North Korea has given its first explanation for the huge blast last week which prompted speculation that it had carried out a nuclear test. The country's foreign minister, Paek Nam-sun, said the blast was in fact the deliberate demolition of a mountain as part of a huge, hydro-electric project. His remarks came in response to a call for information by the visiting UK Foreign Office minister, Bill Rammell. North Korea had said nothing about the incident until now. After meeting with Mr Paek, Mr Rammell urged North Korea to allow a British diplomat to inspect the scene. Mr Rammell welcomed the fact that North Korea had provided an explanation. "But if they are going to be open and engage with the international community, what we really need is diplomats to be able to go to the area and confirm for themselves that that is the case," Mr Rammell said. The North Koreans have promised to consider the request, he said...
If the reports of a mushroom cloud are accurate, then this explanation is a lie. This sort of demolition should produce a much more diffuse cloud of debris (most of the energy directed into shattering the rock).
Posted by: Lux ||
09/13/2004 5:14:40 AM ||
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#1
It should be pretty easy to find a missing mountain. But I doubt there is one. More likely a missing ammo factory or missle silo.
#2
Since when as the "Great Leader" been interested in economic development for his moss eating people?
This is probably another rocket fuel test gone awry.
Posted by: Douglas De Bono ||
09/13/2004 6:54 Comments ||
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#3
Perhaps the mountain blew up when the ammo dump under it did?
Posted by: Steve ||
09/13/2004 8:42 Comments ||
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#4
We got the whole world wired with sattelites checking every movement in the area...so where are the picca's?....Let's wait till Iran will do the blow - up da mountain act....
#7
If the reports of a mushroom cloud are accurate, then this explanation is a lie. This sort of demolition should produce a much more diffuse cloud of debris (most of the energy directed into shattering the rock).
Right-on Lux! The explosive in a rock shot would be systematically arrayed to produce a shattering of the rock that would result in small pieces easily removed by construction equipment. If they built a cavern and shot their wad in one group, you would have a bunch of large pieces that would require reblasting to reduce their size. The Norks will have to wait for the results from our remote sensors and analysis for the truth of their little incident.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
09/13/2004 11:33 Comments ||
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#8
I recommend you all read first chapter of my coming book :"Fission and Thermonuclear methods for Hydroelectric Dam(n) engineering"
Very cheap book.
Posted by: Great Leader ||
09/13/2004 11:50 Comments ||
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#9
Is the book edible?
Posted by: NK peasant ||
09/13/2004 12:09 Comments ||
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Posted by: Frank G ||
09/13/2004 12:16 Comments ||
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#12
Blow up a mountian?
Where is the rage from the Serria Club?
Posted by: Michael ||
09/13/2004 12:25 Comments ||
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#13
Elements in the US knows exactly how and what happened. 10 centimeter resolution satellites have been constantly monitoring the area. Any delay and or ambiguity on our side, is just to give the policy makers "time to plan"!!
#14
We have satellites that monitor above ground nuke blasts and seismometers listening for underground tests. I'd bet dollars to donuts there have also been planes with particle sniffers flying downwind already. If it was a nuke blast, we would know.
Unless, of course, this was just a fake mushroom cloud, dummied up with Microsoft Explosion by the Evil BushHitler(tm) and his Army of Cheneybots to frighten the quivering masses into re-electing You Know Who.
#22
Still nothing at KCNA, so this BS is meant solely for outsiders. A 4-km. mushroom cloud in a country smaller than Mississippi ... and no cover story at all for the home crowd. Not even one as lame as this one. If these poor wretches are that browbeaten and complacent, then Kim's regime truly could survive for decades barring our intervention.
Posted by: Another Dan ||
09/13/2004 22:28 Comments ||
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#23
They blow up a mountain and no juicy Dear Leader/Juche/Sea of Fire article?
German authorities will be closely watching an "Arab Islamic Congress" in Berlin next month, an interior ministry spokesman said Monday, amid claims the meeting is aimed at recruiting terrorists. "We will be following it closely," the spokesman told a routine government press conference, adding that the city-state of Berlin was responsible for "any measures that might have to be taken." Organisers of the congress, to be held from October 1-3, say the meeting, which is open to all Muslims and European citizens, is aimed at combating "US and Israeli globalisation and hegemony." The meeting, which is meant to forge links between Europeans and the Arab world, is also a step in "supporting the resistance movement against the aggression and occupation in Palestine and Iraq," the organisers said on their website.
On Saturday, the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a leading Jewish lobby group, called on Germany to ban the congress and claimed it was an effort to recruit terror operatives. "The Berlin 'First Arab Islamic Congress in Europe' is not an innocent exercise, but a political platform for radical Jihad and a market for potential European youth recruits to the ranks of terrorism," it said in a statement. Shimon Samuels, head of the center's European headquarters in Paris, told AFP: "These are people with links to Al-Qaeda and their goal is to raise money and recruit young Europeans for suicide missions or as messengers." The Wiesenthal Center -- known primarily for its work in tracking down Nazi war criminals -- urged the German government to cancel the conference, "investigate its organisers and ban entry to foreign participants who endanger public order."
#1
Let's hope they'll video as closely as they watch. Finger prints and DNA a plus.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 17:00 Comments ||
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#2
Agreed. If the Germans don't intend to shove full color video, a wide variety of locator beacons, and a healthy dose of Glow-in-the-Dark barium up the asses of these clowns, then they shouldn't allow this (learned from past events) hate-fest disguised as free speech to occur. They already have laws on the books to stop this joke, if they want - again, based upon past events.
#3
TGA, Seriously aot meaning to get you P. O. ed but what is the difference between these guys and the neo-Nazis you were so upset about the other day? Who is more likely to turn a European country into a Fascist state by 2030?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 20:12 Comments ||
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#4
They should just execute all attendees and closely watch all the ingredients during the post mortem.
If Poland decides to withdraw its troops from Iraq it will appear to be surrendering to terrorists, Poland's largest opposition party, which tops the country's popularity polls, said on Monday. "To decide to stop participating in a war because there are casualties means, de facto, surrendering," Donald Tusk, head of the liberal Civic Platform party, told public radio a day after three Polish soldiers were killed in an attack south of Baghdad. His comments came on the same day Iraq's interim President Ghazi Al-Yawar arrived in Warsaw for an official visit.
"The idea is to withdraw the Polish troops from Iraq in agreement with other allies so as not to give the impression that the Poles are surrendering to terrorism as the Spaniards did" last spring, said Tusk, who is considered a potential presidential candidate for the elections set for the end of 2005. "On the other hand, we must pressure our allies, especially the Americans, so that they present a precise plan for ending the intervention in Iraq, and to learn what in the end was the object of this intervention," he added. Parliamentary elections are also due next year in Poland, with a recent poll putting the PO in the lead with 25 percent support, with the ruling Democratic Left Alliance (SLD) party which committed Polish troops to Iraq receiving seven percent support.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
09/13/2004 1:06:41 PM ||
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#1
We could really use a rational opposition like that here in the US of A.
#4
Everyone will have to get out sooner or later. Even us.
Right now, there are wide swathes of Iraq that are no longer under U.S. control. We can't recapture because that would mean heavy casualties, and the American people won't stand for that.
So the current policy is to leave 'em be and make the odd bombing run now and again. Not what I'd call a recipe for victory.
If Mr. Rumsfeld had been right about the Iraqis joyfully embracing American democracy and social ideals, we could have held the country easy. As things stand today, however, the war is already lost. Leave now, leave later, the minute our backs are turned they'll metamorphose into another radical Islamic theocracy.
#8
Mr. Left: Right now, there are wide swathes of Iraq that are no longer under U.S. control. We can't recapture because that would mean heavy casualties, and the American people won't stand for that.
I think when Mr. Left says heavy casualties, he means over 100 KIA a month. Or about 4 a day. Maybe Mr. Left won't stand for it, but most Americans who can remember Vietnam (24 a day) would. I think Mr. Left needs to quit with the purple prose and actually describe the situation with numbers instead of overwrought descriptions. But numbers would detract from the message that sophisticated and literate folks like him want to send when they use words like quagmire, defeat, disaster or incompetence. The only quagmire, defeat, disaster and incompetence is in the overwrought assessments of Iraq written by lazy, incompetent commentators infatuated with their own prose like Mr. Left.
EFL How Do You Solve the Problem of Sharia?
Canada grapples with the boundaries of legal multiculturalism.
By Dahlia Lithwick
Posted Friday, Sept. 10, 2004, at 2:55 PM PT
This week has seen protests around Canada [especially by females from Islamic countries] —and at Canadian Embassies worldwide—as citizens grapple with an issue that blurs the boundary between religious tolerance and oppression. The Ontario government is considering a proposal to allow certain family law matters—including divorce, custody, and inheritance—to be arbitrated by panels of Muslim clerics. Supporters of the proposal say that Canada's commitment to cultural diversity requires that Muslim law be accorded the same respect as other legal systems. Opponents say Muslim law inherently conflicts with the basic freedoms guaranteed Canadians....
The author makes the point that govt may certainly allow citizens to go to arbitrators of their own choice but govt brings trouble to itself in establishing religious courts.
Of course the protests are due to the fact that if sharia courts were established moslem women would likely be bullied into using them and bullied into accepting verdicts contrary to Canadian law.
Posted by: mhw ||
09/13/2004 10:57:15 AM ||
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#1
But... surely everything's OK - Muslims who don't like it can always renounce Islam and revert to secular law. Or will the death penalty for apostasy become part of the sharia, in which case...
WTF is happening to Canada?!!
Supporters of the proposal say that Canadaâs commitment to cultural diversity requires that Muslim law be accorded the same respect as other legal systems.
Official sanctioning and encouragement of multiculturalism is incompatible with western liberal democracy. If you don't like your adopted new home, get the f*ck out. Period.
#2
LH-Didn't you comment in the past about religious arbitration already being allowed to Jews in Canada? (If not, my mistake.) If religious arbitration is already allowed to Jews in Canada, the government is going to be hardpressed explaining why it is not available to Muslims. Wax the shoot, the slide has begun.
What are the chances our neighbors to the north would consider removing religious arbitration as an option from all religious groups? How about restoration of national law applicable to all?
#3
IIRC - the Jewish arbitration is the same as any other - in civil cases agreed to by both parties . If you and the other party wanted your disagreement arbitrated by circus clowns, you could. The issue is, as noted above, the bullying of one party to agree to Sharia arbitration, and/or if they try to apply it to criminal cases or non-Islamists
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/13/2004 11:36 Comments ||
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#4
Not one iota of National law applicable to all has been eroded or requires restoration. This is strictly a matter of mutually voluntary acceptance of guide lines to be used in resolving a private dispute. Who cares what guidelines the parties use as long as the acceptance is truly voluntary?
And if it's not? Any woman who is going to be bullied into accepting a sharia based mediation is going to be bullied out of getting the fruits of a non-sharia based mediation. I'd bet in the good ol' U S of A plenty of imigrants have to go along with old world comunity standards because they couldn't survive outside that community. They came here so their children and grand children could. It's tragic for the first generation but it's not illegal and I suspect it's something every immigrant group has gone through.
What is something awful that we can do something about is the multiculturalism that dominates our schools and attenuates the process of assimilation. The sooner the kids of these immigrants become Americans (or Canadian) the better for everybody.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 11:37 Comments ||
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#5
You may be right, Mrs Davis. The main thing I am concerned about is the rights of minors in a sharia court in Canada. If an adult woman is stupid enough to sign for her own entombment in Islam, that is her problem; but a child of Muslim parents is a minor subject to the decisions of parents, like everywhere else. Under sharia, the parents can decide to force the child to live by the discriminatory practices they brought with them to Canada from the homeland. Cultural assimilation will be a stretch for those kids.
#7
Jules, Canada has not abrogated its child protection laws. As long as they are being obeyed, I hope the Canadian Government keeps its nose out of what goes on in families. As someone who has lived as a social minority (conservative) my whole life, I know how tyrannic the majority can be and why it is so important to fight for rights of other minorities.
It would also be interesting to see how those outraged by this react to the way groups like the Amish, Hutterites and Branch Davidians resolve their disputes in the U. S. today.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 12:25 Comments ||
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#8
Mrs. Davis-Respectfully, I disagree. Child protection laws are meaningless for children who are under psychological and social pressure from their families and religious communities to obey sharia. I can see no good coming out of the incorporation of sharia into Canadian law. Muslims will not assimilate more easily into Canada by embracing separate but equal social policies.
#9
Jules, when has anyone said anything about incorporating Sharia into Canadian law? That is not even remotely under discusion. Only mutually voluntarily acceptable use as a means of mediating private disputes.
But, if you are so concerned, what about the Canadian and American children who are under psychological and social pressure from their families and religious communities to obey the decalogue and even the Mishna? Shouldn't their male children be protected from ritual male genital mutilation? That's how easy it is for the nosy Know Alls in government to get their nose into my or your home. I don't want it and neither should you. As long as families are obeying the law, they should not be disturbed because of their religious beliefs.
Posted by: Dan Rather ||
09/13/2004 14:14 Comments ||
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#10
And let us pass a law allowing people to submit themselves to slavery. Afterall, if they are stupid enough to do so, why should we care?
#11
We do, bitchy. It's called marriage. Except you can't sell your spouse.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 14:22 Comments ||
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#12
And the 'marriage' slavery is both ways and consentual.
Jules - that should also go for all muslims - most muslim minors have islam imposed on them from birth and cannot leave without literally risking their life.
#13
Mrs. Davis-What is a decalogue and Mishna? Do they propose ideas like a woman's testimony is the legal weight of half a man's? I need to know more about what those bodies do before I can venture an opinion. Generally, I am live and let live with religion, have no problem with school prayer, etc.. I do step up and start asking questions when religion physically alters people or approves the removal of their rights of autonomy or equal protection under the law.
As far as genital mutilation under any religion, any sex, any country, it seems to me that is a decision for adults to make for themselves, not a mutilation which believing adults feel they should have a right to perform on helpless children. If a man/woman of age wants it for religious purposes on themselves, with anesthesia in a hospital, fine. Also, though I would apply the same standard to male and female babies, I would point out that male circumcision is not the cutting off of the male genital ogran; clitoredectomy (in terms of the organ that experiences pleasure) is.
#14
Not funny, Mrs. D. Comparing marriage to slavery is a slap to slaves who suffered. And implying Sharia respects "consent" is a slap to women everywhere.
#15
CF, Everybody has their parents' religion imposed on them by birth. If you kill some one you get a trial and go to jail. Do you really think this is a major or even minor problem in the US and Canada?
Sure, second generation immigrants are under tremendous pressure to stay in the community, whatever it is, Jewish, Italian, Muslim. But in how many does it really work, especially for the third generation whose parents remembers how much they resented being told, "If you marry a {substitute disfavored group] I will no longer have a son?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 14:43 Comments ||
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#16
Mrs. Davis-are you saying that the legal system of a country has no rights to intervene when religion has passed beyond the marker of belief/ ritual into abuse of people? Is there any common ground between what bitchy and I are talking about and what you defend? Can Islam go too far?
Decalogue = term of Greek derivation for 10 commandments.
Mishna - a text of ancient Jewish law, that records rabbinic opinions on legal questions raised by the "old" testament. Oldest and most basic text of Jewish law, after the bible itself.
Note - I do NOT know the status of Jewish law in Canada. Its my understanding that two parties to a contract can write into said contract that a Jewish legal court interpret said contract, just as they can ask that the American Arbitration Association, or a group of clowns.
