Twenty-eight rockets of the Grad rocket-launching system were found in the Novosibirsk region of Russia, Siberia. The rockets were found in a village of Morozovo — a man made a fence from the rockets for his vegetable garden. The information about the rocket-like objects in one of the gardens of the village was received from the head of the local administration. Police officers and specialists from the local security department left for the village to check the information. Having examined the plot of land, the specialists found 28 rockets of the Grad rocket-launching system. The rockets were placed in the ground vertically to create an enclosure. There were no detonators on the rockets.
Wotta maroon! How y'gonna keep the rabbits out if you don't have detonators? Though just using rockets shows he's not very bright. I always use land mines, myself...
Posted by: Fred ||
09/21/2004 10:43:41 AM ||
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#1
I guess this came close to becoming a Darwin winner. Maybe next year.
#3
B-u-i-l-d  m-o-r-e  p-r-i-s-o-n-s  T-o-n-y
Posted by: Howard UK ||
09/21/2004 9:12 Comments ||
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#4
All this talk of the appropriate sentencing for premeditated murder could be solved at a stroke if mandatory life without the possibility of parole was implemented. There is no less appropriate punishment.
The idea of releasing murderers early to save money attracts the same sort of moron who believes that taxing people more will make our lives better. We put murderers out of society for a reason. We think it's worth the cost. Of course, there's another way to save money and keep mudrers away from polite society, and shorten sentences... It looks more and more attractive when the judiciary seem intent on giving offenders as easy a life as possible.
#5
Shit, I'd pay more tax if it put more police on the beat and sorted schools out... doesn't seem to be. The increased tax spent on the NHS appears to be working - I get treatment much more quickly and at a higher standard than I did 5 years ago.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
09/21/2004 9:26 Comments ||
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#6
We put murderers out of society for a reason.
Until something is done to restore the death penalty, the respite is only temporary.
#9
"We get a full life sentence, so why shouldn't they?"
-shit, 15 years isn't nearly enough for these assholes. Killers either get life in prison or the death penalty imho. There is no rehab for this type of crime. 15 years is an insult and 7 years is an absolute joke. WTF is wrong w/some people. Even a rabid dog has to be put down.
#10
Yup, seems Tony's out to placate the loony-left which is still present but has had to shut its mouh to help the Labour Party maintain credibility at the polls. With an election looming I expect more of the same(fox hunting ban etc...). A 'cop-killer' only did 9 years recently... a joke - I have tried to source this but can't - Bulldog will tell me off I'm sure.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
09/21/2004 13:25 Comments ||
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Several grenades exploded in an office building owned by the Dutch Shell Oil Co. in western Venezuela, injuring a security guard, police said Tuesday. Several grenades were thrown into the office building Sunday night in Maracaibo, 500 kilometers west of Caracas, said Federal Police Chief Ildefonso Urdaneta. The grenades did not reach the inside of the building and caused only minor damage, Urdaneta said. Only a few guards were in the building, which was being redecorated. No arrests were made. But Urdaneta said leaflets left at the site were signed by a group that says it opposes the changes being made in the building because it is a historic landmark.
So they throw grenades at it? That makes sense. Not a lot of sense, but sense...
Posted by: Fred ||
09/21/2004 4:05:23 PM ||
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...leaflets left at the site were signed by a group that says it opposes the changes being made in the building because it is a historic landmark.
"We wish to save the historic landmark by destroying it..."
#2
Fred, I've had extensive work in replacing/ retrofitting historic structures, mostly bridges, but some rail structures and buildings. The environmental review process always looks for a preferred alternative - quite possbily a "grenade-damaged, but exquisitely redecorated building" was the preferred alternative in their version of NEPA documentation?
oh, and /sarcasm
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/21/2004 19:30 Comments ||
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#3
I bet we didn't fun into many ELF activists in Afghanistan.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/21/2004 21:26 Comments ||
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#2
Not speaking to Chavez's merits, or lack thereof; but republican foreign policy south of Mexico has been an utter disaster since the 1960s. Despite having very talented people working in the foreign sections elsewhere, the central- and South-American desk has been run by the most incompetant cabal of boneheads imaginable. Led by Elliott Abrams and Juan Otto Reich, these Diazistas hold an idealized view of that part of the world trapped in the 1940s: a choice between dictators and communist revolutionaries.
Fortunately for all concerned, central and South America haven't really been that critical in world affairs, under some vague memory of the Monroe Doctrine; but their potentials have been utterly squandered in some of the most asinine policies imagineable.
From the very first moment that Chavez chit-chatted with Castro, these two men decided that he had to go. And from there, they began to orchestrate, with the help of a platoon of Oliver North types, revolutionary plots of Monty Python-quality foolishness, aided by might best be described as the Venezuelan equivalent of a Yacht Club full of John Kerry supporters.
The US was spared most of the graphic details of these FOUR (or so) failed efforts by the fact that the ONLY wire service news leaving the entire country was written by ONE AP correspondent, who just happened to work at the "yacht club", and supported the Monty Pythoners. In short, the whole lot of them should be relieved, and Bush should not hire anyone who has ever even spoken to any of them, and start from scratch.
What four efforts are you talking about? Do not tell me that you buy into that crap that Bush tried to overthrow that SOB of Chavez in April 2002?
As a Venezuelan, I can tell you that we suffer from the same disease that all third world countries suffer from: paternalism and a heavy dose of anti-americanism. Because of the latter, we have become conditioned to only choose from dictators and communist revolutionaries. Both blame the US for the deplorable economic circuntances that we have lived in what it seems forever, and both promise to take care of all of our needs from craddle to death. Do you have any suggestion on how to break this vicious cycle?
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
09/21/2004 13:53 Comments ||
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#6
Anonymous6134: the only time the US has an effective foreign policy is during republican administrations. The dems tend to just tread water, then pat themselves on the back for a job "well done", as the world breathes a collective sigh of relief at their departure. However, though the republicans have *considerable* foreign policy expertise, central and South America have been a persistant blind spot for many years now. The US could be a great friend and ally of the people of these regions, if we had competant people at the desk, but right now we don't. The US could also act as a great mediator and educator between contentious groups--as it has done in other parts of the world--but our cabal does not grasp that concept, still seeing everything south of Mexico as divided between "El General Magnifico" and his clique of wealthy landholders on one side, and peons on the other. A movie stereotype of old.
So how to deal with Chavez? Granted, he is an unlovely character, but he is just a populist, no more, no less. He seems to understand the importance of the flow of oil from his country to the world. He is not some caricature, he can be dealt with, bargained with, haggled with, as long as someone is willing to do it. His time will pass, and should pass, in a peaceful manner. Perhaps someone more relaxed will replace him, perhaps not. But he is a far cry from Che Guevara. Finally, I have kept track of the efforts to overthrow him, and find them to be so poorly planned an executed as to be an embarassment. Except for the first one, the others have been abortive and ineffectual, even if a few people were killed. Reeking of cloak & dagger, they remind me of the assassination of Rasputin: conspirators listening to "Yankee Doodle" on a wind-up record player to steel their nerves, before returning to Rasputin to poison him, then stab him, then shoot him, then finally to push him below the ice in a river.
The US bunglers who encourge actions like this in Venezuela should be fired. If the US had a decent central and South American foreign policy Chavez either would see the advantages of friendship, or would concentrate on Venezuela's problems and ignore the US. Either of which would be better for the Venezuelans and the US than the foolishness going on right now.
DEMOCRACY is the most humane, inspiring and productive form of government in history.
A couple thousand years ago the Greeks practiced democracy. One day they all got together and somebody made a motion that Socrates drink hemlock and die. Somebody seconded the motion and it was duly carried. A hundred years later the Greeks were studying Macedonian. Inspiring, ain't it? Democracy is what a people makes it, and sometimes it amounts to the population getting together and voting on how best to screw each other.
The problem is that many people don't want it. At least, not badly enough to fight for it. Other concerns take priority, from economic well-being to security. When given a chance to vote, hundreds of millions of people around the world vote to make themselves less free.
