks on two Istanbul synagogues on Saturday. Yusuf Ayyeri, known to have been close to Osama Bin Laden, and sometimes described as Bin Laden's 'ghost-writer' because he frequently authored statements and other literature for a website thought to be linked to Al Qaeda, threatened Turkey in a book he wrote. Ayyeri was killed by Saudi police forces earlier this year but before this happened, Ayyeri wrote a book called "After the Fall of Baghdad; The Future of Iraq and the Arab Peninsula" published by the Islamic Study and Research Centre in Pakistan. Prominent Iranian writer Amir Taheri noted that the book's contents fit the pattern of Al Qaeda's theory of a holy war between democracy and Islam. Ayyeri argued in his book that democracy was a hybrid of Zionism and Christianity that was corrupting the Islamic world.
That's the "Democracy is a Jewish plot" argument again. Individual liberty is incompatible with complete submission to God, as represented on earth by his annointed holy men. Men are born to be ruled, rather than governed.
His thesis claimed that secular democracy, nationalism, communism, Baathism, and other political philosophies were the enemies of Islam. Generally speaking, Al Qaeda's goal is to replace the corrupt, U.S.-supported, unholy governments of Arab and Muslim lands with holy Islamic states.
Ruled by holy men, with turbans and automatic weapons. They know what's best for us all...
The Russian defeat in Afghanistan is the theoretical model and Iraq is now viewed as the main battleground in this conflict. It is for these reasons that Turkey was designated as a target in Al Qaeda's holy war. Turkey is viewed as a Muslim secular democracy and thus, a legitimate target for global jihad. Turkey was targeted because of its 'un-Islamic' government as much as destabilising the country would help in defeating the U.S. in Iraq. "The only Islamic country under the influence of democracy in a real sense is Turkey. For this reason, Turkey is under a deadly threat. Do we want what is happening in Turkey to happen in Islamic countries? Do we want Muslims to refuse joining Jihad and adapt secularism as a mixture of Zionism and Christianity? In the way that Afghanistan became a grave for communism, Iraq will be the grave of democracy," states Ayyeri's book.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:07 ||
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So not only did the double cross by Turkey on the 4ID not get them expedited review into the European Union, not only did it not get them financial aid from the French, not only did it not get them favorable terms on Cyprus --
-- it also didn't get them a free pass from al Qaeda.
Yep, them Turk politicans are shrewd.
Posted by: Steve White ||
11/20/2003 0:11 Comments ||
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#2
Are the Turkish people getting the message that Al-Queda hates them and their way of life too, yet?
Despite our differences in the last year, including here with Murat, I have continued to believe that the Turks are our friends and that we have mutual interests in stopping these jerks.
But it is interesting what one terrible attack can do to change a nation's attitude.
Pearl Harbor turned us from a nation opposed to war into the world's greatest military power.
9/11 awakened us from our sleep (most of us anyway) and showed us what today's enemy really is. Bali did it for Australia. Casablanca did it for Morocco. The same thing will happen in France or Germany when the attacks come there...as they surely will.
#4
Strange thing is..the day before the bombings I asked Murat what he thought on how Turkey would react if Al Quaeda had hit them? Weird on the foreseeing part eh?
Posted by: Val ||
11/20/2003 3:36 Comments ||
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#5
But it is interesting what one terrible attack can do to change a nation's attitude.
It is, isnât it thinking about that the Taliban was created by a joint funding of the US and Saudia Arabia to fight the Russian occupation, that later somehow backfired, see it like playing with firework and injuring oneself. And the Hamas that was created to cripple the PLO, fighting fire with fire that in the end also wend astray.
The Turkish people have never regarded the Al queada else than evil, however one should look beyond the tip of his nose, most of those âIslamicâ terror groups have been created and funded by Western powers in times when it suited them, although having a leading role Iran and Syria are not the only guilty ones.
Posted by: Murat ||
11/20/2003 6:10 Comments ||
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#6
Murat, you miss the point. RMcLeod was saying how an attack on a country can often galvanize them to actions and future consequences not seen before. I.E. - his Pear Harbor & 9/11 analogies.
Maybe these attacks will galvanize the Turks against the Muslim extremists in a never seen before fashion. I forsee the next year being a pivotal one for the Turkish people. BTW - my condolences to your people.
As for your other argument - We did support the mujahadeen against the Soviet's in the 80s. What's your point? That we should have known 25 years later they would twist into the Taleban and support Al Queda? Give me a break. I guess we should've supported the Soviets then in your view? Yeah, that would have been a lot better. Don't make me laugh. It was at the height of the cold war, what the hell did you think we were going to do?! We also supported Iraq against Iran. I guess we should've supported the Islam-o-nut Ayatollah instead. Whatever.
#7
Actually, the Taliban only popped up after the Soviets (and the US support) were gone, so Murat's point is, well, pointless. Some of the US-supported mujihadeen may have gone over to support them, but Afghanistan's like that.
Honestly, Murat, cash flowing from Muslim "charities" has much more to do with funding terrorism than any US government cash. But recognizing that would involve seeing the beam in your own eye, wouldn't it?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
11/20/2003 8:33 Comments ||
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#8
Here you go, Murat, this article was written for you. It's right here in black and white, the idiots guide to understanding AQ. It's pretty simple, and this article makes it clear enough for even YOU to understand.
They have drawn the line in the sand. You are either for secular democracy or you are for life under the mullahs and Sharia. If you choose the former, you are a legitimate target no matter how much you hate Americans and Jews.
Posted by: B ||
11/20/2003 10:17 Comments ||
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#9
Murat: It is, isnât it thinking about that the Taliban was created by a joint funding of the US and Saudia Arabia to fight the Russian occupation, that later somehow backfired, see it like playing with firework and injuring oneself.
The Taliban sprang up with Saudi, Pakistani and worldwide Muslim funding to overthrow the warring mujahideen who had convinced the Soviets that the cost of staying in Afghanistan was too high. The Taliban won because they were better-funded with Saudi and Muslim charitable funds than the other Afghan factions. The idea that we supported the Taliban is just another one of the anti-American myths that the left keeps on cranking out.
Even if we assume the truth of these baseless lies (namely that the Taliban did the bulk of the fighting against the Soviets, and we supported the Taliban against the Soviets), the truth is that alliances do change over time. We were aligned against Turkey during WWI and WWII, and with it after WWII, because of Turkey's cooperative attitude in the postwar era - despite its being a quasi-Axis country during WWII. We were aligned with Stalin during WWII and against him after WWII, because of Soviet imperial expansion. Japan, Italy and Germany were pre-war enemies and post-war allies, because all of these countries moved towards democracy and a non-belligerent attitude towards the US. The truth is that the US welcomes everyone's friendship - bin Laden had to attack the US to make al Qaeda America's enemy, and the Taliban had to shelter bin Laden to put themselves in our cross-hairs.
It should be noted that the mujahideen officially split with the West durring the Balkans War.
If you remember they showed up there in large numbers to fight for there Muslim brothers but there contempt for the West was easy to see. They judged us durring that war as thier true enemy after communism had truly died. It was also the last time they fought allied with the West agianst a communist state.
It should be noted that the mujahideen officially split with the West durring the Balkans War.
If you remember they showed up there in large numbers to fight for there Muslim brothers but there contempt for the West was easy to see. They judged us durring that war as thier true enemy after communism had truly died. It was also the last time they fought allied with the West agianst a communist state.
#12
I'm still waiting for Al Queda to try to get the Muslims in Europe to move to Spain and shift the demographic balance there, reversing the Andalusian tragedy and returning Spain to the Dar al-Islam.
Murat is distorting the facts or has been brainwashed. The Taliban didn't exist at the time of the Russian occupation. There was an ultra-Islamist party under the orders of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and this spent more time fighting more moderate resistance movements than fighting the Soviets. The US had delegated to the Pakistanese the task of distributing the aid and these sent most of it to Hekmatyar despite being the less effective of the resistance leaders. But the long-term goal of Pakistan is gain strategic depth against India by provoking the implosion of Afghanistan, that is why she fights those who have developped an Afghan patriotism and funds those who will increase religious (Hekmatyar and the Taliban both tried to force conversion of the Shia) and ethnic rivalries (both Hekamatyar and the Taliban were Pashtun supremacists)
#14
(both Hekamatyar and the Taliban were Pashtun supremacists)
So much for the incompatibility of Islamism & nationalism :-)
Mind you Hek is primarily a Hekmatyarist, nothing else. He was allegedly a loyal PDPA cadre when he was at Kabul's military academy, & despite his supposed antipathy to Commies he managed to patch up an alliance with Dostum pretty quickly after the fall of the Najibullah govt (that was after he'd condemed the new Mujahideen administration as 'unislamic' cos it included Tank Boy - oops!) I hope his Sunni Islamist credentials have been irreversably tarnished by his having to beg Khamene'i & Co for asylum after the Talibs chased him out of Afghanistan - I won't hold my breath though.
Posted by: Dave ||
11/20/2003 17:02 Comments ||
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#15
Odd...when I google the phrase "dar al-islam" the only hits I get come back to "septic tank". Dar al-Islam igual cisterno septico en Espana. What's up with that, ruprecht?
Posted by: Mark ||
11/20/2003 19:11 Comments ||
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#16
re: SEPTIC TANK
according to Instapundit...isn't today national toilet day?
Posted by: B ||
11/20/2003 21:12 Comments ||
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#17
JFM - Thanx for the clarification. I wasn't aware of how far those complexties ran. I'm surprised Murat doesn't either as he lives in the region.
Thousands of people have taken to the streets in London to protest against George W Bush and the war on Iraq.
Organisers claim more than 150,000 have joined the march in central London, although police put the figure closer to 30,000. Whom to believe police or the protestors?
Mr Bush has carried on with his engagements which have included talks with Prime Minister Tony Blair.
He and Mr Blair jointly condemned Thursdayâs bomb attacks in Turkey and reiterated their war on terror.
Foreign activists
Security in the capital has been stepped up for the presidential visit and in anticipation of Thursdayâs march, 5,123 police officers have been deployed.
There have already been 50 arrests since Tuesday night as part of the special security operation. The operations was called BOBBIES BONK BONEHEADS!
Deputy assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Andy Trotter said the attacks in Istanbul underlined that his officers were working for the protection of demonstrators as much as Mr Bush.
"As we have seen, terrorists really donât care who they blow up or who they target," he said.
"They would have no compunction to take out demonstrators, no compunction in any way at all. And thatâs a very difficult message to get across to some demonstrators."
Officers are prepared for major disruption to the city centre as the march heads towards Trafalgar Square, and some roads around the route have been closed.
They are particularly concerned that as many as 1,000 European anarchists have targeted the event for their own purpose. Anti-war and anarchists?
Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir John Stevens said they were "absolutely intent on not carrying out peaceful protests and mischief-making".
Schoolchildren
And Mr Trotter said police intelligence had already suggested strongly that there could be pockets of violence and disorder breaking out, especially after the rally breaks up this evening in Trafalgar Square.
Many schoolchildren were expected to leave their classrooms, particularly in London schools, and join the march.
Marchers started gathering from 1200 GMT, with the protest wending its way to Trafalgar Square via Whitehall and Parliament.
Organisers say the rally, which will culminate in the toppling of an 18ft effigy of Mr Bush, will be Britainâs largest weekday protest.
"This phenomenal response shows the depth of feeling of the British public towards this visit," said a Stop the War Coalition spokesman. Then his lips fell off.
In Scotland, the Scottish Parliament was suspended after a protester dressed in a George Bush mask shouted anti-war slogans from the public gallery during a debate on Iraq.
Mr Bush and Mr Blair held talks at Downing Street, following which they met representatives from several African countries to discuss action against HIV/ Aids.
They made a joint appearance earlier in the day to condemn the bomb attacks in Turkey and reiterate their commitment to the fight against terrorism.
The day is scheduled to be more low-key than the formal first day of the visit, which saw a 41-gun salute and lavish state banquet at Buckingham Palace.
Can we declare the ANSWER/STOP WAR marches a failure? 30K people after all this build up is a definite let down. Wonder how the LLL press is spinning this? Anybody over the pond hear anything about the protesters? The BBC link had a picture of what looked like models demonstrating? Just kidding I am sure they arenât hookers and just dress trashy to get a job in this socialists state. Wonder what the Red Mayor is saying? I need to know! Just kidding I am sure they will tell us tomorrow that there were 200k people and they stopped war all over the world.
#1
BBC had a picture of a couple of hotties protesting (drudge had the picture as well). My first thought was the BBC probably searched through thousands of photos to find the ones that put the protestors in a decent light.
#2
How IRONIC. Contrary to this 'report', al Qaida would never blow up those protesters, they're a PR goldmine. The result being, the protesters are actually PROTECTING Georgie by being there. Thanks for the help, boneheads !