National law in the US at least, included freedom of contract. That INCLUDES freedom of parties to said contract to refer interpretation to private bodies.
The Decalogue is more commonly know as the 10 Commandments. The Mishna is part of the Jewish Rabbinic Commentary on the Old Testament and issues of the day, and thus the exposition of the development of Jewish "Common Law" (and with lots of storytelling, too, as I recall). The ritual male genital mutilation referred to in this example would be cutting off of the foreskin of 8-day old Jewish males.
When I was pregnant with #2 in Germany, the obstetrician informed us that his nursing staff considered male circumcision to be barbaric, and he would only permit it to be done if I held the baby during the procedure. Thus does the majority insert itself into minority decisions, even without the force of law.
#21
OTOH this article present a case where arbitration by a bet din didnt go smoothly, and two orthodox jewish orgs are in a suit in civil court.
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=8148&print=yes
#25
Mrs D. I dont think it is a problem (yet) in the US or Canada that people get killed for leaving a religion. However such has been practiced and is sometimes still practiced and the Qur'an does specify that Apostasy in Islam (and by extension strict Sharia) is the biggest crime, punishable by death. (From FaithFreedom) While this may not be put into practice in Canada or the USA (at least not overtly) no other religion I know of (outside of cults) instructs its followers to kill those who leave.
#26
fb has a point - certain private contracts are not allowed, if they go too far from societal norms. However it would seem necessary to be specific about what they are. And it would seem possible to allow Sharia used in private civil matters shorn of specific features. And those norms would have to be applied equally to all contracts.
This is comparable to a minimum wage law = we DONT allow private contracts that are unconscionable. This is the heritage of progressivism and social democracy, and could be applied here.
#27
Sorry you don't have a sense of humor. I make no implication about Sharia because Sharia is irrelevant to my argument. My argument is about protecting my freedom of relieon and rights as a parent by making sure those of others are not abrogated. If you think the rights of women in the U S or Canada are insufficiently protected, you should be proposing new laws, not discriminating against others.
The decalogue is the ten commandments and the Mishna is the codification of the body of law built around them. (I will defer to anyone who knows more about the Mishna than I.) Allowing people to settle private disputes according to Sharia does none of the things you mention, jules. If some of them are not illegal and you think they should be, change the law. Every one in the U. S. and Canada is subject to the law and no one has proposed any dispensatins for anyone.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 15:13 Comments ||
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#28
TW-Did either of you consider anesthesia? You may never agree on whether it is barbaric or not (and perhaps 20 years from now your son will say what's the big deal with it), but at least you would know you were not causing your child pain.
And before any experts chime in to say they would have been able to recall pain, if there was any, from the 8th day of life, gimme a break. We don't know. What if we find out later it was terrible pain. Does the fact that it's tradition make you feel any better about it?
For me personally, I agree with a German physician (for once)-I think it's barbaric to do it without anesthesia, and inappropriate for adults to perform it on kids. But that's just my my opinion.
#29
Isn't the problem with sharia courts the granting of official legal authority to a private sect's internal governance? What if the court imposes that absurd muslim rule that allows a man to mutter some phrase three times in succession and thereby dissolve his marriage under islamic law?
#30
at one time it was illegal for christians to convert to Judaism, and for Jews to accept Christian converts. In fact this was generally the case in the Christian West from the time of Constantine to the Enlightenment. I presume at least some times the penalty was death. Of course its not in the NT, but then the NT doesnt give a lot of Christian law.
#31
Lex - jews allow divorce in similar fashion IIUC(though a rabbinic court is required to certify it)
Look it doesnt matter how absurd something is, if its in a contract. I could write a contract that says you pay me ten dollars every time i say "Barney the purple dinosaur" If you agree to sign it, thats a contract.
#32
the Mishna is the codification of the body of law built around them. (I will defer to anyone who knows more about the Mishna than I.)
I will take that as an invite:)
In fact the Mishna is NOT a code. On any given issue it records the opinions of rabbis on BOTH sides of a given issue. In many cases it records the consensus (R. Shmuel said X, but the sages said Y) But in many cases it records no consensus but leaves both opinions equal (R. Shmuel said X, and Rabbi Yitzhak said Y)
Later rabbis, intent on reducing all this to codes, developed certain rules of thumb, such as (If Rabbi Shmuel disagrees with one colleague go with Rabbi Shmuel).
And of course the Mishna records nothing in areas where no disagreement arose. For example the Mishna discusses the appropriate time to say the evening shma, without explaining what this prayer is or even that its required - all that is assumed. It can be considered a record of legal cases, rather than a legal code.
Legal codes in Judaism evolved later, and the most famous examples are the Mishna Torah by Ramba (NOT the Mishna) and the Shulchan Aruch, by Joseph Caro.
#33
excuse me, Mrs. D, but you are the one attempting to change the law here.
Maybe you need to read up on Sharia. Last I checked, beating your wife, stoning a woman for adultry or cutting off hands for stealing, were considered cruel and unusual punishment.
Allowing a woman to submit to Sharia is no different than allowing a woman to submit to slavery.
But then...I can see what a modern woman you are. Using "Mrs." for your handle tells us all we need to know about how you see yourself.
Get your own identity separate from your husband, bitch, and then maybe you'll get what's going on here.
#34
this freedom of contract is overrated. It leads only to the exploitation of workers by the capitalist class. A socialist state will not allow people to enter into contracts that are nothing but exploitation.
Posted by: Karl Marx ||
09/13/2004 15:32 Comments ||
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#35
well said, Karl. Afterall, we capitalists have been allowing contracts for slavery, protstitution, drug sales, selling of our children, votes and souls ..since the beginning of our country. That's what the whole American "equality thing" has alway been about. You're so deep.
#36
FB - lets be fair - the nrothern capitalist classes DID abolish contracts for slavery, as part of their destruction of the old quasifeudal planter class, and have attempted to satisfy various quasi-progressive reform movements by limiting prostitution and other abuses. The form of free contract that is most dear to their hearts however is freedom of labor contract, the freedom of the laborer to sell his labor on unconscionable terms.
Now some of my more moderate followers and their allies beleive that using the capitalist state to limit these unconscionable contracts is adequate. Others say that the only answer is the abolition of private property. Now far beit from me to meddle between "leftists" (though it does seem absurd to rely on a capitalist state to regulate exploitation inherent in capitalism as the so called social democrats would do)
#38
Reliving the civil war, are you LH? The evil southerners against the white knights of the north. Scoff. No doubt you see yourself as the enlightened one against the masses of those relics from the south. Thank God you are here to teach those unenlightened masses to be like you.
Other than signing up for the US military, any laborer is free to walk from conditions he finds unmanageable. And the law protects him. So get with reality and STFU.
fb. No I am not changing the law. You are not paying attention. All the Canadians have said is that in Alternative Dispute Resuolution Canacians may retain a mediator who agrees to mediate the private disagrement on the basis of Sharia provided that both parties voluntarily consent and nothing in the resolution contravenes Canadian law. Canadian divorce laws will not be invalidated or superceded.
But if Abdul says Osama owes him 50$ and wants interest but Osama objects to paying interest and the matter is in dispute because the contract was verbal, who cares if they voluntarily agree to let the local Imam mediate using Sharia as long as the issue is resolved to their mutual satisfaction without the violation of any law? It sure saves a lot of expensive court time dealing with a problem that may easily be resolved.
The sticky part in practice will be the voluntary consent. For reasons stated above I suggest that this problem is not worsened by using sharia as the basis of resolution.
But no one is imposing Sharia on onyone else and Canadian law remains supreme. Where's the problem?
By the way, you seem to be the one acting bitchy here. Please don't project your feelings of inferiority on me. By the way, it is you my husband has run off with? I notice your recent arrival seems to corelate closely with his disappearance.
If you want to get what's going on around here, I suggest you start by geting a sense of humor. It's indispensible.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 16:03 Comments ||
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#40
LH, converting between Judism and Christianity may have been illegal but it was (and is) not codified in the religious scriptures - it was 'mans' law and not 'Gods' law.
If you follow the link I provided you will see that death to people who leave Islam is not only permitted, but commanded in the holy Islamic scriptures, the Qur'an itself. The link provided show 3 different translations.
#41
Im not real familiar with labor law, FB - if a laborer signs a contract arent they required to fulfill it? Arent their circumstances where they can be sued for breach?
You can either say that an employer should be able to sue a worker for breach, even of an unfair contract or that they should not. If the former you should for consistency also bind a woman who voluntarily enters a contract that invokes Sharia. If not, you are accepting that its right for the government to override a contract in the name of workers rights. Youre either with sharia, or youre with the social democrats. :)
And i wasnt reliving the civil war, merely giving top of the head marxist analysis of it.
#42
CF, which i already acknowledged "Of course its not in the NT, but then the NT doesnt give a lot of Christian law."
The NT doesnt give detailed law. Still the laws you mention were approved, if not instigated, by the Papacy, which to Catholics was the vicar of Christ on earth, and thus effectively was gods law. You may be a Protestant, but then all youre saying is that this is not law for Protestantism.
BTW, i would also point out that for a Jew to commit idolatry was a capital crime in OT law. This doesnt apply to Christianity and Islam only cause those are not forms of idolatry. And of course there was considerable debate about whether Christianity was a form of idolatry (though by that point no jewish court was in the position to impose a sentence on any non-Jew, let alone the death penalty)
#43
Mrs Davis-I am glad you gave an example, because it sheds a direct light on the potential problem I see there.
You said:...in Alternative Dispute Resuolution Canacians may retain a mediator who agrees to mediate the private disagrement on the basis of Sharia provided that both parties voluntarily consent and nothing in the resolution contravenes Canadian law.
Let's say one of the parties is a wife. Who provides consent for a Muslim family under sharia?
If the wife disagrees, will we ever know?
Second, what will happen to the woman who dares contradict the head of the family and proceeds with her wishes in the court anyway? Acid in the face? Wife beating? Honor killing? Is there no precedent for it happening in other sharia societies?
#44
Oh..well "Mrs My Husband is Somebody More Important Than I Deem Myself", in case you didn't notice, I'm "Feeling Bitchy", so it follows that I'd be in touch with my inner bitch.
All that aside...THANK GOODNESS that you explained to me that signing up for Sharia arbitration is simply about matters re: paying interest on loans. I didn't know!
Gosh..to think all this time I thought there was more to it than that. Thank you for your deep insight on what it would REALLY mean for a young woman to sign away her life to this code.
Hey it may be bitchy to say it, but the fact that your handle has no identity separate from your husband, effectively diqualifies you from speaking as an authority about how women feel regarding a set of laws that defines them as the property of a man.
#45
Jules, I believe I addressed this point in comment 4. I believe it is now for you to tell me how this wife who can be forced to consent to a decision under Sharia will be able to avail herself of any other resolution. Please provide an example. I agree with all the points you make in the second statement, but it is irrelevant to the use of sharia where it is voluntarily agreed.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 16:27 Comments ||
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#46
Second, what will happen to the woman who dares contradict the head of the family and proceeds with her wishes in the court anyway? Acid in the face? Wife beating? Honor killing? Is there no precedent for it happening in other sharia societies?
De bossed signed duh contract wit a stooge union, ya see? So we wuz gonna go to court, but dem bosses got wind of it, and they tole their mafia pals to tell frankies wife that frankies gonna go for a swim wit' cement shoes, if he dont lay off this lawsuit crap.
So Jules - do you have the state take away the right to negotiate a labor contract, because of things like the above, OR do you have the state crack down on the illegal use of violence??
You think wife beating and wife murder only happens in the muslim community? Or that its only the muslim community where people are coerced by threat of violence into legal steps against their interests?
Perhaps we should continue this conversation next week when you're feeling a bit better?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 16:31 Comments ||
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#49
LH-I don't think the state has it written into the labor code that God authorizes the slaying or state labor workers for humiliating their bosses. We already know your position on women's rights under religious law, LH (women deserve few, if any), so this is really a discussion to clarify where Mrs. Davis stands.
Mrs. Davis-Are you asserting that allowing sharia into Canadian national law will result in no more violence than allowing the 10 commandments into U.S. law? If so, what reason do you have to believe that?
#50
LH...if you can't see the irony in a woman who chooses to anonymously identify herself "Mrs Somebody." - defending the implementation of a law that defines a woman as the property of a man -
v/s
the title of Mrs. Bush, a woman who is being identified as the wife of the President of the Free World, then there really is little hope for you.
Additionally, I'm just curious. If a woman signs a contract with her pimp, regarding interest on profits earned by her prostitution - do you think those laws should be upheld in arbitration?
No one is sugesting or agreeing to allow Sharia into Canadian law. I suspect that whatever violence you are contemplating is already and would remain illegal under Canadian law. I doubt that those who engage in such violence will be more or less likely to engage in such violence because Sharia might be used to resolve private disputes as long as the result does not violate Canadian law.
People who hit women, throw acid in people's facet, etc., etc. as we are treated to daily in the news are savages. They care not one whit what the law is as they think they are above it. This is a problem in any country that admits immigrants who are not acculturated to their new home or aware of its laws.
When they engage in such activities they should be prosecuted under the law.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 16:47 Comments ||
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#53
sorry honey, you just don't have any credibility. Try changing your handle and maybe we'll take note.
#54
I believe it is now for you to tell me how this wife who can be forced to consent to a decision under Sharia will be able to avail herself of any other resolution.
I think this is where we all meet up again-SHE CAN'T, or at least, it's unlikely, given the potential (illegal) punishment for doing so that is in store for her, under the blessing of her religious text (although you are correct Mrs D, it can happen anywhere-but contrast the typical US populace's response to crimes against women-"it's wrong" and the Muslim world's typical response-"she must have done something to deserve it).
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 18:07 Comments ||
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#58
Didnt these people immigrate to get rid of the SHARIA, whats the matter with them. If they want SHARIA they cab bloody go back to where they came from
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/13/2004 21:32 Comments ||
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#61
What would keep an Anglo-saxon male from "converting" to Islam just before a divorce to take advantage of Sharia's biases? If a Moslem buddy of mine got a good custody deal in a Sharia court, couldn't I sue to have my case ejudicated in Sharia court as well?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/13/2004 22:17 Comments ||
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MARTIN DYCKMAN
TALLAHASSEE - A thousand dead in Iraq. For what? History's highest budget deficit. For what? George W. Bush has been so reckless with America's lives, wealth and reputation and so stupendously incompetent and untrustworthy overall as to defy belief that anyone but Halliburton and the House of Saud would want him to be elected. What about Ariel Sharon and Wolfowitz?
Patience, lad, patience.
And yet, if the polls are accurate, Bush is leading. Dismal as that news may be, what's more to be feared is the reason. Though they see through him in nearly every other respect, many people are convinced of his leadership, his courage, his sense of resolve.
Yeah. That's what I like about him, too...
Not me, man. I just like the way he pisses off the French.
This triumph for the art of propaganda - all we really know about his courage, after all, is how little of it he displayed during Vietnam - signifies mortal danger for American democracy.
Oh, I don't agree. By the way, Martin Dyckman, how much courage did you display during Vietnam?
That was different, of course.
The "man on horseback" mentality, the belief that a leader's strength is more important than where it leads them, defines a population that is vulnerable to dictatorship. We 'merican people are sooo stoopid. We always look for the horse guys to lead us. After all, look at FDR.