To kinda sorta paraphrase Maslow, every human being longs for groceries, a roof over his head, and to get laid. Once he's got that, he longs for security for his kids and to provide for his family. Only once he's got that conditions we've routinely had here for a couple hundred years does he worry about "democracy." The "democracy" he (she or it) longs for is actually "freedom," which is a slightly different creature: the right to be left alone. The Russers are in a position where their individual freedom is actually enhanced at the moment by Putin's statist approach. He's promising to protect the law-abiding and hard-working from a lawless liesure class. Keep in mind that Basayev's hard boyz don't have to work for a living; they get their money from Soddy Arabia.
Personally, I believe that we should miss no opportunity to foster democracy around the world and that we must be willing to fight for it. But we have to get past our emotions and accept the cold reality of this world: At least a substantial minority of humankind prefers strict order to the uncertainties of freedom.
I think most people realize that there are degrees of freedom, ranging from the license of anarchy to the regimentation of North Korea. Americans tend toward the license side, the Euros are a little more regimented, and the Russers still more regimented. But Russian regimentation is still a far cry from North Korean or Salafist regimentation. I'm actually not worried at this point.
If we cannot look reality in the face, however little we like what we see, we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the Pentagon ideologues who believed that, once Saddam was removed, Iraq would turn into Nebraska overnight.
Nebbah hoppen, GI. First, Iraq had a long tradition of bloody-handed dictatorship. They're schooled into thinking of guns and mobs as methods of enforcing opinions. Second, prior to Sammy they couldn't manage to build a governmental system that was stable. One of Sammy's predecessors was not only shot to pieces by the new regime, but his corpse was abused on the teevee for a few days, just so the public would be sure he was titzup. Going into Iraq was a matter of liberating a loony bin. What's surprising to me is the number of people in Iraq who don't seem to be nutbags.
Democracy must be learned and earned. The process, as our own history instructs us, is long and often hard. Democracy is incomparably magnificent. But it isn't easy. Putin knows his people. He offers them social freedom and economic improvement in return for accepting limits on political freedom. Many Russians think it's a fair deal.
It is a fair deal. Genuine democracy is an expression of individual liberty. When the political system starts becoming oppressive, there'll be pressure to relax it.
Among the absurd punditry in the wake of the Beslan slaughter, the goofiest remark came from a "military analyst" who said, in a pompous, confident voice, that the Russian mistake was that they didn't bring in a special operations unit from nearby Chechnya. Anyone who knows anything about the Russian military and security services or who simply reads Cyrillic characters could tell from the news clips that the Kremlin had poured in its top special forces units from around the country. The problem wasn't that Moscow didn't care enough to send the very best: Putin sent the best he had and their performance was abysmal.
There's the real story: Russia's military sux. But that's a conclusion we came to here probably a couple years ago. Under the Sovs there was a small proportion of the officers' corps that was well-trained and professional. The MoD had the bad habit of putting them into the elite areas, where a lack of brain would show up, which is why there weren't more subs sunk or civilian airliners shot down. The KGB grabbed off the best of the lot before they got into the military, and the GRU had first pick of what did. The navy and the air force were smarter than the ground forces. The border guards were smarter than the ground forces. The strategic rocket forces were smarter than the ground forces. The air defense forces were smarter than the ground forces. The airborne troops were actually a separate branch, controlled by the General Staff, and they were smarter than the ground forces.
Then, within the ground forces, the creme was sent to the Groups of Soviet Forces in Europe. The bulk of the Soviet forces within the Soviet Union consisted of time servers and hacks, a problem which showed up glaringly when they moved 40th Army into Afghanistan. And all of the Soviet forces, keep in mind, got their enlisted men from a 2-year draft, with mobilizations and demobs occurring every six months. That meant at any one time one quarter of the enlisted force was made up of greenies. And as a matter of military culture, the class next up for demob the "makaronchiki" used the greenies to do any actual work that was required. That's the system the Russers inherited, and that Putin's stuck with reforming. It hasn't been done yet, and may never be.
The incompetence was typically, horrifyingly Russian. With all of the nation's top anti-terror and special ops units on the scene, no one took charge. Units failed to coordinate with each other. No one took control of the local civilians. No one had a reaction plan in case things spun out of control. And when that terrorist bomb went off, the result was the chaos that Russians simultaneously dread, expect and bitterly accept. As the Russians themselves would put it, Beslan was a polni bardak. Which translates politely as an "utter bordello."
On the other hand, the very best troops in the world haven't been trained to rescue 1300 people from a school occupied by terrs when the bombs start going off and the shooting starts without warning.
What should concern us most as democracy advocates isn't that Putin's pulling off his sleight of hand to extend his power. What should appall us is that the great majority of the Russians shrug it off. Where are the pro-democracy demonstrations? Where is the hunger for freedom that supposedly lives in every human breast? Where is the courage?
I dunno. But I can see where the desire to be secure in one's home is, and the desire to have one's family protected is.
The Russers are enjoying more personal freedom individual liberty than they've ever had, and some segments of the population veered unerringly toward license. They spent 75 years harping on the evils of plutocracy. When they stopped being commies they "knew" how plutocrats acted, so the commies became what they thought plutocrats were. And the government still managed to remain democratic, with dozens of parties, ranging from liberals to nutjobs to commies. Places like the Russian Far East made Chicago at its worst look tame. It was the threat to the man in the street, or more specifically to his kids, that brought about the tightening.
The truth is that Putin's initial reforms were necessary after the madcap corruption of the Yeltsin years.
I just said that, I think...
Just as Boris Yeltsin had been necessary to put the old regime's apparatchiki in their place, a man like Putin had to follow to prevent Russia from becoming nothing but the scene of the wildest looting orgy in history. But, like so many "presidents" around the world, Putin has become addicted to power. As a former KGB officer, it was probably too much to expect him to put much trust in democracy.
Bush the Elder used to be head of the CIA. I guess it was too much to expect him to put much trust in democracy. Putin's revulsion isn't toward democracy, though it's not something he loves more than chocolate. His revulsion is toward disorder.
On top of Russia's other problems, from the thorough ineptitude of its military and security forces to its abysmal health conditions, the country suffers from another terrible blight that has ravaged one developing country after another: Natural-resource wealth. The "unearned" income from Russia's oil and gas reserves has not only financed Putin's consolidation of power, it has allowed Russia to avoid difficult choices, serious structural reforms and plain, old hard work. So the old question returns: Whither Russia? The answer appears to be that Russians are determined to be Russians. We will be allies in the War on Terror but must be wary of the Kremlin's brutal excesses. Beyond that, we cannot force democracy on the Russian people if they are not willing to fight for it themselves.
Posted by: tipper ||
09/21/2004 4:54:50 AM ||
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The incompetence was typically, horrifyingly Russian. With all of the nationâs top anti-terror and special ops units on the scene, no one took charge. Units failed to coordinate with each other. No one took control of the local civilians. No one had a reaction plan in case things spun out of control.
Though that may be true, it seems a bit disingenuous. Little could have been done to achieve a happy ending here...even if our own highly trained units were on site.
Seems to me that Peter's is making a big stretch to say they don't want democracy. I think the Russians just realize that terror is a more immediate threat.
#4
Editors, troll cleanup on Aisle _1_, Repeat, Aisle _1_... it's screwing up the screen formatting.
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
09/21/2004 8:38 Comments ||
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#5
Actually, democracy is unlimited rule of the majority.
The best government system is the American form, a republic limited by its constitution and by a bill of individual rights. The USA is not a democracy -- and that should tell you something about the party that calls itself "democrat". The Founding Fathers very explicitly fought to create a Republic, not a Democracy.
#6
Would you be suprised that most Russians say that they had a better life under communism in the Soviet Union? And they would be right.
So why the surprise when these people now show little enthusiasm for democracy and capitalism?
It's easier to sing the praises of democracy and capitalism when you've had it for 300 years.