#5
The MICHAEL JACKSON CRISIS is a Fascist Imperialist Plotâ¢, created by FoxNews and their ZOG masters to steal the headlines away from the rabid communists peace protesters.
#7
I just read an AP report saying that "at least 50,000 protestors" were marching in London, and that organizers expected the number to grow to 100,000.
Posted by: Tibor ||
11/20/2003 15:07 Comments ||
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#8
at least 50,000 protestors
Ok, so we've gone from upwards of 100,000 to 70,000 to "at least 50,000". Anyone else noticing a trend, here?
#10
Is it just me, or is everyone else having fun.
The BBC is like a crack addicted whore, selling her credibility on the cheap for any loser desperate enough to buy it.
The protesters reveal themselves as the biggest freak show to hit town since Barnum and Bailey.
What is that movie...Camille???
It's becoming so easy; I almost feel mean. In fact, I would feel mean, except that these are the enablers for the Castros Kim Jong's and Sadaams who rape children then run them through paper shredders. So I shrug and think..hey! What goes around, comes around.
I have to say that there is a certain satisfaction in seeing the NPR/BBC/Desperate-To-Be-Cool Crowd(TM) finding their rightful place among the freaks of the gutter.
Posted by: B ||
11/20/2003 16:58 Comments ||
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#11
> My first thought was the BBC probably searched through thousands of photos to find the ones that put the protestors in a decent light. <
They were probably were trying to attact some guys to the protest to get the numbers up.
Posted by: g wiz ||
11/20/2003 19:17 Comments ||
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#12
Organisers claim more than 150,000 have joined the march in central London, although police put the figure closer to 30,000.
One of the local news progs on the tube just said that the police estimated the crowd to be around 100K. Somebody is no doubt fudging numbers.
#13
well..in fact they are telling us today that it is 100,000 people. I'm still skeptical, since, as yet, I have not seen a single picture back this up. No footage, no photos, nothing but the BBC..which hahaha...need I say more?
I took the Metrorail to Downtown Miami about 8 P.M. tonight, to play a visit to our "friends" the anti-Capitalism protesters. Oh, you donât know what Iâm talking about? Miami is hosting negotiations this whole week for the proposed Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA), a proposal that would do what its name suggests; create a tariff-free area for almost the whole continent. (Iâm pretty sure Cuba wonât join.)
With the FTAA conference, of course, the blithering morons respectful protestors come. I got off Metrorail (Miamiâs overpass train), and I took the metromover (downtownâs mini-rail overpass service) to an station close to the meeting--the closest station was closed. The cops were everywhere, tense, but I donât think they were in danger today. I went to the concert/protest, and I was amazed... by how few people were there. I donât think there were a thousand people. Hell, I think half the people were there to watch exotic animals colorful people like I was. When I walked by there was the Guitar player from the extinct Rage Against the Machine playing by himself--apparently, Rage was a machine itself, it broke down, and there were no Marxist mechanics around. The "activists" themselves were pretty quiet, they havenât reached critical mass, but I did manage to run into a Marxist lady I know (from a philosophy class), and she looked at me with the most surprised eyes Iâve ever seen. She must be telling her friends about the spy she recognized today.
In the end, I didnât see anything spectacular, but it was nice to see the evil ones demoralized.
Posted by: Sorge ||
11/20/2003 12:11:49 AM ||
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#2
So far, seems the protests in the UK are a flop too. Looks like the "revolutionary" dreams of the looney left and their communist cohorts are falling apart.
#6
Based on my observations of the protest here Monday, and others:
1. Papermache - the media of choice for the educated protestor
2. Chicks with pink hair are required
3. Multiple messages, no point in all of us protesting the same thing
4. Must not march in unison nor in the same direction as anyone else. Conformity is bad.
5. Recruit homeless people to hold signs
6. Never forget the good old days of Vietnam
#7
What happens to papermache in the rain? Perhaps the puppet show is delayed because of the drizzle. Without puppets to watch a lot of the other protestors might just stay home. The Pink tank only has so much appeal without a supporting army of puppets.
Pakistani forces are swooping on suspected Taleban supporters near the southwest border with Afghanistan and have arrested more than 500 Afghan âillegal immigrants,â officials said on Thursday. âWe have since last week detained more than 500 Afghans staying illegally in Baluchistan and they are being deported,â Shoaib Suddle, police chief of the southwest province of Baluchistan, told AFP. The first 150 will be deported later on Thursday at the border town of Chaman, 100 kilometers west of the provincial capital Quetta. âIt is for the Afghan authorities to find out who is a Taleban among them but we suspect there may be many such elements in the lot,â Suddle said.
"And we're tired of having them around. We've got enough of our own loons."
The mass arrests mark the first large-scale effort by Pakistan to expel illegal Afghans from Baluchistan, and follows months of accusations that Taleban commanders and fighters are living freely in the province and orchestrating a guerrilla campaign inside Afghanistan from Pakistani soil.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 13:09 ||
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"And we're tired of having them around. We've got enough of our own loons."
And there ya have it.
Is 500 a major number for this sort of thing? Could it be that Pakistan is trying to take control of this part of its country?
#2
Is 500 a major number for this sort of thing?
Don't know, haven't seen the film yet. Run another recce flight over the area, and I'll let you know...
Seems I heard somewhere the noumber 75,000 batted around. Not sure if that's ALL Afghan refugees in Pakistan, or if that's just the Pushtuns in Baluchistan.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
11/20/2003 21:44 Comments ||
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The number of Afghan refugees in Pakistan exceed one million.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
11/20/2003 22:20 Comments ||
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A radical Hindu political party in Uttar Pradesh, Indiaâs most populous state, which is a key ally of the countryâs ruling party, is encouraging Hindus to have more children because of fears of a Muslim population explosion. Couples with more than 10 children would be given gifts of gold or silver. The call runs counter to the Indian governmentâs policy of controlling the countryâs burgeoning population by promoting family planning. The "awakening" that the Shiv Sena wants to bring about stems from the belief that Indiaâs Muslim population, already estimated to be about 140 million, will overtake the Hindu, even though Hindus account for 85% of Indiaâs population, now more than a billion. Demographic experts assert that high birth rates are related to illiteracy and poverty, and have nothing to do with religious beliefs.
On the other hand, religious beliefs can have a lot to do with illiteracy and poverty...
Radical Hindu leaders claim the percentage of Muslims has been rising. Their propaganda finds a response among Hindus who resent the Muslimsâ separate civil law permitting men four wives - though most Muslims are too poor to practise polygamy, and educated Muslims reject the idea. "Even Hindus who do not support parties like the Shiv Sena or the ruling Bharatiya Janata party [BJP] believe that most Muslims have four wives and lots of children," said Dipankar Gupta, a sociologist. The issue even figured in the Gujarat state assembly elections last year, with the BJPâs chief minister, Narendra Modi, mocking Muslim families for their "25 children each". Mr Tiwari said: "When the Muslims become 30% of the population democracy and peace will disappear from India. To maintain the social balance, and to save the nation, we are now asking Hindu couples to have a minimum of four children each."
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
11/20/2003 12:07:53 AM ||
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I'm not so sure that some Muslim countries, Pakistan at least, don't already have such a policy, albeit, it may be unwritten. Several years ago during a conversation with a Pak Air Force Officer he ridiculed the US for it's low birth rate. Implying that Pakistan encourages high birth rates. I didn't learn why.
#7
Eventually, there will come a response from nature to curb this - disease and plagues are especially likely in such crowded unsanitary conditions. We should make clear that their choices are not our consequences, sorry
Posted by: Frank G ||
11/20/2003 13:28 Comments ||
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We should make clear that their choices are not our consequences, sorry
Unfortunately, it's usually the NGO's of the West that end up rushing in to save these idiots from their stupidity.
Terming the Jihad Fund collection campaign of the Jamaat-e-Islami extortion, the members of the National Assembly belonging to the Muttahida Qaumi Movement have appealed to the President, Gen Pervez Musharraf, and Prime Minister Zafarullah Jamali, to stop this extortion. The MNAs stated that the JI workers were also forcibly stopping vehicles and threatening the occupants to contribute to the Jihad Fund otherwise, "Jihad would also be launched against them".
Yeah. That sounds pretty much like extortion...
The legislators further said the JI chief specially came from the NFWP for the collection of money while the cities, towns, and UC Nazims were also threatening the citizens that they would be arrested if they did not contribute to the Fund. These Nazims, the MNAs alleged, were also threatening contractors with cancellation of contracts in case they did not comply. They said the Muttahida received complaints from citizens, traders and contractors about the extortion by the JI and the party was left with no other option but to appeal to the president and premeir to intervene and stop the JI campaign.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
11/20/2003 12:03:33 AM ||
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Monty Python on The Piranha Brothers
"Denied the opportunity to use their talents in the service of their country, they began to operate what they called 'The Operation'. They would select a victim and then threaten to beat him up if he paid the so-called protection money. Four months later they started another operation which the called 'The Other Operation'. In this racket they selected another victim and threatened not to beat him up if he didn't pay them. One month later they hit upon 'The Other Other Operation'. In this the victim was threatened that if he didn't pay them, they would beat him up. This for the Piranha brothers was the turning point."
Posted by: A Jackson ||
11/20/2003 21:15 Comments ||
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Pakistan is demanding cash from almost 600 Islamists in a new attempt to prevent banned groups from re-emerging under new names.
Huh?
The bonds are an alternative approach to mass arrests, which Pakistan used last year in an unsuccessful crackdown on armed groups. "They are being asked to give surety bonds of good behaviour. If they violate them we will arrest them and their surety will be forfeited," a senior police intelligence official said.
Ummm... Yeah... That oughta work... I guess...
Nearly 600 activists of armed groups outlawed on Saturday have been ordered to pay security bonds of up to 100,000 rupees ($1,725), he said. "This strategy is different to previous attempts when large-scale arrests were made because most of those people were subsequently released by courts," he added.
Which kinda says something about the courts, doesn't it?
Four of the five groups outlawed by President Pervez Musharraf in January 2002 under his high-profile anti-Islamist crackdown re-emerged under new names. Most of their 2000 followers and leaders were released after several months in jail. Three of the groups were banned again on Saturday and a fourth was placed under surveillance under a new anti-Islamist drive. Authorities have since shut down 137 offices of the banned groups and arrested one of their leaders, although his arrest was related to the murder of a hardline Sunni leader in early October.
Can you have an entire country's head examined?
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:07 ||
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#2
This idea is right along with Maryland. MD is going to pay parolees $25/month to stay out of trouble -- no kidding! So, I guess that means MD and PK are not too far distant in their thinking. Sorry Fred, but I live here too and am ashamed.
#3
I don't know how much money $1,725 is to a Pakastani, but if it's lots of money, then I think I like this. Especially if it is more than they get paid by the Islamists to "see it their way".
Posted by: B ||
11/20/2003 17:05 Comments ||
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North West Frontier Province (NWFP) Health Minister Inayatullah has urged Pakistani Americans to preach Islam and offer a good impression of Pakistan, said an official statement. Speaking at an Iftar dinner hosted in his honour on Wednesday Mr Inayatullah lauded Pakistani Americans and said their home country was proud of their contributions and hard work. He asked them to make their stay in the US fruitful and to teach Islam.
Yeah, buddy! That's one hell of an idea. First, y'see, you leave Pakland to come to the U.S.A., where not only can you make a nice living without being in thrall to your hereditary landlord, but you probably won't be bumped off over fine points of theology or what great-great-grampaw did to some other fellow's great-great-grampaw. Then, when you're all settled down and you've got a regular income and the respect of your neighbors, you try and convert them to Islam, so your new country can become just like your old country.
Tell you what. Why don't Paks in the U.S. stick to running their 7-11's, Shell stations, and pediatric practices and bask in the knowledge that people respect them for what they do, not for their piety or for how many people grampaw killed? I've got a lot more respect for the Paks that I've met in this country than I do for the folks they left behind in the NWFP.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:07 ||
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#1
And Americans should preach Christianity everywhere they go. Oh, wait - that would get them KILLED in a lot of Muslim countries, unlike what happens to Muslims who push their religion here. Yeah, like I'm going to take up the Religion of Pieces.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
11/20/2003 0:08 Comments ||
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#2
...or what great-great-grampaw did to some other fellow's great-great-grampaw.
Found a typo, Fred. It should have read --
... or what great-great-grampaw did to some other fellow's daughter.
Posted by: Steve White ||
11/20/2003 0:13 Comments ||
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#3
Last time I took a cab, a Pakistani gave me an ICNA pamphlet on Islam. They are here; they are conducting dawah (invitation to the cult).
#4
There are different forms of islam you know, just as with any religion, i am sure you know many muslims who aren't gun toting fundamentalist maniacs. You seem to be missing the point that the whole reason your country is better than Pakistan is because you allow people to express their views on religion and anything else they like. p.s. nice stereotyping i am sure they appreciate the nice american treating them like servants and idiots in what is clearly an "equal opportunities" country.