Mr. Dyckman appears to be complaining because Bush is showing resolution and determination, that having determined a path that he thinks is correct he's sticking to it. It just isn't done in Mr. Dyckman's circles, y'know...
This is not to call Bush a dictator or suggest that he wants to be one.
No, no, certainly not! You wouldn't call him a dictator, you'd just imply it. Nice shiv, by the way.
But let no one believe that it couldn't happen here, as has happened so often elsewhere. It has happened here, and by the design of better statesmen than Bush.
The fact that it could happen here doesn't mean that it is happening here. There's a difference to be found between the possible and the actual.
And it won't happen here today because we have about a hundred million Americans who own about two hundred million guns.
John Adams, an original American patriot, signed the Alien and Sedition Acts that put people in prison for what they said or wrote.
Seems to me the Alien and Sedition Acts were repealed. Nor did they turn the nation into a dictatorship.
Abraham Lincoln, one of our three greatest presidents, suspended the writ of habeas corpus.
As a temporary measure when the nation was in a state of emergency. There was that matter of half the country being in rebellion against the Union, y'see...
Woodrow Wilson, a scholar by profession, jailed and deported people for opposing a war that, nearly a century later, still raises the question of what American interests compelled our participation.
If the question is finally settled, will that mean the deportations and juggings can stand? And, of course, the dictatorial Wilson administration did lead to the excesses of the 1920s, Prohibition, the Hall-Mills Murder Case, the novels of Thorn Smith, and Sacco and Vanzetti. I guess that means we should think twice before declaring war on Kaiser Bill again, even should a Lusitania or two go down and no matter how many telegrams Zimmerman sends...
Franklin D. Roosevelt put 110,000 men, women and children in concentration camps because of their race.
That, and the fact that there were active spy rings and such in the country. And I believe that among the numbers interned there were also a bunch of Germans and Italians...
America's first though fourth Dictators. Right there on the List of Dictators with Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin.
So now we know that Dyckman wouldn't have fought the Civil War, WWI and WWII.
In each instance, danger was the pretext for suspending democracy and decency. Pretext=War?
Any thought that the "pretexts" may have represented valid concerns, Mr. Dyckman? Any thought at all, for that matter?
Dictatorship has struck even in the absence of danger. Right here, in Florida.
Yes, Yes! We all remember when the Black Shirts rose up in Tampa and... ummm... Oh. Sorry. That didn't happen. What're you talking about, Mr. Dyckman?
But he did raise Florida right on cue ...
In December 2000, the Florida House of Representatives, in broad daylight, voted 79 to 41 to steal the 2000 presidential election by formally appointing the Republican slate of electors regardless of what a recount might show. Though presumptively legal under the Constitution, that was a dictatorial act in light of the modern expectation that the people, not the politicians, elect the president. Presumptively legal because it is SPELLED OUT in the document? That each State's House is responsible for selecting electors? And yet the Barking Moonbats aren't aware of how our Constitution works?
"Presumtively legal" is the very same thing as "legal," Mr. Dyckhead, even if it means things didn't go your way...
'course, Marty would rather whinge than do something like, you know, proposing to amend the Constitution or something.
Florida rewarded the perpetrators by sending Tom Feeney to Congress and re-electing nearly everyone who followed his orders. If that disgraceful vote ever became even an issue in any of their campaigns, I am unaware of it. So when the Florida House performed their constitutionally mandated vote to secure a "safe harbor" for the voters of Florida, that is disgraceful? What IS disgraceful is what you write, Sir. Have you no decency?
Wonder why his pals the Dems didn't raise the issue, other than it was a dead-bang loser.
The Senate (which Senate? Oh, the FLORIDA SENATE)
did not follow suit (Of course under that Constitution thingie, only the HOUSE is relevant)
on, but only because of President John McKay's shrewd strategy of waiting to see what the Supreme Court would do. Nonetheless, a precedent was set for use in the next state where one party controls both houses and opportunity knocks. The number of houses is irrelevant. It is the HOUSE that is relevant.
Meanwhile, it is becoming clear that the great falsehoods of this administration were not limited to the phantom weapons of mass destruction, the fanciful link between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida, and (most recently) the phony Medicare drug benefit cost figures that were deliberately fed to the Congress. Phantom, fanciful and phony, eh?
He's not talking about the chem weapons found, or about Zarqawi. I don't know anything about Medicare drug benefits, but he's probably not talking about those, either. He's talking about... ummm... something else.
To that list must be added the deception that the Republicans wanted Howard Dean for their opponent. The Washington punditry corps regurgitated that as fact and helped give the Republicans exactly what they did want: a senator (actually, two senators) on the opposition ticket.
Ahah! Now it comes out!
Those nafarious Pubs can do ANYTHING, I tell ya. The Dhimmis, of course, have no responsibility in their own party as it is apparently run by the Pubs.
I had no idea Karl Rove was that good.
It didn't matter who. Sitting members of Congress are sitting ducks because they come with the fresh baggage of complicated voting records that are easy to misconstrue and misrepresent. Yeah, facts can be so pesky when your a Democrat.
Wonder what it says about the voters of the party who selected two sitting ducks as their standard-bearers?
The Homeland Security Act, for example, contained a poison pill for Democrats: Its labor-bashing component set up Max Cleland, a triple amputee Vietnam War hero, to be smeared as unpatriotic. If there is such a place as hell, surely it awaits the liars who did that. If the Dims took a poison pill on that act, if was a suicide. And, Cleland wasn't questioned on his patriotism, but on his placing pleasing Unions over National Security. It wasn't over the ad. No less an authority than Zell Miller, who has known both men for more than 30 years explained Cleland lost because he was voting with the liberals, not Georgians, he said to Russert and Brokaw during the DNC.
In the entire history of the United States, there have been only four presidents who went straight from the Congress to the White House. The last of them - and the only Democrat - was John F. Kennedy, 44 years ago. Real JFK was a Democrat, but, didn't he do things like massive tax cuts and talk about America's obligations to the whole world? Sumthin' 'bout "Bear any burden".
That, and the family bought all the votes in West Virginia. And those of all the dead people in Chicago. And he still didn't manage to get more of the popular vote than Nixon...
Former members of Congress have fared much better, but in recent years only by way of the vice presidency. The Democrats should have learned by now. Of the six Democratic presidents directly elected since the Civil War, all but one (JFK) were governors: Grover Cleveland, Wilson, Roosevelt, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. (Michael Dukakis would have won too had he managed to show anger, or any other passion, at appropriate moments.) Truman and Lyndon Johnson would not have made the White House but for the vice presidency. Dukakis only lost because he wasn't a barking moonbat, eh? Yeah, that would have helped.
Help me out, Martin, what's your complaint again?
Governors, or former governors, have played well for the GOP too: e.g., Ronald Reagan, George Bush. A governor's record is rarely as complex as that of a member of Congress, and the job title itself conveys a sense of competence and authority. Complexity=Nuanced
Even if, as we see now, the competence is only an illusion.
Wow! Wotta piece! I can't believe somebody actually printed this! This is a classic cry from the heart of somebody who's not getting his own way. Poor, poor Mr. Dyckman.
Needs more cowbell.
Posted by: Brett_the_Quarkian ||
09/13/2004 12:00:00 AM ||
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Rumsfeld destroyed questions/complaints such as these at the National Press Club last Friday. Here is a transcript. He was on. The CSPAN camera caught quite a few unconscious nods of agreement as it panned the audience.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/13/2004 1:05 Comments ||
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#2
Wonder what it says about the voters of the party who selected two sitting ducks as their standard-bearers?
That they've developed really strong beaks from carrying the flagpoles?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 9:34 Comments ||
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#5
hmmmm - nice pick of another deranged Tennessean on the Drudge Report this AM: the Gorebot unhinged
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/13/2004 10:05 Comments ||
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#6
To Mr. Dyckman. A quote from Bruce Willis in the film 'Tears Of The Sun':
"You'd better Cowboy the F*CK up!!!!"
Though it does appear that the Smoky Mountain MoonBat Fever is rampant in Gore's lost home state.
Jack.
Posted by: Jack Deth ||
09/13/2004 12:47 Comments ||
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#7
"I can't believe we're losing to this guy."
Isn't that essentially what he's saying?
Posted by: Steven Den Beste ||
09/13/2004 12:48 Comments ||
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#8
1) Thanks to those who had the skill to properly fisk this article.
2) Steven, yup, just like Jon Lovitz playing Dukakis on SNL. BTW, loved your work and saddened by your losing your blog interest, but love ya anyway.
#9
Ha! Did you see this guy's photo? He feeds right into my belief that, if you talk to any rabid Bush hater long enough, you will find that they are children with scars. Children who were too fat, too short, buck teeth or that the cheerleaders didn't like them. As a result, they now enjoy being bullies against "it just came too easy George".
#12
"Governors, or former governors, have played well for the GOP too: e.g., Ronald Reagan, George Bush. A governorâs record is rarely as complex as that of a member of Congress, and the job title itself conveys a sense of competence and authority."
Um, they also come with a resume that includes "executive/administrative experience" since that is the position they're applying for.
State Governors Clinton, Carter, and Roosevelt all parlayed their executive/administrative experience into unseating Federal Chief Executives who were viewed as failures.
Any freshman Poli Sci major knows this stuff! Always nominate a governor!
#15
Thought for sure this was a rant of fear and loathing from a speaker in a San Francisco leftist rag peddled on the streets. But St. Pete Times? Applications accepted for an editor position.
Posted by: chicago mike ||
09/13/2004 16:28 Comments ||
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#16
Read it carefully. What the man is saying is that he only believes in Democracy as long as it goes his way. Otherwise he'd be just as comfortable with a People's Democratic Republic. One Party, One Choice. So simple.
Posted by: Don ||
09/13/2004 19:42 Comments ||
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#17
Dyckman, all I can say is your sister eats kitty litter and your momma is a Hamster. Now go jerkoff in the corner.
Posted by: Bill Nelson ||
09/13/2004 20:31 Comments ||
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#18
Miss ya', Steven! Nice to "hear" from you here, even if it's short.
I've still got you on my "favorites" list, and check every week or so.
Hope springs eternal. ;-P
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
09/13/2004 21:23 Comments ||
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Amother Ralph Peters gem. He even talks about Boris:
"Above all, the 'Net empowers the weak and cowardly, inviting them to join an imagined community of supermen. Communicating on the 'Net, each pathetic Nietzsche believes himself in the company of giants."
Posted by: Steve White ||
09/13/2004 5:22:19 PM ||
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More of that VAST RIGHTWING CONSPIRACY* don't you know.
* (C) Hillary Rodham Clinton, 1998, All Rights Reserved...
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/13/2004 10:02 ||
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My Uncle, Peter Klink, used to work in/ run part of Windows on the World/ Greatest Bar on Earth(?). He'd quit a few years before but was devastated to lose so many staff - I think they tried to make it to the roof but were thwarted - info anyone???
Posted by: Howard UK ||
09/13/2004 11:13 Comments ||
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#2
HUK: I think they tried to make it to the roof but were thwarted
The doors leading to the roof were locked. They won't make that mistake again. I hope.
#4
Oh, please, not Howard and Zhang too. They really are good fellows.
HUK, ZF, (It's her time, so humor her.)
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 16:54 Comments ||
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#5
A guy I went to high school with worked at Cantor Fitzgerald and was killed on 9/11. I was not particularly close with him while in school, and hadn't seen him for several years, but I am convinced that he would have jumped. I know he spoke to his brother and told him how bad it was getting. He just was the type to say "f*ck it, I will die on my own terms." I have always hoped that he had a quick, painless trip down. I would like to think that he did.
Posted by: Tibor ||
09/13/2004 20:09 Comments ||
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#6
Thanks - Mrs D / ZF!
Posted by: Howard UK ||
09/14/2004 5:59 Comments ||
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Survey conducted by the Washington-based Pew Research Center
Eighty six percent Pakistanis support President Pervez Musharraf's policies, according to an independent US global survey, which found a majority in Muslim countries to justify suicide attacks on the US and Western assets. Views on Musharraf are more positive than negative in Turkey, and are about evenly divided in Britain, the US, Russia, and Jordan. Negative opinion of Musharraf is strongest in France, Germany, and Morocco. In the predominantly Muslim countries surveyed, anger toward the US remains pervasive, although the level of hatred has eased somewhat and support for the war on terrorism has inched up.
Osama Bin Laden, however, is viewed favourably by large percentages in Pakistan (65%), Jordan (55%) and Morocco (45%). Even in Turkey, where Bin Laden is highly unpopular, as many as 31% say that suicide attacks against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq are justifiable. Majorities in all four Muslim nations surveyed doubt the sincerity of the war on terrorism. Instead, most say it is an effort to control Middle East oil and to dominate the world. UN Secretary General Kofi Annan is well regarded in most of the nations surveyed, with majorities expressing a favourable opinion of Annan in France (79%), Germany (74%), Great Britain (65%), and Russia (53%). Opinion is more positive than negative in the US (42% favourable to 23% unfavourable), Turkey (43% to 36%), and Pakistan (29% to 21%), though many have no opinion about the UN leader in these nations. But these favourable reviews are not universal. Majorities rate the UN leader unfavourably in both Jordan (54%) and Morocco (78%).
About half of Pakistanis also say suicide attacks on Americans in Iraq — and against Israelis in the Palestinian conflict — are justifiable. The survey finds, however, that Christians get much lower ratings in predominantly Muslim countries than do Muslims in mostly Christian countries. Majorities in Morocco (73%), Pakistan (62%) and Turkey (52%) express negative views of Christians.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
09/13/2004 6:50:32 AM ||
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BUDDHIST Thai soldiers and police are flocking to a temple in the kingdom's restive south seeking special tattoos to protect them from the violence that has rocked the region this year, media reported. The head monk of Pattani's Sathit Chonlantan temple has been so overwhelmed by requests for the religious tattoos that he has had to abandon the traditional hand-tapping method and buy a tattoo machine, according to the Bangkok Post. "Every day since January there are people asking for tattoos," Abbot Phra Chaiya Opaso was quoted as saying, adding he estimated the number of uniformed clients who had received the free service to be in the thousands. The tattoos, which often include Buddha images, are believed to have supernatural powers protecting the wearer from physical harm, and do not start to function until the head monk has given the recipient a firm kick with his right leg, the daily reported. Those who did not want to go under the needle could also reportedly use a special bullet shell filled with 108 herbs and blessed by the monk.
A Muslim insurgency raged in the south until the 1980s, but attacks had dropped off until January when a raid on an army weapons depot killed four soldiers and heralded a new wave of violence. A policeman gunned down in Pattani province Saturday became latest victim of the rising unrest, which has claimed nearly 300 lives this year.
Posted by: tipper ||
09/13/2004 12:32:51 AM ||
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"...from physical harm, and do not start to function until the head monk has given the recipient a firm kick with his right leg, the daily reported."
Kick-start me man.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/13/2004 8:21 Comments ||
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#2
The ghost dance is the only dependable lead prophylactic.
The Philippine military has asked the rebel Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) to rid its ranks ofthe al-Qaeda linked Jemaah Islamiyah (JI) terrorist elements even as it announced next month's arrival of an international team thatwill monitor the cease-fire agreement with the MILF. "We hope the MILF will keep its promise to clean its areas of terrorists," the Philippine Star daily Monday quoted military spokesman Daniel Lucero as saying. "We hope they will do it well so that central Mindanao (in the southern Philippines) will no longer be a haven for terrorists particularly those from JI."