The big challenge is to convince them that it is better to stay the course of democracy and capitalism then to revert at some point to the old days. And that won't be easy.
The good news is, the kids (not to mention the nouveau rich) born since 1991 have had a taste of what democracy and capitalism can offer, and one hopes that they will not want to give it up easily.
Posted by: Rafael ||
09/21/2004 12:41 Comments ||
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The USA is not a democracy...
I have never understood people who make this argument. Technically you're correct, but it's a distinction without a difference, in this context. You're arguing that somehow inherent in the definition of "republic" is a Constitution and respect for individual rights. This is not true.
#8
Russia is a failing state propped up by $40.bbl oil. When the oil price comes back down to earth, the Russian economy will collapse and the state will be revealed yet again as a shambles.
Think of Russia as Pakistan North, only with white faces and black shirts. The only really functioning part of Russia is the Moscow consumer economy, which gives you an idea of the inevitable reversion of the country into a reasonably functioning, westernized Muscovite core surrounded by bandit-controlled fiefdoms, and with a Chinese-dominated Far East region.
#9
Russia today is not capitalist. First, the banking system is a joke. There's almost no commercial lending, and nearly all of Russian savings are either spirited abroad or kept under mattresses. So the prime function of a capitalist economy-- channelling savings into investments in order to realize returns and expand production and wealth-- barely exists.
Also consider that those 30 or so bandits who, in addition to the uber-thief Khodorkovsky, have locked up about 40% of Russia's wealth, are primarily asset-strippers. Rockefeller and his ilk invested in the US. Despite their brutality, they also created industries and markets and efficient, state-of-the-art businesses. Khodorkovsky, Berezovsky, Fridman et al are merely channelling the cash flows from decrepit old former state resource companies into offshore accounts or playthings like soccer clubs.
This has nothing to do with capitalism; it's just another version of that grand game played in every failing, centralized nation: arbitrage the state. Whether the commodity in question is debt or oil or timber or municipal water supplies, the goal is to buy cheap from the state and sell dear on the private (usually overseas) market. Hardly capitalism.
#10
One comment I heard when I left Latvia haunted me. It is not unrelated to this thread.
When I asked Latvians and Russians living in Latvia how they felt about their future now that they were free of Soviet interference, I heard the following sentiments:
"We are disappointed that the West has ignored us. We need guidance on how to make our new countries strong and free, but when we seek counsel, there isn't anybody there. All the great intellects are gone already; who will guide us?"
In this anti-American international climate, the problem only worsens, because our counsel is not valued. That's the world's loss.
#11
Hey, Fred, I just read your interspersed comments re: the Russian Army.
I have a question... I've read elsewhere that part of the problem with the Russian Army is that they don't have as many non-commissioned officers as a comparable western army, and those they have don't have the authority those in (for instance) the US army have. Is this true?
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
09/21/2004 16:27 Comments ||
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A hundred years later the Greeks were studying Macedonian.
Oy, vey. That last sentence brings me the historical shivers. Even if you believe Ancient Macedonians not to have been a Greek but rather a foreign tribe, one sure thing is that the ruling dynasty atleast (including, *especially*, Alexander the Great) were a great Hellenizing force promoting the *Greek* language everywhere they went or conquered.
Yeah, I know that was not your point, but perhaps it should have been: If it hadn't been for what Athenean democracy had created in the period before the Macedonian conquest, then perhaps the kings of Macedonia wouldn't have loved Greek culture so much. Perhaps in that case the Macedonian conquests *would* have destroyed Greek civilisation rather than spread it across Asia. If it hadn't been for that culture, perhaps the Romans would have likewise destroyed Greek civilisation rather than adopt it. Perhaps Athens would have been now been considered as forgotten and trivial as minor Celtic or Iberian tribes that the Romans likewise conquered. *If* it hadn't been for its democracy.
Now, Putin is creating an unloveable system, such as the Soviets had created before him, and the Czars had created before *them*. Doesn't he realize that unloveable systems only seem hard until they shatter in their entirety to be blown away in the wind?
Yeah, personal freedom rates above democracy. But democracy has so far been the best guarantee *against* violations of personal freedom. When democracy has been thoroughly destroyed unshielded it will be far too late to start building barracades towards the protection of liberty.
#13
If the distinction makes no difference, Angie, then why, when asked what kind of government the Cosntitutional Convention had created, did Benjamin Franklin reply, "A Republic if you can keep it." instead of a Democracy, if you can keep it?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/21/2004 18:05 Comments ||
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#14
Perhaps Athens would have been now been considered as forgotten and trivial as minor Celtic or Iberian tribes that the Romans likewise conquered. *If* it hadn't been for its democracy.
#15
Aris, I was unaware that Alexander spread Greek _democracy_ throughout his empire; he seemed to be a fairly strong believer in dictatorship, and his empire broke up into a bunch of monarchies founded by his generals (for instance, Ptolemaic Egypt).
I also thought that Byzantium was only as democratic as the late Roman Empire in general (i.e. not very, with hereditary classes and professions and the like).
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
09/21/2004 18:13 Comments ||
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jules: "We are disappointed that the West has ignored us. We need guidance on how to make our new countries strong and free, but when we seek counsel, there isn't anybody there. All the great intellects are gone already; who will guide us?" In this anti-American international climate, the problem only worsens, because our counsel is not valued.
No great loss. The counsel provided by US economists in the early years of eastern Europe's piratizations did little good. Latvia's problems are primarily due to corruption, only secondarily due to the Russian-Latvian and other political divides. Estonia points the way forward: reform the state, reduce the state, focus on export-oriented services.
#17
I didn't say he spread Greek *democracy*. But both Sparta and Athens were conquered by Alexander, and yet it was certainly the Attican, not the Lacedemonean dialect that lasted, the Attican dialect from which later derived the language of the gospels. All the plays, all the art, pretty much *everything* that lasted is Athenean, not Spartan.
Given how Sparta was even victorious over Athens in the war between them, doesn't that tell you something about civilisational value?
Byzantium was probably even less democratic than the late Roman Empire. But by that time we've probably already reached the true end of Ancient Greek civilisation. I described how Athenean culture survived Alexander and Rome, while Sparta's perished -- I didn't claim it was immortal.
#18
The problem in Russia is there's no history of a middle class. There are only those in power and everyone else. The middle class is ESSENTIAL for any form of representative government to work. There has to be a reason to want to acquire and keep wealth, there has to be some way to generate that wealth for the majority of the people, and there has to be some way of acquiring power other than by force. This is all done in our nation (and in most nations where freedom prospers) by a middle class. Where the middle class is weak, governments are more powerful. Only when people are given the freedom to create wealth will they actually produce more than the minimum required of them. Until Russia develops a functioning middle class, it's going to be a muddle.
As for the difference between a pure democracy and a Republic, one has to revert back to the old story that a democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. The purpose of a Republic is to control the excesses of pure democracy, while still operating within the guidelines of democratic government. That means the checks and balances inherent in our Constitution, a written "Bill of Rights" that specifically prohibit government from doing certain things (Don't we wish it would actually adhere to it!), and an inherent trust in the rule of Law, rather than Power. The comments of several people here today underscore how poorly that idea is being taught today, and how few people understand what our government is supposed to be about. That's especially true of our government "officials".
Russia can adapt any form of government it chooses, but until there is a middle class with actual financial power to force change, it won't happen, and Russia and all its former states will fail to create a lasting government. The lack of a middle class is what causes all the failures of government in the Middle East and Latin America. There isn't enough wealth spread through the central portion of the economy to provide enough political power to secure that wealth and expand upon it. Until there is a viable middle class, and it has enough power in the form of wealth generation, the prospects of stable government anywhere in the world is minimal.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
09/21/2004 18:36 Comments ||
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#20
... I've read elsewhere that part of the problem with the Russian Army is that they don't have as many non-commissioned officers as a comparable western army, and those they have don't have the authority those in (for instance) the US army have.
Essentially correct. Commissioned officers in the Russian military perform the leadership and other duties that a non-com normally does in other, Western, militaries (That situation is also found is many Arab militaries as well).