And Barbara, that is why your country is better cause you don't kill muslims who preach and convert, be proud of that
#5
Yes, "Bananas", there are different forms of Islam. Unfortunately, 90% of them preach jihad and dhimmitude.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
11/20/2003 8:38 Comments ||
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#6
Joey, she's pointing out the Islamic double standard in their countries. We are proud here that everyone has the right to practice their religions as they choose and to speak their minds. However, she has the right to be offended when someone tries to push their religious ideology on her.
I.E. - it's not just Muslims, I use to have the Jehova's show up at my doorstep every week even though I told them repeatedly I was a Catholic & not interested in their religion. One time in a Seattle Airport after being over seas for more then 6 months, an unfortunate Hare Krishna almost 'got dealt with' by a fire team of us Marines when he started spewing dogma about us being 'cow killers' or some nonsense as we were enjoying our first burgers and beer back in the states at the airport pub. So no, we are not ignorant of the different Muslim sects. The structure of our open society would make the thought of a gun toting fundamentalist muslim maniac absurd.
As far as the stereo typing, the point is we respect them for their industrious nature & work ethic - but we don't want to be 'enlightened' by their religious dogma. They can save that shit for their fellow Paks here or the other Muslims. BTW - I know this is not p.c. but in some cases there are reasons why stereotypes exist. People often exacerbate their own stereotype, if you put on the perception over & over again, it often becomes reality.
#7
JoeyBananas, since the majority of Islamists looking for converts these days come from the violent Wahhabi branch of Sunni Islam and not the somewhat passive Sufi branch Americans who are paying attention have a right to be wary.
One can be proud of freedom of religion and still be wary of the motivations of anyone in the NorthWest Territory of Pakistan (where Bin Laden is assumed to be hiding).
A day after Indian paramilitary forces began a gradual withdrawal from counter-insurgency operations in Indian-administered Kashmir, Islamic fighters attacked a hotel in the summer capital Srinagar. The hotel was being used by the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) which is replacing the paramilitary Border Security Force (BSF). The fighters hurled bombs and fired automatic rifles at the Scindia Hotel in the Indira Nagar residential area in the high security Badamibagh Cantonment, on Tuesday. The fighters quickly forced their entry into an adjacent building after killing a CRPF personnel and wounding three others, police said. A few civilians were also injured in the shootout.
But they're not important...
Soon troops from the cantonment arrived and sealed the area. The CRPF and the army launched a joint operation. As the fighting continued through Wednesday, the holed up fighters hurled a grenade from the second floor of the building, resulting in injuries to three army personnel, including a commanding officer and his deputy. As the firing continued, security forces tried to rescue the officials and other staff at the building housing a telephone exchange. A senior security force officer said, "We want to evacuate the employees of the exchange before launching the final assault."
I doubt that would be on the gunnies' agenda, though...
The al-Mansoorian group claimed responsibility for the attack.
They're so proud...
The phasing out of the paramilitary BSF involving eight battalions (about 8000 men) is being projected by Chief Minister Mufti Muhammad Sayyid as an indication of improvement in the ground situation in Kashmir. However, Muslim separatists have ridiculed the assertion insisting it will not change the life of an average Kashmiri. âWe see it only as the replacement of one occupation force by another,â said pro-independence Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) leader Javed Ahmed Mir. K Srinivasan, a deputy inspector general of the BSF said, âBy the end of this month the process (pullout) will be complete.â
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:07 ||
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It's over: Indian troops ended one of the longest sieges in Kashmir's main city by blowing up a building on Thursday where gunmen had been holed up. At least four people were killed in the three-day siege in Srinagar, including an army major and a suspected rebel. A defense spokesman said troops pounded the building, near an army headquarters, with mortars and set off bombs to flatten it. The spokesman said soldiers would search the debris on Friday for bodies of the gunmen. It was not known how many gunmen had been in the building.
They'll be counting fingers and toes to get a final figure, could take a while.
Posted by: Steve ||
11/20/2003 11:30 Comments ||
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Looks like the big pink tank from yesterdayâs âprotestâ in London is not having its intended effect!
A new poll shows support for the war in Iraq has slightly risen in the past two weeks, with 56 percent of Americans now saying the situation there was worth going to war over. Fifty-four percent of Americans said that at the beginning of the month.
Similarly, the Gallup poll shows a majority of Americans say the decision to go to war was the right thing to do, compared with 31 percent who disagree. Seventeen percent say itâs too soon to tell. âToo soon to tellâ if protecting 26 million people from a wood chipper was worth it?
Whatâs more, 48 percent of Americans now say the war in Iraq has made the U.S. safer from terrorism, up from 45 percent last month. Do the other 55% have heads-up-ass-syndrome? Quick! Is here a doctor in the house.
No, not the 101st soldiers who finished the job, but the brave Iraqis who almost did it right the first time in 1996. Edited for brevity.
As Salman Sharif gave the order to open fire, he was certain he was going to die himself. You did not try to assassinate Uday Hussein, the former Iraqi presidentâs elder son and heir-apparent, at point blank range and expect to get away with it. "We knew we had a 1 percent chance of returning alive," Mr. Sharif says today, sitting crosslegged on a carpet-strewn floor as, for the first time, he recounts to a foreign newspaper the daring attack he led. "Strict security made this kind of operation almost impossible." But after months of careful planning, the four man hit squad drawn from a shadowy resistance group was determined to go ahead. As Uday Hussein drove his golden Porsche slowly up a busy street in one of Baghdadâs smartest districts, just after dark on Dec. 12 1996, two gunmen responded to Sharifâs command with a hail of bullets from their AK-47 rifles. "We were sure we had killed him," Sharif recalls. "We fired 50 rounds into that car." In fact, he discovered later, Uday had been hit 17 times but survived. He was crippled for the rest of his life, and - according to popular belief - rendered impotent (a special kind of justice, Sharif said, because of the elder Hussein sonâs reputation for brutal womanizing), but he lived. Still, the unprecedented assassination attempt on a member of the ruling Baath Partyâs inner circle sent an important message. "We showed that the Islamic resistance could reach any target at any time," Sharif says. "And we refuted before the whole world the regimeâs claim that there was no resistance inside Iraq." Click the link to read about the motivation, the plotting, the ambush, the escape, and the retribution.
Posted by: Dar ||
11/20/2003 4:32:40 PM ||
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"The man who shot Uday Hussein.....he was the bravest of them all.....
(Apologies to Burt Bacharach, Hal Davis, and Gene Pitney)
#4
the AK47 uses a high speed 30 cal bullet and I don't believe you can survive 17 bullets of it. Something is wrong here: either he wasn't hit 17 times or Uday was wearing body armor.
#5
IIRC AK fires a medium-velocity bullet that does minimal tissue disruption (at least in FMJ configuration); I remember reading some Fackler's articles about terminal effects of military rifles - the AK made the "cleanest" wound channels -, plus a review of a school spree-shooting, with AK lethality evaluated at 14% on small children (which corresponded to Viet Nam war datas). So, I guess it is possible to be hit 17 times (extremities?) and to survive.
Thanks to Chuck for the tip!
Soldiers from the 3rd Armored Calvary Regiment received small arms fire from a truck this morning. The soldiers were investigating a site where a Bradley struck a landmine yesterday. The soldiers returned fire killing two of the enemy attackers. A third insurgent ran from the vehicle and was later detained.
"Set the dogs on 'im, Kowalski!"
"Go get 'im, Fang!"
"I give up!"
In a separate incident last night, three Iraqis were killed and two were wounded while soldiers maintained traffic checkpoints in Ramadi. The checkpoints had been established and the road cordoned because an Explosive Ordnance Disposal team was investigating a possible improvised explosive device (IED) or roadside bomb. At one checkpoint east of Ar Ramadi, a vehicle approached at a high rate of speed and failed to slow or stop after flashlight signals and warning shots were fired. Soldiers, then, engaged the vehicle killing the driver and wounding the passenger. Despite the soldiers efforts, the vehicle crashed into a Humvee injuring three soldiers. The three U.S. soldiers wounded in the incident were treated by their unit medics and were returned to duty.
Hmmm... Not even a dozen virgins for this guy...
At another traffic checkpoint less than 200 meters away, there was a potential car bomb Vehicle Borne IED that attempted to overrun the checkpoint while disregarding similar warning signals from soldiers. The engagement resulted in two enemy personnel being killed and another wounded. The two wounded in the incident were evacuated to the 28th Combat Support Hospital in Baghdad for further treatment.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 15:13 ||
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#1
over at http://slate.msn.com/id/2091390/
fred Kaplan is saying that Ramadi is currently the single most important combat zone in Iraq (Kaplan believes ordinary Iraqis are a significant source of terrorists but doesn't say that any of these people are doing terrorism for money).
Thanks to Chuck for the tip!
Soldiers from 1st Battalion 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment captured an anti-coalition cell leader and six others in a cordon and search yesterday in Fallujah. Ma BarqerKurdia Turkey Ali and her six sons were operating an independent anti-coalition cell. The group is responsible for planning attacks and disrupting coalition activities. They are also suspected of coordinating an attack against a civilian convoy near Fallujah that killed two government contractors. The seven individuals are currently being held for further questioning. Kurdia Ali, the female, is being guarded by female military police.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 15:06 ||
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Feeling especially peckish, I titled my link "Mommy Dearest".
#3
I just read that the 101st arrested 161 suspected insurgents in raids today. I also read that we killed 10 guerilla fighters in other attacks. Nice progress.
Posted by: Tibor ||
11/20/2003 15:17 Comments ||
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I just read that the 101st arrested 161 suspected insurgents
Tibor, please say "captured" instead of "arrested." We are at WAR. Police arrest criminals; soldiers capture enemy fighters (not "insurgents").
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
11/20/2003 16:40 Comments ||
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#6
Barbara, point taken. Thanks.
Posted by: Tibor ||
11/20/2003 18:06 Comments ||
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#7
Delighted with this post. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Kurdia T. Ali nothing more than a Trifling Ho' ? I certainly think so. Good work gentlemen.
Posted by: Mark ||
11/20/2003 18:48 Comments ||
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A suicide bomb attack in the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk has killed three people and injured at least six. The target was an office of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan party, whose leader Jalal Talabani heads the US-appointed Iraqi Governing Council. Witnesses said a car bomb set off a huge explosion that sent a cloud of black smoke into the air. Ansar? Itâs their area of operation.
The attack happened hours after a car bomb exploded near a pro-US leaderâs home in the central city of Ramadi. The blast occurred outside the house of Sheikh Amer Ali Suleiman - a leader of the Duleim tribe, one of the main Sunni tribes in Iraq. The sheikh was not injured, but one report says at least one child was killed. Bastards.
Sheikh Suleiman has been advocating co-operation with the United States-backed coalition in Iraq. Thatâs why he was a target.
Posted by: Steve ||
11/20/2003 9:27:23 AM ||
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Considering the previous rantburg article tody about Talibani and Tapyip cooperation, this adds to my wonderment if AQ is terrified of the inevitable Turkish/Iraq cooperation. Two powerful secular democracies right in the heart of the middle east would shine a harsh light on the difference between life under a democracy v/s Sharia. I think we can see AQ go epileptic to prevent this from happening.
The US occupation forces have continued to pursue resistance fighters in Iraq as part of "Iron Hammer" and "Ivy Cyclone Two" operations. US Navy fighter jets flew sorties over northern Iraq from an aircraft carrier in the Gulf on Wednesday as American forces pounded suspected armed fighters hideouts with heavy weapons. US military spokesmen said the latest offensive formed part of operations Iron Hammer and Ivy Cyclone Two — campaigns launched in the past 10 days to combat the growing number of resistance attacks which have killed 179 US soldiers in just over six months. Jets from the USS Enterprise aircraft carrier dropped 1000 lb bombs on targets near the northern town of Kirkuk, the US military said. Other fighter planes dropped 2000 lb bombs around Baquba, a restive town about 65km north of Baghdad. In Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit, the 4th Infantry Division pounded targets with mortars, tanks and Hellfire missiles. In Baghdad, the 1st Armored Division continued its campaign of evening attacks on areas believed to be used by fighters. Explosions echoed across the capital after darkness fell. Aljazeera's correspondent in Basra said that a huge explosion rocked al-Ashaar district on Wednesday evening but no casualties were reported. The incident which was caused by an explosive device, targeted the Organisation of Islamic al-Taliyaa. Also, a British soldier was wounded when his military convoy came under attack in Basra. Following the incident, British forces closed all the roads leading to the attack scene.
Good. Keep the gloves off. Only whacking them for a couple days won't cut it — keep going until they holler.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:07 ||
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My take on "Operation Iron Hammer" is that it will deter the mercenaries - like those who shoot at Americans for $500 in Saddam money - by raising the risk factor. And the best way to keep military operations out of your Iraq neighborhood, is to inform to the CPA. Informants might even make more than $500.