Intelligence reports persist that a number of operatives of the Southeast Asian regional terrorist network are being coddled by the MILF, particularly at the rebel lair in Mount Kararaw in the southern province of Lanao del Sur where local terrorists are reportedly being trained. But Lucero hinted that the MILF leadership headed by Al Haj Murad is not aware of the situation. He said it is possible that the terrorists are being coddled by MILF factions, which are opposed to the peace process. "The way we see it, the MILF is not a one organization. There are many factions here that are not supporting the peace process so it is now in the hands of the MILF to enforce what was agreed upon and signed agreement by both sides," he added.
At the same time, Lucero said the main body of the International Monitoring Team may arrive in the country also next month. He said the team would be led by Malaysians but said the nationalities of the other team members were not yet known. The advance party of the team arrived in Manila Friday to checkon the administrative and logistical requirements of the main body. They will also visit five key cities in Mindanao where the team will set up satellite offices. The nine-man advance team of Malaysians -- eight military men and a policeman -- will fly to Mindanao after paying a call on Defense Secretary Avelino Cruz and military chief General Narciso Abaya and foreign affairs officials Monday.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
09/13/2004 12:25:43 AM ||
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If the MILF cannot rid itself of the JI 'elements' as it has promised -- its pretty obvious that it would not be able to live up to its part in any 'peace agreement'.
I think Arroyo (the Philippine president) knows this and doesn't care as long as there is the 'appearance of progress'.
Syria and Lebanon rejected any outside role in shaping their relations Sunday, a day after a top State Department official said Damascus should pull its troops from its small neighbor. Syrian Information Minister Ahmad al-Hasan and his Lebanese counterpart Michel Samaha also rejected media reports heralding a change in ties between them or a redeployment of the 17,000 Syrian troops in Lebanon. "All those who wish to tackle the issue of ties, from outside these two states, should know that they would be interfering in a Lebanese issue of sovereignty," Samaha told a news conference with Hasan in Damascus.
"And that's something only Syria can do!" he added.
U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs William Burns said after meeting Syria's president Saturday it was time for Syria to quit Lebanon. He also voiced "deep concern over Syrian intervention" in its political process. Samaha said Burns' comments in Damascus would not affect prospects for any Syrian troop redeployment, which would be determined by security requirements and sovereign decisions of the two countries. Samaha said Lebanon might even call for greater Syrian troop deployment if a foreign security threat emerged. "In that case we shield ourselves through a sovereign decision for redeployment in another way," he said.
Pretext to emerge in 5 ... 4 ... 3 ...
Hasan questioned the legitimacy of a U.N. Security Council resolution adopted earlier this month calling on all foreign forces to leave Lebanon, for militias to disband and foreign governments to respect Lebanese sovereignty. The resolution did not give anyone the right to impose decisions on Lebanon or to override its agreements with Syria, he said.
"I repeat again -- that's our job!"
Hasan hailed Washington's willingness to talk as a positive development in relations and reiterated Syria would cooperate with U.S. security experts to try to stabilize Iraq. In an apparent reference to Burns' remarks that Syria must halt the activities of anti-Israeli groups to allow progress in Arab-Israeli peacemaking, Hasan said violence resulted from Israeli occupation of Palestinian land. "The resistance of the Palestinian people is a legitimate right that is guaranteed by the United Nations pact, therefore there should be a definition for terrorism that differentiates between it and legitimate struggle against occupation," he said.
Murdering women and children is terrorism. Exploding bombs in pizza parlors is terrorism. Care to refine that?
Posted by: Steve White ||
09/13/2004 12:00:00 AM ||
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When "Baby Assad" speaks you see his lips moving but you hear His Masters Voice (in colloquial Pharsi) and if you sniff real hard you may even get a whiff of Sarin nerve gas.
And people still want us to negotiate peace with this Hizbullah/Ayatullah Puppet.
May his life be Interesting (and short).
May Allah quickly retrieve him into his lap, Amen.
Posted by: Elder of Zion ||
09/13/2004 12:32 Comments ||
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Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda group has failed miserably in its political aims, leaving behind a trail of freelance terror and chaos that is backfiring on the Muslim world, according to French expert Gilles Kepel. Bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahri, his right-hand man and main strategist, originally hoped the spectacular September 11 attacks in New York and Washington would mobilise the masses in Muslim countries to bring Islamist rulers to power. But all they have succeeded in doing is creating imitators whose bloody attacks are undermining the jihadist cause by creating uncontrolled strife, said Kepel, head of ME Studies at the Institute of Political Studies in Paris. "Three years after September 11, the jihad has turned against those who launched it," he said in an interview. "They haven't succeeded in seizing power anywhere and the only state they controlled, the Taliban emirate (of Afghanistan), was destroyed," he said at the weekend as New York marked the third anniversary of the World Trade Center attacks. "But they have created imitators and they have spread - and that's the most worrying," he said.
The fact that Islamist attacks have become "increasingly horrible and monstrous" reflects what Kepel called a degradation of the jihad movement into a splintered campaign. "If the jihad is not victorious, the society in whose name it was called turns against it," he said. "This is called 'fitna,' it's a war within Islam." Kepel cited Palestinian suicide bombers, terror attacks in Saudi Arabia and the "Pandora's box of ethnic strife and hostility" in Iraq as examples of how Islamist violence has created tensions and instability among Muslims.
#1
It is Zionists that masterminded 911 for naive Americans to fight and die for Israel.
Posted by: Abdul Goldman ||
09/13/2004 21:29 Comments ||
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#2
Duh. As long as we ( American's stay focused), this is thier ( al Qaeda's) problem. If we do not give up, they will question themselves to death, like they want us to.( The French are like them)
"Osama bin Ladenâs al-Qaeda group has failed miserably in its political aims, leaving behind a trail of freelance terror and chaos that is backfiring on the Muslim world, according to French expert Gilles Kepel."
#4
I am proud to be a Southern Zionist, the Jewish people came to South Carolina in 1695, and helped imeasurably in the founding of one of the truly great American cities, Charleston, In fact the first jew to ever be elected to a governmental position Happened in S.C. and he ended up being killed in the Revolution, He died for my country and I would Die for his...
#5
"The increasing number and scope of enemy attacks shows that we are clearly winning! Our enemy is desperate and throwing in his last reserves!"
Yeah, right. Iraq is experiencing a popular uprising, in both senses of the word. It really doesn't matter who's running the show. Frankly, I doubt that anyone is. Spontaneous acts of violence, opportunities seen and exploited. The way they torched one of our Bradleys the other day, causing a U.S. chopper to open fire upon a crowd.
I hate it when an academic promotes his wishful-thinking thesis in order to preen at the expense of public discourse.
#8
SC, then you must be familiar with Beth Elohim in Charleston which in 1776 was one of the two Jewish congregations in the South.
Posted by: Abdul Goldman ||
09/13/2004 21:52 Comments ||
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#9
I am, I have visited the synagouge in charleston and it is the oldest in the south, I am quite proud of the accomplishments that the gouge has made, and I hope other carolinians will visit the magestic building...I amnot Jewish btw but have an understanding of what is important to our state and culture...
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Benjamin.html here is an intresting Jewish figure that I admire, not in a bad kkk way that is stereotypical of outsiders to the state.. enjoy
#10
It is Zionists that masterminded 911 for naive Americans to fight and die for Israel
LOL!! uh huh. so the arab and iranian commemoration of the sept 11 attacks was to praise the zionists. And the zawahiri praise of the "islamic brigades that attacked new york and washington" was code for "we had nothing to do with it." No doubt. And bin laden's clear admission of al qaeda's involvement in sept 11 was merely a ploy, the purpose of which cannot be divulged.
I find it fascinating that even when the perpetrators ADMIT to having done the deed, the apologists are out in force blaming others.
I'll bet if bin laden showed up in NYC and went to all the networks with documents that confirm how he was responsible, there would be a group of useful idiots people who would STILL blame Israel for Sept 11.
Is their hate that blinding, or are they really that ignorant?!
#11
I am starting to entertain an idea that some unknown disease it appearing in pandemic proportions.
Something that causes a disconnect between two brain hemispheres and contradictory concepts can live beside each other without any apparent discomfort to the patient (except marked preponderance towards seething).
It does not seem to be inflicting Arabs or population of muslim countries only, many cases reported from Europe and a substantial infection is noticeable amongst US citizens of Liberal leaning as well.
Osama bin Ladenâs al-Qaeda group has failed miserably in its political aims, leaving behind a trail of freelance terror and chaos that is backfiring on the Muslim world
Awwwwwww, ain't that just too bad.
Now where'd I put that nano-violin? And that 2-thread-wide crying towel?
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
09/13/2004 22:37 Comments ||
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#13
This is called âfitnaâ
As in, "They ain't fit for na-thing?"
Apt name, then.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
09/13/2004 22:39 Comments ||
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#14
Sounds like a win/win situation . . . for us: either we are able to create a stable democracy in Iraq which will be the model for other ME democracies or we withdraw and allow them to destroy themselves.
Granted their are other negative consequences for the second option, but it's still a win of sorts.
#16
Z - I offer an interesting book I read a long time ago... give this page a quick peek - fascinating stuff - in that pop psychology sort of way. If he's right, perhaps the corpus callosum is either missing or under-developed in certain populations...
#17
"Instead, he believed that something like schizophrenia was the typical human mental state as recently as 3000 years ago." (Copied from .com's link.)
#18
Not meaning to brag, but after the mosque bombings in Turkey and 311 in Spain last, I said Al Qaeda has shifted it's strategy. They can no longer credibly strike against the US or its targets so they have taken to shitting on their own backyard and on their own people.
Face it. Bush et al rocked Al Qaeda starting in September 2001 and it hasn't stopped since. You can't plan attacks when Global hawks are aloft tracking you; you can't go to the bank to make that Soddy price's deposit or to wire money to Abdul in Florida if you are worried that a Spec. Forces sniper will ruin your whole day.
#19
.com, Jaynes is a fool, with his concept of linear appearance of developed corpus calosum in HSS in recent history. However, he may have accidentally stumbled upon a discovery that he did not assess properly, while you've nailed it nicely:
"perhaps the corpus callosum is either missing or under-developed in certain populations..."
#20
Z - Thx for response... Yeah - I read him back in my deep navel-study period - I had the book in hardback, if that tells you what I mean, lol! Also, Love and Will, Beyond Freedom and Dignity, Center of the Cyclone, ad nauseum... the whole New Age set of primers which lead to today's LLL zipperheads. So I know my enemy well, lol!
You're too kind, but I'll take the compliment. Hell, who knows, it may be true, lol! But if Hahvahd Medical found out, would they tell anyone? Lol!
#21
I had the book in hardback, if that tells you what I mean, lol!
sounds like the campus bookstore wasn't buying that back, hmmm?
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/13/2004 23:29 Comments ||
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#22
Lol, Frank - nope. I eventually donated the lot to a friend who was starting up a free used-book swapping service on-campus. I got a mess of Sci-Fi paperbacks in exchange. I was waaaaay ahead on the deal, IMHO!
Al Qaeda is not "backfiring" in the least. This is its precise logical outcome and all that we've seen represents its exact desired intent. There is no malfunction or straying involved. Al qaeda seeks to impose global sharia by any means necessary and the remaining civilized world will answer with conventional military responses at first and then proceed to unconventional retaliation when they are perceived to be necessary. As more Beslan-style atrocities occur, unconventional means will become the norm, ending with total war and massive casualties as a result of al Qaeda's obsession with global imposition of their worldview.
Not a single part of al Qaeda's plans have gone awry. They seek ultimate domination with total disgegard for the profound risk all Muslims are exposed to by their pursuit. If Islam ignores this danger and continues their tacit support of violent jihad, they will garner equal time in the gunsights along side al Qaeda.
The only rate limiting factor is the stupidity or hesitance of secular cultures to impose the required degree of force needed to eliminate al Qaeda's threat. By their very nature, al Qaeda and its jihadist associates will exceed all tolerable limits and thereby invite total war to be waged upon them. It is not a question of whether this will happen, but merely when.
Secular cultures would do well to realize this now and bypass the needless slaughter of civilian populations as have occurred in Beslan and elsewhere. Al Qaeda will certainly not blanch at repeatedly perpetrating atrocities like Beslan. Only the dawning awareness of this simple fact is what prevents the necessary escalation to total war against Islamism. Without Islam as a whole abandoning violent jihad, total war is guaranteed and exactly what they deserve.
#24
Zen - substitute "non-Muslim" for secular and you hit dead-center, IMHO. Wait, one quibble: I've already jumped / escalated to "fry 'em up". Sorry, I skipped that last step cuz the 'Slamos decided not to play by your schedule.
#25
I've already jumped / escalated to "fry 'em up". Sorry, I skipped that last step cuz the 'Slamos decided not to play by your schedule.
.com, that's why I specifically used the term "stupidity" in the following excerpt from my post.
"The only rate limiting factor is the stupidity or hesitance of secular cultures to impose the required degree of force ..."
I fully realize we are up against those who have largely abandoned any concept of "playing by the rules." Anybody who doubts this need only review the video from Beslan.
If no other atrocity served this gruesome purpose, the murder of so many children in Beslan should have been the final scale-tipping and polarizing moment for anyone in doubt. Those who still do remain in doubt are flatliners.
#27
#26Yep, Z - Beslan did it for me. Everything went dry. Fry 'em up.
.com, I totally understand why you feel as you do. I can no longer condemn those who do. The terrorists' level of barbarity and cruelty has gone past all tolerable limits.
The only interim phase I wish Western governments would try is to begin capping rectal cavities like abu Hamza, al Qaradawi, al Sadr and any other of these jihad mouthpieces walking around wasting our precious oxygen.
It's one of the last remaining experiments I can envision besides total war. I cannot relish the enormous loss of life that total war will bring. I could give a rip about how lopsided it will be, that's the price of admission for 9-11, Bali, 3-11 and Beslan. Those who try to jab a tiger with pointed sticks deserve what they get in return.
Somewhere in the recesses of my once peaceful mind is the hope that by killing off the high-profile exhorters of jihad, fewer gullible minds will get sucked into this insanely poisonous meme.
Should such a tactic prove to be of no use, then a direct transition to total war will likely be the only alternative. The difficult part is that I see no use in accepting any surrender after such war begins. The time for Islam to surrender up its jihadis is NOW.
Once the global war begins, it will need to be a process of complete extermination. This is why surrender will necessarily fall by the wayside. I hate how ugly such thoughts are. I DO NOT hate the notion of actual peace resulting from it.
"The only interim phase I wish Western governments would try is to begin capping rectal cavities like abu Hamza, al Qaradawi, al Sadr and any other of these jihad mouthpieces walking around wasting our precious oxygen.
It's one of the last remaining experiments I can envision besides total war."
When turning a raw peice of wood on the lathe, knocking off the corners is, indeed, the first step - so I follow. I'd just like to take out the whole nest when you find one of these little figureheads of insanity. And, when the gas (or whatever) has dissipated / stopped falling from the sky, go through their wallets, cell phones, etc., then their apartments, homes, caves... And everyone related to every one of them, since this is often a family affair. Then everyone they kept track of, by phone or address or name or in a computer file or in their dreams. Just a tiny add-on to your idea.
Pre-emptive question (lol!): Do you want fries with that? Heh.
#30
I'd just like to take out the whole nest when you find one of these little figureheads of insanity.