The correct way to go from a total state to a capitilist one is to follow the japanese example of creating an economic zone, rather than do it all at once. Democracy can follow in its footsteps, and you liberalize the country in chunks.
It gives you an opportunity to design the appropriate controls without the upset that russia has now.
Sep 21, 5:04 PM (ET) By Patricia Wilson
One speech may not a campaign make, but John Kerry and his top advisers are pumped up and in "a fighting mood" after the Democratic candidate's aggressive attack on President Bush's handling of Iraq. Hell yeah! I'm still pumped from using the mouse! Bring it on! But not the swiftvets please?
The Massachusetts senator, lagging in opinion polls six weeks before the Nov. 2 election, seems to have kicked a habit of pulling his punches at the last minute and showed a new willingness to mix it up with his Republican rival.
"These guys, they've got me in a fighting mood," Kerry said to roars of approval at a reception in New York on Monday night.
Campaigning in Florida on Tuesday, he openly acknowledged his hard-hitting approach.
"I know it sounds sort of tough, I know it does," he told a town hall meeting in Jacksonville. "I wish it didn't, but the fact is ... on Iraq, they haven't leveled with the American people and we deserve a president of the United States who looks Americans in the eye and tells you that the americans are over there killing civilians, raping livestock for fun and committing all sorts of war crimes? (oh wait... thats the arabs in Sudan. Fire that speechwriter!)
the truth."
Several Democrats outside the campaign called Kerry's speech in New York a turning point that would force Bush to play defense.
"My opponent has taken so many different positions on Iraq that his statements are hardly credible at all," Bush told reporters in New York where he addressed the United Nations. Translation: He's as credible as Dan Rather.....
"He rocked, didn't he," the candidate's wife Teresa Heinz Kerry declared. "There's a time for everything and it was time for him to take off the gloves." But enough about last night Teresa - uh please! We really don't want to know. What about today?
"I think people responded to the fact that someone finally told the hard truths," the aide said. "The White House's weak response was telling. They didn't challenge a single assertion he made about the situation on the ground." Did he make any specific charges? I didn't notice....
#2
God, Teresa! Please don't take off the gloves!!!
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
09/21/2004 21:50 Comments ||
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#3
If he fights like he threw that limp-wristed girly-man pitch in Boston, Bush gonna tko that punk ass in the first round. Man, it gonna take all two hospitals to put that huge jaw ina sling.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
09/21/2004 19:49 ||
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But now that youâre the Democrat nominee, Iâve been re-energized. Your socialist leanings, spine-snapping indecision and penchant for lies have pushed me so firmly back into the Bush camp that Iâm risking all sorts of vandalism against my property and even my person (that is, if I was three years old and surrounded by your supporters, anyway) by displaying George W. Bush bumper stickers, buttons and yard signs. Yes, John, you have renewed my zeal for the Republican party. You didnât do it alone, though. You had help!
Dang, Kirsten, don't hold back! Tell us what you really think. :-p
From a interview in Outdoor Life magazine with both Bush and Kerry: Outdoor Life: Are you a gun owner? If so, what is your favorite gun?
Bush: Yes. My favorite gun is a Weatherby, Athena 20-gauge (over/under).
Kerry: My favorite gun is the M-16 that saved my life and that of my crew in Vietnam. I don't own one of those now, but one of my reminders of my service is a Communist Chinese assault rifle.
1. Is there no question that does not remind Johnny of Vietnam?
2. Do the Massachusetts cop's know you got a assault rifle?
3. Didn't you just slam Bush for not renewing the ban on your assault rifle?
Posted by: Steve ||
09/21/2004 6:58:14 PM ||
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Oh Gawd, Kerry is such a pompous jackass...
On the same page there is some eco-propoganda.
Yes that is one aspect, but also, though not a hunter myself, my uncle who was a hunter, taught me the joys of roast venison...
Thanks Uncle Jim.
He threw back the big fish but kept the little ones?
Does that say something about him being a bully, picking on little fish, but respecting the big ones?
Huh?
Where's that save a hamster spirit?
I couldn't read any more. I was about to lose my lunch...
#2
Geez, I don't even hunt or fish, and I know this clown's blowing smoke out his ass.
What must actual sportsmen who read this drivel think?
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
09/21/2004 19:56 Comments ||
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#3
If Kerry actually brought a working Chinese AK-47 back, he's violating the law. Military issue AK's are classified as machine guns, since they can discharge the whole magazine with one pull of the trigger.
#4
I think there was a Col that received a court marshal for trying to smuggle a trophy AK-47, taken in Grenada, back into the US.
Don't know why Kerry thought the readers of Outdoor Life would be interested in anything other than sport rifles. This reminds me of the famous comparison between Gore and Bush with respect to whether they liked to watch baseball in domed stadiums. Bush said he like to watch baseball outdoors. Gore answered with an extended summation of the history of domed stadiums - and never stated a preference. I don't know whether the Q&A was actual or a fictitious but accurate illustration of the difference between teh two men.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/21/2004 21:24 Comments ||
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#5
Not all AK's fire as machine guns do, with one pull of the trigger. Most of them are semi-automatics. The M-16 can fire semi-auto or full auto depending on where a selector switch is positioned. The same goes for the AK. Not all M-16's have the selector switch and not all AK's do either. Early on in Viet Nam the souvenier rule was still in effect. A soldier could bring back even an AK 47. In '68 there were a lot of SKS's used by the Viet Cong. These were only semi-auto.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
09/21/2004 21:34 Comments ||
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#6
the criteria for assault weapons as my (voted-against) Senator Feinstein proposed it could be boiled down to "scary guns" - semi-auto AK's make Dianne wet herself, so they qualify
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/21/2004 22:04 Comments ||
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Spotlight Hits Behind-The-Scenes CBS Producer for Her Role in National Guard Documents Flap
The Associated Press
NEW YORK Sept. 21, 2004 — The fallout from CBS's doomed story about President Bush's National Guard service most endangers a woman few viewers know but who played a key role in two of the biggest television stories of the year.
Abu Gharib was a few nitwits reported as endemic. Why?
Mary Mapes, a veteran producer at CBS News, reported most of the National Guard story, including obtaining the documents CBS now says it can't authenticate. She also passed on the phone number of her source, former Texas National Guard officer Bill Burkett, to the Kerry campaign.
Joel Lockhart, check your voice mail....pronto!
Mapes, 48, was described by colleagues on Tuesday as a dogged and talented journalist who made no secret of her liberal political beliefs.
Then she should be put near anything breakable...
. . .
It's particularly damaging when news coverage is being scrutinized by both sides of a bitter political divide, said Frank Sesno, former CNN Washington bureau chief and professor at George Mason University. Even before this story, Rather and CBS News were targets of groups concerned about an anti-Republican bias in the media.
Someone out to get Danny Boy? Really?
The Lockhart contact "is going to cast more doubt on not just the practices, but the motives behind the story," Sesno said.
"She's done many, many solid stories in her career," Fager said. "How this went so horribly wrong is a mystery to many of us and I like forward to hearing the details."
Frank Sesno : I like juicy gossip, just like the next guy!
#1
Oh goodie she turned a low level MP diciplinary problem into a INTERNATIONAL incident. Am I the only that see that as a bad thing? She didn't break the story, the soldiers were already incustody, and the prisoners were no longer beiong abused. The publishing of the photos only inflamed the Arab street and probably cost us some lives (Civilian and Military). Good going Mary! Hope you win a pulitzer and then you can shove it up your HUGE arse!
#3
Tell that to the families of the people who were killed as a result of her inflaming the 'arab street'. Wasn't someone beheaded in Iraq because of her 'breaking story'?
#5
Turns out Mapes has done this sort of thing before.
John Carlson, KVI radio, Seattle is reporting tonight. Seems she produced a fraudulant eyewitness in a racially charged drug bust gone bad to pump a story about how cops were tareting black drug dealers. The cops broke down the door of a suspected crack dealer when he didn't open up. They shot the guy when he appeared to point, or was holding an object that turned ou to be a remote control. She was a KVI reporter at the time and KVI was hyping the incident for a television expose.