#3
'"Everything is about hearts and minds," he says, as the engines and rotors of his helicopter roar deafeningly overhead.
"Not just tonight's activities, but everything that we do is hearts and minds.
"Even when you're taking down bad guys you've got to do it in a way that does not create more bad guys than you're taking off the street.
"There's actually a sign in our command post," he adds, "that says 'We're in a race to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. What have you done today?" ' Major Gen. David Petraeus, via BBC.
#4
No, RMCLEod, I haven't noticed because the news media has not mentioned it that I can tell. So I guess that gives even more evidence about what matters to the media. Thank God for Blogs!
#5
I think Anonon has identified a key piece of the strategy.
An easy $100 for planting a bomb with no consequences is one thing, but if there is more than a slight chance that the guys who do so will get killed/hurt/captured, then no amount of money will be enough for most of these guys...
Posted by: Carl in N.H. ||
11/20/2003 10:37 Comments ||
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#6
One thing I'm curious about - why are suspected armed fighters hideouts being assaulted? Can't anyone confirm that these places being pulverized are indeed guerilla hideouts? Because if they aren't, a lot of money is being wasted just to put on a show.
#8
There is an important difference between the 'hearts and mind' rules of engagement in Tikrit, Basra, Bagdad and Mosul.
MG Petraeus is in Mosul.
The two aggressive operations are in the Sunni triangle.
The night attacks are more effective at this time of the year than in the summer because the infrared vision works much better in cooler weather.
#9
if they aren't, a lot of money is being wasted just to put on a show.
Wonder how effective an Arclight strike was in actually killing enemy soldiers. My take is, not much. But if you've ever been within 25 miles of one of those awesome man-made tornados, you know just how much the mind part is affected - deep, deep down.
The explosion of 109,000 pounds of TNT in an area a half-mile wide, three miles long, over two minutes, is absolutely pee-in-your-pants terrifying, even when you know you're safe. Being on the receiving end, or even nearby, would be orders of magnitude worse - especially since most of the time it comes totally without warning.
You don't have to make 'em love you to keep 'em from killing you. They can also be too scared to step out of the shadows long enough to take a shot. Either way, our guys win.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
11/20/2003 23:40 Comments ||
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The current head of Iraq's temporary Governing Council, Jalal Talebani, has arrived in Ankara earlier today. State Minister Kursad Tuzmen received Talebani at the Foreign Trade Undersecretariat. Tuzmen noted that the aim of the government was to improve the relations in trade and politics between Turkey and Iraq. He said that this would be beneficial for both countries, the region, and the world. Talebani emphasized that Turkey was a country with a long historical connection to Iraq. "I believe that the two countries have common interests. Iraq is a rich country in terms of population and natural resources. In terms of cooperation, the spectrum is wide. After the regime is established through democracy, money once spent for arms will be used for our country's prosperity.
And there was one hell of a lot of money spent on arms...
"In this capacity, Turkey would help us. We are hopeful for this visit. Important persons are in our delegation. We hope that relations between Turkey and Iraq will improve. We came to lay the foundation of this policy," stated Talebani.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:07 ||
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#1
One natural resource that is going unmentioned is water. When the dust settles in the Middle East, water will still be a crucial and limited resource.
A stable, democratic and pluralistic Turkey and a stable, democratic and pluralistic Iraq together could form a critical mass in that region of the world. Hope it happens that way.
#2
This is great news. IMHO, Tapyip really just wants the contracts and money, and he'll be happy to go for this. I read that back in 95, Tapyip was trying to open trade with Iraq, and the statement, "Turkey was a country with a long historical connection to Iraq. "I believe that the two countries have common interests. Iraq is a rich country in terms of population and natural resources." could have come straight from his mouth. He was willing to work with Sadaam so why not the new Iraqi's?
#3
I wonder if this is cooperation is the reason for the recent AQ attacks in Turkey. This has to terrify those who wish to see Iraq and secular democracy fail in the ME.
US officials confirmed they had destroyed the Tikrit home of Izzat Ibrahim, Saddam's top lieutenant, who is accused of being directly behind some attacks on US troops. It was not clear if Ibrahim or anyone else was in the building when it was demolished by satellite-guided missiles.
Not that we care...
A spokesman for the US-led administration in Iraq announced a $10 million bounty for information leading to the capture or killing of Ibrahim. "This week we will be launching a public information campaign across Iraq to promote the $10 million reward for information leading to his capture or killing," spokesman Dan Senor said.
Makes it worthwhile to pick through the rubble, just on the off chance, doesn't it?
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:07 ||
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If they find Izzie's pinkie finger in the rubble, will the $10M go to Texas Instruments engineers? Works for me.
(FoxNews Political Grapevine...About halfway down the page...)
American and British Journalists in London have infiltrated the groups preparing to protest against the President there.
They report that the London Action Resource Center
-- describing itself as non-violent -- has taught demonstrators how to charge police lines and has discussed whether or not the hurling of petrol bombs constitutes an act of violence. These people must have an interesting definition of non-violence
Another group, called Bare Your Bum at Bush, is calling for a -- "mass moon." A group handout, quoted in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette, says "Done as a lone act of defiance, [mooning] can bring a great deal of satisfaction. When done with a group of friends, it enhances the power of your statement and creates a bond you will share forever." No comment....
#1
People who advocate charging police lines and promoting hurling of petrol bombs should be able to be arrested under the Terrorism Act. Bulldog, do you know enough details of the act to comment?
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
11/20/2003 19:49 Comments ||
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has taught demonstrators how to charge police lines and has discussed whether or not the hurling of petrol bombs constitutes an act of violence.
Time for some head thumping. Eight Tylenol tablets strong. Maybe a Fisk head wrap to boot.
#3
"Done as a lone act of defiance, [mooning] can bring a great deal of satisfaction. When done with a group of friends, it enhances the power of your statement and creates a bond you will share forever."
Oh, yes, yes. In the tradition of Ghandi, King, etc., these folks are certainly worthy of being taken seriously. I, for one, can hardly wait for the position paper...
Fights on:
Police officers in riot gear fired rubber bullets and used long batons, plastic shield, concussion grenades and stun guns in clashes Thursday with hundreds of demonstrators opposed to ongoing talks aimed at creating a hemisphere-wide free trade zone. The clashes came before and after a peaceful march organized by the nationâs labor unions, which are also opposed to the proposed Free Trade Area of the Americas. An estimated 8,000 to 10,000 marchers took part, saying the 34-nation FTAA would take thousands of jobs to other countries, reduce workersâ rights by exploiting cheap labor and drain natural resources.
Soon after the march ended, several dozen protesters resumed battling with police, pushing up against police lines and throwing water bottles at officers. The demonstrators had tear gas and rubber bullets fired at them by officers after they set small trash fires in the street. Miami cops were ready for them, let them have it after they started the fires and started throwing large ball bearings. Fox even cut away from the Jackson perp walk.
Posted by: Steve ||
11/20/2003 4:48:52 PM ||
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Finally a police force that knows how to deal with these idiots! Whack away, whack away, whack away all! After a couple of crack to the noggin they will back off.
#5
About half the Miami police officers are Cuban-Americans
That really makes me think that there isn't going to be much patience for the radical leftists and anarchists that want to trash Miami. The FTAA showed some humor picking that place for their meeting. As opposed to, say, the People's Republic of Seattle.
#8
let them have it after they started the fires and started throwing large ball bearings.
When I read this, I suddenly had this flashback to the ping-pong ball guns one of my neighbors had. Can you imagine something like that with a canister of compressed air, pumping out half-inch steel ball bearings? Can you imagine some ditzy young protestor getting hit in the teeth (or lower - much, much lower) with something like that? How long do you think that protest would last?
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
11/20/2003 21:04 Comments ||
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Some members of al Qaeda most likely possess portable surface-to-air missiles and may use them to target military transport planes, a U.N. report says. No shit Sherlocks.
The threat was among several findings detailed in the report by the United Nationsâ al Qaeda and Taliban Sanctions Committee which also cited a shifting of the terror networkâs strategy, a move towards "softer" targets and a warning the group was working towards a biological or chemical attack. In regards to the missile threat, al Qaeda may now move away from targeting commercial air transport because of heightened security at facilities, said Heraldo Munoz, the Chilean ambassador to the U.N. and head of the sanctions committee. Airliners are still unprotected against SAMs, mind you.
The terror network may try to target sea routes, "ports, sea ports" and may be "looking for targets of opportunity," Munoz said. "The panel of experts that work with our committee have insinuated that the possession of the surface-to-air missiles, these portable shoulder missiles, is a very clear danger," Munoz added. The report, which has not yet been made public, was compiled by a five-member expert panel from the committee charged with monitoring the implementation of sanctions against people and groups linked to al Qaeda or the former Taliban regime in Afghanistan. "monitoring the implementation of sanctions" how UN-ish.
The report also identifies Iraq as "fertile ground" for al Qaeda, which receives the "funds it needs from charities, deep pocket donors, and business and criminal activities, including the drug trade." Munoz said the panel also believes itâs "just a matter of time" before al Qaeda attempts a biological or chemical terrorist attack. "The only restraint they are facing is the technical complexity to operate them properly and effectively," he said. Yeah, you wouldnât want to wipe out yourself with smallpox during the testing phase. After all, that stuff is meant for infidels.
"All I can say at this point is that al Qaeda and some of the associates have tried to get hold of chemical and biological weapons." However, the killings and detentions of several members of al Qaeda has damaged the terror network, Munoz said. "They donât have today the capacity to attack the World [Trade Center] towers as they did on the 11th of September, 2001," he said. "That capacity they donât have, that has been destroyed." Especially considering the WTC towers are not there anymore.
"But they do have the capacity to hit a synagogue in Istanbul, or to hit a hotel in Bali, or in Jakarta, as we have seen." Or an HSBC branch, an embassy...
The report also predicted al Qaeda would continue to function in a decentralized manner, "with 30 or 40 organizations throughout the world and they will be focusing on what they call soft targets, not the hard targets," Munoz said. This is the second report by the panel, which was put into place at the beginning of the year to monitor the implementation of sanctions against individuals and entities linked to al Qaeda and the Taliban. The report, which will be publicly released in early December, also indicated thereâs a belief that terrorist groups are developing explosive devices designed to evade scanning machines. The report concludes that much tougher measures are needed to oblige "states to take the mandated measures" against known individuals and entities of al Qaeda and the Taliban and their associates. How...UN-ish. Thank you. (As usual waaaay behind Rantburg).
Posted by: Rafael ||
11/20/2003 4:21:18 PM ||
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"The only restraint they are facing is the technical complexity to operate them properly and effectively," he said.
#2
People forget that al Qaeda already launched a chemical attack in the US -- the original WTC bombing. The van with the bomb also had a big pile of sodium cyanide in it, in the hope that anyone not killed in the explosion or collapse of the tower(s) would be poisoned. Fortunately, the explosion vaporized the cyanide.
Posted by: Tibor ||
11/20/2003 18:15 Comments ||
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Gotta hand it to the UN-ocrats: they have a pretty bleedin' firm grasp of the obvious....
Posted by: Carl in NH ||
11/20/2003 21:58 Comments ||
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Carl - only after it's been explained to them three or four times by a serious clue-bat, and then it will only remain in their memory storage unit until they have two consecutive nights' sleep. "Grasp of the obvious" and "United Nations personnel" are not synonymous.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
11/20/2003 22:05 Comments ||
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Prime Minister Tony Blair and President George W Bush today reaffirmed their resolve to complete the process of bringing freedom, security and peace to Iraq in a joint declaration.
Attempts to Build Worldâs Largest LASIC Treatment Facility
In a confidential report Monday, the International Atomic Energy Agency says Iranâs atomic executives have acknowledged that they fired up a pilot laser-enrichment plant late last year and improved the countryâs vision enough to now read in the dark enriched tiny amounts of uranium to low levels.
Oh that? Thatâs just Dr. Khameneiâs new gadget. Call 555-2020 for more information. Never mind all the glowing.
#1
It's for the orphans and widows! How can the evil U.S. infidels be against anything that's used for helping build hydrogen bombs orphans and widows?
November 20, 2003 -- NYPD cops will get direct access to the vast Interpol databank to determine instantly whether a suspect is a terrorist or a fugitive wanted for a crime anywhere in the world.
As part of the first pilot program in the United States, the cityâs 36,000 cops will no longer have to worry that a person they "just released was a suspected terrorist," Ronald Noble, Interpolâs general secretary, said yesterday at an anti-terrorism conference at Police Headquarters.
With the click of a mouse, the NYPD Intelligence Division will be able to retrieve complete dossiers, fingerprints, mug shots, passports and other relevant data over super-secure, encrypted phone lines linked to Interpol headquarters in Lyon, France.