Which is why they should have just demolished the Finsbury Park mosque once it was condemned the first time around.
And, when the gas (or whatever) has dissipated / stopped falling from the sky, go through their wallets, cell phones, etc., then their apartments, homes, caves...
SOP
And everyone related to every one of them, since this is often a family affair.
This is my argument for making terrorist activity a DNA crime. I honestly think the idea has a lot of merit.
Then everyone they kept track of, by phone or address or name or in a computer file or in their dreams. Just a tiny add-on to your idea.
No "add on," pal. Part and parcel. I'm glad to see us finding some common ground here, .com. I feel it to be a crucial ingredient in what's to come. For the upcoming war to find the legs its going to need amongst America's population, a lot more people will have to begin reading off of the same page. We may run with different crowds, but I only wish you could hear how often I get told to "stop talking about politics all the time" by people who can't seem to come up with the least sort of functional solution to terrorism. I know, I know, I need to get a better class of friends.
#31
At a small terminal in the Texas Panhandle, three strangers are awaiting their shuttle flight. One is a Native American passing through from Oklahoma. Another, a local ranch hand on his way to Ft. Worth for a stock show. The third passenger is an Arab student, newly arrived at the Texas oil patch from the Middle East.
To pass the time they strike up a conversation on recent events, and the discussion drifts to their diverse cultures. Soon, the Westerners learn that the Arab is a devout Muslim. The conversation falls into an uneasy lull. The cowpoke leans back in his chair, crosses his boots on a magazine table, tips his big sweat-stained hat forward over his face. The wind outside blows tumbleweeds and the old windsock flaps, but no plane comes.
Finally, the Native American clears his throat and softly, he speaks: 'Once my people were many, Now we are few.'
The Muslim raises an eyebrow and leans forward, 'Once my people were few,' he sneers, 'and now we are many. Why do you suppose that is?'
The Texan shifts the toothpick to one side of his mouth and from the darkness beneath his stetson says, 'That's 'cause we ain't played Cowboys and Muslims yet.'
#32
Zen - I'm sure that the real world intruding upon friendships indicates there's something less than a friendship in progress - I've lost quite a few over the last 3 years - and gained double (and more) that number because they are on the same page - all in all, I think we're getting there. The hard days are coming - and the weak willies will only get in the way, anyway. It will be in our faces soon enough, I'm afraid. Then we'll know for certain who's a fool and who's our ally.
BTW, it truly feels odd to have given up on them. One great weight exchanged for another. This one is different, but in some ways easier to bear... not so much gray haze, methinks.
#33
Nanook - Lol! Too true... When you find the real Texan (lotsa drugstore cowboy types, as with all sterotypes) you find someone who can get off the dime and decide.
I saw in another thread that in your childhood you lived in Czechoslovakia - I presume you're now one of the Evil Americans? I sure hope so! Nanook - you must live up North somewhere? Lol, if so, you sure have a tag on the Texans, heh! I was born there, but I've been afloat for so long, well, I don't have any rights to stake claims anymore! Regardless, people like you are who make America great - the opposite of what the featherheads think we are. The best of the Best: Resolute. Strong. Knowledgeable. Experienced. Thanx!
#34
.com, it is like a Darwinism in real time. Some humans simply are becoming another species (corpus calosum is not present or receding). It is not yet with a marked boundary, some can still cross over. The Morlocks... ah well, you know what I am talking about.
So we're the Eloi? Oops - better get nasty fast, eh? Lol! Actually, that fits the situation perfectly - so my question is dumb. My conclusion is good, however. I'm there. Beslan just completed the circle for me.
#36
.com, Well yea, I live in NA (Canuckistan), but I'll plan to switch allegiances and countries in the near future. Lived in TX for about 2 years. I love Texas, people in fact, rather than scenery. I'll be probably going to OK, but TX is just one state border away.
#37
.com, I think that I had the fry'em up moment right on 9/11. I was already fairly well acquainted with the jihad before that, not mentioning that in the place of my birth, the advances of Islam (and its defeat) are still in the collective memory--it was present in the folk tales and fairy tales of my mom.
West of Czech realm, there was no such memory--that's why they are almost completely oblivious to the takeover which is coming. Not individuals, there is enough bright people who get it, but as a whole WE nations simply don't have a precedent they can draw from (xept Spain, but the memory trace is not that fresh). They're doomed, I say.
#38
Nanook - Awesome - Welcome! Doubly, so! I'm sure there are some Okies around here - and a mess o' Texans, too. If you're from Western Canuckistan, Texans would probably seem pretty normal. I LOVED the Calgary Stampede and the Canucks I met in the awl bidness, heh. I'm in Nevada at the moment - decided to hang until I cast my vote, THEN I'll bail and seek something that doesn't remind me so much of Saudi Arabia. Dumb to have stopped here.
#39
Nanook - Oops, per your last post I'm sure that the jihadis will repeat 9/11 once or twice more before "we" all get it. I lost my silly romantic notions in Saudi. Went there all big-eyed like a kid - came home with a massive reality dose to digest. Went back again - and it was even worse. Hell, they had put their best foot forward that first trip over. Second time, 2000-2003, there was no pretense. So I got a jump-start and understand why most in the West can't quite swallow that big lump, yet. Speaks well of our tolerance, but poorly of our ability to reason. All the signs are there, but "we" still cling to our hopes. Such is life.
No doubt the jihadis will ty to pull a nasty one or two on US soil. They may misunderstand certain traits of a Westerner, but the important factor is that they can interpret the instituted tolerance as simply weakness and lack of self-preservation. In a sense, they are right, as the leftist moral relativism has strong suicidal undertones. And that is the geographical area they'd strike, the leftist strongholds. More bang for a buck, so to speak, or points of least resistance.
There is no other way than let things run their own course. I may not like it a bit, but I learned to accept it. Wrote off Western Europe, the smell of pre-mortum rot was setting in when I left in early 80's, already. Eastern Europe has still a backbone and good self-preservation instinct, forced to grow under the stranglehold of their commie masters, not a whole generation ago. They will find a way and will to fight.
The world does not know (let alone appreciate) yet how lucky it is that the Jacksonian spirit is prevalent in US.
#41
I read this thread, and I wept. Because I agree that the next step may well have to be total war, and the decision point will come very soon.
Damn them!
#42
Nanook - Arrggghh! Went to bed 15 min too soon. You are so accurate that you've left me little to play with, lol! Regards Eastern Europe - the Bush admin is perfectly in-synch with you. Kerry, I'm afraid, would toss them to the dogs for one head pat from Chirac. Shroeder will be gone soon, and if TGA is right (Lol - when is he actually wrong?!!?) we will see a sea-change in Germany leading to excellent cooperation and far less baiting. But Kerry is the fly in the WoT ointment, for Bush is the man with a plan. Kerry has no definable philosophy that I can ken, except pandering. He certainly knows nothing of Jacksonianism. He may be a throwback to Lindbergh - with a boatload of add-on inanities (French Fascination - Think he read too much Hemingway?) - have we come full circle, i.e. Right = Left, in 85 yrs? Or, as my own tendency toward Occam's Razor demands, in my crude vernacular, is Kerry just a "guiltless glider" - a confabulation of miscreant tendencies such as the self-hating / suicidal fools you pointed out - a biological box canyon mentality - who wants to lead us into his personal abyss. It may be simpler - perhaps he just a kid who was always awkward and lonely, *sniff*, and needs a hug... but because the's also got Hitlerian delusions of grandeur, it's gotta be a global hug, heh. Regardless of the label, I've no doubt he's a jackass and moron dressed in a monkey-man suit. Lol! I'm not sure - but I sense he's as dangerous as putting a rattler into the baby's crib.
Oops, bloviating - sorry.
BTW, I can't belieeeeeve you're giving up the BC area for the Southwest! Here I am yearning for precisely that environment - and to get out of the aridity and heavy A/C - it boggles! You can find the same sort of people (the Texans will whack me for this, heh) in Montana and Wyoming. Self-everything, confident, tough, smart but unpretentious, lol! Yep I'll get bashed. I worked at a Dude Ranch up in Wyoming and lived in Utah when I was in mid teens - I think you'd love Jackson Hole! The town that produced Evel Knievel can't be all "bad", eh? I'm trying to remember a place in OK which turned out to be really nice... Damn - getting too old. Prolly on the Cherokee reservation, anyway, lol!
Sorry I missed this last night - and I apologize for being so windy this AM! One thing is certain: Welcome - welcome! We need you to just be yourself - and help stir the pot, lol!
#43
tw - I read some of your posts with great fascination. I don't get 5% of the Jewish references, but then I'm an atheist who was dragged through about 20 different Christian / semi-Christian churches as a kid while we moved all over creation. Much like being an Army brat - with my mother (thrice divorced) on a serious personal religious bender. My point is that on all other topics, your posts strike me as something of a moral compass - a fair and honest position, open to ideas, but with strong conviction for the ideas you hold dear. You're an excellent example - especially for the vulgar and scarred people like me. Thank you - I am prolly too far gone, myself, but I appreciate reading your honesty. You've got the Fair & Balanced thing nailed. I envy you, when I'm not pissed off, heh. It pained me to read your reaction to this thread - I hope my feigned laughter did not put you off too much or add to your unhappiness. I'm an insensitive lout and hardcore realist. We will see many many thousands, prolly tens of thousands (they only have to get it right once...) die before we are forced to go medievel. And I honestly don't doubt that day is coming. Cherished sentiments and lofty ideals will be blown away - along with our countrymen. I'll be one of the nasty old guys who volunteers to do sniper duty in the ruins. Too old to have kids, I'll even take the high-rads sector. Peace to you and yours.
Qur'an 9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an 8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."
Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"
Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us."
Ishaq:578 "Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet's fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory."
Qur'an 2:193 "Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers."
This is just a taste of what Muhammad wrote. AND YOU WONDER WHY THE TRUE FOLLOWERS OF allan are so fanatical and dangerous.
Leaders belonging to the Jamiat Ulema-i-Islam of Maulana Fazlur Rehman said at a meeting here that the military operation against innocent tribesmen in Waziristan Agency and raids on seminaries were pitting the people against the armed forces. They warned that the situation might turn explosive any time. Although held under the banner of Mutahidda Majlis-i-Amal, the meeting was attended only by leaders and workers of the JUI(F). The response from the public was poor although JUI workers had been making announcements through loudspeakers in mosques and bazars for four days. At least 80 people gathered at the tomb of Hazrat Haji Bahadar and, after marching through the main bazaar, assembled at the Shah Faisal Gate where local leaders addressed them.
(They know that Fazlul Fucks Goats, they were protecting their Goats)
The participants raised slogans against the government and asked President Gen Pervez Musharraf to step down in the larger interest of the country. They accused him of following the western agenda. (yeah Musharraf why dont you start fucking Goats)
They said that innocent people were being killed in South Waziristan and warned of serious repercussions of the operation. Maulana Abdul Hayee, JUI(F) Kohat's secretary-general, said that recent killings in Wana were creating a situation which would get out of hand. He recalled that even the British could not conquer the Wazir and Masud tribesmen despite their military might and were ousted from the area after a six-year war. He advised the government not to try to conquer "its own people" by bombing them. (Goat Power)
Others who spoke on the occasion were Pir Munim Shah, Maulana Mujeebur Rehman and Qari Zainul Abideen.
(all noted for their goat fucking prowess)
Through a unanimously passed resolution, the JUI activists vowed that they would thwart the Western designs. They condemned the recent raid on the madressah run by Hafiz Hussain Ahmed.
Bo hohoho Goat fucker.
#1
It is good to note that very few people turned up. What I would really like to see is people kicking and beating mullahs in the streets (and maye liberating their goats). Whats the story behind goat fucking any way????
#2
this may be awfully crude but the original condom was made of goat intestines, i.e. the goatskin.
As the Old joke goes, In _____ county (fill in the blank)Men are men and goats are scared.
Maybe it has something to do with the, Size of the Female parts
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/13/2004 21:18 Comments ||
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#4
I thought it was sheep. But perhaps its just that the further west you go, the bigger the key domesticated animal becomes. An anthropological puzzle, to be sure.
Mr. Fawad, welcome to Rantburg! This post is interesting, but I would appreciate it if you would try for a little more variety (and perhaps a little less crudity) in your interlineal comments. And one does have to be careful...muck4doo's website theme song is entitled "Cows with Guns," and mighty thought provoking it is, too.
Again, welcome! We're always glad to have another thoughtful member :-)
#5
Thanks, I will be more subtle in future, maybe the theme of my commentary will be similar, but the choice of words will be more appropriate.No more blunt & crude. (appologies too)
#6
Trailing wife, your correct the original joke is about sheep but i had to switch it, sorry for the bad post i was feeling frisky, the original joke is about west va. but thats not important sorry for being crude... just a funny post i felt its nice to have some hilarity in these trying times
#7
Darling men, I don't have a problem with the crudeness as such! If I did, I wouldn't have been able to hang around long enough to learn any of the cool things y'all discuss!! (Besides, you probably would be shocked at how much my passive vocabulary has been enlarged since I started lurking here.)
No, no, I just thought that the 2nd goat fucking reference adequately underlined Fawad's point, and I'm sure that he has a great deal more to add than just that. And I wanted to find out what.
#9
You forgot the ladder. otherwise it will be an anatomically impossible feat.Will make a nice cover theme for ARABIAN NIGHTS a man, a camel and a ladder
#10
Fawad, you know nothing of such things. You've apparently never seen a camel fold it magnificent legs to rest. (An upside-down bucket or basket is all you need, if your stature is somewhat lacking in height).
#11
This is all my fault, isn't it? Oh, well, having learned quite enough for one night (and thoroughly lost my temper on another thread, sorry!), I now heigh myself off to bed.
EFL
In Bay Area classrooms, Sept. 11 isn't exactly Sept. 11 anymore. "Nobody feels the need to show students any more pictures of airplanes going into buildings," said Susan Stewart, who teaches 10th-grade government at Palo Alto High School. "I don't know that it's very constructive for people to wallow in that."
"Best just to forget about it and move on. I mean, all those people are dead now..."
On the first anniversary, classrooms everywhere imposed moments of silence, organized poetry readings or encouraged students to compose messages on butcher paper so that they might express grief for the victims of terrorism and anger at the perpetrators. On the second anniversary, there were the moments of silence but only the occasional butcher-paper exercise. Now, three years and a lot of military bloodshed after Sept. 11, teachers say they are more interested in having students consider the rapidly unfolding events of the day than to dwell on the tragedy. "To what extent are the events of 9/11 being used as a platform for the upcoming presidential election? To what extent should they be?"
When did we become interested in children's opinions on "should"?
Those are questions that teachers at San Francisco's Leadership High School came up with a few weeks ago as they thought ahead to the infamous anniversary. The questions are listed under the heading "Practicing Critical Thinking," and on Monday afternoon, the entire school will spend an hour considering those and similar questions.
An entire hour? I'm so impressed!
Amy Punkar, chairwoman of the social studies department at Jefferson High in Daly City, plans to pose two questions to her advanced-placement U.S. history class: "What has changed globally since 9/11?" and "What are some of the political consequences within the United States since then?" (Punkar's hint to students reading this -- think civil rights.)
Okay. I'm thinking civil rights. Nothing comes to mind... No! Wait! Here's something! Islamists hate black people and consider them slaves. So I'll be the teachers are having them read up on the genocide in Dafur. Am I right?