Turns out the cops had along another reporter who had met the eyewitness after the incident and knew the guy was a johnny come lately who had been your typical lookydat.
This bitch Mapes would have let the cops fry, seen her city racially on edge of a riot so she could get a check mark on her ticket.
Posted by: Dan Rather ||
09/21/2004 20:55 Comments ||
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#8
Abu Gharib was an abomination and deserved attention. At a certain point the media tried to parlay the failure of a single command into dissmissal for the Sec Def, resignation of the President and scrapping of the WOT. Stopping the WOT before it runs to completion is a far bigger abomination. Anyone who thinks different snoozed through the Beslan tragedy.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/21/2004 21:17 Comments ||
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#9
The MSM are like phirannas. Mapes gets on the ropes and it is a feeding frenzy, heh heh. Fun to watch. Vengeance is mine!!! Arrrrgggghhhhhh!
Bwahahahahahahahaha!
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
09/21/2004 21:55 Comments ||
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#10
"Good evening. Those are the headlines, now the rumors behind the news..."
#12
Another candidate for exile/swap with the EU. Again, the deal is, we swap DU/Mikey Maroon idiotarians to Europe and they give us their best and brightest scientists and tech entrepreneurs.
Hat tips to Hugh Hewitt (Radio) & DRUDGE (his site)
Gore campaign rejected allegations similar to CBS report, former campaign chief says
- MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer
Tuesday, September 21, 2004
(09-21) 15:54 PDT WASHINGTON (AP) --
Former Vice President Al Gore's presidential campaign heard but did not pursue allegations about George W. Bush's Air National Guard service, similar to the information in discredited documents aired by CBS News this month, a former campaign official said Tuesday.
Tony Coelho, who ran the campaign for several months in 2000, said he did not follow up on the claims because they were not serious enough to demand further attention.
How could they let themselves be snookered?
"Of everyone I talked to, no one had anything that rose to the level that we should get ourselves into," Coelho said.
. . . (snip rehash)
Coelho said he remembered taking phone calls in 2000 from several Texans with allegations about Bush's Guard service. He said he did not remember if any were from Burkett, a former Texas Army National Guard officer and longtime Bush critic.
" I Can't remember getting a call from Burkett, specifically" = I won't pile on Dan Rather
"I never felt there was anything substantive for us to try to deal with or not, so we never pursued it," Coelho said. "We never had any documents given to us. That would have been something different. We would have had to check it out."
We weren't duped. Al Gore, Inventor of the internet say the superscript right away!!! But we won't admit to seeing documents. We don't want to pile on Dan Rather...
Excerpted from looooong USA Today story...
...In interviews in recent days with USA TODAY, both in person and on the phone, Burkett said he had merely been a conduit for the records purported to be from the private files of Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, one of Bush's former Guard commanders, who died in 1984. Burkett admitted lying to USA TODAY about the source of the documents but said he did not fabricate the papers.
"No, no! Certainly not!"
In earlier conversations with USA TODAY, Burkett had identified the source of the documents as George Conn, a former Texas National Guard colleague who works for the U.S. Army in Europe. Burkett now says he made up the story about Conn's involvement to divert attention from himself and the woman he now says provided him with the documents. He told USA TODAY that he also lied to CBS.
Ahah! Somehow there always has to be a woman involved! A mysterious lady, wearing a veil, perhaps?
Burkett now maintains that the source of the papers was Lucy Ramirez, who he says phoned him from Houston in March to offer the documents.
"M'sieur Burkett! The documents! I must geeve them to you for safekeeping! You will know what to do with them!"
USA TODAY has been unable to locate Ramirez.
"Miss Ramirez regrets
She's unable to lunch today,
Mister!"
When Burkett gave copies of the documents to USA TODAY, it was on the understanding that his identity would not be disclosed. USA TODAY honored that agreement until Burkett waived his confidentiality Monday. "I didn't forge anything," Burkett said. "I didn't fake any documents. The only thing I've done here is to transfer documents from people I thought were real to people I thought were real. And that has been the limitation of my role. I may have been a patsy."
"Yeah! Dat's it! I been set up! Framed, I tells yez! Why, dat floozy!"
The White House on Monday welcomed the network's admission but said it "raised more questions than answers." Communications director Dan Bartlett called for an investigation that includes "whether the president's political opponents were behind these attacks." He added, "Since CBS News and USA TODAY had both obtained these forged documents, we now urge them to lead the way in finding the truth."
Y'mean, like, "Forge ahead"?
White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush was told of the CBS statement as he flew to Derry, N.H., for a campaign appearance. McClellan said Burkett "is not an unimpeachable source as was previously claimed. Bill Burkett is a source who has been discredited, and so this raises a lot of questions."
... most of which are easily answerable.
Burkett's own doubts about the authenticity of the memos and his inability to supply evidence to show that Ramirez exists also raise questions about his credibility. Burkett has strong anti-Bush views. He has posted comments on Internet Web sites critical of Bush and has chastised Sen. John Kerry's organization for what he called its inept campaign.
Ummm... I think he just ended up making it look even more inept. When was the last time a campaign got caught up in a forged document scandal?
Burkett's emotions varied widely in the interviews. One session ended when Burkett suffered a violent seizure and collapsed in his chair.
"Nurse! Quick! He's doing it again!"
Earlier, he said he was coming forward now to explain what he had done and why to try to salvage his reputation.
Too late, bub. There went your ambassadorship...
In the past week, Burkett was named by many news reports as the probable source of the documents. "It's time," Burkett said. "I'm tired of me being the bad guy. I'm tired of losing everything we've got," a reference to his financial and health struggles since he left the Guard. Turning to his wife, Nicki, he said: "We've lost it all, baby. We've lost everything." Sitting in a rocking chair in his weathered ranch house south of Baird, Texas, Burkett recounted his continuing efforts — beginning before he was kicked out of discharged from the Texas Army National Guard in 1998 — to clean up what he saw as Guard corruption and mismanagement.
"Liars and thieves, Nicki! They're all liars and thieves!"
"Yes, dear. Would you like another pill?"
He said that activity led to a telephone call in March from Ramirez and her offer to provide documents damaging to President Bush. Burkett said Ramirez told him she had seen him the previous month in an appearance on the MSNBC program Hardball, discussing the controversy over whether Bush fulfilled all his obligations for service in the Texas Air Guard during the early 1970s. "There is something I have that I want to make sure gets out," he quoted her as saying.
"M'sieur Burkett! The documents! I must leave zem wiz you!"
He said Ramirez claimed to possess Killian's "correspondence file," which would prove Burkett's allegations that Bush had problems as a Guard fighter pilot. Burkett said he arranged to get the documents during a trip to Houston for a livestock show in March.
"Awright, baby! I'll be at the livestock show in Houston on the 29th. But they better be good!"
"Zey will be good, M'sieur Burkett! Wear a red rose in your cowboy hat so you weel be recognized!"
"I thought you saw me on the Chris Matthews show?"
But instead of being met at the show by Ramirez, he was approached by a man who asked for Burkett, handed him an envelope and quickly left, Burkett recounted. "I didn't even ask any questions," Burkett said. "Should I have? Yes. Maybe I was duped. I never really even considered that."
"Yes. He was a small man, maybe 18 inches tall, I'd say. He said nothing. Just stuffed the documents into the top of my cowboy boot and left!"
Humm, look anything like Sandy Burger?
By Monday, USA TODAY had not been able to locate Ramirez or verify other details of Burkett's account.
Where in the World Is Carmen Sandiego Lucy Ramirez?
"[RING!] USA Today calling! You know anybody named Ramirez?"
"This is Texas. We got mebbe 3 million people named Ramirez. Which one y'want?"
"Lucy Ramirez."
"Oh, well. That's diff'rent. Half that three million's men. That leaves a million and a half women. Half o' them are named Lucy. Pick the one y'want."