Presently, cops questioning suspicious individuals must reach out to Interpol representatives in Washington - and even then, receive notification only that the suspects are wanted, but with few details.
In a related development, Noble said his databank now includes the names of people identified as members of terrorist organizations, even if they have not committed a crime.
#2
As a NYer, this is good to see. In the WoT, NYPD is a junior partner to the Federal law enforcement agencies, which is quite remarkable for a "local" police department. I even recall reading that NYPD officers on the FBI anti-terrorist task force were involved in some of the raids in Pakistan going after al Qaeda suspects. Too bad we can't send Andy Sipowicz over there to kick some ass.
Posted by: Tibor ||
11/20/2003 15:13 Comments ||
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"I think the ordinary cop is far too busy."
True, yes. Cops aren't going to carry around Blackberries and do INTERPOL searches while walking a beat.
BUT. This means that anyone they bring in, for any reason, can be checked out immediately. Which is nice considering you can't hold someone for more than a day without charging them.
By BARRY RUBIN
At last Ahmed Qurei (Abu Ala) has formed a Palestinian government... There are three developments in Palestinian politics which have been largely ignored.
First, Qurei is a genuine moderate, if a rather weak-willed one. From its inception in 1996, he headed the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC). One might hope that the PLC would be a force for moderation and democracy. But what about Qurei's successor? When it was decided that Prime Minister Qurei must resign as PLC chair, he was replaced by Rafik al-Natsha, also known as Abu Shaker. I have not seen a single analysis of this fact, but it is really pretty horrifying. Natsha is the former PLO ambassador to Saudi Arabia and a former member of the Fatah Central Committee, as well as, of course, a PLC member. In 1988, he became an outspoken opponent of the Palestine National Council resolution which hinted (albeit cynically and obliquely) that the PLO might not keep trying to destroy Israel. So virulent was his opposition to any hint of peace that he denounced Arafat at the 1990 Fatah meeting. Subsequently, he was the only person not reelected to the Fatah Central Committee. Naturally, it is not surprising that Natsha then became an outspoken enemy of the Oslo agreement and the peace process. He was willing to run for the PLC from Hebron on Arafat's ticket and was elected (though he came in only sixth of the 10 successful candidates). Arafat even made him minister of labor in the 1996 cabinet. Thus, the PLC is now controlled by a complete Arafat loyalist who is a hard-liner and who opposes even minimal steps for peace. Translation: the PLC will not be a force for moderation or democracy.
Second, Qurei's government was held up for some weeks because of a heated debate over who would be the minister of interior, an important post since it controls the security forces. Arafat was minister of interior until former PA premier Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) tried to reform the system. Abbas then functioned in that job formally but let Muhammad Dahlan take the leading role. Qurei wanted to put Nasser Yusuf, another tough guy, into the job. Arafat rejected this idea. So who is minister of interior in the end? Hakam Balawi. He is Arafat's hairdresser valet, one of his closest and most trusted assistants, who served as PLO ambassador to Tunisia when Arafat was in Tunis but was basically Arafat's office manager. Balawi has no military experience whatsoever and no base of support other than that which Arafat gives him. It would be impossible for Arafat to have picked anyone more servile and less capable of pulling the security forces into line. Is Balawi going to order these people to arrest terrorists, stop Hamas, end corruption? No. And if Arafat had any intention of doing so, he would not have picked Balawi.
Third, whatever became of Jibril Rajoub? The former head of Preventive Security on the West Bank was the favorite of the CIA and, at times, someone who Israel hoped would be a powerful moderate. Now he has been co-opted by Arafat. Rajoub has so many enemies that his decision to throw himself on the mercy of the Old Man is understandable. He also is happy to battle his old rival Dahlan. Rajoub has returned from being a virtual outcast to being Arafat's national security adviser. In a November 4 interview, Rajoub did a thorough job of showing his new hard-line version. According to him, the current US government hates the Arabs. The Palestinians bear no responsibility for the three years of war because they are always the victim. He wants a revived Russia to balance the United States in the region. On the positive side, Rajoub criticized attacks on Israelis within the Green Line. But what stands out most of all is Rajoub's call to increase resistance to the US in Iraq. In short, he is calling for more anti-American violence there and urging Arabs to kill American soldiers.
Meanwhile, Arafat continues his refusal to cooperate in the investigation of the terrorist attack that killed three American security men in Gaza. New revelations proving the stupendous amount of aid money stolen by Arafat are making headlines. There is more proof of his direct support for terrorist operations. These facts are not going to endear Arafat's regime to the US government or the American people. That is why US reluctance to deal with Arafat, much less help him, should not be surprising.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 14:32 ||
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The author of this was, I think, one of the hostages taken in Iran back in the late 70s.
From DEBKA... Searching for some kind of corroboration...
The Jordanian gunman who cut down a group of Ecuadorian pilgrims with automatic gunfire at the border crossing from Jordan to Israel north of Eilat on Wednesday, November 19, did much more than shatter the calm of a border terminal normally bustling with goods, tourist and business traffic between the Jewish state and Hashemite kingdom. The assault dashed any illusions about Osama bin Laden holding off from drawing blood in Israel. Five of the pilgrims were injured â one later died of her wounds â as they prepared to cross into Jordan, victims of al Qaedaâs first direct strike inside Israel. The attack bore the fingerprints of Abu Musab Zarqawi, believed to be Al Qaedaâs top terror âcontractor.â A spokesman in Amman insisted the gunman acted on his own. His acknowledgement that the killer hailed from the Zarka area in the north of the kingdom let the cat out of the bag. According to DEBKAfileâs counter-terrorism sources, Zarqawi and Al Qaeda run a strong and well organized terrorist network out of the Zarqa area, Zarqawiâs home ground. It is hardly plausible that the gunman was not part of this setup.
Proximity's grounds for attention, but it's not definitive. Got anything else?
Jordanâs King Abdullah is beset with trouble â no matter which way he looks. In Saudi Arabia to the south, the government is reeling from a wave of Al Qaeda bombings. To the east in Iraq, Saddam Husseinâs guerrillas, aided by Arab fighters that include members of Al Qaeda, carry out daily attacks against US occupation forces. In Israel to the west, an Israeli-Palestinian war continues unabated. And Arab fighters continue to use Syria, to the north of Jordan, as their primary transit route into Iraq. Nonetheless, up until the Eilat attack, Jordan had looked like an oasis of calm â thanks to the effective blackout the Jordanians and Americans have imposed on news of terrorist activities in the country.
Don't look at me. I didn't impose it. Paul, was that you? Dan?
But something was seriously amiss in the kingdom of the Hashemites. DEBKAfileâs intelligence and counter-intelligence sources have learned that US forces found a list of 120 Jordanians who were either on their way to fight Americans in the Sunni Triangle or already in place. The lists were turned up in recently mounted raids in the Iraqi cities of Tikrit and Fallujah. Washington handed the roster to king Abdullah, who was profoundly shocked.
SHOCKED, I tell you!
The Jordanians, whose military intelligence is usually excellent when it comes to Muslim subversive activities, hadnât a clue Al Qaeda had been running a recruitment network inside the kingdom through a small and relatively obscure organization called the Muslim Labor Party â a radical branch of the Jordanian Muslim Brotherhood. Before the list was dug up, no one in Amman had imagined Al Qaedaâs penetration of the country was so extensive. Jordan scrambled to declare a state of military emergency and is currently chasing party radicals and al Qaeda recruits who have not yet left for Iraq.
Sometimes we pretend we don't see things that are there because they're so ugly...
Zarqawi is a citizen of Jordan, escaped from a death sentence imposed for organizing a failed millennium terror campaign in December 1999. Jordanian Al Qaeda members were to strike the Mount Nevo pilgrimage site, the convents east of Jericho, the banks of the River Jordan that divides the West Bank from Jordan and Amman luxury hotels that were packed with Christian pilgrims and Israeli tourists. Later, he became Al Qaedaâs chemical and biological weapons expert and in 2003 was known to have been put in charge of attacks against Israeli and Jewish targets in Israel and overseas.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 13:31 ||
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King Abdullah may want to attend the terrorism summit in SA. Word is they are working on ways to counteract terrorism via Islam.
#2
The Jordanians, whose military intelligence is usually excellent when it comes to Muslim subversive activities, hadnât a clue Al Qaeda had been running a recruitment network inside the kingdom through a small and relatively obscure organization called..
#3
JPost is saying basically same thing as Debka on this
Posted by: Frank G ||
11/20/2003 14:00 Comments ||
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I believe, that in a very terrible way, good will come of the recent SA, Turkey, and now Israel attacks through Jordan. Governments in that area are now faced with the facts that their own countries are infested with this terrorist disease. The Israeli's problem with terrorists have been a ho-hum issue to everyone else in the region because it has not hit their backyard, and its just Joooos, any way. Now these governments are going to have to deal with the problems or they will fall to the terrorist disease. I predict that they will flounder and do all kinds of things that do not address the issues. The smart ones will eventually get a clue, and the dumb ones, e.g. SA, will refuse to change fundamentally and will go down. OBL must be dead or indisposed, because the whole thing is going to soft targets in the middle east.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
11/20/2003 14:12 Comments ||
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No, they will just blame THE JOOOS and the United States for carrying out the attacks in those countries. Bet on it. "There is no way a muslim could have been responsible for this!" where have you heard THAT before?
#6
Remember, folks. The next Guardian of the Holy Sites will be the ruling family of Jordan. The Sods only got it cause they beat these guys up pretty good in 1919 or so. The Crown of Jordan rests on the Bedu, and they are some tuff MoFo's. The King moves to Arabia, and, voila as the Frogs say, the Palestinians have a state.
#7
John Loftus, of www.john-loftus.com, reported yesterday that this attack took place on Tuesday, and that the IDF had pulled the initial press reports. He also said that a couple of IDF soldiers were killed in a related gun battle (and cited the IDF website as a source). His sources said that this was definitely an al Qaeda attack, and that there is more to the story than is being reported.
Posted by: Tibor ||
11/20/2003 15:23 Comments ||
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#8
Just to contradict DEBKA .
The pilgrims were arriving from Jordan, to pass through Eilat on their way to Egypt.. That is was what we saw on the TV here and it was the same in the press. A small point I know.
Posted by: Barry ||
11/20/2003 15:52 Comments ||
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A former Guantanamo Bay translator arrested with classified documents in his luggage pleaded innocent Thursday in a brief appearance in federal court. "Lies, etc."
Ahmed Fathy Mehalba, who has been in federal custody since his arrest Sept. 29 at Logan International Airport, was charged in a Nov. 12 indictment with gathering, transmitting or losing defense information and making false statements. He is also charged with lying about not understanding the meaning of the term "secret" with regards to the classified documents, and about not receiving a security briefing. Mehalba, who is being held without bail, faces a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine on the gathering defense information charge, and a sentence of up to five years in prison and a $250,000 fine on each of two false statements charges.
Michael Andrews, Mehalbaâs attorney, said a plea deal with the government was possible in the case, as with any case. "We havenât made any decisions," he said. They need to go over the governments evidence and see just how bad things are. Plus, Mehalba needs to go along with a deal.
Federal Magistrate Judge Charles Swartwood set a Jan. 4 conference in the case, and said Mehalba does not need to appear at that hearing.
Posted by: Steve ||
11/20/2003 11:37:00 AM ||
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Still celebrating Ramadan. EFL:
Islamic militants burned to the ground thirteen churches and several houses in a remote northern Nigerian town after a Christian student was accused of blasphemy, police said on Thursday. Irate youths torched churches, houses and shops late on Tuesday in Kazaure, some 80 km north of Kano, a northern provincial capital where hundreds have died in religious clashes in the past three years. The dispute began when a Christian student was accused of insulting the Prophet Mohammad and a group of Muslims were not satisfied with the response of school authorities. "The school refused to stone him, so we had to take matters into our own hands." Abubakar Sale, police commissioner in the northern Jigawa state, told Reuters that the rioters attempted to invade the school but were repelled by police. "Cheez it, the cops! And they got guns, run away!"
"The hoodlums then mobilised and went into town where they started looting and burning peopleâs property," Sale said by phone from Dutse, the state capital. "Thirteen churches were burnt, several houses and shops were torched, but there were no deaths," said Keirian Dudari, assistant inspector general of police in Kano. No deaths? Slackers.
Police said the town was calm on Thursday after reinforcements were deployed to quell the riots. The violence came after three students were killed and more than 30 injured in fighting between Muslims and Christians at a university in northeastern city of Maiduguri earlier this month. More than 5,000 people have been killed in religious violence in northern Nigeria in the past four years since the introduction of Islamic sharia law in 12 states. Well, thatâs working out well, isnât it?
Posted by: Steve ||
11/20/2003 11:09:55 AM ||
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Good thing Islam is a religion of peace. Hate to see if it was an ANGRY one.