Elsewhere, teachers are looking for new ways of building global events into their curriculum. One of the more striking examples took place in Room 201 on Thursday afternoon at Washington High School in San Francisco, where teacher Martin Wolf deftly transformed a discussion of plot, setting and character in "The Lion King" into a focus on plot, setting and character on the world stage.
"Don'tcha feel the lo-oo-o-o-ove tonight!"
"In Iraq, we also have a setting," Wolf told the 10th-graders in his ethnic literature class, pointing out that the conflict, complications and climax of fiction are no less present in Baghdad and Washington. "Yesterday, George Bush said that the 1,000 soldiers who have died in Iraq died fighting terrorism," Wolf said. "I wonder -- did they? Does George Bush believe this? Let's go back . . . "
Good idea! Let's go back!... Ummm... Regressing... It's three years ago... Aircraft slamming into twin towers... war in Afghanistan... riots in Pakistan... perfidy in Arabia... Jund al-Islam... Moscow theater... Bali bombings... Abu Nidal bumped off... Security Council... "Sammy, we'll defend you with our blood!"... inspectors... human shields... ultimatum... invasion... no more Republican Guard... the kiddy jail... the mass graves... Uday and Qusay, deader'n Guy Fawkes... Sammy at the bottom of an outdoor toilet... Zarqawi... de Melho dead... Yep. I'm sure Bush believes it. Pretty smart, those San Francisco teachers, explaining it to the kiddies this way...
In perhaps his most dramatic segue, Wolf got the students to step into the minds of world leaders and terrorists, however briefly, by asking them to recall "The Lion King" protagonist (Simba) and its antagonist (Scar) and asking who the corresponding figures are in politics today. "George Bush and George Bush," said Victor Wu, 15, a born diplomat.
Boy, the teachers must be quite a bit brighter than their students in San Francisco. That's a pretty dumb statement...
Some students put Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry on one side and Bush on the other, while Wolf asked if Osama bin Laden might not be cast in the role of antagonist. "All that's missing is the denouement," he said, writing "denouement" on the blackboard.
It hasn't happened yet. You'll have to be patient...
Later, Gwendolyn Samson, 15, said she found the lesson valuable because she hadn't known that Iraq was not responsible for Sept. 11.
No, child. Something else was responsible for 9-11. Sammy just happened to be on the same team as the guys responsible for 9-11. When you play football, you have to take out more than just the quarterback. When you play basketball you have to cover more than just the center. When you make war you don't take out only the enemy's forward elements.
Students like Gwendolyn were his "target audience," Wolf said -- the reason the lesson was important. "We need to be an informed citizenry," Wolf said. "I'm planting the seeds. "
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 7:51:26 PM ||
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#1
"Now, three years and a lot of military bloodshed after Sept. 11, teachers say they are more interested in having students consider the rapidly unfolding events of the day than to dwell on the tragedy."That means they are talking about Beslan, right?
"One of the more striking examples took place in Room 201 on Thursday afternoon at Washington High School in San Francisco, where teacher Martin Wolf deftly transformed a discussion of plot, setting and character in "The Lion King" into a focus on plot, setting and character on the world stage."I am struck by the fact that this High School is using the Lion King as an example. At least my leftist High School would have used Richard II.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/13/2004 22:54 Comments ||
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#2
I hope there are still smart ass students in high school these days to make fun of teachers like these, hopefully the students arent all in a ritalin induced stupor, easier to brainwash you with my dear.
But with that Lion King reference, I'm thinking ritalin induced stupor.
From the Dept. of WTF????
THE land-locked West Bank may seem an unlikely place to situate a naval base, but for Palestinians without land for a state perhaps it is fitting to have a navy without a sea.
Only the small anchors painted in black on the stucco barracks of the Palestinian Naval Police in Jericho recall the sea. Nearby are parched Judean desert hills, including the biblical Mount of Temptation, and the oldest city in the world, sleepy Jericho, itself surrounded on all sides by the Israeli army.
Inside the cramped base, things are hardly on a war footing. An unarmed young naval policeman, wearing khaki camouflage fatigues, greets his visitor and starts preparing the obligatory watery black coffee.
In base commander Lieutenant-Colonel Hatim Hassan's office, overseen by a framed poster of a smiling Yasser Arafat, the television is tuned to an Arabic music station.
"Our relation with the sea is very weak because the Israelis control the sea and we don't have the capacity to go into the business of the sea," Lt-Col Hassan admits.
Back in the days of the PLO, the naval police, founded in 1968 in Latakia, Syria, specialised in training for seaborne attacks on Israeli civilian targets. Its last such operation was in 1985, when frogmen on their way to carry out an attack were intercepted by the Israeli navy.
More recently, the naval police came to prominence when its officers were implicated in 2002 in the attempted smuggling to Gaza of a large stash of weapons aboard a ship, the Karine A, that was seized in the Red Sea by the Israeli navy.
What was once envisaged as the navy for an independent state is now a special forces police unit that acts according to Yasser Arafat's whim.
"The doctrine of the naval police is to show all loyalty to the decisions of the president," says Lt-Col Hassan, 43, whose dream was to captain a commercial ship.
Its policing role and loyalty to Mr Arafat explains why the navy has bases in Jericho, Nablus, Bethlehem and Hebron in the West Bank, set up by presidential order in 1995.
There are 1,500 men in the naval police, making it one of the smaller forces among the often competing 11 security branches at Mr Arafat's disposal. Mr Arafat, under pressure from calls for reform, issued a presidential decree in July that the security forces would be merged into three bodies, a move that would terminate the naval police as an independent force. But analysts say he is loathe to give up his ability to divide and rule security forces.
"To give up that card means he is left completely naked," says Mahdi Abdul Hadi, director of the Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs.
In Gaza, after the 1993 Oslo Agreement, the naval police had a few ships ostensibly to patrol against smuggling in the shadow of the Israeli navy, but their main job was to fight challenges to Mr Arafat's rule. "We acted against the Fatah Hawks, we had to have an iron fist, we had clashes against Hamas as well," says Lt-Col Hassan.
"The goal is always to restore order in the worst conditions. When it is the worst conditions, we move in," he adds.
Lieutenant Akram Farid, 24, pipes up: "With one section of 30 to 50 men we can restore order anywhere."
This has hardly been tested recently. With chaos prevailing across the Gaza Strip and parts of the West Bank in the form of inter-Palestinian assassinations, attacks on security posts and the rule in some areas of the al-Aksa brigades, there have been increasing Palestinian calls on Mr Arafat to "restore order". But the naval police are waiting for an order that is not coming.
Meanwhile, the idea of a Palestinian navy has been shelved. "Our ambition is to live in peace and security, not to have a navy. We have forgotten about that," says Lt-Col Hassan.
#3
Lt. Col Hassan has put in 1,436 hrs of OT this year as well...
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/13/2004 15:58 Comments ||
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#4
So does this mean that Euros are funding the Paleo Navy? Where does the funding come from? Maybe the Arafish, cause he would be buying loyalty. My next question is what in hell do they do all day there?
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
09/13/2004 16:52 Comments ||
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I imagine they sit around polishing their dinghies...
Found this via the excellent Logic and Sanity website. Forgive me if it has been posted before....
The families of the three IDF soldiers who were kidnapped by Hezbollah have announced their intention to file a suit against the United Nations and the Hezbollah organization. Iran, Syria and Lebanon will also be sued in view of their support of the Lebanese terror group. Note: The UN is being sued for their support of the terrorist kidnapping and the murder of the IDF Soldiers.
The suit will be filed in a US court by relatives of Beni Avraham, Adi Avitan and Omar Sawaed, eight months after their bodies were returned to Israel for burial as part of the prisoner swap deal with Hezbollah.
The three families confirmed their intentions in a conversation with NRG Maariv. "On Sunday, we will hold a press conference at Sokolov House in Tel Aviv, during which we will say all that we have to say". Ya'akov Avitan, father of Adi, said.
Since the October 2000 abductions, Israel and the families have expressed outrage over the UN's inability to prevent the kidnappings.
In July 2001, it was revealed that UNIFIL soldiers filmed Hezbollah operatives as they were transferring the three IDF troops, about 18 hours after they were kidnapped, from a distance of barely 20 km from point of abduction.
In addition, it became evident that several UN soldiers knew that the Lebanese terror group intends to kidnap IDF soldiers from the area of the Shaba Farms and had even been paid off by the Hezbollah in order to turn a blind eye.
Israeli officials were also infuriated over the fact that the UN had hidden a tape that was filmed during the abduction and demanded of UN Secretary General Kofi Annan to use that tape in order to help determine the fate of the soldiers. Only after a long struggle, the UN allowed Israeli officials to view the tape, but only four times.
More proof that the UN is on the terrorist's side. Time to get out of the UN and get the UN out of the US.
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/13/2004 22:06 Comments ||
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#6
On-topic - While no fan of jury-award-justice, since I don't believe money is the answer to all wrongs, I would not cry if they had to "economize" to cover awards. Of course, everyone knows the UN cretins would just add the payouts to their next budget - and expect us to pay the tab - i.e. no change in their behavior. Thus, it would not have the desired effect, in the end.
Responding to a series of deadly terror attacks, President Vladimir Putin on Monday moved to significantly strengthen the Kremlin's grip on power, with new measures that include the naming of regional governors and an overhaul of the electoral system. Putin told Cabinet members and security officials convened in special session that the future of Russia was at stake and urged the creation of a central, powerful anti-terror agency. "The organizers and perpetrators of the terror attack are aiming at the disintegration of the state, the breakup of Russia," he said. "We need a single organization capable of not only dealing with terror attacks but also working to avert them, destroy criminals in their hideouts, and if necessary, abroad."
He said he would propose legislation abolishing the election of local governors by popular vote. Instead, they would be nominated by the president and confirmed by local legislatures - a move that would undo the remaining vestiges of the local autonomy already chipped away by Putin during his first term in office.
Putin explained his move by the need to streamline and strengthen the executive branch to make it more capable of combating terror. His critics immediately assailed the proposal as a self-destructive effort that could fuel dissent in the provinces. "The abolition of elections in the Russian regions deals a blow to the foundations of Russian federalism and means the return to the extremely inefficient system of government," said Sergei Mitrokhin, a leading member of the liberal Yabloko party.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
09/13/2004 1:10:34 PM ||
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#1
Most of Russia's regional governors are thuggish bandits who are no more friends of democracy than the clownish autocrats ruling ex-FSU states like Aliyev and other Central Asian overlords. Typically, in Ekat or other siberian regions, the governor and his posse own a controlling stake in the major cash-generating industries of the region, dominate the courts, and muzzle or kill off critical voices in the media. There's no "democracy" to preserve there, just a power struggle between the distant boyars and the tsar in Moscow.
Russia's failing, folks. Pakistan with white faces and black shirts. FSB's thieves and their machincations in Iran are nearly as dangerous to our interests as the ISI. We need to help the Russian state succeed because if it fails, we're screwed.
#3
Let's not believe Putin's claims that this is happening in response to the Beslan attacks -- as the article itself notes it's simply the end-result of the process he started long ago, in his bid for dictatorship.
Lex, between dictatorship and disentegration I see no way for the Russian state to "succeed" by western standards. There perhaps once existed a way for a democratic united Russia -- but Putin has now extinguished that possibility, during his lifetime atleast.
#4
In my view, Democracy and freedom must be instilled in a people and passed down from generation to generation. Russia has never known true democracy. The only flirtation prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union was after the 1917 revolution before the Bolsheviks took control.
An autocratic government is what is ingrained in the Russian psyche. Probably works better in a country the size of Russia anyway. We just need it to be a capitalist autrocratic government.
#5
There perhaps once existed a way for a democratic united Russia -- but Putin has now extinguished that possibility, during his lifetime atleast.
Oh, spare me such bullshit. Remember this above all: Russia will never be both united and democratic, and things in Russia are never as good or as bad as they seem.
Some degree of free expression and a fair degree of private property rights are the best anyone can hope for there. To say that Putin "extinguished that possibility" is to indulge in the kind of ridiculous and extremist blather that westerners always do about Russia. It's either The-Coming-Russian-ECONOMIC-BOOM with libbetry n justice fer all or else it's Vlad the Terrible. The truth is that Russia's different and will never be fully democratic and prosperous. It's an extraordinarily difficult country to govern, and no one has ever governed it well.
Russia's regional governors have controlled their fiefdoms and thumbed their noses at Moscow for hundreds of years. Herzen's Autobiography passages describing his first encounters with these bandits as an internal exile in the 1840s could have been written today.
#6
Remember this above all: Russia will never be both united and democratic
Because you've looked hundreds and thousands of years into the future and you know that Russia will *never* be blah-and-blah.
You are calling bullshit the belief that a democratic Russia might one day exist? Spare me your bullshit that it "never" can. People that use the word "never" with such certainty, tend to have views of "never" that hardly ever extend beyond the present decade.
Around the world dozens of countries experience democracy when they never had before. Taiwan. South Korea. When had these ever been democratic, before they became?
#7
Around the world dozens of countries experience democracy when they never had before. Taiwan. South Korea. When had these ever been democratic, before they became?
What those two and probably all the others also have in common is a strong link to the United States either through mutual friendship or America kicking their ass in a war. Russia has had neither of these.
Russia has been ruled by opressive autocrats since the formation of the Muscovy Principality in the 1300s. Over 700 years is a lot of generations under the iron boot of the Tsars or General Secretaries.
#8
Sure, it's possible that the Russian Federation could become a full-fledged democracy, just extremely unlikely. Moscow cannot even project authority into its distant regions, let alone effective order, which is a condition for democracy. What's much more likely is the devolution of the Russian Far East regions into de facto Chinese satellites, leaving Siberia and western and parts of southern Russia to form a more or less pro-western, much smaller entity with Moscow at its core.
#9
What are the forces that would cause the Russian Far East to break away? I believe they are strongly predominantly Russian in ethnicity so plain nationalism wouldn't cut it-- and as you say separation would cause them to inevitably turn into Chinese satellites. So, what would be the motivation for such separation?
#10
Aris, would you care to point out where lex said the Russian Far East would "break away"? He only mentioned them becoming Chinese satellites, which doesn't require them to break away from Russia first.
Why are you asking someone to defend a position you invented?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
09/13/2004 19:37 Comments ||
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#11
That's how they debate in Greece.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 19:41 Comments ||
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#12
If he didn't mean that, then I apologize, but I *assumed* that "leaving Siberia and western and parts of southern Russia to form a much smaller entity with Moscow at its core", meant that those regions would be the only thing that'd be left of Russia, aka the Far East regions would *break away*.
Else I'm at loss to understand what this "smaller entity" would be (if not a smaller country/federation/confederation), and I again beg for an explanation.
Crawford would you be so kind as to let lex himself explain what he meant, rather than make your own assumptions about his words?
And Mrs Davis, would you stop being the ethnic jabs chorus and try to occasionally display some hints of sentience?
#13
Crawford would you be so kind as to let lex himself explain what he meant, rather than make your own assumptions about his words?
Touchy, aren't you, Aris? You *assumed* something so that you could attack a strawman.
And, Aris, there's a difference between "breaking away" and "being stripped away". Becoming Chinese satellites sounds more like the latter to me. But we'll let lex explain, now that you've decided that's the best course.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
09/13/2004 20:02 Comments ||
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#14
Well, Aris, this time I have to agree with you that Lex's scenario requires clarification.