Three people who worked with Killian in the early 1970s said they don't recognize her name. Burkett promised to provide telephone records that would verify his calls to Ramirez, but he had not done so by Monday night.
"I... uhhh... musta left 'em in my other pants."
An acquaintance of Burkett, who he said could corroborate his story, said he was at the livestock show on March 3. The woman, who asked that her name not be used, said Burkett asked if he could put papers inside a box she had at the livestock show. Often, she said, friends ask to store papers in her box that verify their purchases at the livestock auction. She said she did not know the nature of the papers Burkett gave her, and he did not say anything about them.
"No. No. Can't say that I did see any leprechauns. Sorry."
Posted by: Fred ||
09/21/2004 4:49:56 PM ||
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#1
So, how soon will Burkett get charged w/the tampering/forging of official military records which is a federal offense IIRC?
#8
I didn't think it was possible for CBS to look any more stupid, but this pushes back the boundaries into previously unknown realms of institutional retardation.
It seems likely that Burkett was not willing to vouch for the documents himself, and Blather apparently STILL accepted them as authentic. It's a fallacy to appeal to authority, as in "unimpeachable source," but downright retarded to accept the authority of an unknown source.
#9
"After I left the livestock show these 3 German guys came up to me and wanted to know where the jade carving of a mockingbird was. They said Lucy must have given it to me. It's the color of a Margueritta and is called "The Tequila Mockingbird". I'm going to reveal where it is the next time I see Dan Rather". Burkett
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
09/21/2004 19:24 Comments ||
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#10
Lucy, don't you know that the needs of two people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world? Now get on that plane while I hold the gun on Louey here. We'll always have Paris.
Louey, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful relationship.
Posted by: Bill Burkett ||
09/21/2004 19:26 Comments ||
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#11
You people don't understand nuance.
First you look the pitcher in the eye and wiggle the bat, step out once or twice a show some cheap copies, step back in the box and pucker, then at the last minute show a bunt.
#15
"Loose Lucy" - Grateful Dead - "Live from the Mars hotel" album (72?)
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/21/2004 20:13 Comments ||
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#16
..Has anyone noticed that somebody trying to fake out CBS could only think of someone named 'Lucy'?
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
09/21/2004 21:43 Comments ||
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#17
Mike, you're not suggesting that Lucy got the memos from Ricky? A Cuban connection?
Posted by: Matt ||
09/21/2004 21:50 Comments ||
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#18
Actually the first name, Lucy, reminded me of the leader of the Soviet spy ring in Bern during WWII, Rudolph Rossler. Lucie was the codename of Stalin's main German agent, who filtered German High Command information to Moscow. The guy who warned Stalin about Operation Citdel.
#19
referred to in "Last Citadel" - the new paperback novel about the battle of Kursk, I was plugging it earlier :-)
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/21/2004 22:05 Comments ||
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#20
There is another part later on that is pure theater. Check it out:
"As Burkett told his story, he appeared overwrought, fatigued and unsure of how to deal with what he characterized as the extreme pressure of national attention. He spoke of being under a severe strain.
At one point Thursday, as he spoke on a cell phone to his San Antonio lawyer, David Van Os, Burkett's voice froze in midsentence and his body convulsed in a violent seizure. He was helped to the floor and then to a couch. He has had such bouts sporadically over the past several months, but this one was worse, his wife said.
The next day, Burkett resumed the interview. He lay on the couch with a wet cloth on his forehead."
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/21/2004 22:11 Comments ||
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#21
Bill Burkett: Scarlett O'Hara
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/21/2004 22:12 Comments ||
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#22
This clown gives "girlie-men" a bad name.
Wotta maroon.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
09/21/2004 22:22 Comments ||
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#23
careful or he'll get the "Vince Foster" treatment
/sarcasm
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/21/2004 22:27 Comments ||
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#24
"I'd seen her somewhere before, Tangiers maybe..."
Sum-up by John Goldberg; click the link for the actual thread.Some folks at the Democratic Underground are planning on leaving the country. Apparently Rather's capitulation was too much. I particularly like the poster #7 who thinks staying behind would make him/her akin to a Jew left behind in Nazi Germany.
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
09/21/2004 2:00:17 PM ||
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#1
Some days everything just seems to be going right.
Posted by: Matt ||
09/21/2004 17:04 Comments ||
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#3
trouble is, like Alec Baldwin, Barbra Streisand, et al, they never follow through on their promises. They are Lying....just stamping their feet like immature teens, threatening to run away, and when you say: "fine, don't let the passport door hit ya in the ass" they reneg and go to their rooms to sulk
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/21/2004 17:49 Comments ||
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#4
This little pageant is meant to set the stage for when they heroically decide that, "no - I must stay. My country needs me, so I must put my own needs behind me and sacrifice" - wait for it - "for the greater good."
#7
I like the poster who talks about going to canada because his/her kids are almost draft age.........lmao!! Only on the DU where alternate reality is the norm.....what a bunch of whiny pussies.....can't believe these fuckers are my fellow countrymen - sickening but par for the course.
Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom ||
09/21/2004 06:49 ||
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#1
All this is comming back to the DNC and Kerry Camp.
Contascts were made while CBS were making this a story. Rathergate is just the tip of the iceburg.
#2
What's good is that it is Lockhart. If it had been Cleland, he'd have had sympathy. As though being in a wheelchair would give him a pass on netharious behaviour.
Lockhart has the "Eau de Clinton" aura, and is a known master bullshitter. A believable and appropriate villian. Does he like orange prison jumpsuits?
#3
Yes it comes back to the DNC but the link is weak at this point. No doubt the DNC wanted the story to come out, but it was CBS that arranged a meet for Burkett and Lockhart. This was a condition of Burkettâs in order for CBS to get the documents. Burkett is a delusional and hates Bush for some reason. If they can prove some coordination between CBS and the DNC ala operation âFortunate Sonâ CBS is toast and so should some people at the DNC. What I want is the LLL to finally admit that this is non story and never was. So far every official document shows that Bush enlisted, trained, served, and was discharged honorably. After five years of âinvestigative journalismâ they have hearsay and forged document. Call me silly but doesnât that sort of prove that they supposed story never was?
#4
CS - you hit on what I think is the funniest part of this whole story. That the LLL actually was sooo excited about this non-story in the first place.
We all know Bush is a "fortunate son". So is Kerry. The swift boat stuff is really damaging because it told things about Kerry's mindset that were really ugly. The TANG story didn't reveal anything about Bush we didn't already know. We already knew, we already didn't care.
That they were willing to stoop to such lows and take such a big chance on this is the biggest slapper of all.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/21/2004 03:32 ||
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#1
Zell is talking about the clothing challenged emperor Kerry of the Democraticus Ludicrous.
Often he who speaks the truth now, gets vindicated later.
But as to Jimmuh. A 30 year leftward drift so that his slowly dying brain cells can't remember what it was like not to be a leftist. My Aunt lived in Georgia at the time of him being governor, and liked him. Despite our protestations, she voted for him for Prez in 1976.
From here the record of John Kerry becomes unclear and the mainstream press won't demand that John Kerry sign a Department of Defense (DOD) form 180 that would release all of his military records. Records already released by his campaign are confusing. There are indications that he was honorably discharged on January 970, February1978, July 13, 1978,and even lately on March , 2001. Why the confusion on a relatively simple service event.
Could it be that John Kerry received a less than honorable discharge in the early 70's because of his anti-war activities, and then was pardoned for those activities when then President Jimmy Carter on January 21, 1978 ( Proclamation 4483) granted a full, complete, and unconditional pardon to all persons who may have committed any offense between August 4, 1964 and March 28, 1973 in violation of the Military Selective Service Act or any rule or regulation promulgated there under?