"On the fifth day of Ramadan, my true love gave to me FIVE BURNING CHURCHES"
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
11/20/2003 12:32 Comments ||
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Anybody more informed than me on islam correct me, but IIRC the very last day(s) of the ramadan is especially holy, something related to the lunar cycle. Perhaps the holy month of praying and fasting(tm) will end up with a bang?
One of these days, God is going to get tired of these angry blowhards, and deal them a REALLY HARD b$$$hslap, right across their manhood.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
11/20/2003 15:24 Comments ||
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The theological rationale for burning of churches by Islamics inflamed over, well, basically the existance of Christians as well as the west's aplogies for Islam is discussed by the ex-Muslims over at: http://www.faithfreedom.org/
This is the last reference I'll make to their site for a month. I feel guilty for neglecting other worthy sites.
Tip to WND (edited for brevity)
A controversial Islamic lobby group is demanding an apology from radio counselor Dr. Laura Schlessinger for an alleged "anti-Muslim tirade" on her program this week. Keep waiting
Schlessinger, whose coast-to-coast show is heard by 12 million listeners, "crossed the line from legitimate commentary on terrorism to Islamophobic bigotry," charges the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations, or CAIR. And CAIR knows how to cross the line.
The comments, on Mondayâs program, came in response to a mother who asked whether her 16-year-old daughter should take part in a Catholic high school classâs field trip to a local mosque. The visit was part of a "moral themes" class that aimed to help students learn how "Muslims are treated" in the United States. Schlessinger, a WND columnist, replied to the mother:
"This is a class on morals. What is the point of going to a mosque? ... Youâre joking of course. How many Americans have tortured and murdered Muslims. I think you ought to stand up against this class and this teacher. This is despicable. You tell him you are willing to go to the mosque only if it is one that has done its best to rout out terrorists in its midst. Instead of complaining.
"I am horrified that you would let her go. I am so sick and tired of all the Arab-American groups whining and complaining about some kind of treatment. What culture and what religion were all the murderers of 9-11? They murdered us. Thatâs the culture you want your daughter to learn about?"
ahh NO
Schlessingerâs producer, Keven Bellows, told WorldNetDaily the radio host is formulating a response but cannot comment at the moment. I was thinking something like âBITE MEâ
In a statement, CAIR said last year it asked Schlessinger to clarify her claim there is a "Muslim plan" to take over the world. Do we need to replay all the sermons from the mosques?
"When Schlessingerâs extremist views have been confronted in the past, she has often responded by attacking the source of the challenge, instead of dealing with the substance of the complaints," CAIR said. Dr Laura is more MAINSTREAM that CAIR can ever hope to be.
The groupâs communications director, Ibrahim Hooper, said "Dr. Lauraâs anti-Muslim tirade demonstrates a level of hostility toward Islam that should be of concern to her programâs audience and sponsors." LOL a threat from a muslim? How....Tolerant!
"It has been our experience that one-on-one interactions with ordinary American Muslims are the best way to dispel Islamophobic stereotypes and promote religious tolerance," Hooper said. "It is a pity that Dr. Laura would interfere with that learning process by dissuading a student from visiting a mosque."
Itâs good to see that CAIR has found a word that describes the feelings of DISTRUST towards the Islamic community: Islamophobic. Why are so many of us Islamophobic? âone-on-one interactions with ordinary American Muslims are the best way to dispel Islamophobic stereotypes and promote religious tolerance.â I donât think this is entirely true. I am sure that the people on those planes on 9/11 did not come away from that one-on-one interaction with a feeling of tolerance. Nor did the people in the twin towers or at the Pentagon. Am I painting with too broad a brush here? Maybe but consider that EVERY time a suicide bomber goes off in the world CAIR, PLO, Bathists, or any other Islamic based group tells us that itâs some Jewish conspiracy against them. To this dat I have not heard one of these groups take responsibility for their action or the hatred they have festered. Is it hard to admit the maybe, JUST MAYBE, they entire world does not revolve around the Palestinian/Israeli peace process? Also MAYBE Arafat is the WRONG leader for those people. Also maybe you donât have to spew about being the âdominant religionâ or instilling some Koranic law on us? I served in the Air Force with two gentleman that practiced Islam and I NEVER heard either one of them spew would comes out of these ânationalâ organizations. The leader of CAIR and other groups might want to stop trolling the air waves for Islamophobes and start cleaning up there own act. How about starting by telling the ILLEGAL immigrant Arabs that maybe if they respect the laws in this country people will be more tolerant of them. Or the next time some teenage bomber blows up a pizza parlor, you condemn the bomber and not the bombed. Sorry to rant on so but Dr. Laura is right on target with her comments no matter how unpalatable they are to CAIR. As a final note, maybe CAIR can help us by recalling all the terrorists that they helped catch. I sure would like to know that they are helping the WOT instead of bitching about their right.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) ||
11/20/2003 10:56:09 AM ||
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When CAIR executives and donors stop being linked to terrorists...
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
11/20/2003 11:04 Comments ||
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#2
:asked Schlessinger to clarify her claim there is a "Muslim plan" to take over the world"
There is, its written in the Koran (or Qu'aran). I would love to see CAIR draw this one out because I think what Dr. Laura said is well within reason and a lof people are gonna be thrilled to see someone stand up to CAIR.
#3
Click on the "Muslim Plan" link for a reminder. The article it leads to has a link to an even more detailed reminder.
Posted by: Fred ||
11/20/2003 11:18 Comments ||
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#4
Itâs good to see that CAIR has found a word that describes the feelings of DISTRUST towards the Islamic community: Islamophobic
Quite coincidentally, "islamophobie" (islamophobia) is also the new word now overly used by crimination groups & muslim groups in France. Does this indicate some kind of "internationally" coordonated PR plan, language proximity, or that I am paranoid?
#5
"Thatâs the culture you want your daughter to learn about?"
er, yeah.
Schlesinger is an idiot. Didnt she make a big stink about becoming Orthodox, and advocating for conservative views on sexuality. Then turned out to be a total hypocrite, and not really Orthodox? Of course CAIR is even bigger idiots - talk show hosts like her say extreme things just to get attention and callers. CAIR just did her a big favor.
#6
There is no Moslem culture. Islam is practiced in a variety of ways by many races and cultures around the world. It is in the interest of the Islamofascist enemy to suggest that there is a "Moslem" culture, just as there is a "Jewish" culture. That way the radicals, mostly Arab and/or Whahabi, can hide amongst the Indonesians or Bangladeshis.
#8
It is not ok for someone on the radio to say some stupid comment from the gut but it is OK for the leaders of muslim countries to state that there is a jewish comspiracy to dominate the world. This at an official gathering of heads of state! I am so sick of the double standards that is practiced by muslims.
Posted by: Dan ||
11/20/2003 13:26 Comments ||
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#9
There is no Moslem culture. This statement is incorrect. In the books Among the Believers: An Islamic Journey and its sequel Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions Among the Converted Peoples V. S. Naipaul discusses this topic in detail. According to him there is a Moslem culture and its imperialist, and based on Arabic culture, and it has tried to supress the cultures of all non-Arabic states that have become Islamic.
#10
"Thatâs the culture you want your daughter to learn about?"
On her own time, sure. But if the school field trip is about visiting a Mosque, then they should also visit a Synagogue, Christian Orthodox Church, Buddhist Temple, etc etc. Teach the kids tolerance, not some BS guilt-ridden diatribe that "we are the root of all evil".
Posted by: Rafael ||
11/20/2003 13:46 Comments ||
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#11
CAIR should take note of the dog that isn't barking here. Schlesinger has been taken to task many times in the past for her harsh comments. This time, nothing. Crickets chirping. Get the hint, CAIR. Her POV isn't extremist in this matter. Not anymore.
#12
She has high standards, tries to follow them, fails once, and so your take is that everything she says, irregardless of subject, is okay to ignore, LIBERALhawk?
#13
Who in their right mind would give CAIR any credance? When will the Muslim children be visiting the Churches and Synagogues on their field trip in an effort to better understand their non-Muslim neighbors? I still remember the rally CAIR and the American Muslim Alliance co-sponsored at Brooklyn College in 1998. The radical Egyptian cleric, Wagdy Ghuneim led the song, "No to the Jews, descendants of the apes". Three of CAIR's members were recently arrested under terrorism charges. Ismail Royer, Bassem Khafagi and Nihad Awad. Ismail Royer was picked up with over 200 rounds of ammo and an AK-47, part of the "Virginia jihad network."
#14
"How many Americans have tortured and murdered Muslims"
I think the proper analogy is "how many *Christians* have tortured and murdered Muslims", in which case Dr Laura ought to have a look at Bosnia.
'radical Egyptian cleric, Wagdy Ghuneim led the song, "No to the Jews, descendants of the apes".'
And people here are leading the song 'No to the Muslims, murderers and terrorists'? Not that much better, that one.
"That's the culture you want your daughter to learn about?"
One would expect that you would want to know about *any* culture that has impact on your life, whether that impact is positive or negative. Whether you are allies with it or at war.
Unless ignorance is the way to go, for Dr. Laura.
"She has high standards, tries to follow them, fails once, and so your take is that everything she says, irregardless of subject, is okay to ignore, LIBERALhawk?"
Well everything she says is okay to ignore the same way that anyone's opinion advocating ignorance for our children is okay to ignore.
#15
Again, Aris does his best to completely miss the point.
Like milford said, When will the Muslim children be visiting the Churches and Synagogues on their field trip in an effort to better understand their non-Muslim neighbors?
'No to the Muslims, murderers and terrorists'?
The 'Muslims' part is your interjection. But for the sake of argument, ask yourself, from the viewpoint of a Muslim, what does "No to the Jews" mean? In the majority of cases, violence would somehow be involved. "No to the Muslims" in the case of most Rantburgers would mean "keep your religion to yourself thank you very much" or "does separation of church and state mean anything to you?".
Posted by: Rafael ||
11/20/2003 21:18 Comments ||
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#16
I'm not sure why the children of a Christian Catholic school visiting a Muslim mosque is a violation of church and state.
"No to Muslims" in this specific incident seems a prohibition against Christian children visiting mosques or learning anything about the Muslim religion. Perhaps for fear that they'll be converted to Islam or something -- not sure what other fear Dr Laura may have.
It's you are completely missing the point -- the article concerns Dr.Laura saying she is disgusted at the idea of christian children visiting a mosque. And people here agreeing to it.
"When will the Muslim children be visiting the Churches and Synagogues on their field trip in an effort to better understand their non-Muslim neighbors?"
I dunno, what's *your* guess?
*My* guess is that if in these progressive countries we still have people thinking it despicable to have children learn about other religions, then it'll be a long time indeed before this attitude gets removed from the backwards Islamic countries.
#17
The visit was part of a "moral themes" class that aimed to help students learn how "Muslims are treated" in the United States.
The key phrases are 'moral themes' and 'how Muslims are treated'. Why is the treatment of Muslims in the US an issue to be examined all of a sudden? Is there widespread persecution or something? What's the deal? Of course, the implied "moral theme" of this field trip is that Muslims are being mistreated.
Secondly, why only the Muslim community? Why visit a Mosque and not a Synagogue?
Posted by: Rafael ||
11/20/2003 22:24 Comments ||
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#18
How do you know that a synagogue wasn't next or previous in a series of visits to other religions' places of worship? The article tells us little about what the rest of this "moral theme" entailed, or what its actual elements were -- it only tells us that the visit to the mosque was one of these element.
Selective reporting could quite well ensure that we wouldn't about trips to Buddhist temples or Synagogues, we would only hear about the trip to the mosque.
#19
When I was 13, we moved to Detroit, I never knew any Muslims prior. I interacted w/a lot of Arab Muslims, Muslim Kosovars, Serbs, Turks, Croatians & Arab Christians after our move. Still have some good friends who are Chaldean and Lebanese Christians.
Personally never had any problems w/them (the muslims), but I was never naive to their outlook on us either. I dealt w/them mostly in business climates, but on occasion socially. They (the muslims) were not interested in integrating w/the mainstream for the most part, looked down on American culture in general (i.e. Christianity), and had no compunction in screwing you over if given the chance. (there was no moral reason for them not to unless your a muslim as well). I also found them to look down heavily upon the inner-city blacks as inferior (this was not only a muslim peculiarity though, aside from white racism toward blacks, the Kosovars, Serbs, & Turks I knew seem to despise them as well).
I remember the muslims referring to all whites as Americans - I used to ask - aren't you an American as well? Your a citizen as well right? They would almost be insulted by this fact. Again, this was my observation of living in Detroit for 11 years. I know not all of them think like this. It is going to take a long time, believe me, for them to come around.
If my kid goes and visits a mosque, synagogue or ashram, that's fine w/me. Let him learn about other cultures/religions/philosophies. Knowledge is power, can never have too much knowledge. My wife & I will always be there to clarify things.