"and try to occasionally display some hints of sentience"
Well, well, Aris... I think that could be applied to you too. The only occassional hints of sentience are present in this thread, but beside that and some more I could count on fingers of one hand, you need to remember that suggestion when posting as well.
#15
Aris, I assume he means that the Far East of Russia is only loosely populated (under 10 million), while just accross the border there are hundreds of millions of Chinese. Given the aging population in Russia, there is a need for immigrants, and most of them have come from China.
It is not hard to see ethnic Chinese becoming a majority in the area in a generation or two, which at the least could mean that the local government takes a pro-China position.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
09/13/2004 20:10 Comments ||
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#16
3.2 on the derail. Piss poor Aris. I expect better.
#17
Aris, it was political. A statement about Greece. Just like you make digs constantly at America. If it had been ethnic it would have been "That's how Greeks debate" as applicable to Greeks in America as in Greece.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 20:21 Comments ||
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#18
Crawford, if I assumed something wrongly, then I atleast assumed lex meaning something differently that he meant in his *words*. Now you are assuming so horrible *motivations* of mine.
If I am a bad reader, then you are definitely a most horrible telepath.
Zarathustra, if I ever mindlessly chorus "Just what an American would say", the same way I'm receiving all those Greece-jabs from the various non-sentient automatons here, I'm hereby granting you permission to shoot me dead -- it'll be a mercy kill: I'll have also failed the sentience test.
Paul> Is there a significant emigration factor from China, then -- and by significant we mean in the millions? Chinese population is more or less stable, I believe, and unless there's a collapse of *China* (possible but currently unforseeable) the numbers needed for such a majority shift, seem improbable to me.
#19
Mrs Davis -- the moment I claim that Greece is superior to America, you are free to attack Greece and call it relevant to my wider arguments as part of an effort on your part to prove me a hypocrite.
Until that time, your attacks on Greece when it is not relevant on a thread, are nothing but a reference to my ethnicity, and thus an ethnic jab. Or should I think that my being a Greek had *nothing* to do with your reference to Greece and you might have just as well said "That's how they do it in Iceland"?
#22
Back on topic, Russians in the Amur River and other border regions of the Far East are now learning Chiinese-- note that's actually learning real, practical Chinese for daily use, not studying it in adult education classes so as to fill time or meet members of the opposite sex.
It's all about economic survival. The far east Russians are deeply dependent on Chinese suppliers, Chinese customers, Chinese bosses in many cases. Note also that Russia's birthrate and even her population overall are actually falling. A shrinking and-- forget oil prices, focus on manufacturing-- economically stagnant Russian Far East will inevitably fall under Chinese influence.
How on earth could any Moscow-based leader halt this trend AND protect Russia's southern flank AND provide greater democracy and debate AND stimulate competitive export-oriented industries to ensure growth when oil falls to $25/bbl again and....?
Again, Russia's barely governable even under the most optimal conditions. A Russian collapse, like a Pakistani collapse, would be catastrophic for the free nations. We need Russia to survive as a viable, defensible, reliable, effective entity. Expanding democracy in Russia is secondary to the above.
EFL
A billboard bearing Saddam Hussein's blasted-away face still welcomes motorists to the city once honored - now stigmatized - as his hometown. But these days Tikritis show little of the ex-dictator's storied defiance of the U.S. military. Tikrit was the epicenter of Iraq's Baath Party hierarchy and the al-Nassiri tribe that filled the party's upper ranks, making this city an important U.S. invasion target and a rebellious occupation conquest. But in the past few months, Tikrit has quietly slipped off the map of Iraq's trouble spots. "Tikrit is what we'd call permissive. It's not wholly antagonistic to us anymore," said Lt. Col. Jim Stockmoe, intelligence officer for the 1st Infantry Division, the Army unit that controls Tikrit and a surrounding West Virginia-sized slab of northeast Iraq. Stockmoe, puffing a cigar outside his office in one of Saddam's grandiose palaces, said the U.S. military had finally reached a "live and let live" arrangement with Tikritis. For their part, city residents say they want the Americans out, but they seem to have mostly given up supporting insurgents trying to force them out. "For me Saddam is history," said Thamir Ahmed, a 32-year-old engineer in Tikrit. "He and his name have nothing to do with our city now." This is a nice little story if you can read past the obligatory AP negative spin. Of course those people don't want us there, but when does anyone want foreign powers controlling their streets? Tikrit "gets it", and that says alot for the indiginous Iraqis vs. the so-called "insurgent" Iraqis, who are mostly from neighboring states anyway. Thanks AP. You said more than you meant to here.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
09/13/2004 9:29:33 AM ||
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#1
Probably all the bad guys went to Tal Afar to prevent being cut off from their source of everything in Syria.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
09/13/2004 10:46 Comments ||
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#2
and many of the bad guys are "dead"
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/13/2004 10:47 Comments ||
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#3
I think the denizens of Tikrit have a genetic understanding of real politic.
#6
you stupid idiots you have just lost ..eliminated over a 1000 us soldiers and you bastards are still ranting ...get your asses of your chairs and join the army ...us army ................
SEOUL, South Korea (AP) - Sudan's foreign minister on Monday strongly criticized Secretary of State Colin Powell for saying ethnic violence in western Sudan amounted to genocide. Foreign Minister Mustafa Osman Ismail, who is visiting South Korea to promote trade, also condemned Powell's call for the United Nations to consider economic sanctions against Sudan. He accused the United States of focusing on Sudan in order to divert the attention of American voters from fighting in Iraq ahead of the U.S. presidential election in November. "This is a politicized agenda for the election," said Ismail. He said "politicized". Take note, quiz later.
"Marvin!"
"Yes, Mr. Secretary?"
"Where are those plans for the Republic of Eastern Arabia?"
"Being updated right now, sir."
"It would be very difficult for the U.S. or the Security Council of the United Nations to pass any sanctions on Sudan, unfortunately" he said, citing opposition from some countries in the U.N. Ismail urged African countries to help Sudan reach a peace agreement. On Thursday, Powell testified in the U.S. Congress that the chaos in the west of Africa's largest country amounts to genocide by the government-backed ethnic Arab militias against the region's black African Sudanese. And if Powell is saying it, that means it's safe to assume that 99% of interested nations believe it too. Powell is nothing if not "cautious" in his public criticisms.
In a statement released by its embassy in Seoul, Sudan said Powell's conclusion was "flawed, regrettable and dismaying; it is tantamount to the blunder of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq." Remember the "politicized" comment? I knew you would.
Raids by government soldiers and the Janjaweed militias have killed 30,000 people and left 1.2 million homeless in 19 months. The United Nations considers it the world's worst current humanitarian crisis but have no plans to get off their asses and do anyting about it. The finding of genocide was based on interviews by State Department specialists with 1,136 refugees in neighboring Chad, where they had fled from Darfur. The interviews found a "consistent and widespread pattern of atrocities committed against non-Arab villagers," a department report said. The Sudanese embassy statement said the report was "based on partial observations by an American team that had never set foot in Darfur and interviewed politicized individual refugees in Eastern Chad." Dan Rather works for the Sudanese embassy? Who knew?
Posted by: Chris W. ||
09/13/2004 9:21:20 AM ||
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COALITION forces in Iraq are building a network of 350 forts along its borders in an attempt to keep out foreign terrorists and intelligence agents who they blame for inspiring the current insurgency. Work has already started on 40 of the forts, which Britain's most senior officer in Iraq, General John McColl, described as "like something out of Beau Geste".
The forts will be built along all of Iraq's borders, although senior officers admit their presence is largely symbolic and will not stop anyone determined enough to cross into the country. As well as the forts, coalition commanders are relying on the fledgling Iraqi police and armed forces to step up efforts at border control. But the Iraqi forces are still poorly paid and equipped, and lack either the means or the willingness to tackle heavily armed and committed insurgent forces. British soldiers in Iraq also believe that some Iraqi border guards turn a blind eye to foreign entrants in exchange for bribes to supplement their salaries, which are worth little more than £100 a month.
Since the collapse of Saddam Hussein's regime last year, security experts have identified Iraq's long, poorly guarded borders as one of the greatest challenges in rebuilding the country. The foreign affairs committee of the House of Commons earlier this year warned that the insurgents, including terrorists affiliated to al-Qaeda, have been able to enter Iraq from neighbouring states. The reach of foreign-backed groups even extends as far as Baghdad, where the Iranian-linked Badr Brigade is being blamed for a campaign of bombings aimed at shops selling Western music, alcohol and women's beauty products.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: tipper ||
09/13/2004 1:13:05 AM ||
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#1
Now I can't get the picture of Mart Feldman out of my head...
#7
Mr. Left: Get ready for the draft y'all. It's coming right after the national election.
With the kind of casualties (2 a day, compared with 24 a day in Vietnam) we're sustaining in Iraq? Mr. Left is out of his depth - he needs to go back to telling us how we'll be better off by having liberals in government who'll take money from us and give it to other people.
The broken and burned bodies of children had just been pulled from the wreckage of a small-town school. All Russia was in mourning. And President Vladimir Putin was quietly furious. Over tea and cakes at his country retreat, he kept a group of visitors past midnight last week, intent on making them understand why the long-running war in Chechnya had triggered the bloodbath in nearby Beslan. The war was not his fault, he said, but the failure of "weak leaders" in the 1990s and mistakes that "I would not have made." "No one," he added insistently, "can blame us for inflexibility with the people of Chechnya."
For Putin, Chechnya has become a trap he cannot escape. In 1999, he promised Russians a two-week war that would crush the separatist enemy. Instead, he has given them an endless struggle that haunts his presidency, a guerrilla conflict generating a wave of terrorism that has killed about 450 people in the last month and 1,000 over two years. In private, according to people who have spoken with him, the normally cool former KGB officer rails in frustration at his inability to halt the violence and responds with seething anger to those who question his approach. While he portrays his policy as flexible, a review of the last five years shows that Putin never really wavered from the tough, no-compromise course he set in 1999 as prime minister when he vowed to "wipe them out in the outhouse." Every time he flirted with new approaches, according to interviews with politicians, analysts and presidential advisers, Putin would turn back to the same formula.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
09/13/2004 12:50:34 AM ||
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#1
Edit for length, please - even if it is a WaPo registration required article..
Other than that, looks like the WaPo is sharpening its knives for Putin.
#2
I can't help but think that even if a peaceful solution is reached, that will only clear the field for the Islamo-fascists to take over Chechnya.
Posted by: V is for Victory ||
09/13/2004 8:27 Comments ||
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#3
well, V, it certainly is a risk. There will be needed a huge effort from the international community to avoid that, I reckon..After the first war, there was an evolution towards an Islamo-facist regime, yet only because some of these warlords were really out of hand. The majority of the Chechens really doesn't want a Islamofacist republic..But it's the ones with armes who mostly end up in charge.. Basayev is a threat a in that respect..It will never be possible to (re)integrete him into the political process.. Maschadov will not be the exponent of the Wahhabist, Islamofacists though. He's moderate, just like the vast majority of Chechens.. But the 20% of extremist might pose a problem, indeed.
#4
Looks like WAPO (and the MSM) is rewarding their allies the terrorists for their kidnapping, murder, and rape of children. It appears that this is blaming Putin (exactly what the terrorists want) for what happened and letting the terrorists off scot-free. It doesn't even call them 'terrorists'.
While there are problems in Chechnya and Policy probably needs to be changed - the policy is not the main, sole, reason for the bloodbath as this article seems to indicate.
#7
lyot - I know you don't really want an honest answer, you're just being your usual disingenuous onanistic trollish self.
Simple: Will to Win + Required Resources = win.
The Will to Win component just went up in response to Beslan, no? Before that, I would have granted that Russia had let Chechnya become a quagmire. But the balance just changed dramatically. Reassess and decide for yourself.
Maybe they will, indeed, "Do the Euro": throw up their hands and cower in the face of the Islamofascist challenge, and try to negotiate with people who behead the helpless and shoot children. Maybe not. We'll see how the change in the will of Putin and the Russian people affects the equation. Even a jackoff like you will admit that Russia could wipe them off the face of the planet in a matter of a few hours. That is, after all, merely a matter of will for Russia.
#8
Before you speak of the 'Will to win', you better start acknowledging the dire state of the Russian armed forces (army, FSB, Chechen police). They sell their weapons and take bribes.. briefly put, there's much more 'will to win' on the Chechen side..No matter what Putin wants, it's the armed forces who are not 'up to par'..It's the Chechens who are blowing themselves up (and it only started a couple of years ago)..Face it, the will on their side is bigger then on the Russian side.. Beslan will not change that. And even if the Russians can wipe them out in a second, that's not what they are gonna do..
#9
The armed forces are a resource issue, which can be address where the will exists. The ills of Russia are, indeed, deep and the list is long.
We'll see what Putin does. He has enormous authority. Given my druthers, I'd dump him in a heartbeat, since he's demonstrated that he can be bought, but he's there and the Russians are stuck with him... for the moment.
Nothing is static. 3-5 years on, if the willful Chechens keep up their attacks and barbarism (not that they are the only ones displaying such behavior), who knows who and what they will be facing then. You don't know what the Russians will do, within the list of things they are capable of doing, along the way. You sure as hell don't know what they will do tomorrow - Basayev may yet push them to, and over, the brink. He seems bent upon it, in fact.
The recent terrorist attacks caused a spike in assaults on dark-skinned people from the Caucasus region and elsewhere last week, human rights activists said. Decorated former test pilot Magomed Tolboyev said Friday that he was assaulted by police officers during a document check near the Vykhino metro station. The officers said he had a Chechen-sounding last name, he said. In Yekaterinburg, gangs of young people attacked three Armenian and Azeri cafes, killing one person and injuring two, police said.
Authorities have blamed the downing of two planes, the explosion near a Moscow metro station and the Beslan school siege on Chechen, Ingush and Arab fighters and suicide bombers. Dark-skinned people have in recent years increasingly been the targets of racially motivated attacks -- attacks that police usually write off as hooliganism. But the increase over the past week can only be attributed to the terror attacks, said Alexander Brod, director of the Moscow Bureau for Human Rights. "Anti-Caucasian sentiments always get stronger after terrorist acts," Brod said. "People blame everyone in the Caucasus. This is the stereotype in people's minds. Unfortunately, the authorities don't do a good job explaining that terrorism doesn't have a nationality," he said.
Tolboyev, an assistant to State Duma Deputy Viktor Semyonov and a native of Dagestan, said two police sergeants stopped him to check his papers Thursday near Vykhino in Moscow's southern outskirts. He showed them his Duma ID and told them that he had been decorated with the title Hero of Russia, which he received for his participation in the Soviet space shuttle program, Interfax reported. The officers took the ID. When Tolboyev attempted to get it back, one of the officers went behind him, put his arm around his neck and began to strangle him, Tolboyev said. "My throat still aches, and I haven't been able to swallow for two days," he said, Interfax reported. Asked by telephone Friday why the officers had confronted him, Tolboyev said, "I don't know. Maybe they didn't like something about me."
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
09/13/2004 12:44:11 AM ||
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I guess Russia does not have organizations like CAIR, Defamation league, etc that will scream bloody murder everytime a foreigner gets stared at a little bit too long here.
Where is the US Press on this? CNN, NY Times, anybody?
By the way, I am not condoning these assaults in any way, shape or form. I am just curious as to why news like the above, from other countries, do not make the front page of newspapers here but the few assaults on muslims after Sept 11th were 24/7.