Did John Kerry request that his service be granted an honorable discharge and it was finally granted in 1978? Only a complete release of his military records will show what actually happened during this period. And to date John Kerry has refused to sign the necessary DOD form 180 which would allow this release. If the Democratic Party, the mainstream press, and the Bush critics are going to demand--as they do on almost a daily basis--that George Bush release all of his records, shouldn't they do the same for John Kerry?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/21/2004 3:27:37 AM ||
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#1
Dishonorable discharge?
No. Not likley.
GENERAL discharge "under other than honorable conditions", that could be it. And he had it upgraded later to Honorable.
#5
My theory is the first purple heart wound was pretty minor and would make him look like a sissy-boy crying to go home from a wound that didn't require any hospital time and which the first doctor refused to sign the purple heart paperwork for instead of the hero image he's been trying to construct.
#6
I think Fred is right, and the problem is close to home. Remember Clinton was known to have VD (Herpes) and Nurse Fuzzy-Wuzzy would wield a mean scalpel, even if it was a past indiscretion. (Remember her threat to Heinz?)
"Persuant to the order of the President, the discharge of John Forbes Kerry is hereby upgraded to Honorable. The fact he met with representatives of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, in Paris, France, has been deemed irrelevant by the President, therefore his recorded discharge shall now be declared to be Honorable
Signed,
Lt. Bill Burkett,
Texas Army National Guard"
#9
CH...OUCH! That's nothing to clap about! I bet Kerry is trying hide the fact taht he inpregnated serveral Vietnamese maidens. FYI NSU (and most STDs) is allowed in the disability calculation for benifits. Find out if Kerry is a disabled vet and you'll have a new line of investigation. If he hasn't sign a 180 by now he never will. There has to be something damning in them or he would have done so when he began his quest for the White House.
#10
There are hundreds of pages missing. I think Kerry could easily get away with medical records pertaining only to the awards issued.
I think that his fitness reports say he was "unfit for command" - thus the title of the book. There are those alive who would have seen it and would know if indeed that was the case. They'd remember too - after his treachery upon return home.
Although it is intriguing to wonder about the terms of his discharge -seeing as how there are questions about his actual discharge date.
As far as his awards go...Silver/Bronze Star. His record would show who submitted the original paperwork recommending the awards. By 1969, the military was looking for "hero's" and the decorations were flowing. Not that they weren't earned, because a lot on deserving individuals were honored.
That said, the awards branch was flooded with requests...and if a recommendation had merit...it moved along quickly, often without regard to where it originated. Thus, months after Kerry was safe at home, an award recommendation is drafted by "someone" and approved. I seem to recall that Kerry's assignment upon his return to the states was as military aide to an Admiral. An assignment that could easily source a recommendation with the proper horse power.
As far as the Bronze Star...that was the usual "end of tour" award for an officer. NBD!
Now the Purple Heart option. Whether he rated them or not...once his command realized Kerry was:
1. More trouble than he was worth.
2. A hazard to himself and others in the command.
3. And, unfit for command
Permitting him to depart on the 3rd PH came as a God send!
#14
Even though I've been very curious about this detail, I've not bothered to lift a finger to research the dates. If not, then no big deal except him being a pinko commie. But if he was still in the USN, reserves or whatever, when he snuck over to Paris to kneel before the Yellow God of the 60's Left, that would be.. very bad.
#16
All of this speculation is the direct result of Kerry not releasing his records. Even non-conspiracy types like myself have to wonder what is the files if he is steadfastly refusing to release them. It can't be a privacy issue (although his personal medical records and Teresa's tax returns have also not been released) since he keeps calling for Bush's records to be made public (which they have). I thought for awhile it might be rope-a-dope on Kerry's part but the election is too close now and Bush is(apparently) pulling away so the release of clean records wouldn't help Kerry much.
#1
The paradox of Bush Derangement Syndrome: gibbering subhuman or nefarious world-conquering mastermind?
It's the equivalent of putting an LLL in a round room and telling it to piss in the corner.
#3
"Forged military documents are a criminal issue."
-very true, I believe it's a class (III?) felony in Texas. I wonder why no one's brought this up? Forging any dod documents is a crime and should be prosecuted as such. The DOJ should be investigating this stunt and hold whomever responsible.
This article is chock full of lies to cover lies. Burkett comes out looking like a man that is DEEPLY disturbed and probably is suffering from schizophrenia. He claimed to be in a guard office over the passed 30 odd years just when critical information was talked about concerning President Bush. His Forrest Gump like existence extended into this election where he just happen to acquire documents that support the claim that the President was a slacker in the guard. You have to read this article to understand how CBS HAD to be complicit because the source never had a ounce of credibility.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge ||
09/21/2004 7:17:53 AM ||
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(CS - the link in this is bad....)
What pisses me off and is completely unnoticed is that, if it weren't for blogs, CBS/Burkett/Kerry would have gotten away with it. If it weren't for blogs and the checking and discussion that is done this would have been completely unnoticed! Yet they are not getting the credit for uncovering it.
Just saw a FOX interview with a Kerry Spokesmen (dont remember his name) who verified that Maples contacted him to contact Burkett. The spokesperson says he did so but the forged memos never came up. Somehow I doubt that Burkett would have have failed to mention them. But what gets me is the spokesperson then essentually said 'but the memos prove that Bush was a slacker!'.
I wonder if Burkett had taped that telephone call..... he seems the type that might....
#2
Burkett now maintains that the source of the papers was Lucy Ramirez, who he says phoned him from Houston in March to offer the documents. USA TODAY has been unable to locate Ramirez.
Hmmm - I didn't know Lockhart had a sweetie in Huston named Lucy...
#3
"I didn't forge anything," Burkett said. "I didn't fake any documents. The only thing I've done here is to transfer documents from people I thought were real to people I thought were real. And that has been the limitation of my role. I may have been a patsy."
#4
Can anyone do a lex/nex search on Lucy? I swear I have heard that name before. I am not sure if it's a person or a character in a novel. It's sort of sounds like a made up spy name.
#5
Indeed blogs were instrumental in calling out the forgery, showing how it was done, and figuring out Burkett's role (I found a weblog comment of Burkett's himself, dated Aug-14, where he hints at the documents used by CBS).
Not only would CBS/Kerry have gotten away with it, but even if someone had managed to voice doubts about the documents, it's unlikely that they would have been tracked back to the source(s). It's quite ironical that the evidence of the forgery was provided by CBS on their own website.
The lesson I've learnt from the past few years is that the Old Media will lie whenever their ideology finds it convenient. The NYT, BBC, USA Today and CBS scandals should be proof enough that they cannot be trusted for anything. NOT A SHRED OF CREDIBILITY.
Which, as someone pointed out recently, brings us nicely back to the Age of Enlightenment: thanks to the Internet, each one must be his own independent seeker and judge of both facts and sources. The return to objectivity has begun.
#6
"At Burkett's request, we gave his (telephone) number to the campaign," said Betsy West, senior CBS News vice president.
CBS would not discuss the propriety of the network serving as a conduit between its partisan source, Burkett, and the Kerry campaign. âIt was not part of any dealâ with Burkett to obtain the documents, West said, declining to elaborate.
But Burkett said Monday that his contact with Lockhart was indeed part of an "understanding" with CBS. Burkett said his interest in contacting the campaign was to offer advice in responding to Republican criticisms about Kerry's Vietnam service. It had nothing to do with the documents, he said.
Lockhart said he phoned Burkett at the number provided by CBS. Lockhart also said that subject of the documents never came up in his conversation with Burkett. Lockhart said the conversation lasted just a few minutes. "It's possible that the producer said they had documents," before his conversation with Burkett, he said."
This is from the National Review Online. It seems CBS wnated Burkett to be the Fall Guy and he's putting it right back on CBS.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
09/21/2004 12:53 Comments ||
Top||
#7
Well, (doing quick google phone book search) there are two listings for "Lucy Ramirez" in the Houston area, and two in San Antonio... Not much gets by CBS these days, they will have noticed that "Ramirez" is a pretty frequently occuring name around here, exceeded only by "Martinez" and "Garcia".
I googled the name and the second hit was for a Republican website where Texas Congressman Ruben Hinojosa thanks Lucy Ramirez for her ability to facillitate local/federal partnerships.