#20
the visit to the mosque was one of these element.
Yes, to learn how Muslims are being treated. But why bring this issue up unless someone thinks there is a problem with the treatment of Muslims in the US in general?
Posted by: Rafael ||
11/20/2003 23:20 Comments ||
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#21
Aris, you need to better educate yourself. Get a copy of the textbook, "What Islam is All About", by IBTS publishing. Also, "Mercy to Mankind" by IQRA Foundation, (until recently funded by the Saudi's). These books are widely used throughout the US in Islamic schools. They blatantly teach hatred for Christians and Jews. You should also read Frances Bok's book detailing the plight of Sudanese Christians forced into slavery and tortured and killed by the Muslims at the present time.
Just four months after a federal judge tossed out terrorism charges against activist lawyer Lynne Stewart and two co-defendants, the federal government yesterday re-indicted the trio on a different crime based on the same facts. The latest charges - which include a new conspiracy count - come eight weeks before Stewart and her co-defendants, Ahmed Abdel Sattar, a U.S. postal worker, and Mohammad Yousry, an Arabic interpreter, are to go on trial on Jan. 12.
Stewart, 64, who defended Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman in 1995 when he was charged with plotting to blow up city landmarks, was indicted last year on charges that she served as a secret conduit between Rahman and his followers in the terrorist organization, the Islamic Group. In July, U.S. District Judge John Koeltl dismissed those charges saying prosecutors had applied a law that was unconstitutionally vague.
In announcing the indictment, Attorney General John Ashcroft, said it was "justified by the evidence we obtained during our investigation." Stewart did not return calls for comment placed at her office nor did her lawyer, Michael Tigar.
The latest indictment charges that Rahman, who is serving life in prison, urged his followers to conduct a holy war to secure his release. Under a new theory, the government asserts that Stewart and Yousry used the sheik as personnel to carry out their conspiracy. That last sentence doesnât seem to make any sense, I think it should read "were used by the sheik".
The government now charges that Sattar conspired with Rahman to kill and kidnap individuals in foreign countries. Stewart and Yousry are also charged with the substantive offense of providing and concealing material support to the conspiracy to kill and kidnap. The superseding indictment also describes a series of new acts committed by Stewart and Yousry, including a May 2000 prison visit in which Yousry allegedly read communications to the sheik from Sattar and terrorists, while Stewart allegedly concealed that fact from prison guards. Iâll bet the vistors room was bugged, got them planning on tape.
Posted by: Steve ||
11/20/2003 10:51:40 AM ||
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EFL. From Newsweek.
CASE CLOSED blared the headline in a Weekly Standard cover story last Saturday that purported to have unearthed the U.S. governmentâs âsecret evidence of cooperationâ between Saddam and bin Laden. Fred Barnes, the magazineâs executive editor, touted the magazineâs scoop the next day in a roundtable chat on âFox News Sunday.â (Both the Standard and Fox News Channel are owned by the conservative media baron Rupert Murdoch.) âThese are hard facts, and Iâd like to see you refute any one of them,â he told a skeptical Juan Williams of National Public Radio. Read the whole thing....here
Posted by: Dragon Fly ||
11/20/2003 6:19:49 AM ||
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#1
this article is mostly a case against the memo
mostly a "my unamed sources are better than your unamed sources. "
Fred or someone else should address it in you remarkably flavorful manner.
They mention the "hoary" claim about the czech meeting repeating the mantra that the FBI cannot say whether it happened. They do so seemingly without knowing the story that the FBI made up a story about Atta being in the US which it rescinded later.
The left is on the attack with its big media again.
The story wouldn't go away so it has to be addressed.
Posted by: joe ||
11/20/2003 7:45 Comments ||
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#2
We are seeing a duel within the intelligence community played out publicly. The guys in charge should find out who the leakers are and put them up on charges if possible, fire them if not. Even leaks that seem to help the President are leaks and thus unacceptable.
#3
Given the reference to Fox and Rupert Murdoch, wouldn't it be ironic if news outlets began to report: "Both the Washington Post and Newsweek are owned by the very liberal Graham family."
#6
These are the exact same folks who were trying to tell us last spring that Zarqawi wasn't even part of al-Qaeda and in fact hated bin Laden (thereby perpetuating the "Bush lied" meme) solely on the basis of one of his allies in Germany.
They're trying very, very hard to debunk this without even noting that the same ex-CIA guy whom they use to "refute" evidence of a tie between bin Laden and Hijazi in 1999 was also claiming a possible Iraqi connection to the Cole bombing in 2000 ...
I know, I have too long an attention span ...
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
11/20/2003 9:58 Comments ||
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#7
Dan Darling -- Do you mean Vincent Canistaro? Another former CIA talking head who's full of it is Larry Johnson. He was all over the airwaves after 9/11, but I remember reading an op-ed piece by him from 1999 or so saying that al Qaeda was no real threat. He reminds me of that other famous "analyst" who thought the war wasn't going well until he declared victory on April 10th. I think his name was Wesley something . . .
Posted by: Tibor ||
11/20/2003 10:34 Comments ||
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#8
Newsweek has been on the enemy's side for months now. Let's not forget that.
#9
Yes, Larry Johnson penned an op-ed piece basically saying that the terrorist threat was diminishing, and what was that day -> Sept 11 2001.
Ironic, ....
Posted by: joe ||
11/20/2003 11:16 Comments ||
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#10
Feith is one of the people who is probably going to get tossed to the wolves for slipshod thinking in regards to Iraq.
Yeah, sure. Never mind that he's been saying the same things the Clinton administration said; now that there's another administration around, all the facts have changed.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
11/20/2003 11:17 Comments ||
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#11
Dan, I am waiting for your report. I am sure it will be good reading
Posted by: joe ||
11/20/2003 11:20 Comments ||
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#12
If Feith gets canned it wont be for saying things about WMD, it will be for post-war force planning etc. But Im not sure who's idea the minimalist occupation was - I tend to think Rumsfeld.
#14
Joe, are you saying that Larry Johnson's op-ed piece was published on 9/11/01? Do you have a link for the op-ed? I thought it was much earlier than that (maybe before even the Cole bombing).
Posted by: Tibor ||
11/20/2003 13:11 Comments ||
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#15
I saw it a while ago let me see if I can find it again.
Posted by: joe ||
11/20/2003 14:31 Comments ||
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Larry C Johnson Op-Ed article says that politically inspired terrorism, as opposed to more ordinary criminality motivated by simple greed, is not as common as most people may think, and that, contrary to popular belief, US and its policies are not primary targets of terrorist activity; says terrorist attacks against Americans and American interests have become comparatively rare
what stuck in my mind was this, "Bin Laden has an international network of contacts, but it's more analogous to the Elvis Presley fan club than a corporation like General Motors"
this is an example of the sleeping on the job.
read the whole thing. Wy listen to a joker like this.
Posted by: joe ||
11/20/2003 14:41 Comments ||
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#17
Thanks, Joe. I remember seeing him billed on various cable news shows after 9/11 as a former CIA agent who was a terrorism expert, and then seeing his op-ed posted on the web somewhere as an example of the CIA's intelligence failures.
Posted by: Tibor ||
11/20/2003 15:01 Comments ||
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#18
BTW, here is Stephen Hayes' rebuttal of the Isikoff/Hosenbill Newsweek article linked above:
Posted by: Tibor ||
11/20/2003 15:04 Comments ||
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#19
Tibor - Not Cannistraro, though it sure is interesting to note that he was telling the BBC right after the U.S.S. Cole bombing that al-Qaeda had been in touch with the Iraqi military.
I was referring to Isikoff/Hosenbill, who got ahold of Shadi Abdallah's (one of Zarqawi's flunkies who was busted in Germany) claims that Zarqawi was just another pro-Palestinian terrorist and that he hated al-Qaeda and posted them in a Newsweek web exclusive remarkably similar to this in order to perpetuate their "Bush lied" meme. Of course, that was pretty much blown straight to hell when the WaPo reported that Zarqawi was getting marching orders from Saif al-Adel and Co, but to my knowledge they have never admitted they were wrong or even published a retraction noting this and the article is still available online.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
11/20/2003 18:08 Comments ||
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EFL. This speaks for itself:
Lt. Col. Allen West admitted during an emotional preliminary hearing today he used wrong methods to extract information from an Iraqi detainee but insisted American lives were at stake. Accused of threatening to kill the Iraqi if he didnât disclose details of an imminent plot against U.S. soldiers, West was asked by his defense attorney if he would do it again. Here it is:
"If itâs about the lives of my men and their safety, Iâd go through hell with a gasoline can," he said, according to Reuters. And then this...
"But thatâs whatâs going on out there in the streets here, and thatâs how I feel about my boys," he told the hearing, held in Saddam Husseinâs hometown Tikrit. "There is not a person in this room I would not sacrifice my life for."
Posted by: Dragon Fly ||
11/20/2003 6:11:41 AM ||
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#1
This guy has nothing to apologize for. They should be giving him a medal.
#2
I will be so disgusted if this man is punished in any way, shape or form, other than a "bad dog, no!" I just hope that the powers that be have the ability to do the right thing, now that he has confessed.
Posted by: Mike ||
11/20/2003 8:30 Comments ||
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#4
Col. David Hackworth has a good take on this in his Nov 11 column at WorldNetdaily: "Fire the Perfumed Princes."
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35534
#5
The guy did something we've seen a thousand movie stars do in a thousand movies. The US people have been convinced this is not a bad thing over and over for decades. If they put him up on trial they will face a political fiasco.
#6
What soldier wouldn't want to serve under a leader like this? After his gasoline can remark, I'll bet soldiers are lining up to serve in his unit. He should be promoted not penalized. He could be the next Patton.
I swear if they court martial this guy I will switch sides.
Posted by: Michael ||
11/20/2003 9:56 Comments ||
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#8
Lt. Col. West's efforts were counterproductive.
1.) He allowed his men to beat an Iraqi police officer. The Iraqi is already putting his life and family at risk by volunteering for this duty. He is the real hero. Instead he gets beat until he curls into a fetal position.
2.) He was wrong. The guy didn't know anything.
I support the war and believe that what we are doing there is right. But we can't allow guys like West to create more enemies. In the long run, his actions are putting his men in more danger by alienating the Iraqis. They need to find out who is spreading the false intelligence and cream them. There must be a better way.
#9
Austin - I believe this happened during the war at the hieght of major combat operations. Do not think he was a police officer under the coalition.
Rantburgers please correct me if I am wrong.
Posted by: Dan ||
11/20/2003 10:54 Comments ||
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#10
Austin, Dan. The way I understand the story is it happened after major operations. The Iraqi fellow in question was trained by the US as a cop but was working with insurgents to set Lt. Col West's unit up in an ambush. Somehow West's guys figured it out and eventually got the guy to talk by threatening his life. They busted the ambush rather than falling into it.
#11
Austin; bullshit bro. This is straight out of the article:
"I accept responsibility for the episode, but my intent was to scare this individual and keep my soldiers out of a potential ambush," he continued. "There were no further attacks from that town. *(sounds to me like alienating Iraqis wasn't a problem)* We further apprehended two other conspirators (a third fled town) and found out one of the conspirators was the father of a man we had detained for his Saddam Fedeyeen affiliation." West said Hamoody "and his accomplices were a threat to our soldiers and the method was not right, but why should I lose 20 years of service or be forced into prison for protecting my men?"
I'd trust a proven Battalion Commander w/19+ yrs in to make the call on the scene when it comes to tactics and the welfare of his lads. Combat vets were crying at his farewell speech - you don't get that response from professional soldiers unless you're worth your salt. Unless you got a no-shit my lai massacre on your hands you don't ever second guess the officer on the scene. This wasn't even close to being an issue until it was brought up in an exit survey. If the Army had been smart they'd have handled this in house. Instead, they will just get embarrassed.
#14
There seems to be two versions of the story being written in the media. The version I read from the Associated Press
seems to indicate that the Iraqi police officer, Yahya Jhodri Hamoodi, was innocent.
#16
I am not a troll. I am just trying to find out what happened and hoping some of the more knowledgeable posters of Rantburg can provide information.
I have compared the Reuters and AP stories now and have found that Reuters reported that Hamoodi knew details of a pending sniper attack. AP leaves the story sounding as if Hamoodi was innocent. AP should correct their version of events. I feel more confident that Lt. Col. West did the right thing.
As for you, anonymous, understand that discussion can help as long as both sides approach from an open minded position. Don't try to crush or ignore just because you don't like what you read. Seek first to understand and then to be understood. Unlike Murat, I am not closed minded. :)
#17
Austin; so the AP differs from the Reuters that much huh? Interesting. That makes your first post more understandable. That's why I posted verbatim from the story I read. I was thinking in the back of my mind -"where'd he hear that stuff from".