#2
Because, as was finally made very plain to me this weekend by loonie leftie friend it is only Americans that are to be despised and hated.
What others do, no matter how vile, do nopt support that point of view and is therefore ignored.
It's a simple as that.
Posted by: Michael ||
09/13/2004 15:34 Comments ||
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#3
Because, as was finally made very plain to me this weekend by a loonie leftie friend, it is only Americans that are to be despised and hated. I am not sure why and he cannot explain it as his hate keeps getting in the way.
What others do, no matter how vile, do not support that point of view and is therefore ignored as useless information
Hard to believe, but it's really as simple as that.
Posted by: Michael ||
09/13/2004 15:39 Comments ||
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Algeria is in talks with Chad's government to extradite a leading Islamic militant linked to al Qaeda to face trial, Interior Minister Noureddine Zerhouni said in comments published on Sunday. The talks are seen as a last resort after a breakdown of contacts between Algeria and Chadian rebels holding the militant, Amari Saifi, who is also wanted in Germany for the kidnap of 32 European tourists in the Sahara desert last year. "He must face trial and we are in contact with the government of Chad (to achieve this)," Zerhouni said in remarks published in the government-backed newspaper El Moudjahid. "But he is of lesser interest now in terms of the anti-terrorist fight because he has been out of the country for a year," said Zerhouni.
Passed his expiration date.
Isn't that the day following his funeral?
A spokesman for the rebel Movement for Democracy and Justice in Chad (MDJT), fighting Chadian authorities, said talks between Algeria and the government were a waste of time. "The GSPC members are not being held by the government but by the MDJT. So I don't see how this will solve the problem," said Abubakar Rajab, a MDJT spokesman based in France. "We won't negotiate with the Chadian government," he said. Chadian rebels warned on Friday they would soon be forced to decide the fate of the GSPC members unless Algeria picked them up. It said they had tried without success to get Saifi and his followers turned over to Algerian authorities. Security experts say the handover has been delayed because the Chad government disapproved of any direct contacts between Algeria and the MDJT. "Algeria has hit a wall and the last resort seems to be to try to pressure Chadian authorities to do something," said an Algerian security analyst, who declined to be named. "This might force other parties, like Germany, to try to help."
We told them to put him up for sale on Ebay, but did they listen?
"You mean I was m-m-m-marked down?"
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
09/13/2004 12:36:54 AM ||
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Iraq's interim Prime Minister, Iyad Allawi, has said elections must go ahead as planned in January even if violence stops some Iraqis from voting. In an interview with UK newspapers, he conceded that some of the worst-hit towns may be unable to hold a vote. But he said it was important that the political process should continue.
Those who fight get left behind.
Despite the continuing violence, Mr Allawi said the aim was for the whole country to be involved in the direct elections set for next January. "If, for any reason, 300,000 people cannot vote because terrorists decide so - and this is imposing a very big if - then frankly 300,000 people is not going to alter 25 million people voting," Mr Allawi told The Times and Guardian newspapers. "There are problems, yes. But to the point that we can't conduct an election? I don't think so." In an interview on Sunday, US Secretary of State Colin Powell said he was confident that the elections for next year could still be held on time - though he gave no further details on the plan to end the violence. "This is not the time to get weak in the knees or faint about it, but to drive on and finish the work that we started," he told NBC television.
Yep, keep pushing democracy.
Posted by: Steve White ||
09/13/2004 12:03:47 AM ||
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#1
Translation:
Sadr City, Fallujah and Samarra and the other Islamofascist dont get to vote unless they let the government in and kick Sadr and Zarqawi's boys out.
Russia has the right to carry out pre-emptive strikes on militant bases abroad, Russia's defense minister said Sunday, citing the school hostage crisis. He said Moscow and the United States see eye to eye on fighting terrorism. Sergei Ivanov did not say what countries might be possible targets for a strike, but Russian officials in the past have said Chechen separatists have bases in nearby Georgia, and Moscow has had friction with that country's pro-U.S. government over the issue.
If I was living in the Pantisi Gorge, I'd be filling out change-of-address cards right now.
Posted by: Steve White ||
09/13/2004 12:00:00 AM ||
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#1
Putin is such a cynical dirtbag. With him, all roads lead to territorial expansion. Instead of targeting Chechen exiles fund-raising in the Arab countries, he's going after Georgian territory. Typical. I bet if that doesn't do the trick, he'll go after the rest of Georgia.
#4
The Panski gorge keeps turning up like a bad penny. Georgia has made no real effort of gaining control and forcing out the terrorist that are there. I wouldn't be supprised to find out George Sorros is funneling money into the gorge and Chechen territory beyond.
#6
YES RUSSIA HAS THE RIGHT!
The American Committee for Peace in Chechnya (ACPC), which includes Pentagon supremo Richard Perle
[SHOULD BE THE FIRST] The ACPC includes many leaders of the neo-conservative think-tank, Project for the New American Century (PNAC), which advocates American domination of the world.
ACPC members who are also in the pro-Israeli PNAC include Elliott Abrams, head of Middle East affairs at the National Security Council; Elliot Cohen of the Pentagon's Defence Policy Board; Frank Gaffney, president of the conservative Centre for Security Policy; Robert Kagan and William Kristol of The Weekly Standard, the house journal of Washington neo-cons, and former CIA director James Woolsey. Former Reagan defence secretary Caspar Weinberger is also in the ACPC.
ACPC executive director Glen Howard said the continuation of the "brutalising tactics" of Russian forces would only lead to "the resistance employing more brutal tactics" like the assault on School Number One in Beslan. He claimed one of the so-called "Black Widows" decided to become a suicide bomber after being forced to watch Russian troops "boil her three-year-old child alive".
"This is a very brutal war," he said. "There have been knocks in the night, people have disappeared. It's an endless cycle of violence in which everyone has lost their sanity. It is not surprising the Chechens have resorted to the same level of violence."
Howard said Putin comparing Osama bin Laden to the leaders of the Chechen resistance was "ridiculous". Moscow has put a $10 million bounty on the heads of two Chechen leaders ñ the extremist and al-Qaeda connected commander Shamil Basayev, and the more moderate, one-time democratically elected Chechen President Aslan Maskhadov.
Basayev, according to the Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov, directed the hostage-taking raid in Beslan. As a young Islamist extremist Basayev was trained in Jihadist tactics by fundamentalists in Afghanistan. Many Chechens have fought in Afghanistan and many fundamentalist Arabs have fought in Chechnya.
The nurturing of Chechen fighters against Russia recalls America's support for the Mujahideen in Afghanistan ñ an act that went on to spawn al-Qaeda and the Taliban.
"What would have happened if Bosnia had been ignored five years ago by the rest of the world in the way Chechnya has been ignored?" asked Howard. "They might have taken to taking over schools as well.
"Everyone is ignoring the nationalist aspirations of the Chechens. This is not about terrorism but about ethnic nationalism." Howard said Russia was more "morally culpable" than Chechen fighters because of the atrocities its forces have committed.
Howard said hardliners like Richard Perle were backing Chechnya as they "understood what it feels like to be under the Russian yolk". Some critics believe the support for the Chechens may be a cold war hangover or part of a policy to keep Russia weak through bloodletting in the Caucuses.
"The al-Qaeda link [to the Chechen conflict] is overstated," said Howard. "Russia plays that up to show that it is part of the war on terror. There are some Arabs there but only a handful ñ this is a 400-year national struggle between the Russians and the Chechens."
According to Howard, due to the vast energy resources in the Caucuses, the West, which is heavily dependent on foreign energy, has strategic interests in the area to which it cannot afford to turn a blind eye.
#7
I don't give a damm what ACPC thinks. I also don't give a damm what PNAC thinks. I can think for my self. If there is one Arab in Chechnya thats to many. I also don't give a damm about any 400 year struggle. I do give a damm about islamo-facists and baby killers.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
09/13/2004 10:11 Comments ||
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#15
times change, patience wears thin. Nobody but the terrorists are really fighting yet. When you start to see the types of body count that you saw in past wars, then you know that the real fighting has begun. Right now we are just doing "police actions". Real war is about survival and knows no bounds.
Posted by: B ||
09/13/2004 10:22 Comments ||
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#16
I will grant Putin filling a strategic gap. That is, while the US has been sorely oppressing the bad guys in most of the world, it has neglected a lot of troublemakers in the old "Soviet sphere", that need to be policed up.
Having said that, I again hope that after Russia cleans up some of these messes, they go after the Mullahs and Imams who instigate this crapola. If you can cool the jets of hundreds or thousands by taking down a dozen Mahdi- and Sultan-wannabees in every country that has them, instead of trying to kill every damn inspired hothead you meet, you really do save a lot of time, effort and energy.
Any damn fool can carry an RPG, but damn few can rally the troops.
#17
The body count in Chechenya is hardly trivial.
Nuance is knowing *when* you have to use a sledgehammer and when you have to use a screwdriver instead. It doesn't mean one has to abandon use of the sledgehammer entirely.
#24
FG: that sentence made absolutely no sense...try again?
The Russians used Shamil Basayev, the Chechen terrorist chief, to help slice away Abkhazia from Georgia. I guess it was a convenient alliance at the time, but why was this even necessary? What was Russia doing trying to break up a tiny state (Georgia) of no particular importance on its borders? This is why I don't trust Putin - his lust for the territory of the former Soviet Republics overrides all. The aftermath of Beslan is being used to expand Russia's territory rather than fight terrorists.
#25
The aftermath of Beslan is being used to expand Russia's territory rather than fight terrorists.
Well, you know ZF, after the Belsan massacre, it just garners a big yawn from me. Just like that cleric who got gunned down today. Yawn. It's a pity.
There so many themes for a pity parties these days and so little time. Maybe the AQ bigs should have considered the green light they were giving Putin and Uncle Same to fight back, before they fell the WTC and shot children in the back.
As for me, I'm suffering from pity overload for people who can't manage to root out "terrorists" in their midst.
#26
A6417: As for me, I'm suffering from pity overload for people who can't manage to root out "terrorists" in their midst.
The issue isn't whether Russia has the right to root out terrorists (it does); it's whether the Russians are lying about Chechen terrorist activity in Georgia. I think the Chechen terrorist movement is home-grown. In any event, we'll find out soon, if Russia makes a push into Georgia. If terrorist attacks die down, then Georgia provided sanctuary for the Chechen. If they don't die down, then we know the Russians were either mistaken, or they weren't telling the truth.
#28
ZF - I not exactly disagreeing with your point - I'm just saying that if that's what the Russians always intended to do - then the Georgians - by not taking a firm enough stand against terrorists - will now find they've made the job a whole lot easier for the Russians. The outrage of Belsan will give them plenty of cover.
That's what happens when you lose the moral high ground by not rooting out the terrorists. Not sure there is much to disagree with me on this here.
#31
Anonymous> You made a claim. That the Georgians have not taken a firm stand against terrorists.
You have the right to refuse to back it up and pretend you are doing so for personal reasons. I have the right to assume that the actual reason you aren't backing it up is because you can't.
Either way, you are irrelevant to me -- the truthfulness or falsehood of your claim is the only thing that I'm interested in.
#33
Aris, you live in a world of the past. Your war of "words" is cute and clever - but meaningless.
Might and deeds matter now. Blather on. It no longer matters whether Georgians have taken a "firm stand against terrorists". What matters is what damage Russia is capable of inflicting against those who oppose them. Belsan gave them cover to act - it doesn't matter how or why.
#34
Yeah, right now you are "either with the Russians or against them", right? Sanity be damned. Right and Wrong be damned. It's futile even to discuss whether the claims about Georgian support for terrorists are true or not. The only thing that matters is that Russia wants Georgian territory so Georgia must go to hell.
Heil Putin, you people granting Sudetenland to the new Fuhrer.
I'm against the Russians. And I'm against the Islamofascists. The Beslan massacre may have given Russia cover to conquer a peaceful Georgia but that "cover" is only adequate to the fascists and genocide-supporters among us; it has not fallen on me yet.
#39
The EU is a mighty bulwark against the returning encroachment of eastern fascism -- I know for a fact that the EU is pretty much the only thing that stopped Greece from fully joining a neofascist Orthodox axis of Russia-Serbia-Greece in the early 90s. And I believe the EU is now the only thing that (ever so slowly) moves Serbia away from Russia and towards the West.
But the EU has no army, and no common defense treaty yet. Until the constitution gets ratified the veto and multiplicity of voices makes it as externally weak as can be, and even after its ratification the situation improves but a mere iota.
A mighty bulwark against encroaching fascism in the political life of its member states and neighbours. But not against the *armies* of a fascist power. And certainly not in a position to militarily help a third nation. Not yet. Possibly not for a very long while.
The EU, Shipman, simply ensured that you won't be seeing Greek and Serb troops out there alongside the Russians, killing the Georgians.
#41
Yeah, I know the constitution has a slim chance of passing -- though it's not the French I'm worried about: If the French (and Germans) accepted to drop their currency, I fail to see what's in the constitution that will make them reject it now. I heard the two biggest French parties will be in favour of Yes for example.
Even if the constitution doesn't make it as a whole, some of its individual provisions(abolishing the rotating presidency, creating the position of Foreign Minister, removing some of the vetos) might in time be passed individually with different treaty amendments. But we'll see.
#42
What happens if a Euro-cuntry wants to get out of the EU once it has Joined, will be the Abraham Linclone that will save the Sanctity of the Union, Will Member States be allowed to leave this Perfect Union, Unless it is a trouble State I.e. Turkey or Romania, Serbia etc. I doubt So, And will Poland give up its prized F-16s for the crappy euro-fighter that costs more than its worth. This EU reeks of Collectivism brought on by merciless French Socialism. and i hope it fails...............
#45
TGA, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a required majority to approve a secession? So, for instance, if Czechs have only 2% of vote and the rest of the EU sez no f#@king way, they would be screwed. Notice or not.
#46
Zarathustra, no, according to the (as yet unratified) constitution, whether a country will secede from the EU or not is entirely up to the country itself. Nobody can stop it.
The most that the rest of the EU can do is negotiate exit terms -- and if negotiations collapse and no agreement can be reached, the member state simply ceases to be an EU member after a certain period of time passes (two years I think?).
#47
Sorry for that then, i just know that our country has had an issue such as that and i wanted to know beforehand, cause it was understood that u could leave when u joined here and history does repeat itself
#48
Zarathustra, no. There is a certain timeframe for mandatory discussions and efforts to settle the matter. If no agreement is reached, the respective country can leave unilaterally.
Who really wants to leave can't and won't be stopped. It's obvious that the UK would be the first candidate to leave. My take is, they won't.
#50
Ok I get u but if u enter into the eu and it does it not have a central govenment that controls what the member states can do or not do How can u enforce the rules of the EU? A federation of States has been proven not to be able to survive without a central authority, example the U.S. under the articles of confederation, the Southern Confederacy , and now aparently the Russian Confederacy... I just dont get the reasoning that this one will work... i guess only time will tell good luck to ya
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
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The broken and burned bodies of children had just been pulled from the wreckage of a small-town school. All Russia was in mourning. And President Vladimir Putin was quietly furious. Over tea and cakes at his country retreat, he kept a group of visitors past midnight last week, intent on making them understand why the long-running war in Chechnya had triggered the bloodbath in nearby Beslan. The war was not his fault, he said, but the failure of "weak leaders" in the 1990s and mistakes that "I would not have made." "No one," he added insistently, "can blame us for inflexibility with the people of Chechnya." 