Only problem is, Hinojosa is a DEMOCRAT.
On his website:
Congressman Hinojosa's remarks at San Juan Nuestra Clinica groundbreaking
April 7, 2004 â It is a pleasure to be here today. I would like to thank Mayor Laredo, Mr. Gonzalez, and of course, Lucy Ramirez and the board members present for allowing me to take part in this very special event. Cong Hinojosa
Posted by: Steve White ||
09/21/2004 17:52 Comments ||
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#12
you mean Lucy of the mysterious passed envelope by a man at the livestock auction? Jeez, what's the frequency, Kenneth? Rather's seriously had some loose screws for a long time. Fire his Donk-loving Lying ass, CBS, or be damned as a news source*
* I'm lying, no matter what they do, I'll never believe anything they say :-)
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/21/2004 17:56 Comments ||
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#13
Can anyone do a lex/nex search on Lucy? I swear I have heard that name before. I am not sure if it's a person or a character in a novel. It's sort of sounds like a made up spy name.
I read today that Lucy Ramirez was a character on the Chris Issak Show in 2001. She was played by Lexa Doig who, BTW, has done a lot of science fiction roles. Try Googling "Lexa Doig" + "Lucy Ramirez"
Former general Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has defeated Indonesian President Megawati Sukarnoputri in a historic direct election but now has to deliver on promises of tighter security, better government and more jobs. As of early Tuesday, Yudhoyono had yet to claim victory after Monday's run-off, but he had won 60 percent of the ballots with about half the vote counted. Megawati had 40 percent.
In past elections, early counting has proved a reliable guide to final results and pre-election polls as well as an independent survey of Monday's vote also forecast a Yudhoyono victory. Indonesia's financial markets strengthened on Tuesday after the peaceful conclusion to a long election season in the world's most populous Muslim nation and on expectations the market-friendly Yudhoyono, 55, will appoint a strong cabinet. The stock market hit an intra-day record in early trade before losing some gains on profit taking, while the rupiah currency was trading at around 8,990 to the dollar, above Monday afternoon levels of just over 9,000.
Many expect Yudhoyono to retain Megawati's well-respected finance minister, Boediono, in his cabinet, although it could be more than a week before any cabinet announcement comes. "I'm thinking of forming ... the cabinet when I'm sure that I would win this election. Probably 10 days from now, I will be knowing that based on the count," Yudhoyono said on Monday. "Of course, before the inauguration, I will at least dispatch the main nominees," he said referring to the October 20 ceremony.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
09/21/2004 1:57:16 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[4 views]
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#1
didn't SBY preside over some of the Butchering of East Timor in the Suharto years?
Our media is being stuffed with SBY fluff pieces at the moment trying to sell him: he's a secular not a fanatic, he's steady etc
but I remember him being an army butcher under the previous dictatorship....
Is this right? Does anybody else remember anything about this General?
#2
You may be thinking of Wiranto, the Beeb sez, for whatever it's worth, that he wasn't involved in any of the killings in East Timor just before it became independent.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
09/21/2004 2:18 Comments ||
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Its used differently by different people
1. Someone who doesnt beleive in Islam faith, but doesnt consider himself an apostate, and considers himself part of Islamic civilization. Parallel with the more common "secular Jew". Rare usage, ive seen it on an Iraqi blog and nowhere else.
2. Someone who does believe in Islam, and considers himself muslim, but who largely ignores muslim law, and isnt religious. For example whiskey drinking Gen. Dostum in Afghanistan, or large numbers of Turkish and Bosnian muslims. This seems to be the most common and correct usage.
3. Someone who is a muslim but opposes making Sharia into state law. The proper word here is "secularist", not secular muslim, since they are secular only in their approach to the state, not in their personal life.
#7
apparentlt SBY did not have the support of Golakar, which is the party that had the most support from the Indon military, especially elements that were hawkish on East Timor. They threw their support to Sukarnoputri, though they never much liked her either.
1) kerry's got clinton's a-team this time around and not Al Gore's distancing from clinton.
>case in point, begala&carville lost clinton the house/senate in 94 if (I'm not mistaken) w/their strategies and were subsequently canned.
2) jabba says more kids are going to vote this time around because of some *poll* he saw.
>while simultaneously refusing to believe Bush is way up in another *poll*.
3) jabba comes to the conclusion somehow that most cell phone users are somehow dems because most polls only call homes of residence.
4) yes, sharks that do not sleep and are only 30%of the country but somehow own most of it.
>he must've forgot about the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy........bwhahahaha.........
5) the only thing jabba gets right is that the right is not a bunch of whiny bitches like the left and never quit no matter what.......I'm an independent by trade but am in total agreement that out of the two parties, the dems always look like such sensitive, mamby-pambied, wuss-assed kumbaya singing pussies. No patriotic self-respecting, heterosexual white-male could ever vote for a party that has so many damn sissys in it.
#9
Well, ranting, raving, and bullshit movies don't seem to be working for you so what's the next panic move, Lumpy Boy? Could it be...a "hunger strike"?
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!
Not sure if this is kosher, but this is just wacky. Not only does the Memogate story get weirder and weirder, the LLL is freaking out HARDCORE. It's kinda sad actually. :/
Posted by: Anonymous4021 ||
09/21/2004 10:53:30 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
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#1
Very sad... a thoroughly funny, entertaining, break-out-the-popcorn worthy tragedy.
#2
LOL they always say they are going to Canada. They better check it out. Canada may not want them. I doubt very much most of them can afford it let alone qualify for imigrant status. They can always move down with Chavez.
#4
They all seem awful eager to move to countries with all sorts of social programs (Canada and the EU). I somehow doubt that those nations are all that eager to take the wretched refuse of the DU to their breasts. Maybe the United States could offer some sort of incentive program?
#3
American offers his vote to Malaysiakini readers which means all the Bush haters in Malaysia will vote for Kerry, right now Kerry is leading. Could you guys please upset the polls in this lefttist news online. Eric Ossemig, an ex-soldier with the US Army, feels so strongly about this that he is letting readers of malaysiakini determine who he should be voting for in the Nov 2 American presidential election. Vote here top left hand corner for Bush, so that Bush get this guy's vote. Polling period: Sept 20 - Oct 15
Posted by: Eric Mudasi ||
09/21/2004 1:35 Comments ||
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#4
Eric Ossemig has watched one too many episodes of American Idol. Nathan Hale didn't die for the suffrage of a moron who wants to poll Malaysians.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/21/2004 2:49 Comments ||
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#5
Don't worry they are hiring Dresser Atlas to replace them. If that joke when over your head, I live in the middle of an oil patch. Dresser Atlas and Halliburtonn merged many years ago. Around here Halliburtion and "Brown and Root" are jokes to some extent. If you want a job done right you hire That will really get the LLL and moonbats frothed up. It's really remarkable the amount of moobattery surounding Halliburton. They cement oil wells and such, do oil well logging and services for god sakes. The employees on the ground are pud knockers and typical ego tripping wastes of human skin. Do a google and sit back and enjoy the moonbatterty passing it's self off as fact about Halliburton.
#7
SPD---My grandfather used to work for Bechtel in the late 40s and 50s. He was real proud of his company, and I got to see what they did and meet a bunch of engineers and superintendents when I was a little kid. My stepfather was an electrical engineer and project manager for Bechtel at the Morro Bay power plant and was in charge of electrical engineering for the BART rapid transit system in the SF bay area. There was alot of brain power in that organization, probably still is.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
09/21/2004 14:12 Comments ||
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#8
My grand-father once threw a mullet 214 ft with no wind-up.
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
That will really get the LLL and moonbats frothed up. It's really remarkable the amount of moobattery surounding Halliburton. They cement oil wells and such, do oil well logging and services for god sakes. The employees on the ground are pud knockers and typical ego tripping wastes of human skin. Do a google and sit back and enjoy the moonbatterty passing it's self off as fact about Halliburton. 