Out of the four soldiers that beat on Hamoodi, one of them said he didn't know of any evidence against Hamoodi, the other three of course said they knew of evidence on Hamoodi. Maybe the AP ran with what the one guy said and dismissed the other three & West. That makes sense w/our current journalism bias. BTW - I don't think you're a troll. Seeking the truth is always the bottomline no matter how unpleasant.
There are some nuances to this story that are possibly being distorted for whatever reason. I go off my gut instinct knowing the type of Battalion Commanders I've been lucky enough to be around. None were rash in their actions, typically prudent, and all were highly educated, highly trained individuals. I'd trust a guy of West's background more then some asshole reporter.
#18
I can only speak for my military experience and LtCol West is EXACTLY what I want in a CO. I think they are going to be hard pressed to find a jury to convict him of the serious charges. Heck he might walk away scott free. But the Army will take his Command away to save face. Too bad I bet he has an EXTREMELY loyal Battalion. People get that way after you save them from being shot.
#19
I can only speak for my military experience and LtCol West is EXACTLY what I want in a CO
Likewise. I would much rather follow him (even if he IS a cannon-cocker) than the 4th ID CG, or CENTCOM, whoever decided to bring charges against this guy. To them, it's more important to be sensitive to terrorists and appease the leftists, than to worry about getting troops killed. Those cowardly sonsabitches should be thrown out of the service, not West.
#20
than the 4th ID CG, or CENTCOM, whoever decided to bring charges
I'd start looking first at the Pentagon paper-pushers, rather than field commanders. We have some people in "high places" that got there by being Wesley Clark - all politics and no common sense. Most Division officers and even major commanders get there by doing it the hard way - slogging up through the ranks, filling each position on the TO, and doing it well enough to get recognized as "better than most". Unfortunately, there ARE other decision-making processes in use, but not ordinarily in combat commands.
This Colonel West is certainly better than the one I served under in the 60's. Of course, THAT Colonel West ended up retiring in disgrace.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
11/20/2003 21:41 Comments ||
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#21
I'd start looking first at the Pentagon paper-pushers
In that case, his regimental co, the 4th cg, and CENTCOM should have gone to bat for him. Instead they rolled over and let the colin powells in washington the candy-asses screw him.
This whole episode is incredibly disappointing. No better way to shoot team spirit in the ass than to screw over one of the 'good guys'.
South Koreaâs police chief denied on Wednesday a press report that a suspected member of Osama bin Ladenâs Al Qaeda network had secretly infiltrated the country this year.
"You, there! Yeah! The tall guy with the turban. You... ahhh... you ain't from around here, are you?"
âI think the report is groundless,â Choi Key-Moon, head of the National Police Agency, told the National Assembly. Seoulâs JoongAng daily said on Wednesday the suspected Al Qaeda member had entered South Korea through a Southeast Asian country. He was later arrested in another country and is in US custody, according to the newspaper which quoted an unidentified South Korean intelligence source. A spokesman for the National Intelligence Service, South Koreaâs spy agency, denied that the agency was the source of the report.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:08 ||
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#1
See that pitiful, whimpering, bruised piece of sh*t over there? Koreans turned him over to us, after he, ummm, assisted them with their inquiries.
The US embassy in Beirut has revoked a visa for a Druze leader and member of parliament following his comments about a senior US politician. Walid Jumblatt had expressed regret that US Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz was unhurt in Baghdad attack last month.
What? A penalty for shooting your mouth off? Unheard of!
Jumblatt confirmed he had received a letter from the US embassy in Beirut cancelling the visa. The letter said the visa had been cancelled in line with a law saying it could not be granted to a foreign dignitary who used his position to support or encourage âterrorismâ. Jumblatt told Aljazeera.net that he has no regrets over his comments regarding Wolfowitz, adding he was not surprised by the embassy's action.
We have no regrets over Wally not getting a visa, either...
"But they should also deprive visas for the hundreds of thousands of people in London demonstrating against Bush's visit. They should also consider the mayor of London a terrorist, if they are going to go around terrorising the world with these policies," he said.
Actually, I think that's a good idea. Piss off, Wally. Go to Damascus.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:08 ||
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#1
I had a buddy of mine who was a USMC scout/sniper and had Wally in his crosshairs in Beirut one day back in 1983. He's always said that if he had one wish, he'd like to be back in that position again. Wally wouldn't be having visa problems if he got his wish, unless you need a visa to get into hell.
#2
""But they should also deprive visas for the hundreds of thousands of people in London demonstrating against Bush's visit. They should also consider the mayor of London a terrorist, if they are going to go around terrorising the world with these policies," he said."
Red Ken encouraged free speech and stupidity, not necessarily terrorism. It says a lot that Al Jazeera can't spot the difference. Its also telling that Al Jazeera equates the hundreds of thousands of people in london with"Foreign dignitary's". Pretty sad reporting, I'm thinking perhaps Al Jazeera isn't gonna get the pulitzer this year.
The Druze, who are not precisely Muslim, are historically targets of racist attacks by Muslims, which is why their religion requires them to build their villages on mountaintops. Am I right so far? During the civil war in Lebanon, Druze forces were generally on the side of Israel.... am I right? So for Pete's sake WHAT is this guy's problem? I thought the Druze were, well, not exactly "good guys" but at least not bad ones. Somebody school me on this.
The Druses aren't Muslims if you ask a mainstream Sunni or Shia (not to mention a Wahabi, but those nuts believe to be the only true Muslims), however if you ask a Druse they are Muslims.
The Lebanese Druses didn't side with Israel, what happens is that the Druse have a policy of loyalty to the country they are living in and for that reason Israeli Druses serve in Israeli army and have given their lives for Israel
#11
I doubt Red Ken would want to come to the US, unless it was to Massachusetts. I'm not even sure Harvard is left enough to put up with his trash mouth. As for the rest of the unemployed/student "protest" class in London, most couldn't afford the airfare, and we don't have enough 'hostels' with cheap enough rates to bring them here. As for Al-Jiz getting a Pulitzer: hey, politics is EVERYTHING tothe Pulitzer committee. Take a long look at their recipients over the last 50 years.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
11/21/2003 0:11 Comments ||
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Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei was due to meet with Palestinian resistance leaders in the Gaza Strip Wednesday amid increasing signs of a looming ceasefire agreement between the Palestinians and the Israeli apartheid regime. Palestinian sources said Qurei would meet with the leaders of Hamas, the Islamic Jihad and Fatah for the purpose of ironing out a prospective ceasefire agreement which could put an end to nearly 40 months of internecine violence between the Palestinian people and the apartheid regime. Earlier, five resistance groups, including Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad and two other leftist groups, declared formally their support for a new ceasefire agreement. The Zionist regime has also voiced a willingness to put an end to the policy of assassinations which target Palestinian political leaders and intifada activists. The Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Wednesday quoted several Israeli officials Wednesday as saying that Israel would agree to stop âtargeted killingsâ of Palestinians if Palestinians stopped their resistance attacks on Israeli targets.
Yeah. Yeah. We've heard it all before. No doubt this time's gonna be different...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:07 ||
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The United States and South Korea agree the time has come, 50 years after the Korean War, for the economically vibrant Asian country to lessen its dependence on the American military, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Tuesday. "It is time for them to set a goal for becoming somewhat more self-reliant," Rumsfeld said during a question-and-answer session with several hundred US troops at Osan Air Base.
Goodbye, SKor. It's been real.
Banners lining the hangar where he spoke highlighted the immediacy of the North Korean military threat felt by 37,000 American troops stationed here and around the country. "Ready to Fight Tonight," read the banner of the 51st Fighter Wing. "Take the Fight North," read another. In an interview later, Rumsfeld told reporters he endorses President Roh Moo-hyun's vision of a South Korea that takes more responsibility for its own defense. "That's a correct direction," Rumsfeld said, noting that defense officials in Seoul reaffirmed to him Monday their plan to shift 10 military missions now performed by Americans to their own forces, including security in the border area with the North.
Rumsfeld's comment also reflects his desire to see a major realignment of US forces in South Korea â a change that likely will result in a sizable troop reduction. The Pentagon believes as many as 12,000 of the 37,000 troops could be brought home, although Rumsfeld and others said the scope and timing of any troop cuts have not been decided.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:07 ||
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#1
Damn, Jarhead speaks and Rummy reacts!
Posted by: Steve White ||
11/20/2003 0:15 Comments ||
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#2
This has been overdue for a long time.
Posted by: Patrick Phillips ||
11/20/2003 4:41 Comments ||
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#3
Steve W., I called in a favor. I told Rummy about the bad kim-chee and that since the Norks have went to 4'10" soldiers I felt the SKor's could handle them. He agreed, we drank a beer & had a hearty laugh about those six Iraqi mortarmen getting whacked last week by that gunship.......BTW - Rummy predicts Oklahoma over USC in the BCS final 28 - 17. ;)
#4
Steve White, funny thing, I thought the exact same thing when I read this post. Nice going Jarhead.
Fact is the South Koreans made a big stink about wanting the troops gone. They were very persuasive. Sometimes you should think about what you demand because you just might get it.
#5
Anyone think the troops are headed for Iraq ? Why waste 'em on a sunshine policy when they're needed elsewhere. Is Germany next ? Rummy is my hero either way.
#11
Can the last guy out of Yongsan garrison please turn off the lights? And I had a pair of shoes on order at UN Shoes, across from the Itaewan gate, can you be a sport and pick them up for me? Thanks, ever so.
#12
When i was stationed at Osan in 88-89 i thought back then that our troop levels were way to high. Most people thought we were there to stop the South from taking that North. Let's get out and let them have at it.
#13
I just had an idea - pull out all U.S. forces, and also evacuate all the older folks that remembered, and are grateful for, American sacrifices to keep the Reds out and leave all the snot-nosed little protesting know-it-alls behind to the mercy of Kim Jong Il's thugs.
Perhaps it will be easier for the NORKS to reconcile (beg, surrender, plead) with the SKs if the big nooses are out of the picture. Save a little face, rewrite a little history... who knows.
A key ally of the Georgian president Eduard Shevardnadze has resigned amid an escalating political crisis. The departure of state broadcasting chief Zaza Shengelia is being seen as a sign that support for Mr Shevardnadze is weakening among his allies.
G'bye, Ed. It's been nice... Well, it's been okay.
Opposition leaders have been calling for the president to step aside since a disputed parliamentary election at the beginning of the month. International observers say the vote was riddled with irregularities. Mr Shengelia left his post on Wednesday following criticism of his coverage of the current situation in the former Soviet Republic. Mr Shengelia, a long-standing friend of the president's, announced he was stepping down as the chairman of state television and radio.
I wonder if this sort of thing will spread next door to Azerbaijan?
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:07 ||
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Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak interrupted a keynote speech to parliament on Wenesday for about 45 minutes after suffering a "severe 'flu". State television showed a pale-looking Mubarak, smiling as members of parliament stood to applaud his return to the chamber of the People's Assembly before he resumed his speech. He spoke about the crisis in the Middle East before terminating his speech five minutes later and leaving again. Information Minister Safwat al-Sharif said the 75-year-old president was suffering from "a severe 'flu, accompanied by fever".
Hosni's 75? I didn't know that. Must be the Grecian Formula...
Earlier, Mubarak was seen coughing, pulling out a handkerchief and wiping perspiration from his brow moments before state television cut the broadcast of his speech for several minutes. Sound transmission continued for seconds longer than the picture, with coughing and shouting heard. When the broadcast of the assembly resumed, Mubarak was absent from the podium and a television announcer reported the president had suffered a "minor health problem". The assembly speaker, Fathi Srur, told the chamber "the president is fine and in several minutes he will come back to resume his speech". But it was about 45 minutes before he reappeared in the amphitheater-like chamber, where the members of parliament had waited in their seats. Mubarak had postponed to Wednesday the keynote speech he originally planned to deliver to parliament on Sunday after falling ill with a fever.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
11/20/2003 23:07 ||
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#1
This isn't a strain of the "Yeltsin flu", is it?
#2
Arabic news reports suggest that Mubarak might have more than a cold. I assume that Egyptian elites would replace him with a clone. However, someone who didn't bend so much to the Islamofascists, in consideration of Ikhwan assassins, would be better.
Posted by: Vlad the Muslim Impaler ||
11/20/2003 3:40 Comments ||
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#3
Hah, we must have increased the range of the Zionist Death Ray(tm).
Posted by: Steve ||
11/20/2003 8:38 Comments ||
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#4
I think Junior's tipped to take over when Hosni kicks it. Egypt's an hereditary democracy.
Posted by: Fred ||
11/20/2003 9:04 Comments ||
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#7
Hosni's 75? I didn't know that. Must be the Grecian Formula...
Salaam Aleikum! My name is Hosni Mubarak. Running a malfunctioning dictatorship over Egypt puts a lot of stress on a man, especially on my hair. That's why I use Just for Men: Dictator Formula....
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
